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Old 01-14-2013, 02:10 PM   #126
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

RustyCage, are you arguing that the villain's motives were unclear (require 'fan-fiction') or that they don't make sense or were illogical?

I don't think any fan-fiction is required, as I think the movie makes it pretty clear why they are attacking.

But whether you think their reasons are solid or whatever is debatable I suppose.

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Old 01-14-2013, 02:22 PM   #127
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

I just think the League sees Gotham as something that has already gone rotten. Any attempts to revive it are basically just zombifying it and Febrezing it to mask the stench of its rotten core. That's why they say it must be allowed to die. They're all about natural order, and they believe Gotham's demise is required for the natural order to triumph. It needs to be torn out from the roots. That's why Bruce is such a paramount enemy of the League. It's not just that he betrayed them and killed Ra's, it's also that he is the sole person who stood in the way of what they saw as the natural order. Which is something his father did as well. Bruce definitely threw salt in the wound by doing so with the skills he learned from them though. The League certainly had a few loose ends to tie. I can't accept the notion that they would be able to show mercy and acknowledge that Bruce Wayne was right in the first place about Gotham, and admit their former leader was wrong. That is just way too soft for them. If they believed that declining societies could be permanently reversed from within, how could they ever justify genocide? Why not just wait one more year to see if things get better? It happened in Gotham right? All it takes is one piece of legislation to fix a city right? No way! The League were an already evil organization operating under the pretense of logic. Bruce Wayne forced them into a situation where their logic is less apparent and the evil is much, much more so. But both aspects are always there. In TDKR they enact their vision justice with a side of vengeance. Which brings us right back to the lessons Bruce had to learn in Batman Begins.

It's interesting how Bruce and Talia both try to hold on to their fathers' ideals, but both go in their own, more extreme directions with them.

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Old 01-14-2013, 02:26 PM   #128
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

This thread is still going on it seems, lol.

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Old 01-14-2013, 04:56 PM   #129
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

I think the answer to the question of why the League would want to destroy a peaceful city is simple. Bane refers to the peace as "borrowed time." Time, borrowed by Batman's victory over the mob. I doubt Bane and Talia were rooting for Gotham or even paying attention to it's progress in those 8 years.

The problem with Batman and Gordon's cover-up, is that it's just that, a cover up, bandage solution that did not get rid of the core problems in the city. The movie suggests numerous new problems as mentioned by other posters. Unemployment, white collar greed and corruption evidenced by Daggett, and laziness, decadence, and lack of vigilance on the part of the the GCPD, illustrated by Foley and the Senator at the beginning of the film.

I think a lot of people are underplaying the significance of Selina's criminal background as something she saw as a necessity. Her resentment toward the rich and her initial sympathies toward Bane's cause is another indication that all's not right in Gotham.

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Old 01-14-2013, 05:17 PM   #130
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

So if we can reach an agreement that the League did have a motivation, what it really boils down to is 'was that motivation as compelling to you?'

I have trouble answering yes to that, because it seems less relevant and thus less potent in Rises' Gotham than it did in Begins' Gotham, and because it's frankly recycled. Bane effectively lacked his own boots and instead stood in those of Ra's.

Maybe more stewing time will allow me to view that as a charming thing rather than an underwhelming thing. I guess I was expecting a bit more in the way of new, powerful philosophical challenge, and in terms of Bane being original.

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I think a lot of people are underplaying the significance of Selina's criminal background as something she saw as a necessity. Her resentment toward the rich and her initial sympathies toward Bane's cause is another indication that all's not right in Gotham.
Nice, that's the best example yet. Can't argue it.

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Old 01-14-2013, 06:12 PM   #131
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Maybe more stewing time will allow me to view that as a charming thing rather than an underwhelming thing. I guess I was expecting a bit more in the way of new, powerful philosophical challenge, and in terms of Bane being original.



Nice, that's the best example yet. Can't argue it.

