Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns Animated - Part 1

[Binker]

Actually, yeah: for those who did not read the book, as well as those who did, how did you guys feel about why Superman was the way he was in DKR?

@theMan-Bat: thanks for your post, but it does feel like there's more to the story because it feels like there was a superhero crackdown similar to what happened in the Watchmen universe, in the DKR universe. But sadly, DKSA totally ruins everything, and gives a different reasoning altogether that makes it more out of canon than a sequel by any stretch to DKR. I mean, when pre a) Sin City, b) cuckoo for cocoa puffs (lol) Miller wrote DKR, and mentioned Wonder Woman and Green Lantern in Superman's dialogue, why did they leave and why not join Superman or something similar?

Before I forget, there are great websites on DKR out there, and one of them that I just found is a blog that deconstructs everything from DKR. It can be foudn here, the link links it to the beginning of the blog:
http://dkreturns.blogspot.com/search...&max-results=2

[Drakepool]

I actually prefer Part 1 over Part 2. IMO, Part 2 didn't really pick up until after Joker died.

[Anita18]

Originally Posted by Crazymaverick

I liked it much better than part 1 that's for sure!

Then again, I liked that part of the graphic novel better too. Maybe it was the more epic scope of the story or the fact that it had Superman in it.

Or maybe both!

I think Superman's presence brings the reasons for Batman's existence into the story. An example of how we should always do the right thing, even if the right thing is against someone's orders. Even if it looks bad.

The fight was so much more awesome in the movie than in the book, although I missed the voiceovers some. And I totally snickered when Supes was batted around by the pre-fight missiles and fell "POOT" into the snow. I'm a terrible person.

Originally Posted by Kane52630

Saw it last night and holy crap it was incredible. I saw part I again before I saw II and it made the experience even more awesome. The carnival part was almost more horrifying than the book.

I noted that they didn't show the kids dead and poisoned from the free cotton candy. You'd think if there was any point in showing Joker give out free cotton candy, it would be to show the scores of dead children. But maybe that was too much?

The way he was just randomly shooting people in the Tunnel of Love was horrifying though, definitely more drawn-out than in the book.

I liked (if there could be such a word to describe it) the way Joker killed his doctor in the movie. Just so much more brutal and horrifying, and personal.

I also liked the final touch of Alfred looking over the old photo album of Bruce before finally leaving the manor. It definitely cemented the differences between Miller's DKR and Nolan's TDKR. Nolan's Batman isn't as driven by personal injustice, but stopping corruption so that society can find its own way back. Miller's Batman will never find personal solace, but doling out justice will be his reason to live. It's really awesome that we can have two vastly different versions of the character but each one being incredibly compelling.

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by Binker

@theMan-Bat: thanks for your post, but it does feel like there's more to the story because it feels like there was a superhero crackdown similar to what happened in the Watchmen universe, in the DKR universe. But sadly, DKSA totally ruins everything, and gives a different reasoning altogether that makes it more out of canon than a sequel by any stretch to DKR. I mean, when pre a) Sin City, b) cuckoo for cocoa puffs (lol) Miller wrote DKR, and mentioned Wonder Woman and Green Lantern in Superman's dialogue, why did they leave and why not join Superman or something similar?

Before I forget, there are great websites on DKR out there, and one of them that I just found is a blog that deconstructs everything from DKR. It can be foudn here, the link links it to the beginning of the blog:
http://dkreturns.blogspot.com/search...&max-results=2

I've seen that site.

Wonder Woman went back to her people, DKSA reveals to raise her daughter, and Green Lantern went to the stars, DKSA reveals he's living on another planet, because superheroes were outlawed and he obviously didn't agree to give the government his obedience. It was a superhero crackdown. Batman vilified them in the public eye and gave corrupt people like Luthor a publicly acceptable excuse to crackdown on the superheroes. In the end of DKR, Bruce says in his inner monologue, "It begins here--an army--to bring sense to a world plagued by worse than thieves and murders." Rather than a contradiction, DKSA reveals for the first time what Bruce was referring to, with Luthor and Brianiac's totalitarian regime, political corruption. DKSA takes place years later and by then the president is a computer-generated image run by Luthor and Brainiac. Miller explained, "both candidates (Gore and Bush) came across to me like computer-generated images. Their debates were the most bizarre I’ve ever witnessed. I remember watching them thinking that I was expecting one of them to pixelate in front of me. So I came up with a generic president."
http://4thletter.net/2009/04/sons-of...-miller-x-tcj/

