Was I the only one shocked during the big reveal?

[BatLobsterRises]

Well, of course it's not the only reason. There are any number of reasons one could like and dislike the movie, especially when it comes to a character everyone has their own strongly formed conceptions and opinions about. I just think some have placed a seemingly disproportionate amount of importance on the twist, as if the whole film somehow falls apart as a result of that particular aspect not being a total surprise, or that Nolan's primary goal with the character was to say "gotcha!" to the audience. I just can't agree with that when it seems so telegraphed to the point where I feel Nolan wanted people to put it together beforehand, or at least have a healthy suspicion of Tate.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by kvz5

Was knowing the "twist" (Miranda's reveal) the root of people's issues with the movie though? It might be part of the lack of enjoyment for some but I doubt that it's the only reason. Personally, the things I enjoyed and din't enjoy with the movie still remain the same regardless if I knew the twist beforehand or not. My issues with the movie is way beyond that twist.

It's more than just the Talia thing, it's the genuine lack of surprise and intrigue throughout the movie, it's the most un-Nolan like Nolan movie to date. We all knew Dent would become Two-Face in TDK, but the journey to that moment was filled with twists and turns. Things in Rises just seem to happen.

[Doc Samson]

Originally Posted by jmc

It's more than just the Talia thing, it's the genuine lack of surprise and intrigue throughout the movie, it's the most un-Nolan like Nolan movie to date. We all knew Dent would become Two-Face in TDK, but the journey to that moment was filled with twists and turns. Things in Rises just seem to happen.

Exactly. Talia is just the most prominent situation, but from Blake, to the injury, to the fake death, almost every single scene made to be shocking or suspenseful was already anticipated.

[Kahran Ramsus]

Originally Posted by Doc Samson

Exactly. Talia is just the most prominent situation, but from Blake, to the injury, to the fake death, almost every single scene made to be shocking or suspenseful was already anticipated.

The same was true for TDK though. Pretty much everybody expected Dent to become Two-Face, for Joker to betray the mob, for Rachel to be worm food, for Gordon to not really be dead, etc. It wasn't any more surprising than TDKR.

[Excelsior.]

1. Dent's impending transformation is well known to even the most casual of geeks. But his role beyond that (and the shocking fact of his death) was completely unknown.

2. Everybody had a hunch that Rachel would die but the way Nolan kills her off so abruptly definitely shocked people.

3. One may have known subconsciously that Gordon is alive but the transport chase scene does a masterful job of letting you divert your attention thoroughly from Gordon (ironic since he was there the whole time).

It's the execution of those potentially predictable plot points that made The Dark Knight seem fresher than it really was.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus

The same was true for TDK though. Pretty much everybody expected Dent to become Two-Face, for Joker to betray the mob, for Rachel to be worm food, for Gordon to not really be dead, etc. It wasn't any more surprising than TDKR.

It's about the journey to those events, Two-Face was a given, the difference is when Harvey turned it sucked because we had an emotional investment in the character. There was no such investment in Talia.

[BatLobsterRises]

The emotional investment was all centered around Bruce in TDKR. I don't think we're supposed to be upset because Miranda isn't the great gal she was pretending to be, we care because it sucks that Bruce was deceived and betrayed by someone he made the difficult move of placing his trust in, when he's a guy with trust issues to begin with. It's the salt in the wound to know he made the conscious decision to put her in charge of Wayne Enterprises and played right into the League's hands.

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by Doc Samson

Which is exactly why I think a lot of hardcore fans don't like TDKR as much as more general fans do. I've been saying this from the time the movie came out, because it was one of my initial issues with it.

I kept myself away from this site but not before I saw the spy pics of Marion, not to mention Liam Neeson getting spotted on set which only lends credence to who she really was (and further spoiling the Ras cameo in and of itself)

I also read some of the Blake theories, that after some thought, made sense. Obviously we also know what Bane's original purpose was in the comics, so even when that happened it was less of a shock to us then to someone who has no idea who Bane is. Even the fake death is reminiscent of Dark Knight Returns, and something we speculated about months prior.

Going into a movie with all that swirling in your head ultimately just gives everything much less of an impact and also undermines Nolan's "twists" that are his usual MO. Just about every pivotal scene or moment in TDKR is robbed of surprise & suspense if you're any type of hardcore Batman fan.

This happens with all media. Even a show like Breaking Bad. If you discuss it to death in a forum, odds are SOMEBODY is going to nail the basic plot lines. But the beauty of art is in the details, and no matter how hard you try those will always be the Nolan's alone. I don't think they were trying to fool comic lovers (they deliberately used huge ideas from them as influence in each film), they were trying to bring it all together in a more meaningful/thematically relevant and interesting new way.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

1. Dent's impending transformation is well known to even the most casual of geeks. But his role beyond that (and the shocking fact of his death) was completely unknown.

2. Everybody had a hunch that Rachel would die but the way Nolan kills her off so abruptly definitely shocked people.

3. One may have known subconsciously that Gordon is alive but the transport chase scene does a masterful job of letting you divert your attention thoroughly from Gordon (ironic since he was there the whole time).

It's the execution of those potentially predictable plot points that made The Dark Knight seem fresher than it really was.

Originally Posted by jmc

It's about the journey to those events, Two-Face was a given, the difference is when Harvey turned it sucked because we had an emotional investment in the character. There was no such investment in Talia.

Exactly

I didn't give a damn about the Tate betrayal either, because Bruce had like 7 minutes of boring screen time with Tate before this. Their sex scene was so random, didn't feel natural, and there was no chemistry to it.

[Kahran Ramsus]

Originally Posted by jmc

It's about the journey to those events, Two-Face was a given, the difference is when Harvey turned it sucked because we had an emotional investment in the character. There was no such investment in Talia.

