The Official "I Loved Raimi's Spider-Man' Thread - Part 1 of 99 Luft - Part 8

[SpideyVille]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Exactly. Why are these college Science guys picking on Peter like stupid juvenile brats? Three different ones in the same class, too. It was ridiculous and unbelievable.

To be fair, it wasn't the most ridiculous or unbelievable thing in that movie.

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Here's something I'd like to bring up to further continue with Joker's question even...say Raimi had his pie and ate it too with only giving us the old school villains, who would've shown up in Spider-Man 4?

Spider-Man - Green Goblin

Spider-Man 2 - Doc Ock

Spider-Man 3 - Vulture, Sandman, New Goblin

Spider-Man 4 - ?

I think SM4 would have definitely involved the Lizard somehow. Maybe Electro, though I think that could've went in a similar route to Doc Ock's experiment that nearly destroyed the city. I doubt we would have seen the Rhyno, Scorpion or even Shocker. And like I said previously, I think Chameleon could have been a nice fit at some point. In fact, I think he could have almost replaced Eddie and with a few tweak, it could have explained a whole lot more.

That was one of those hammy moments that Raimi could've taken out with his first two Spidey films. They were great movies, but there were obvious moments where Raimi went a bit too far.

This is something my friends would mention all the time, which is that SM3 exposed a lot of the flaws and hammy moments from the other two Raimi films. In a way, I can agree, except the difference is that they were forgivable in the past because everything else around them were good.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wooden Alligator

Going off the What-If where we have Vulture, Sandman and New Goblin in 3:

Spider-Man 4: Symbiote, Black-Suit Spider-Man. Villains include Scorpion plus Shocker as a street gang leader and Black Tarantula as his rival. J.J. thinks Symbiote Spider-Man is working with Black Tarantula since they have similar outfits. He's disgusted that the media loves Spider-Man. He funds the creation of Scorpion.

Spider-Man 5: Everyone loves it, so why not a Kraven/Lizard combination. Connors has been researching the herpetology in an attempt to regrow his arm. Kraven comes to New York for reasons of his own to hunt down Black Suite Spider-Man. At the end, Peter abandons the Black Suite.

Spider-Man 6: The symbiote finds Eddie Brock and merges with him. Venom wages a subtle war on Spider-Man. This is an experimental idea, but what if Venom could break off tendrils of the symbiote and use them to manipulate individuals like puppets? I'd have him do that with some of Peter's loved ones who've passed on. At the end Spider-Man settles down with Gwen.

Eddie would be a character throughout; a sleuth who wants to use the power of the press to bring justice dened to him as a child when his parents were killed by gangsters who held the strings of several local politicians, newspapers and newsstations. His desire for the truth leads to his downfall, where he loses everything he's worked for. The symbiote is like a drug; at first it sends him on heady trips where all his love ones are still alive.

In order to bend Eddie to its will, the symbiote makes it appear as if Spider-Man's meddling has killed the illusionary loved ones Eddie has found on his symbiotic highs. The symbiote would use Spider-Man because it was rejected by Peter and because Spider-Man revealed some unsavory deals Eddie had made in New York to get his stories.

I asked that to go along with if Raimi only were to use the old school villains and not guys like Venom.

[Doc Ock]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Btw did anyone else find the concept of Peter being picked on in college silly? I'm talking about the scene where those two idiots were pea shooting at him in class like a couple of teenagers, and then that other idiot in the front row is reflecting light in his eye.

Honestly Raimi, tone it down!

Yeah I go to college and there can be "bullying" but not in the way shown in the movie.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wooden Alligator

Going off the What-If where we have Vulture, Sandman and New Goblin in 3:

Spider-Man 4: Symbiote, Black-Suit Spider-Man. Villains include Scorpion plus Shocker as a street gang leader and Black Tarantula as his rival. J.J. thinks Symbiote Spider-Man is working with Black Tarantula since they have similar outfits. He's disgusted that the media loves Spider-Man. He funds the creation of Scorpion.

Spider-Man 5: Everyone loves it, so why not a Kraven/Lizard combination. Connors has been researching the herpetology in an attempt to regrow his arm. Kraven comes to New York for reasons of his own to hunt down Black Suite Spider-Man. At the end, Peter abandons the Black Suite.

Spider-Man 6: The symbiote finds Eddie Brock and merges with him. Venom wages a subtle war on Spider-Man. This is an experimental idea, but what if Venom could break off tendrils of the symbiote and use them to manipulate individuals like puppets? I'd have him do that with some of Peter's loved ones who've passed on. At the end Spider-Man settles down with Gwen.

Eddie would be a character throughout; a sleuth who wants to use the power of the press to bring justice dened to him as a child when his parents were killed by gangsters who held the strings of several local politicians, newspapers and newsstations. His desire for the truth leads to his downfall, where he loses everything he's worked for. The symbiote is like a drug; at first it sends him on heady trips where all his love ones are still alive.