Frank Miller's friend and editor Bob Schreck revealed, "With almost every project with Frank, when we started The Dark Knight Strikes Again, first thing Frank did when he called me, first thing he said was, 'Hey, Schreck, wanna go on a suicide run?' Why? Because he knew that they wanted The Dark Knight Returns repeated, and no matter what he did they were not gonna be happy. As an artist you just have to say, 'Well, I did that. I did that 14, 15 years ago. I'm done. This is what I wanna do now,' and you take your hit. There was a lot of controversy on that one. People didn't want new greatness, they just wanted to be reminded of past greatness. They didn't want anything new."
http://video.comicbookresources.com/...strikes-again/

[Number 6]

Originally Posted by Visceral

besides the mutant speak and reagan, I don't know what. I can see how much this inspired both TDK and TDKR and I find the book is still very relevant.

Actually, I sort of felt the same way. It's not just the Reagan stuff and mutant speak, there is an eighties feel I picked up on. Not sure exactly how to put a finger on it, though.

I don't know how relevant it is really. Depends on how you mean. You can still feel it's influence in modern comics if that's what you mean, but as far as it goes with writing and such, definitely feel it's a product of it's time. Not that that is inherently a bad thing, however.

Originally Posted by Binker

Actually, yeah: for those who did not read the book, as well as those who did, how did you guys feel about why Superman was the way he was in DKR?

Never did like it personally. It works well with the dynamic in the book, but eh, still never cared for it.

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by Number 6

Actually, I sort of felt the same way. It's not just the Reagan stuff and mutant speak, there is an eighties feel I picked up on. Not sure exactly how to put a finger on it, though.

There's also Carrie Kelley's hair style and big glasses. But '80s style is in again nowadays.

[Anita18]

Originally Posted by theMan-Bat

There's also Carrie Kelley's hair style and big glasses. But '80s style is in again nowadays.

Not the big hair or neon fashion. Not yet, at least.

[BH/HHH]

Originally Posted by theMan-Bat

There's also Carrie Kelley's hair style and big glasses. But '80s style is in again nowadays.

Yeah to be honest I think in the modern age people can wear anything from any times.

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by Anita18

Not the big hair or neon fashion. Not yet, at least.

Actually, big hair, bright neon fashion, are popular today with the emo/scene fashioned teenagers, mostly girls.








The Mutants and the Son of the Batman were partially inspired by different factions of skinhead punks in the '80s, and some teens today are skinheads, too, unfortunately.

[Visceral]

Originally Posted by theMan-Bat

I've seen that site.

Wonder Woman went back to her people, DKSA reveals to raise her daughter, and Green Lantern went to the stars, DKSA reveals he's living on another planet, because superheroes were outlawed and he obviously didn't agree to give the government his obedience. It was a superhero crackdown. Batman vilified them in the public eye and gave corrupt people like Luthor a publicly acceptable excuse to crackdown on the superheroes. In the end of DKR, Bruce says in his inner monologue, "It begins here--an army--to bring sense to a world plagued by worse than thieves and murders." Rather than a contradiction, DKSA reveals for the first time what Bruce was referring to, with Luthor and Brianiac's totalitarian regime, political corruption. DKSA takes place years later and by then the president is a computer-generated image run by Luthor and Brainiac. Miller explained, "both candidates (Gore and Bush) came across to me like computer-generated images. Their debates were the most bizarre I’ve ever witnessed. I remember watching them thinking that I was expecting one of them to pixelate in front of me. So I came up with a generic president."
http://4thletter.net/2009/04/sons-of...-miller-x-tcj/

