The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

I'm not convinced personally that their relationship is at all romantic.

Me neither. I think the parallel is more in that Rachel and Talia are both female figures that Bruce and Bane idealize, but for every different reasons.

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

Heath's acting only saves that scene on the first or even the second viewing. On the third viewing it started to bother crap out of me. What happened to his other knife? Plus, those knives had some sort of super power to be able to completely and utterly silence anybody who was stabbed by it. No visual or aural cues of struggle whatsoever.

This IS nitpicking. It's a directorial choice to keep the focus on Heath, because Gambol's death is inconsequential in itself, and viscerally still works great for me thanks to Zimmer's cue. You can bet your ass that Richard King and his sound team had sound there, but the choice was made that they were not needed for the effect they wanted. Disagree with the choice if you want, but I really think they made the right call for a PG-13 Batman movie that didn't need that excess to make the scene work. This scene conveys the brutality of the Joker either way without it being gratuitous.

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

I just posted this on the Cringeworthy Moments in Good Movies thread in the Misc forums.

Am I the only one incredibly baffled by Alfred's exposition on Bane's past? About his excommunication with Ras Al Ghul? How the heck did he know of these? Are Bane and Ras celebrities? Are their break up internet news? Isn't the League of Shadows a super secret organization that only the criminal underworld knows as myth?

That scene never fails to elicit a saddened laughter from me. Because that's exactly the kind of thing Nolan's haters exaggerate that he does. Only this time it is a baffling reality.

I always thought the scene with Harvey Dent, Rachel, Bruce and his Russian squeeze would be the lowest point in this series for me for blunt exposition. Fear not! Nolan surpassed it, with flying colors! This time it wasn't just blunt exposition, it made no sense whatsoever. Ras' personal history with Bane just shouldn't be information to be easily acquired.

IMO this is an important part of the "legend" that Bane has built (a great parallel to what Bruce has done in Gotham with his name "The Batman"). Alfred has advanced scientific technology at his hands, finding reports of such a legend (a terrorist/mercenary too extreme for a terrorist group? That DOES get around, even if it's confidential intel. Hell the guy at the beginning of the film seemed to think of Bane as much more important than just some mercenary) would be expected.

[Excelsior.]

This IS nitpicking.

For you may be. For me it isn't. We all watch films differently. Visual grammar is important to me.

It's a directorial choice to keep the focus on Heath

A fine choice. But that's hardly my problem with the scene.

because Gambol's death is inconsequential in itself

That may be so, but the fact that he drops down without a whimper like he's been burned by lightning still jars.

and viscerally still works great for me thanks to Zimmer's cue

I don't see how. Zimmer's music does as little to lift the incongruities with the visual continuity of the film anymore than Heath does.

You can bet your ass that Richard King and his sound team had sound there, but the choice was made that they were not needed for the effect they wanted. Disagree with the choice if you want, but I really think they made the right call for a PG-13 Batman movie that didn't need that excess to make the scene work.

This is true. The film is compromised to meet the PG13 rating. That is a fair reason for the flaws in continuity. But good reasons don't mean that flaws don't exist. I acknowledge that such is the reason such flaws exist, but the flaws still exist.

I should say though, Nolan regularly displayed the same lapses in continuity in action sequences prior to Rises (which means Begins, Knight, and Inception). So how much to blame Nolan and how much to compromise?

This scene conveys the brutality of the Joker either way without it being gratuitous.

Amen.

But Gambol's thugs still fall down between cuts, and one of Joker's knife still disappears between cuts. And for a medium that depends on visuals to convey information, that is a flaw. And while I realize the need to compromise to meet the PG 13 rating, I would think they could've been done without these lapses in information.

Let me compare it to a book given to you as a kid edited by a teacher, who decided to censor sentences and words to "protect" you from sensitive material. You may understand the reasons for it, but that still doesn't mean that when you read a paragraph where words and sentences are missing, your quality of immersion is prone to breaking. As it does mine with the Dark Knight during that scene.