That aspect of Selina is the most compelling to me and the thing I was really excited to see Nolan explore and "get right" like I think he did with other comic characters in the series. Selina's initial conversation with Bruce at the gala is so intriguing and from my POV, I can really get behind what she is saying. This paired with Bruce's wealth makes for ripe ground for exploration. I'm not sure they really mined all that for what it's worth in the film but I am happy with the idea of penniless Bruce living his life with Selina in the end.

Bruce's money and the social responsibility it brings is something Nolan is interested in since BB but going against the importance of the Wayne legacy, in TDKR, he turns his back on all of that in favor poor Wayne whose legacy is not all that important. It's Batman's legacy that matters in the end. I really was expecting Bruce to be revealed as Batman.

Something I don't see brought up much on here is why do you think Bane didn't reveal Batman's identity and the fact that he broke and imprisoned him to the public? I'm not really sure why this didn't happen and I think it would have made his return even more epic in the eyes of the public, making him supernatural to their eyes and more than just a man and truly everlasting which might make Blake taking up the mantel even more appropriate.

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Old 01-14-2013, 07:26 PM   #132
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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That aspect of Selina is the most compelling to me and the thing I was really excited to see Nolan explore and "get right" like I think he did with other comic characters in the series. Selina's initial conversation with Bruce at the gala is so intriguing and from my POV, I can really get behind what she is saying. This paired with Bruce's wealth makes for ripe ground for exploration. I'm not sure they really mined all that for what it's worth in the film but I am happy with the idea of penniless Bruce living his life with Selina in the end.

Bruce's money and the social responsibility it brings is something Nolan is interested in since BB but going against the importance of the Wayne legacy, in TDKR, he turns his back on all of that in favor poor Wayne whose legacy is not all that important. It's Batman's legacy that matters in the end. I really was expecting Bruce to be revealed as Batman.

Something I don't see brought up much on here is why do you think Bane didn't reveal Batman's identity and the fact that he broke and imprisoned him to the public? I'm not really sure why this didn't happen and I think it would have made his return even more epic in the eyes of the public, making him supernatural to their eyes and more than just a man and truly everlasting which might make Blake taking up the mantel even more appropriate.
You make some very good points.

I think that Bane felt that if people knew Bruce was Batman it would empower the people and effectively end the class war, hindering his plans for Gotham. I dont know if it would play out this way if he revealed Bruce as Batman, but its likely Bane thought that it would and it makes sense.

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Old 01-15-2013, 07:33 AM   #133
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Originally Posted by RustyCage View Post
So if we can reach an agreement that the League did have a motivation, what it really boils down to is 'was that motivation as compelling to you?'

I have trouble answering yes to that, because it seems less relevant and thus less potent in Rises' Gotham than it did in Begins' Gotham, and because it's frankly recycled. Bane effectively lacked his own boots and instead stood in those of Ra's.
I agree that in the end its a matter of personal opinion.

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I think a lot of people are underplaying the significance of Selina's criminal background as something she saw as a necessity. Her resentment toward the rich and her initial sympathies toward Bane's cause is another indication that all's not right in Gotham.

Absolutely. She's another one of the operators of the movie that represent another facet of the city , a view beyond the surface. That's Nolan's way of showing different aspects of the entire gotham spectrum . It adds to the texture he builds , the world outside the frame. He's quite ingenious writing these sort of mechanism.

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Old 01-15-2013, 04:03 PM   #134
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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They didn't know that when they came back to Gotham. Bane only discovered the Dent cover up by accident when Gordon was brought to his lair and they found his confessional letter on him. If they knew that BEFORE they came to Gotham, then it would have made a lot more sense. There was no reason for the LOS to destroy Gotham. The city was prospering in a peace time where crime rates were so low that the Mayor was going to retire Gordon.