Frank Miller's friend and editor Bob Schreck revealed, "With almost every project with Frank, when we started The Dark Knight Strikes Again, first thing Frank did when he called me, first thing he said was, 'Hey, Schreck, wanna go on a suicide run?' Why? Because he knew that they wanted The Dark Knight Returns repeated, and no matter what he did they were not gonna be happy. As an artist you just have to say, 'Well, I did that. I did that 14, 15 years ago. I'm done. This is what I wanna do now,' and you take your hit. There was a lot of controversy on that one. People didn't want new greatness, they just wanted to be reminded of past greatness. They didn't want anything new."
http://video.comicbookresources.com/...strikes-again/

very nice that last quote is very true of his work

[Binker]

DKSA and ASBAR aren't in canon with DKR, for me. And Bob Schreck is the guy who gave us those two books, and told Miller that he was doing great, instead of telling him that "this was Batman and not Sin City, please stop writing it as such." In short, Bob Schreck encouraged Miller to get worse instead of giving the writer that revelation he really needs. That, or his right to write and say/first amendment be taken away. Either way is fine.

'80s Miller was great, '90s MIller was all about Sin City which wasn't bad at all, though only some other works weren't so good, but Miller now: a joke.

[Gotham's Knight]

Originally Posted by Binker

DKSA and ASBAR aren't in canon with DKR, for me. And Bob Schreck is the guy who gave us those two books, and told Miller that he was doing great, instead of telling him that "this was Batman and not Sin City, please stop writing it as such." In short, Bob Schreck encouraged Miller to get worse instead of giving the writer that revelation he really needs. That, or his right to write and say/first amendment be taken away. Either way is fine.

'80s Miller was great, '90s MIller was all about Sin City which wasn't bad at all, though only some other works weren't so good, but Miller now: a joke.

But that robs the continuity from such great dialogue like:

"Are you dense? Are you retarded or something? I'm the God damn Batman."

And "I touched my mother's breast...it bled on me."

You don't want to remove golden lines like that from continuity.

[Visceral]

Originally Posted by Binker

DKSA and ASBAR aren't in canon with DKR, for me. And Bob Schreck is the guy who gave us those two books, and told Miller that he was doing great, instead of telling him that "this was Batman and not Sin City, please stop writing it as such." In short, Bob Schreck encouraged Miller to get worse instead of giving the writer that revelation he really needs. That, or his right to write and say/first amendment be taken away. Either way is fine.

'80s Miller was great, '90s MIller was all about Sin City which wasn't bad at all, though only some other works weren't so good, but Miller now: a joke.

The more i read and hear about Miller the more I like him. Shreck was right Miller was always insane, always tried to go as far outside of the box as he could, tried to offend as many as he could.

ASBAR is a multi-layered story commenting on the seduction of the innocent, the comics authority code, and the entire 50's. Its Miller's backlash on an age in American comics that Miller believes kept the medium from maturing as it has in other parts of the world.

I mean you don't have to like that, but there is a point to it, its still very much art.

[flickchick85]

So Christopher Drake confirmed on Twitter that the score is indeed getting a release. "Details coming soon."

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by Binker

DKSA and ASBAR aren't in canon with DKR, for me.

Like it or not, they are in fact canon to DKR. To deny that, is to deny the reality.

And Bob Schreck is the guy who gave us those two books, and told Miller that he was doing great, instead of telling him that "this was Batman and not Sin City, please stop writing it as such." In short, Bob Schreck encouraged Miller to get worse instead of giving the writer that revelation he really needs.

Frank Miller's comics had the Sin City noir feeling and themes as far back as his original Daredevil run with Daredevil and a gun, Karen Page doing porn in Miller's Daredevil: Born Again, etc., and Batman: The Dark Knight Returns features Batman as a vigilante outlaw wanted by the police, drinking alcohol, using guns, being very brutal and breaking his opponents bones, similar to Frank Miller's Sin City characters, Batman: Year One features prostitution and corrupt cops in a corrupt city, like Sin City, long before he made Sin City.

'80s Miller was great, '90s MIller was all about Sin City which wasn't bad at all, though only some other works weren't so good, but Miller now: a joke.

