Who else hated Batman's portrayal in JUSTICE LEAGUE (Timm)?

[Grommers]

Hell, I didn't mind the once in a blue moon batman episodes, if I wanted to watch Batman all the time I would of watched B:TAS.

I think he was in the series the right amount, and portrayed in the right way.


As for superman, I never saw S:TAS, so I can't compare the two. The only episode I've ever seen of that was the crossover between Batman/superman. I however liked his portrayal in Justice League, as it really shows hes conflicting with the amount of power he truly has, which shows the necessity of the other heroes to keep him into place. (e.g. the episode where there forced by GL to work as a team, i forget the name).

It added a very nice character to the team as well as a nice conflict. I could only ever see Hal Jordan being able to replace superman with that conflict given personalitys, but I was more glad to see John Stewart, as his conflicts were much different than anyone else on the team.



Anyways back on to batman....his shining moment to me was always the end of the 2nd season where he tells everyones each others identidy's the way he did it, was just so dark and deep, that to me it showed how bruce wayne was always just a "show" and batman is his true character at that point.

[UA-Archangel]

Originally Posted by pwl4life

well can you blame him? he's only human yet he's more valuable to the league than half it's members. besides in the comics he was ALOT worse

Not to mention he's did it deliberately so that the rest of the league don't become complacent about him.

[tekken]

i liked batman in JLU. he's a jerk because he can be. he thinks he's smarter tahn everyone else because he is. he's conceited because he can be.

hahaha. besides,...this batman's been through a lot of crap. didnt tim get owned by the joker by that point? but then again tim appeared in one of the JL episodes at the superman funeral. continuity is strange in timmverse.

[UA-Archangel]

Originally Posted by tekken

i liked batman in JLU. he's a jerk because he can be. he thinks he's smarter tahn everyone else because he is. he's conceited because he can be.

hahaha. besides,...this batman's been through a lot of crap. didnt tim get owned by the joker by that point? but then again tim appeared in one of the JL episodes at the superman funeral. continuity is strange in timmverse.

It's also deliberate on his part.

Partly because he's a driven individual. Partly because he knows that it's the one way he can keep their respect.

[larryfilmmaker]

Originally Posted by C. W. Saturn

He is such a self-righteous jerk in that series. If he had behaved the same way in BTAS I would've never become a fan of him. In his own series he was much more likable. But in JL? An ***hole.

I was actually thinking the other day of how much I liked Bruce Wayne better in the original BTAS... back when Wayne and Batman had different voices and back when Wayne was a nice guy, not a complete dip ****. I still LIKE the later Batman, I just think it's over the top at times.

There's a scene where Orion says he would never attend some honorary event for The Flash and Batman just looks at Orion without a word... and Orion, intimidated, agrees to go. To me, that's just WAY too over the top. Bruce Timm basically made Batman God-like with every bit of luck in his favor and dumbed down all the heroes around him. Flash is usually fast enough to take out one super villain but not two, Superman gets floored by car bombs or a rocket launcher, etc... but Batman is always on the ball and outdoing everybody.

I love Batman too much to care a lot, but it does get old.

[Finlandman]

Originally Posted by tekken

i liked batman in JLU. he's a jerk because he can be. he thinks he's smarter tahn everyone else because he is. he's conceited because he can be.

hahaha. besides,...this batman's been through a lot of crap. didnt tim get owned by the joker by that point? but then again tim appeared in one of the JL episodes at the superman funeral. continuity is strange in timmverse.

Events of Return of the Joker happened obviously after the JLU. Joker died in that flashback, but he appereared twice on the Justice League.

[Bat-Mite]

I actually liked how Batman was even more of a jerk in JLU. It seemed to fit in with the DCAU depiction of him rather well. In my view, the DCAU Batman becomes more of a jerk with the passage of time. It seems he's more humane in the first season of the Animated Series, where we see the Grey Ghost episode and Batman interacting with kids more (The Underdwellers and I've Got Batman In My Basement.. I know, a lot of people like to pretend those episodes don't exist ). Appointment in Crime Alley is another good example of his more human side.