[BatLobsterRises]

I always figured he just left his knife in the other guy. I mean this is The Joker we're talking about. He's shown to make knives appear out of nowhere like a magician in the movie. He's also good at making things disappear, like pencils and...Rachel.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I always figured he just left his knife in the other guy. I mean this is The Joker we're talking about. He's shown to make knives appear out of nowhere like a magician in the movie. He's also good at making things disappear, like pencils and...Rachel.

Yeah, this is what I was thinking while reading the criticism.

The inspection they do on him once they finally catch him remarks that he's got knives in his pockets. He seems to be practically made out of them, which is part of his charm/scariness.

[Anita18]

Away from nitpicking and back to more serious matters.

A giant in the tech world committed suicide last week. Aaron Swartz, a 26-year-old genius who co-founded RSS and Reddit, was hit with felony charges from downloading scientific articles and making them available to the general public. He would have faced 35 years in the slammer if convicted. (Even murderers and rapists don't get 35 years for their crimes, but that's a topic for probably the political forum.) The trial weighed heavily on him and apparently became too much.

His very last blog post (from last November) discussed TDK, curiously enough. The last bit is particularly poignant, and he seems to liken himself to the Joker, who points out society's hypocrisies.

The movie concludes by emphasizing that Batman must become the villain, but as usual it never stops to notice that the Joker is actually the hero. But even though his various games only have one innocent casualty, he’s much too crazy to be a viable role model for Batman. His inspired chaos destroys the criminals, but it also terrorizes the population. Thanks to Batman, society doesn’t devolve into a self-interested war of all-against-all, as he apparently expects it to, but that doesn’t mean anyone enjoys the trials.

Thus Master Wayne is left without solutions. Out of options, it’s no wonder the series ends with his staged suicide.

http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/tdk

[ThePhantasm]

The Joker, Ras, and Bane point out societies' hypocrisies and flaws. Lots of people can do that. Batman could do that, easily. The profound thing isn't to point these flaws out but to address them and believe in redemption. That's what Batman does. He never gives up on Gotham, even after all the villains have.

[TheVileOne]

Originally Posted by Anita18

Away from nitpicking and back to more serious matters.

A giant in the tech world committed suicide last week. Aaron Swartz, a 26-year-old genius who co-founded RSS and Reddit, was hit with felony charges from downloading scientific articles and making them available to the general public. He would have faced 35 years in the slammer if convicted. (Even murderers and rapists don't get 35 years for their crimes, but that's a topic for probably the political forum.) The trial weighed heavily on him and apparently became too much.

His very last blog post (from last November) discussed TDK, curiously enough. The last bit is particularly poignant, and he seems to liken himself to the Joker, who points out society's hypocrisies.



http://www.aaronsw.com/weblog/tdk

Doesn't sound like the whole story to me.

Either way, that's just one view I don't agree with.

[Happy Jack]

Anybody equating themselves with the Joker or referring to him as a hero has a very skewed vision of reality.

Similar to people finding a role model in Tyler Durden. Sure, they have captivating ideas and the world around them is hypocritical and corrupt, but they're still bad people. They should not be looked up to with any seriousness.

[weezerspider]

Originally Posted by Happy Jack

Anybody equating themselves with the Joker or referring to him as a hero has a very skewed vision of reality.

Similar to people finding a role model in Tyler Durden. Sure, they have captivating ideas and the world around them is hypocritical and corrupt, but they're still bad people. They should not be looked up to with any seriousness.

QFT. And 'one innocent victim"? Thats a very Al Ghul way of seeing things. Sure Gordon's men were corrupt, but they hardly needed to die. Dent 'died' fairly innocent until becoming Two-Face. The judge was said to have as strong of a desire for justice as Dent. Loeb was controversial and possibly corrupt himself, but to kill him? Rachel was pretty good on moral grounds. The fake batman guy probably was a pretty decent dude. Maybe I'm too much like Bats, but I don't think Lau, the bus driver, or gambol were evil enough to be worthy of a death penalty. They mention more than Dent missing in the hospital and we just assume all of them are on the bus that Joker hi-jacks, but he could have killed some innocent people there. The point is, Joker did his fair share of killing people who didn't need to be killed. I have a hard time feeling anyone should be killed, but if you were going to justify bad people being killed, Joker didn't really kill that many people I would be ok with dying.