Yes, but we were talking about how predictable things were. Not the character development.

[Caped Crusader]

Even following TDKR so closely I felt like she was Talia.. BUT seeing TDKR for the first time I was starting to have doubt as the movie went on and I was beginning to think that she was just Miranda Tate who turns bad and was apart of the LOS. Then when she stabbed Batman and revealed her true self I was in awe & shocked. Loved it

[BatLobsterRises]

I liked Tate better as a love interest than Rachel. She might have been a bit generic, but she was a hell of a lot less annoying. And Bruce and Rachel didn't have anything even remotely resembling a sexual attraction between them. At least Tate had that exotic quality to her.

[Anno_Domini]

So I watched TDKR once again last night and even though I wasn't shocked at Talia revealing herself, I still find that scene to be one of the best in the film.

Plus, as a comic book fan and what not...who wouldn't have deduced that the child wasn't Bane since Ra's has a daughter named Talia in the comics anyways?

[MagnarTheGreat]

"Well, they're European"

"Natascha...are you the prima..." "...Prima ballerina for the Moscow Ballet."

And then Miranda/Talia in TDKR.

They've always paired playboy Bruce with foreign women at one point or another. But the newest one was a citizen.

[jmc]

Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus

Yes, but we were talking about how predictable things were. Not the character development.

The two go hand in hand. Without a journey of some description all you're left with is an empty reveal at the end that has no emotional weight whatsoever. At no point throughout this film was there ever an attempt to throw us of the scent, it was clear from the moment Ra's name was dropped that she would be Talia, but there was no attempted for that reveal to actually mean something. I can't feel Bruce's pain because the two of them never had a connection in the first place.

[OnTheAir]

I was heavily spoiled for this movie, having spent a lot of time on this and other sites/forums. I saw the pics of Marion in her LOS garb, and all of the speculation before and after about her being Talia, so I certainly wasn't surprised.

[Bane Cook]

I wasn't because I followed this site too much before the release LOL

[Doc Samson]

Originally Posted by Kahran Ramsus

Yes, but we were talking about how predictable things were. Not the character development.

Even if that's the case, the ending of TDK was completely left field and I'm almost certain nobody saw that coming. I don't even think people expected Dent's full arc to be in TDK, let alone him dying. I definitely didn't anticipate that. And even though we thought Rachel would die, it still wasn't a given, and when it did happen, it was shocking in it's abrupt nature.

In contrast, while nothing in TDKR I found particularly shocking, on subsequent viewings, I appreciate it more for the execution and thematic elements that tie the trilogy together.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Doc Samson

In contrast, while nothing in TDKR I found particularly shocking, on subsequent viewings, I appreciate it more for the execution and thematic elements that tie the trilogy together.

Agreed. TDKR is a movie where you can revel in how it emotionally and thematically fulfills the journey that began with the first two films.

And I do think most of the major beats were considered and brought up, if not outright figured out for both TDK and Rises. Probably not the ending for TDK, but for Rises everyone had guesses but there was no consensus. I think we knew it pretty much came down to:

Batman dies/Bruce lives (fakes Batman's death)
Bruce really dies/Batman lives on (possibly via Blake)
Bruce lives/Batman lives on (the "rooftop" ending)
and of course the less popular "Gotham gets nuked" ending

It was a huge debate. But I don't think too many had guessed an ending where Bruce fakes the death of both Wayne and Batman while passing the mantle to Blake. Or him turning Wayne Manor into an orphanage in his parents' name, the very last scene we see of him, etc. It was the manner that it all unfolded in that I found hugely cathartic. I will say, I was worried that a "he died...but wait he didn't!" moment could be cliche and predictable, but the way those final minutes unfold is just beautiful. That shot in the cafe was just a euphoric moment, and such a huge relief. I'll never forget the feeling I had when I saw Bruce's smiling face on the IMAX. It is without a doubt the most straight up happy ending to a Nolan film to date, and it was a damn hard-earned one.

The only thing I can say I personally called for the ending was a Bat-monument. All my other theories were just dancing around what the real ending was. Close, but not quite on the mark.

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

I never understood why people theorize about future movies. Why spoil yourself...?

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by FeedOnATreeFrog

I never understood why people theorize about future movies. Why spoil yourself...?

Also, it just sets you up for disappointment when you think of an idea you think might be superior but doesn't get explored.

[BatLobsterRises]

The key to speculation is not getting too attached to any one idea. Fans waiting 4 years to a follow up to one of their favorite movies are invariably going to speculate, because let's face it- sometimes it gets boring waiting and it's a fun way to pass the time. Following the development of this series has been extremely addictive. But you gotta keep it all in perspective. On some level you need to be able to walk in on opening night and put everything you thought about the movie out of your mind and just be prepared for anything.

[bullets]

Originally Posted by jacobed

Just about everyone in my theater was shocked. A guy screamed out holy **** when it happened

I wish I was there for that reaction.

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

The key to speculation is not getting too attached to any one idea. Fans waiting 4 years to a follow up to one of their favorite movies are invariably going to speculate, because let's face it- sometimes it gets boring waiting and it's a fun way to pass the time. Following the development of this series has been extremely addictive. But you gotta keep it all in perspective. On some level you need to be able to walk in on opening night and put everything you thought about the movie out of your mind and just be prepared for anything.

Indeed. I followed the development of BB and TDK very closely, and it didn't exactly ruin the experience, but I DID know what to expect, without doing too much speculation. So for TDKR I specifically avoided this forum once set pics started showing up so I didn't get too spoiled. Really made me enjoy the movie more I think.

[bullets]

I tried not to spoil myself , but some stuff was to hard to resist. I didn't know Marion was playing Talia , but I did see Bane connected to LOS. Once that was revealed I knew there was a strong chance of seeing Talia.