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Old 01-09-2013, 03:03 PM   #326
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Default Re: Things you noticed after multiple viewings on DVD / BluRay.

I think Juno Temple's character was just supposed to be the "turning point" for Selina, in terms of making her start to develop into a less selfish person via that "This is someone's home" sequence.

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Old 01-09-2013, 03:11 PM   #327
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Default Re: Things you noticed after multiple viewings on DVD / BluRay.

That was a horrendous writing low point of the film. It's the purest violation of the show don't tell rule. The entire turning point of her arc is reduced to a single line.

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Old 01-09-2013, 03:14 PM   #328
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That was a horrendous writing low point of the film. It's the purest violation of the show don't tell rule. The entire turning point of her arc is reduced to a single line.
To be fair, they did show it before they spelled it out, during the montage. You can see how tepid and unsure she is while everyone is partying in the mansion. That line just cemented it.

I also think her real turning point came prior to that, in her reaction to the Bane beatdown of Batman. She realized she had aided a true monster.

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Old 01-09-2013, 03:31 PM   #329
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Default Re: Things you noticed after multiple viewings on DVD / BluRay.

She has one shot in the montage which is dominated by her in the foreground of the frame while Jen and a few others are celebrating with champagne behind her. She looked somber to what was happening as opposed to everybody else in the frame, but it ultimately passes by way too quickly and dominated by the rest of the montage and the implications of it in a wider context for me to truly invest in her change.

That is a big problem of Nolan for me. He likes to tell huge chunks of his story in montages which often serve to truncate important elements of character and story. As in, I would like to see some scenes that he devotes a single shot to become full blown scenes, specially ones that involve character. I think one elaborate scene with Selina and the rich couldn't have heart.

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Old 01-09-2013, 03:40 PM   #330
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She has one shot in the montage which is dominated by her in the foreground of the frame while Jen and a few others are celebrating with champagne behind her. She looked somber to what was happening as opposed to everybody else in the frame, but it ultimately passes by way too quickly and dominated by the rest of the montage and the implications of it in a wider context for me to truly invest in her change.

That is a big problem of Nolan for me. He likes to tell huge chunks of his story in montages which often serve to truncate important elements of character and story. As in, I would like to see some scenes that he devotes a single shot to become full blown scenes, specially ones that involve character. I think one elaborate scene with Selina and the rich couldn't have heart.
I remember a friend of mine having a similar issue with BB like you have with that Selina moment. It was something to do with how in Begins, Ras was asking Bruce about if he feels guilty about the murder of his parents or something, and Bruce says his anger outweighs his guilt. Ras immediately replies "Come." and they continue the montage and my friend was like "Whoa, timeout. Timeout, back it up. That was a deep moment and we're running right through it." I think it was in between a montage as well.

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Old 01-09-2013, 03:43 PM   #331
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Default Re: Things you noticed after multiple viewings on DVD / BluRay.

Nolan is often allergic to letting shots play out. I would've loved a few more seconds of the back breaking shot. I distinctly remember how elated I was seeing Bane pick Bats up the first time I saw it, anticipating what was to come, and hoping to relish in (in a fanboyish way, I am not a sadist) it's glory, but Nolan completely ruins the effect by cutting away almost instantly.

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Old 01-09-2013, 03:51 PM   #332
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I remember a friend of mine having a similar issue with BB like you have with that Selina moment. It was something to do with how in Begins, Ras was asking Bruce about if he feels guilty about the murder of his parents or something, and Bruce says his anger outweighs his guilt. Ras immediately replies "Come." and they continue the montage and my friend was like "Whoa, timeout. Timeout, back it up. That was a deep moment and we're running right through it." I think it was in between a montage as well.
But that scene does expand, it plays into the sword fight on the ice where that notion is explored further.

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Old 01-09-2013, 03:53 PM   #333
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But that scene does expand, it plays into the sword fight on the ice where that notion is explored further.
I think I look at the scene a little differently and not as harshly as him, but I still kinda see where that criticism comes from.