In order to bend Eddie to its will, the symbiote makes it appear as if Spider-Man's meddling has killed the illusionary loved ones Eddie has found on his symbiotic highs. The symbiote would use Spider-Man because it was rejected by Peter and because Spider-Man revealed some unsavory deals Eddie had made in New York to get his stories.

How would you have felt if the kid were less an emotional anchor to make us sympathize with Sandman and more a crutch Marko used to justify his decision to pursue a life of crime?

So much symbiote stuff! I love the story of Sandman's kid. I liked him being or trying to be a father and support and love his child instead of just being another criminal.

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Here's something I'd like to bring up to further continue with Joker's question even...say Raimi had his pie and ate it too with only giving us the old school villains, who would've shown up in Spider-Man 4?

Spider-Man - Green Goblin

Spider-Man 2 - Doc Ock

Spider-Man 3 - Vulture, Sandman, New Goblin

Spider-Man 4 - ?

I think it would be good to just have Sandman and New Goblin and maybe save the Vulture for Spidey 4. I think Black Cat would of been a nice addition to the series. A female villian/anti-hero. Kraven might of been cool to eventually see.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

I am sorry everyone. I only wanted to make a better Venom.

Anno, short of reviving Doc Ock, I guess I'd have Mysterio as an arch villain for the trilogy with the third being a variation on the Sinister Six at a New York at war or something.

Anyway, I love Spider-Man 2. Its a simple film, but it has some great performances from Rosemary Harris and James Franco. I'll never forget people on here saying "John has the symbiote, because no one could jump like that", referencing when he jumped and ran to Mary Jane after Ock was taken care of.

[Picard Sisko]

I wouldn't necessarily call Spider-Man 2 simple.

[The Joker]

Nor would I. It's got some strong themes in it which are well executed.

[Picard Sisko]

Agreed.

[Anno_Domini]

Spider-Man 1 may be called a simple film, but Spider-Man 2 was definitely not, imo.

Originally Posted by Mr. Wooden Alligator

Anyway, I love Spider-Man 2. Its a simple film, but it has some great performances from Rosemary Harris and James Franco. I'll never forget people on here saying "John has the symbiote, because no one could jump like that", referencing when he jumped and ran to Mary Jane after Ock was taken care of.

Tbh, if they were to have used the symbiote in the third, they should've used John Jameson in the plot and not just toss the character away after being just some blockade in MJ's life.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Tbh, if they were to have used the symbiote in the third, they should've used John Jameson in the plot and not just toss the character away after being just some blockade in MJ's life.

That's actually what I thought was going to happen. I was puzzled when the symbiote fell randomly from the sky.

[SpideyVille]

So I was just watching a few minutes of SM3 on TV just now, and I was starting to wonder .. there are plenty of bad comic book movies, but SM3 seems to get a lot more hate than most. Is it because it was hyped so much and people thought it was going to be the best Spider-Man movie ever, and it just didn't live up to that hype?

I mean I can admit the movie wasn't great, but to see it be compared with the likes of Batman and Robin or Batman Forever just seems like a stretch.

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

bh, if they were to have used the symbiote in the third, they should've used John Jameson in the plot and not just toss the character away after being just some blockade in MJ's life.

I remember the speculation as to whether Jameson would become Man-Wolf and go after Peter in the third one.

[Venom75]

I fully admit the Spider-man 3 wasn't the best and had it's share of flaws. But,personally,I'm sick of all the Spider-man 3/Venom/symbiote hate.

[Anno_Domini]

It's fine if you're sick of it. But it's definitely well-deserved if you ask me.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by Venom75

I fully admit the Spider-man 3 wasn't the best and had it's share of flaws. But,personally,I'm sick of all the Spider-man 3/Venom/symbiote hate.

Do you think Eddie / Venom was done justice in the film? Because to me he felt shoehorned in, almost as if an afterthought. It really felt like a rushed character.

[SpideyVille]

I personally liked how they turned Eddie into the Anti-Peter and I think his arc works well up until the point where he becomes Venom. I think I had more issues with how Venom was used as opposed to Eddie.

[ThePhantasm]

One thing I did like in Spidey 3 was how Harry was killed by his own glider while trying to protect Peter from it instead of trying to kill him with it. And, after all those years of accusing Spiderman of killing his father, Harry was impaled by an actual evil version of Spidey... Venom.

[Anno_Domini]

Sucks to go to Heaven and ask God what happened and God's reply is: "You died from a guy that only had fifteen seconds of fame."

[The Joker]

Eddie's request to God to kill Peter was beyond stupid. Didn't he ever hear of one of God's seven commandments called 'Thou shalt not kill'.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by The Joker

Eddie's request to God to kill Peter was beyond stupid. Didn't he ever hear of one of God's seven commandments called 'Thou shalt not kill'.

Yeah, that part was just bizarre.

[Venom75]

What I'm tired of is how most people treat Spider-man 3 like the Bin Laden of comic book films. It's absolutely hated and despised. Again,it's flawed,but I don't really find it to be the piece of trash that alot claim it is. It has alot of good parts to it. And it's not even you guys here,but it constantly seems to make everyone's "worst ever" lists. Flawed? Yes. A disappointment? Sure. But a horrible,unforgiveable curse upon cinema? Um,no. But when people use the word hate...well,that's a pretty strong word.