You are acting like you're opinions are facts. Everyone did not even agree that Miller's '80s writing was great in the '80s. Frank Miller's had his opposers since his early Daredevil material in the pre-internet era. Frank Miller has always been very controversial, from his original Daredevil run to today. He's very polarizing. There were people who disliked his Daredevil material and felt it was too grim, too violent, too brutal, too noir. Comics Journal #58 (1980) reported that Marvel's Jim Shooter refused to publish Frank Miller and Roger McKenzie's two-part drug storyline titled "Child's Play" and "Good Guys Wear Red!" in Daredevil, intended by Frank Miller, Roger McKenzie and editor Denny O'Neil for Daredevil #167 and 168 (1980), after it was not approved by the Comics Code Authority.

Marvel finally published the two-part story in Daredevil #183 and 184 (1982). In Comics Journal #77 (1982) it was reviewed by Ted White, who called it "a real letdown."

Frank Miller said in Comics Journal #70 (1981), "There has been an increasing number of letters complaining about the violence in Daredevil. At the same time, the sales have been going up astronomically."
In Comics Journal #71 (1982) Dwight Decker complained about how grim Frank Miller's Daredevil was:

Also in Comics Journal #71 (1982) Gary Groth complained about how brutal Frank Miller's Daredevil was:

There were also people who disliked Batman: The Dark Knight Returns. C. Carr, writing for the Village Voice in 1986, characterized Miller's Batman as "Rambo in a cape." Described Miller's portrayal of the Mutants gang as "disguised racism" and summed up Miller's Dark Knight as "cynicism" and "neoconservative propaganda."

As reported in Comics Journal #111 (September, 1986), on June 27, 1986, former Batman writer Alan Brennert called into Harlan Ellison's Hour 25 radio talk show which was broadcast on Los Angeles KPFK (90.7 FM) and called Miller's Batman a "psychopath." He cited Batman putting out Joker's eye "and Joker runs around for three and a half pages with one eye out. This ain't the Batman I grew up with. I don't think Dark Knight is up to his (Miller's) standards." Harlan Ellison called Miller's Batman "Batman cast as Dirty Harry." Harlan Ellison criticized Batman's treatment of Carrie Kelley, claiming "Batman keeps reprimanding her as if she were a retard."

In Amazing Heroes #120 (1987) Darren Madigan claimed Miller made Batman "an unadmirable, unsympathetic, borderline psychotic. Miller had already done this once to Daredevil."


As Frank Miller said in the documentary Comic Book Superheroes Unmasked, "In the mainstream media it (The Dark Knight Returns) got a great deal of attention, positive and negative, within the comics industry it was the closest thing to a bar fight that I had ever encountered, in that it was quite controversial. I actually got called up by former Batman writers telling me I had 'ruined their character.'"

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Frank Miller: "There was some mixed reaction with The Dark Knight Returns as well. But years later people started liking it so, I don't know, I did the best and most sincere piece of work I could and I'm proud of it."
http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.htm...8&docId=562386
Frank Miller: "If the internet had been around for Dark Knight (Returns), they would have been complaining as much as they are now, because the internet is there for people to complain. Batman says ‘Goddamn’ and they get the vapors. Screw ‘em."
http://doubleshot.forumcommunity.net...#entry31903871

[theMan-Bat]

Also, from Comics Journal #122 (October, 1986):

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by Binker

Miller now: a joke.

As to the perception of Frank Miller as "a joke now," while many today know of the parodies of Frank Miller's Sin City (Shortpacked "whoreswhoreswhores" by David Willis), parodies of All-Star Batman & Robin the Boy Wonder with "The Goddamn Batman" quotes, and Holy Terror (parodied as Batman using Hostess fruit pies vs. Osama bin Laden) on the internet. Parodies of Frank Miller's comics are nothing new, in the '80s there were also parodies of Frank Miller's Daredevil, Ronin and Batman: The Dark Knight Returns that were actually officially published. "Grit" by Alan Moore and Mike Collins, published in The Daredevils #8 (1983) by Marvel UK, was a parody of Frank Miller's Daredevil run.

Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles (1984) by Kevin Eastman and Peter Laird, published by Mirage Studios, started as a one-shot parody of Frank Miller's Ronin.