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Old 01-09-2013, 04:04 PM   #334
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Yeah, I don't think the Juno Temple thing or Selena's decision was a flaw, nor do Nolan's montages bother me. It works for the films. Well, at least for me they do, and I think they are used appropriately when I hadn't really thought more character development was necessarily needed, however I will agree that there could have been more of the riots in Gotham, but I'll just blame it to possibly being trimmed down too much (has anyone read the script? Are there more scenes with Bane's Gotham?). I just don't think it's really needed to spend more time on those moments, so I won't truncate it to any "rules of filmmaking" (my rule to filmmaking - there are no rules to filmmaking. What the director wants, he gets, so technically every film is perfect as long as the director is 100% satisfied. it's just a matter of wether or not the audience likes or dislikes it. But hey, that's just my bizarre view on art in general.) Just thought I'd throw that out there, since now there are a lot of people leaving snooty pretentious comments about what film should or shouldn't be or "NOOO NOLAN YOU CAN'T DOOO THAAAT!!!" and it usually boils down to just being a matter of taste. But you know, give a nerd a laptop and they all think they're film critics (kidding).
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But that scene does expand, it plays into the sword fight on the ice where that notion is explored further.
Yep. And that's one of my favorite moments of the film because it is played out so well. My only issue is that there isn't one mention of his parents in TDK.

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Old 01-09-2013, 04:09 PM   #335
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Default Re: Things you noticed after multiple viewings on DVD / BluRay.

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I remember a friend of mine having a similar issue with BB like you have with that Selina moment. It was something to do with how in Begins, Ras was asking Bruce about if he feels guilty about the murder of his parents or something, and Bruce says his anger outweighs his guilt. Ras immediately replies "Come." and they continue the montage and my friend was like "Whoa, timeout. Timeout, back it up. That was a deep moment and we're running right through it." I think it was in between a montage as well.
I think it's fine the way it is. If I recall correctly it follows immediately after the flashbacks of little Bruce seeing his parents get murdered, being conforted by Gordon and then by Alfred following the funeral. So the way I take it is that, in the present day, Bruce has been talking to Ra's about that whole sequence of events for a while before the latter asks him whether or not he still feels responsible for the murder of his parents.

Like soundofyousick says, there's also payoff for that moment in the sword fight scene. Besides, Ra's comes off as the harsh father figure in BB anyway, so it's no wonder he doesn't stop and dwell too much on Bruce's tragedy (well, apart from that scene besides the fire where he mentions his wife). He's more about helping Bruce overcome his grief by tapping into the potential power his anger offers him.

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Old 01-09-2013, 04:10 PM   #336
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I think I look at the scene a little differently and not as harshly as him, but I still kinda see where that criticism comes from.
I can't recall ever having a problem with this in his batman films.

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Yeah, I don't think the Juno Temple thing or Selena's decision was a flaw, nor do Nolan's montages bother me. It works for the films. Well, at least for me they do, and I think they are used appropriately when I hadn't really thought more character development was necessarily needed, however I will agree that there could have been more of the riots in Gotham, but I'll just blame it to possibly being trimmed down too much (has anyone read the script? Are there more scenes with Bane's Gotham?). I just don't think it's really needed to spend more time on those moments, so I won't truncate it to any "rules of filmmaking" (my rule to filmmaking - there are no rules to filmmaking. What the director wants, he gets, so technically every film is perfect as long as the director is 100% satisfied. it's just a matter of wether or not the audience likes or dislikes it. But hey, that's just my bizarre view on art in general.)
That is not a bizarre attitude, it's called, 'You need to know the rules before you can break them.' Salvidor Dali said this about his abstract work, you're only going to be a master of the abstract if you learn the rules of life first.

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Yep. And that's one of my favorite moments of the film because it is played out so well. My only issue is that there isn't one mention of his parents in TDK.
I don't know, in a way it's good that the first movie dealt with that, so then we can get to the rest of the batman mythos, after all we only so many hours to deal with.
It's different from Spider-man, because his actions played a part in Ben's death, as he still had issues to resolve with Aunt May, so they had to reference that in SM2, although they pushed it too far by bringing that back in for the third film.