And,of course I'm a HUGE Venom fan. And I do hate how he was treated in the film. But what I'm getting from alot of people here is that Venom and the symbiote ruined the film,as if their appearance alone caused the downfall of the film. I keep hearing about the good old "old school villians" and how Venom and alot of newer bad guys should never be in a Spider-man film. Venom and the symbiote didn't "ruin" the movie. Bad writing did. If Raimi and the writers knew the character and what the symbiote represented,and maybe had a better idea of how he was supposed to be used then the movie wouldn't have been so "bad," as many say. Sam didn't get the character. Ok,that's fine. But what about everyone else who worked on the movie. Surely,someone should know something about Venom? What about Topher Grace? The guy who claimed he was such a huge Venom fan? If I were him,I would've went up to Sam or the writiers and say,"Um,guys....Venom wouldn't say this,or act this way." I also hear of alot about how poor Sam Raimi was forced to put Venom in the film by the evil madman known as Avi Arad. I think that's bull. Did Arad hold a gun to Sam's head? Arad suggested Venom for the movie because alot of people wanted to see him and he's a fan favorite. There was nothing wrong with that thinking. Venom,without a doubt would have brought the film up a few rungs on the excitement ladder and brought more people in to see Spidey 3. And Venom did do that(Spider-man 3 set the opening record of 150 million at the time),but once people saw how he was under used and how overcrowded the plot was;etc,etc...they stayed away. Alot of people are to blame for the film(Arad included),but Sam and the writers are the main ones I point the finger at,not Venom or the symbiote or Arad. They could've taken out Sandman or told Arad to save Venom for part 4,or not turned Peter "emo," or used so many corny moments or given the film a more serious tone. Maybe Sam's heart wasn't in it(he had nothing on his mind but Spider-man since 1999)and was suffering from burnout,I don't know. But I hate hearing how the introduction of the symbiote and Venom caused the film to be terrible. If anything,that made it more interesting. Even if you weren't a Venom fan,seeing Peter's darkside,the inner struggle he goes through and the fall of Eddie Brock would've been a hell of alot more interesting,fun and different than seeing the same old film again with Sandman and Vulture(yawn). But like I said,the filmmakers,writers and director is more to blame than Venom himself.

[Venom75]

And as far as Eddie's line goes,of wanting "God to kill Peter Parker." Well,it was weird,but it made sense to me. Eddie is starting to lose it and clearly has so much anger in him that he can't help it. He wants revenge and is severly depressed. I've never asked God to kill anyone,but I have wished for bad luck or horrible things to befall someone either through God,fate or whatever....like my lying ex girlfriend,or friends who have just used me Sometimes people who lose it can't be explained. You can't make sense out of insanity. Not every villain needs a clean and perfect backstory of how he went nuts. That's not the way it works in real life either.

[Anno_Domini]

With Venom being my favorite Spidey villain, I think saying HATE is absolutely fine. I respect Raimi being a fan of the more old school villains and that he never understood the villain, but I still hate the way he was portrayed as well as his fifteen seconds of fame, his "face time" and the overall lack of respect for the villain and it is a lack of respect when that comic called The Black gave us a better look at Venom than the actual film itself.

Originally Posted by The Joker

Eddie's request to God to kill Peter was beyond stupid. Didn't he ever hear of one of God's seven commandments called 'Thou shalt not kill'.

Joker, I'd like to ask you this...I've been thinking about this for a while of how I'd like it if Eddie only asked God for the ability to kill Peter in a sick fashion of thinking God would help him rather than just asking God to kill him. What do you think?

Eddie asks God the ability or power to kill Peter and that is when he hears Peter/the symbiote's screams and that's when Eddie finds the symbiote, and believing it's from God since it's falling "from the sky".

[The Joker]

It's not AS stupid as Eddie asking God to kill someone for him. But it's still asking God to participate in the killing of someone. But then I don't know why Brock would ask for the ability to kill Peter. As far as Brock knows Peter is just a normal guy and can be killed by any conventional method. Gun, knife, run him over with a car etc.

He shouldn't need God's help for that.

[Anno_Domini]

True, he doesn't need God at all, but with him him doing it anyways in the film, I thought what I thought of would've been the better way to go.

Imo, he shouldn't have asked God anything in the first place, nor do I think being at the church even works in any scenario(I prefer what they did in TSSM), but being at a church and asking God to do anything, it should've been just to ask God to give him the power to do so.

[BlueLightning]

I believe that in the comics, Eddie Brock is catholic, and after his life is wrecked he contemplates suicide and then goes to the church to ask God for forgiveness. The symbiote is there and it bonds with him.

In the movie though, it was very off. Not something you expect from a person of such beliefs.

[Venom75]

He wants Peter dead,but he's most likely too scared to do it himself. He's unbalanced,but not a murderer(the symbiote will change that). Maybe if he asks God to do it,he'll feel like he's off the hook?