[Anita18]

Originally Posted by Happy Jack

Anybody equating themselves with the Joker or referring to him as a hero has a very skewed vision of reality.

Similar to people finding a role model in Tyler Durden. Sure, they have captivating ideas and the world around them is hypocritical and corrupt, but they're still bad people. They should not be looked up to with any seriousness.

Did you read the entire post? He points out that Joker does what Dent and Batman and Gordon set out to do - he got rid of the mob factions. Gambol, the Chechen, and Maroni. All dead because of him. Or in the case of Maroni, indirectly because of him. I think that's what he means about Joker being "heroic" in the context of the movie.

It all depends on your view of things. Ra's, Bane, and Batman were all doing what they believed was right. If you stretched it, you could also say that Joker was spreading his religion of chaos, and thus also doing what he believed was right, but deep down I don't think he really gives a crap. Of course, we think that Ra's and Bane and Joker are bad guys because they kill people (as well as sacrifice themselves) for their greater goal. Batman is self-sacrificing but refuses to kill innocents. That's why he's considered the hero out of the lot of them.

And let's face it, Joker does kind of have a point about society requiring laws so the world doesn't go down burning. I think Batman believes that too - that's why he's in the picture in the first place. He doesn't think the laws are doing enough to protect society. But Batman believes that people are, on the whole, innately good. They just need a push toward goodness, which is squashed by fear and corruption. Whereas Joker believes that people are innately selfish, and just need a push to forego law and morality altogether.

[RustyCage]

Batman is a fantastic symbol of Voluntarism (or Voluntaryism) as the way forward for humanity. 'Anyone can be a hero' packs a punch if you're as politically minded as I am.

On the other hand, Joker tries to paint a horrific picture of Anarchy, and fails.

[Anita18]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

Batman is a fantastic symbol of Voluntarism (or Voluntaryism) as the way forward for humanity. 'Anyone can be a hero' packs a punch if you're as politically minded as I am.

On the other hand, Joker tries to paint a horrific picture of Anarchy, and fails.

Well, besides the whole non-aggression principle of Voluntaryism, sure.

[Gotham's Knight]

Originally Posted by Anita18

If you stretched it, you could also say that Joker was spreading his religion of chaos

Still less forceful than Jehovah's Witnesses. :P

I do agree with Happy Jack for the most part. Somebody saying that they are like the Joker or that Tyler Durden is a good role model has a few screws loose in my books.

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

I just posted this on the Cringeworthy Moments in Good Movies thread in the Misc forums.

Am I the only one incredibly baffled by Alfred's exposition on Bane's past? About his excommunication with Ras Al Ghul? How the heck did he know of these? Are Bane and Ras celebrities? Are their break up internet news? Isn't the League of Shadows a super secret organization that only the criminal underworld knows as myth?

That scene never fails to elicit a saddened laughter from me. Because that's exactly the kind of thing Nolan's haters exaggerate that he does. Only this time it is a baffling reality.

I always thought the scene with Harvey Dent, Rachel, Bruce and his Russian squeeze would be the lowest point in this series for me for blunt exposition. Fear not! Nolan surpassed it, with flying colors! This time it wasn't just blunt exposition, it made no sense whatsoever. Ras' personal history with Bane just shouldn't be information to be easily acquired.

I dont agree with your exaggeration describing that moment (much less being cringeworthy) , but i also think its probably the lowest point in the movie , and maybe in Nolan's writing. I think he is really really good with this sort of stuff , he dominates these sort of mechanism that push information forward (either visually , verbally, actions , etc) but the info on Bane is mediocre. I let it pass because the moment they introduce the CIA , and their involvement in affairs related to the "masked man" , its very hard to distinguish the line of of information they know and they don't know. And Bruce asked him to investigate further , so knowing Alfred's abilities and having all those resources at his disposal...i accept it. Its not elegant , but it does his job. We also know the league has been involved in some stuff in Africa , its the sort of major stuff that's hard to hide. And after Gotham's attack in Begins , off course a group like that would be throughly investigated. Just like todays age. They know a lot about terrorist groups , but they also dont know detailed locations , etc , etc , etc.

[Bruce_Begins]

The Alfred's line that was something like ": You are as precious to me as you were to your own mother and father that I will protect you and I haven't.." was there in the trailer but they removed it from the movie....why ?