Pork Knight: This Little Piggy (1986) by Rob Walton, published by Silver Snail Comics, was a parody of Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns.

Clint: The Hamster Triumphant (1986) by Donald Chin, published by Eclipse Comics, was another parody of Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns.

Cerebus #93 (1986) "The Prisoner" by Dave Sim, published by Aardvark Vanaheim, contained the Roach as a parody of Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns.

Gnatrat: The Dark Gnat Returns (1986) by Mark Martin, published by Prelude Graphics, was another parody of Frank Miller's Batman: The Dark Knight Returns.

Amazing Heroes #102 (1986) reviewed Gnatrat: The Dark Gnat Returns:

Batman: Year One was also disliked by some people. In the Batman #408 (1987) letter column, Eric Shoag called Batman: Year One "almost blasphemous" and "unnecessary."

In the Batman #411 (1987) letter column, John Craddock called Batman: Year One "a dismal failure," "bastardizing the Batman," stating Miller "ruined Batman," making Batman "more like Rambo" and "trying to make Batman into Wolverine," and claimed Gordon is "an ultra-militaristic nut," and called the portrayal of Selina Kyle "the biggest insult to any character ever done in any art form."

In the Batman #408 (1987) letter column, Kevin Dwayne called David Mazzucchelli's Batman: Year One artwork "atrocious. You should be ashamed of yourselves for publishing such trash."

I read the parodies and read these negative complaints in the '80s but that didn't change my own opinion of the material and Frank Miller. In the internet age to many people sheepishly take criticisms to heart and allow that criticism to effect how they view the material and the writer, conforming to it. I've even read responses such as "I guess it isn't as good as I thought," essentially allowing others to make up their mind for them, without much thought of their own.

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by flickchick85

So Christopher Drake confirmed on Twitter that the score is indeed getting a release. "Details coming soon."

Looking forward to it, and I don't think I'm alone in that.

[BH/HHH]

Me too, hope it has that hint of a Superman theme that was used in Part 2.

[Darkness Falls]

as long as it has the carnival score and the techno-ish music when batman fights the thugs in the collapsed building i'll be happy

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Originally Posted by flickchick85

So Christopher Drake confirmed on Twitter that the score is indeed getting a release. "Details coming soon."

Fantastic... I hope it's a physical release.

[The Caped Knight]

Originally Posted by Binker

Actually, yeah: for those who did not read the book, as well as those who did, how did you guys feel about why Superman was the way he was in DKR?

I felt that Supes was trying to hold unto the ideas that Jonathan & Martha Kent had installed in him growing up in "Smallville". Unfortunately I think he took that a little too far and ended up becoming the Government's personal puppet . Bruce was actually right and essentially his presence returning as The Batman was basically the best "Screw you" to the government's policy and we saw that first hand in the way Batman was able to keep order in Gotham City during the world crisis brought by the Russian nuclear/Emp strike.

I love the battle in the film between Bats vs. Sups, it was a great showcase of these two titans/friends fighting against the ideals and also it was like the performance of a lifetime for the death of Bruce Wayne.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

[Anita18]

Originally Posted by The Caped Knight

I felt that Supes was trying to hold unto the ideas that Jonathan & Martha Kent had installed in him growing up in "Smallville". Unfortunately I think he took that a little too far and ended up becoming the Government's personal puppet . Bruce was actually right and essentially his presence returning as The Batman was basically the best "Screw you" to the government's policy and we saw that first hand in the way Batman was able to keep order in Gotham City during the world crisis brought by the Russian nuclear/Emp strike.

I love the battle in the film between Bats vs. Sups, it was a great showcase of these two titans/friends fighting against the ideals and also it was like the performance of a lifetime for the death of Bruce Wayne.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

I find it amusing that the only thing you have to do to bypass YouTube copyright censors is to flip the video.

I also find it amusing that Clark is still showing concern for Bruce even as Bruce is punching the living daylights out of him. I suppose that goes with being invulnerable and all....

[theMan-Bat]

Interviews:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Just when I thought I was doing a good job of avoiding this movie... now gifs are randomly popping up.