Greedy businessman like Daggett are everywhere all over the world. Much like how every city has some degree of crime in it like the Mayor said. I don't see the LOS targeting every city in the world. It's a pathetic reason to destroy a whole city because of that. At least Ra's in Begins was all about destroying Gotham when it was overrun with crime and corruption. I could buy into his philosophy. I couldn't take Bane's plan seriously at all. Especially after Ra's and Joker's schemes had some logic to them.

Wait...what?

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Old 01-15-2013, 05:56 PM   #135
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

I said it before and I said it again. Gotham was unfinished business for the league of Shadows. For them it was beyond saving.

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Old 01-15-2013, 08:00 PM   #136
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Wait...what?
When the Joker tells Harvey he's not a schemer, he's lying to him. (You might say that's the joke.)

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Old 01-15-2013, 08:01 PM   #137
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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I said it before and I said it again. Gotham was unfinished business for the league of Shadows. For them it was beyond saving.
Yeah, that's essentially the discussion in a sentence. I have to wonder though: Why wait 8 years?

That's why I assumed they were watching and judging before striking, but maybe it just took 8 years to prep for some unknown reason.

Does anyone know if the movie answers this?

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Old 01-15-2013, 08:04 PM   #138
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

Perhaps he doesn't view himself as a schemer, but certainly taking other people plans and turning on themselves is kind of a plan too.

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Old 01-15-2013, 08:06 PM   #139
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Yeah, that's essentially the discussion in a sentence. I have to wonder though: Why wait 8 years?

That's why I assumed they were watching and judging before striking, but maybe it just took 8 years to prep for some unknown reason.

Does anyone know if the movie answers this?
Because the plan relied on the energy project of Bruce Wayne.

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Old 01-15-2013, 08:11 PM   #140
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Because the plan relied on the energy project of Bruce Wayne.
Did it? Or was it just convenient?

I'll rewatch with this in mind.

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Old 01-15-2013, 08:12 PM   #141
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

I'm pretty sure. Miranda was very insistent about it.

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Old 01-15-2013, 08:17 PM   #142
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

Sorry guys im on my phone. I just thought they returned to finish what the league started. When bane said about the borrowed time they have been living on, that it was about gotham should have been destroyed in bb but batman stopped them. So this time we take out the batman and we will complete our mission but we also punnish him for going against league. Plus the league also thought that if bruce defeated them with their own training and his weapons then this time we use his weapons and our training to destroy gotham. But they also think that if they take his money away and everything else that it will be the icing on the cake and they will win. Wrong. Its his will to act that they dont have. They needed to kill bruce to destroy gotham. This is how the police defeat the league/mercs and blackgate inmates because of thier will to act. As ra's said in bb ''the training is nothing the will is everything''. Robin has that same will to act as bruce has. The will to do whatever is best for gotham. But not all the cops have that same will as him/bruce. Like the cop who blows the bridge. All it takes is one to stuff it up. Like the one who gave the order to the cop. Thats why he cant work within the law. Being a Batman is the right path for him. He only has to listen to himself and not some boss who doesnt really care for gotham like he does. It didnt matter about the dent act or the clean streets or that batman & gordon lied. It was a natural way for them to return.

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Old 01-15-2013, 09:04 PM   #143
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

I think it also probably took the League some time to regroup and figure out how to proceed as an organization after Ra's' death. It's not like Talia would have immediately assumed control of the League, seeing as she had ceased her involvement by that point due to her daddy issues. You could make the argument that the League we see in TDKR is a completely different iteration, perhaps comprised of Bane's own mercenaries. It's all a bit ambiguous.

But yes, BlueLightning is right. Regardless of when the LOS became reorganized and had decided on their course of action, because of the crucial role the energy project played in how they wanted to hold the city hostage (it was the most viable way to get a nuke onto the island without any chance of alerting the government), it was something that was going to take a long time to put into effect. The slow knife cuts deepest, as Talia says. I mean, in real life terrorist acts do take years to plan. Come to think of it, the first attack on the Twin Towers in '93 and 9/11 were 8 years apart. So there's a parallel.