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Old 01-09-2013, 04:12 PM   #337
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That is not a bizarre attitude, it's called, 'You need to know the rules before you can break them.' Salvidor Dali said this about his abstract work, you're only going to be a master of the abstract if you learn the rules of life first.
I think that's Nolan's M.O. in a nutshell actually. He has such a great knowledge of cinema, and beyond that places such a trust in the audience's intelligence and familiarity with film tropes that he's really able to lean on that as a means to do all sorts of unconventional things.

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Old 01-09-2013, 04:19 PM   #338
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I think that's Nolan's M.O. in a nutshell actually. He has such a great knowledge of cinema, and beyond that places such a trust in the audience's intelligence and familiarity with film tropes that he's really able to lean on that as a means to do all sorts of unconventional things.
Yeah, that is where artists need to get to, in order to have that firm base to anchor them as they experiment, so it's not just a random mess of ideas with no foundation of reality. It's the only way to keep yourself interested and your work from getting stale.

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Old 01-21-2013, 11:54 PM   #339
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Just two SMALL things.

1. Bane's mask makes the strangest noise when he nods at someone in the stock market.

2. The reflection of the camera win Blake asks Wayne "when you started, why the mask?"

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Old 01-26-2013, 07:44 PM   #340
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Things I noticed the first time watching the movie

-the merc telling that one dude to walk a certain way on the ice. Then the merc having a disgusted look when the guy falls in the ice. Maybe that was a cop that went deep undercover as a merc to keep an eye on Bane and the other mercs.

- Bruce dropping the rope down the Pit. I think it was already tied up so maybe the other old prisoners got out but then where would they go?

- That big black guy merc that was asking Blake who the hell he was. really? Blake was walking around in broad daylight and yet the big black dude merc doent even know who Blake is?

- Selina and her little gal pal theif sidekick. The way they kept hanging out with each I think they were bisexual or at least the younger gal was a lesbian or something.

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Old 01-26-2013, 08:04 PM   #341
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Default Re: Things you noticed after multiple viewings on DVD / BluRay.

I noticed a statue of Julius Caesar as Alfred was walking to take his seat in Italy at the end of the film.

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Old 01-26-2013, 09:06 PM   #342
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Default Re: Things you noticed after multiple viewings on DVD / BluRay.

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Just two SMALL things.
1. Bane's mask makes the strangest noise when he nods at someone in the stock market.

2. The reflection of the camera win Blake asks Wayne "when you started, why the mask?"
I raised the volume real high before he nods his head when he makes the noise, it almost sounds like Bane sneezes then nods when one of his men mouths bless you.

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Old 01-26-2013, 09:26 PM   #343
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She has one shot in the montage which is dominated by her in the foreground of the frame while Jen and a few others are celebrating with champagne behind her. She looked somber to what was happening as opposed to everybody else in the frame, but it ultimately passes by way too quickly and dominated by the rest of the montage and the implications of it in a wider context for me to truly invest in her change.

That is a big problem of Nolan for me. He likes to tell huge chunks of his story in montages which often serve to truncate important elements of character and story. As in, I would like to see some scenes that he devotes a single shot to become full blown scenes, specially ones that involve character. I think one elaborate scene with Selina and the rich couldn't have heart.
IMO, that's why your version would have been a bloated mess and bored the audience, and the only reason his version works with this much story to tell. The quickest and simplest way to get a point across is usually the best, and this short sequence does it beautifully without drawing it out. He didn't need an elaborate talky scene, he was able to implant the core ideas and beliefs of selina throughout many scenes and epitomize the lesson very poignantly and efficiently in one shot. This is the art of visual storytelling, which is one of the greatest tools in a director's arsenal.