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by Bruce_Begins

The Alfred's line that was something like ": You are as precious to me as you were to your own mother and father that I will protect you and I haven't.." was there in the trailer but they removed it from the movie....why ?

I'm not quite sure, and I wish they hadn't. There's even a few more lines in the script they left out that make it flow a LOT better, IMO, so I'm not sure why they felt they needed to cut those 15-20 extra seconds during one of the film's most poignant scenes.

[TDK elbowstrike]

Why are some people saying Joker only killed one or very few innocent people in TDK? He killed a traffic cop with a sawed-off shotgun. He shot another beat cop in the hospital with an Uzi.

I also think some people forget that scene where Joker has his eighteen wheeler flipped. Batman is riding full speed at Joker on the Batpod. Joker has a clear shot at Bats but instead he SHOOTS UP THREE CARS in order to entice Batman to mow him down with the Batpod. Who where the people in these cars? We will never know but for all we know there could have been a family with young kids driving home when Joker decides to target their vehicle randomly to piss off the Batman.

Joker killed many more innocents than that even an let's not forget. His intention was to have SWAT shoot innocent hostages during the final showdown, which would tie him to murder indirectly since he kidnapped them if it played out that way.

[Schlosser85]

If he thought The Joker only killed one innocent victim, he didn't watch the movie very closely.

The Joker kills willy-nilly through the whole movie. He's a multiple cop-killer, and just random cops who cross his path, not just Gordon's corrupt men.

There is no indication in the movies that Commissioner Loeb is corrupt, or the judge he blows up.

He put explosives and a detonator on a ferry filled with civilians, including families and small children, and tried to blackmail another ferry into blowing them up.

He tries to trick the SWAT team into shooting the hostages from the hospital, which would have massacred dozens more innocent civilians.

He shoots randomly at cars in the middle of the street.

Brian Douglass may have been foolish, but he was probably just trying to emulate his hero Batman and help clean up the streets.

The Joker is a completely indiscriminate homicidal maniac.

[TDK elbowstrike]

Originally Posted by Schlosser85

If he thought The Joker only killed one innocent victim, he didn't watch the movie very closely.

The Joker kills willy-nilly through the whole movie. He's a multiple cop-killer, and just random cops who cross his path, not just Gordon's corrupt men.

There is no indication in the movies that Commissioner Loeb is corrupt, or the judge he blows up.

He put explosives and a detonator on a ferry filled with civilians, including families and small children, and tried to blackmail another ferry into blowing them up.

He tries to trick the SWAT team into shooting the hostages from the hospital, which would have massacred dozens more innocent civilians.

He shoots randomly at cars in the middle of the street.

Brian Douglass may have been foolish, but he was probably just trying to emulate his hero Batman and help clean up the streets.

The Joker is a completely indiscriminate homicidal maniac.

All of this.

[Just_Human]

I dunno, Jokers seems to be a cool dude to hang out with

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by TDK elbowstrike

All of this.

I don't see what is so funny?

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by Anita18

Well, besides the whole non-aggression principle of Voluntaryism, sure.

Batman isn't the aggressor. If innocents are aggressed upon, he reacts. That's two different things. The non-aggression principle still allows for responsible defense, or 'the will to act'.

This is a common misconception.

[Travesty]

Originally Posted by Schlosser85

If he thought The Joker only killed one innocent victim, he didn't watch the movie very closely.

The Joker kills willy-nilly through the whole movie. He's a multiple cop-killer, and just random cops who cross his path, not just Gordon's corrupt men.

There is no indication in the movies that Commissioner Loeb is corrupt, or the judge he blows up.

He put explosives and a detonator on a ferry filled with civilians, including families and small children, and tried to blackmail another ferry into blowing them up.

He tries to trick the SWAT team into shooting the hostages from the hospital, which would have massacred dozens more innocent civilians.

He shoots randomly at cars in the middle of the street.

Brian Douglass may have been foolish, but he was probably just trying to emulate his hero Batman and help clean up the streets.

The Joker is a completely indiscriminate homicidal maniac.

Nah, The Joker is heroic, broooo.