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Old 01-15-2013, 09:51 PM   #144
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

Well put, Lobby. Love the slow knife cuts deepest bit.

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Old 01-15-2013, 09:56 PM   #145
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Wait...what?
What's your confusion? Joker wanted to break Gotham's spirit. If you believed Joker when he was saying he wasn't a schemer, or not responsible for happened to Rachel etc, then pigs fly.

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Old 02-09-2013, 07:56 PM   #146
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

It was thematically important for the LOS to return for several reasons.

1. They didn't believe Gotham could be saved. Even if there is peace in Gotham, it's just a bandage. When they say Gotham is "beyond" saving, they mean it.

2. Legacy is a major theme of TDKR. Ra's al Ghul teaches Bruce how to create a legend in BB. In TDKR, he teaches Bruce how legends can achieve immortality. Ra's lives on through Talia and Bane, just as Batman will live on through the people of Gotham and Blake.

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Old 02-12-2013, 03:37 PM   #147
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

I'm probably in the minority here, but I believe the League of Shadows did not return in TDKR. They were re-created by Bane and Talia with maybe a few ex-members.

As I wrote in another thread, the only member that we know died in BB was the leader, "Ra's Al Ghul". I believe Bruce was supposed to the successor to Ra's if anything were to happen to him. But since Bruce rejected the role and returned to Gotham, Ra's had to have picked someone else to take over if they didn't succeed.

Well, they didn't succeed but no one we know of from the League were arrested. So they either re-grouped and went back to their hideout or they disbanded.

So let's say the rest of the members returned home. Why would they agree to allow an ex-member (Talia) and one that was kicked out (Bane) to lead the group? Because her father died? I doubt it.

Also, the "LOS" in TDKR were only shown to be good with firearms. In BB, they were trained ninjas. There's a huge difference. I'm mean, Catwoman was kicking their buts on the rooftop until they started gun fire.

Again, I believe the "LOS" were disbanded after BB. While recruiting a few former members (how else would she find out who killed her father?) Talia and Bane re-created it "their way".

So now to answer the OP's question: Like Talia said, she was "finishing what her father started". Well, sort of. She cared about him (Ra's), but she really cared about Bane for saving her life. She was not going to abandon Bane as her father did to her. That's why she left the "LOS".

But deep down inside, it had more to do with torturing the person that killed her father (Batman). Her mother gets killed (for what reason, I don't know) right in front of her and now her father gets killed. She was not going to let that person get off easy. It just happened to be a coincidence that this person that killed her father (Batman) wanted to protect the city that was supposed to be destroyed. It was a perfect way to get back at Batman.

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Old 02-12-2013, 04:58 PM   #148
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

Talia was an ex-member? When did she leave?

Talia was the heir and after Ra's died we can assume that the League fell into her hands.

The mercenaries in TDKR wore the same clothes as the members in the temple in Batman Begins (who yes, had guns). Not all the League are ninjas. They seemed to be not just 'hired guns'. ("a lot of loyalty", remember? "have we started the fire", etc)

Since Talia is the leader, she can reinstate Bane into a position of power and respect.

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Old 02-12-2013, 05:05 PM   #149
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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I'm probably in the minority here, but I believe the League of Shadows did not return in TDKR.
Well it certainly didn't feel like the LOS in TDKR.

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Old 02-12-2013, 09:37 PM   #150
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

Christopher Nolan said it was important for the League of Shadows to return, so yes, they are the League of Shadows. The League were shown in the flashbacks in TDKR to be a bunch of gunmen. The gunmen in Batman Begins at the monastery wore the same red scarves that the League members wore in The Dark Knight Rises. Bruce Wayne was never supposed to be Ra's successor, he was supposed to be Ra's' right-hand man out in front in the attack on Gotham. That's what the movie says.

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