Nolan never truncates important elements of character and story that serve the main story, but he does in circumstances where being more elaborate is simply a disservice to the main story and risks losing the audience. I guarantee these scenes are extended and were in the rough cuts, but the most efficient story is the best for an audience, especially in a movie this long. What you're describing is self-indulgent and bloating. It's not something the audience needs to understand the situations of the world that play to the principal story, it's repeating information the audience has already gathered, which is a way worse offense than being able to concisely get a point across. In fact, this is one of Nolan's greatest strengths as a director and as a master of visual storytelling. Ie, in BB, you could devote an entire sequence to the stethoscope scene, but he's able to get an entire idea across with a quick, silent edit.

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Old 01-26-2013, 10:44 PM   #344
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A pair of shoes, maybe attached to someone, hanging over Selina's shoulder when she's in that hallway while everyone's celebrating. Its during the montage that plays while Bane gives his speech. Also from the montage, in the scene outside the hotel or penthouse, people are being loaded into cattle trucks.

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Old 01-26-2013, 10:55 PM   #345
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IMO, that's why your version would have been a bloated mess and bored the audience, and the only reason his version works with this much story to tell.
It would be a mess if we go by your mistaken belief that I would simply take what Nolan did and elongate every scene , which I wouldn't just do.

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The quickest and simplest way to get a point across is usually the best
Not when it comes to characterization. Especially crucial characterization that is the start of the turning point of her character. If you are thinking "quick and simple" when it comes to characters, you are not prioritizing the characters. As Nolan has proven not to do so many times. His greatest love is plot. Not character.

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He didn't need an elaborate talky scene
Talky? Who said anything about talky?

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he was able to implant the core ideas and beliefs of selina throughout many scenes and epitomize the lesson very poignantly and efficiently in one shot.
Naturally I disagree. Nolan totally reduced Selina's characterization to a single verbal sentence. That is not efficient or poignant, just bad.

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This is the art of visual storytelling
What visual storytelling? The one line Selina feeds us to signal her change in character?

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which is one of the greatest tools in a director's arsenal.
The greatest, which I really wish Nolan used more.

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Nolan never truncates important elements of character and story that serve the main story, but he does in circumstances where being more elaborate is simply a disservice to the main story and risks losing the audience.
That is a bold faced lie. He entirely skimmed over the plight of the common man in a couple of montages. Now, I've learned to accept this. Nolan ignored the people. Sure. Okay. But him neglecting Selina Kyle's characterization is a bigger issue to me.

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I guarantee these scenes are extended and were in the rough cuts, but the most efficient story is the best for an audience
A hypothetical scene of paramount importance detailing her character in the middle stretch of the scene was in the movie? And he left it in the previous cuts? You do realize this isn't praise for Nolan right?

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What you're describing is self-indulgent and bloating.
A proposed simple, singular, visual, character scene of Selina is self indulgent and bloating? You must hate every single character driven films ever made.

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It's not something the audience needs to understand the situations of the world that play to the principal story
It's not about understanding. Of course we understand. Nolan, via Selina, tells us what is going on in Selina's mind by neat verbal exposition. What is there not to understand? A child would understand.

No. It's about feeling. Feeling her change. Something, according to the more prevalent criticism of Nolan's work, is a problem his films face constantly. His films stir the mind but not the soul, because he hardly lingers on character.

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it's repeating information the audience has already gathered
Repeat? That's the one and only (poorly done) scene of Selina questioning her ideological stance. What repeat?

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In fact, this is one of Nolan's greatest strengths as a director and as a master of visual storytelling.
Thanks for the laugh. Nolan is in no shape, size or form a visual master. He is a master of narrative cinema but he is only competent as an aestheist. Except this film. In this film he isn't a master of anything.

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Ie, in BB, you could devote an entire sequence to the stethoscope scene, but he's able to get an entire idea across with a quick, silent edit.
Why devote an entire scene to the stethoscope? It's designed as a brief flashback. It's for Bruce's arc. Not his pop's. Cause he simply exists in flashbacks. He doesn't need an arc. Selina is a living, breathing character in real time. She is not a flashback. She has her own arc. The two can't be any more different if you tried. I am appalled by the comparison.

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Old 01-26-2013, 11:30 PM   #346
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I'm well aware of the criticisms against Nolan's films as being too cold. But to me, TDKR was easily the most emotionally accessible and had the most heart out of any of his films so far. That's kind of why it's interesting to me that some have been so quick to call it his weakest film. I thought this movie very much did stir the soul. It stirred mine anyway. I really think he's taken amazing strides as a filmmaker from Batman Begins onward.

The fact that Nolan is able to balance an intricate plot, compelling themes, huge action and a human center, all with a very personal and specific touch is what makes him such a money director.

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Old 01-27-2013, 12:04 AM   #347
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I'm well aware of the criticisms against Nolan's films as being too cold. But to me, TDKR was easily the most emotionally accessible and had the most heart out of any of his films so far. That's kind of why it's interesting to me that some have been so quick to call it his weakest film. I thought this movie very much did stir the soul. It stirred mine anyway. I really think he's taken amazing strides as a filmmaker from Batman Begins onward.

The fact that Nolan is able to balance an intricate plot, compelling themes, huge action and a human center, all with a very personal and specific touch is what makes him such a money director.
On top of TDKR being the movie where Nolan achieves the highest emotional resonance, it also feels like Nolan has become a better filmmaker on a technical level. There are things in this movie that I couldn't have imagined him doing his older movies. There are certain angles, editing choices, etc, that scream 'mature'.

However,

It also feels like the movie he cared the least about, as TDKR contains some of his most amateur work. I can't imagine that he regressed in his ability, so I can only chalk it up to effort/care.

In some ways it's his best movie, in other ways it's his worst. But for me, those high highs make it worthwhile, despite all its faults, and it's why I'm so enamoured with the film and still talking about it here today.


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Old 01-27-2013, 12:15 AM   #348
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In the grand scheme of things it does seem like Nolan cared less about TDKR, especially since it feels like he had a "F-it, I'll shoot more in IMAX; even if it means truncating certain plot points in the film" mentality.

Still enjoy the hell out of TDKR though.

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Old 01-27-2013, 12:22 AM   #349
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On top of TDKR being the movie where Nolan achieves the highest emotional resonance, it also feels like Nolan has become a better filmmaker on a technical level. There are things in this movie that I couldn't have imagined him doing his older movies. There are certain angles, editing choices, etc, that scream 'mature'.

However,

It also feels like the movie he cared the least about, as TDKR contains some of his most amateur work. I can't imagine that he regressed in his ability, so I can only chalk it up to effort/care.

In some ways it's his best movie, in other ways it's his worst. But for me, those high highs make it worthwhile, despite all its faults, and it's why I'm so enamoured with the film and still talking about it here today.
I don't really see it that that way, but I suppose there's no way we can truly know. It's hard for me to reconcile a film being overly ambitious (which TDKR was, for better or worse), with him not caring/trying. But for what it's worth,



That doesn't look like a guy who is disinterested in his own film to me. Talk about micromanaging

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Old 01-27-2013, 06:11 AM   #350
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Default Re: Things you noticed after multiple viewings on DVD / BluRay.

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Originally Posted by FeedOnATreeFrog View Post
On top of TDKR being the movie where Nolan achieves the highest emotional resonance, it also feels like Nolan has become a better filmmaker on a technical level. There are things in this movie that I couldn't have imagined him doing his older movies. There are certain angles, editing choices, etc, that scream 'mature'.

However,

It also feels like the movie he cared the least about, as TDKR contains some of his most amateur work. I can't imagine that he regressed in his ability, so I can only chalk it up to effort/care.

In some ways it's his best movie, in other ways it's his worst. But for me, those high highs make it worthwhile, despite all its faults, and it's why I'm so enamoured with the film and still talking about it here today.
He cared the least ? That's such a strange argument , because its so personal. How can anyone say anything remotely like that , if they didn't worked closely with him (maybe you did ).

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