Then he seems to become more obsessed with the mission as time goes on, resulting in Dick leaving him (a decision heavily influenced by Batman beating a man in front of his family). Obviously, Batman becomes even worse in JL and JLU, ultimately resulting in the ultra douche that we see in Batman Beyond - a man who has grown so cold that he almost lets Terry be beaten to death for stealing his bat suit.

From "Old Wounds":
Robin: [You're] Batgirl!? I still can't believe it! How could you keep something like this from me?
Batgirl: You weren't exactly honest with me, either.
Robin: But you told him.
Batgirl: He knew.
Batman: It wasn't my place to tell you.
Robin: But it was your place to put her in danger!
Batgirl: It wasn't like that! I volunteered.
Robin: You think you did! You don't know him like I do. He manipulates, pulls strings. Anything to get what he wants.

There's a very similar speech about Batman from Terry in JLU: "Epilogue". This is from two of the people closest to him. Bottom line, Bats was a jerk long before and long after he joined the League.

[November Rain]

Does anyone have an idea when they think he lost it.

I'm going to go with the return of the phantasm. That probably shook him up more than anything else. The first batch of his humanity was removed when andrea first left him, she took out the dregs with her second coming. That was probably when he started being more batman and less bruce wayne.

[Grommers]

I never looked at him as a jerk, I just looked at him as a man with dedication, and knows the goal he wants/has to achieve, and what to do to get them,

I don't think it was manipulation like Terry/Grayson/Barbara said, I think it was devotion to a cause that inspired what he wanted in Terry/Grayson/Barbara

[Etienne]

Originally Posted by larryfilmmaker

I was actually thinking the other day of how much I liked Bruce Wayne better in the original BTAS... back when Wayne and Batman had different voices and back when Wayne was a nice guy, not a complete dip ****. I still LIKE the later Batman, I just think it's over the top at times.

There's a scene where Orion says he would never attend some honorary event for The Flash and Batman just looks at Orion without a word... and Orion, intimidated, agrees to go. To me, that's just WAY too over the top. Bruce Timm basically made Batman God-like with every bit of luck in his favor and dumbed down all the heroes around him. Flash is usually fast enough to take out one super villain but not two, Superman gets floored by car bombs or a rocket launcher, etc... but Batman is always on the ball and outdoing everybody.

I love Batman too much to care a lot, but it does get old.

YES THANK YOU! That's exactly what I've been saying in multiple threads including this one. I miss that (BTAS) Bruce Wayne.

Come to think of it this is why I enjoy Rino Romano's Bruce Wayne. I wish his Batman had a more different voice than his Bruce and, I think I could have enjoyed his Bruce/Batman more if the episodes were just as engaging as BTAS.

[Léo Ho Tep]

I prefer Bruce in the first three seasons of TAS as well, because he's a more well rounded character. But The JLU episode "epilogue" shows his human side in a smart and touching way, just like "old wounds" did in TNBA.

[CaptainStacy]

Originally Posted by Bat-Mite

I actually liked how Batman was even more of a jerk in JLU. It seemed to fit in with the DCAU depiction of him rather well. In my view, the DCAU Batman becomes more of a jerk with the passage of time. It seems he's more humane in the first season of the Animated Series, where we see the Grey Ghost episode and Batman interacting with kids more (The Underdwellers and I've Got Batman In My Basement.. I know, a lot of people like to pretend those episodes don't exist ). Appointment in Crime Alley is another good example of his more human side.

Then he seems to become more obsessed with the mission as time goes on, resulting in Dick leaving him (a decision heavily influenced by Batman beating a man in front of his family). Obviously, Batman becomes even worse in JL and JLU, ultimately resulting in the ultra douche that we see in Batman Beyond - a man who has grown so cold that he almost lets Terry be beaten to death for stealing his bat suit.

That"s a pretty good evaluation of the character.

[The Englishman]

Originally Posted by November Rain

Does anyone have an idea when they think he lost it.

I'm going to go with the return of the phantasm. That probably shook him up more than anything else. The first batch of his humanity was removed when andrea first left him, she took out the dregs with her second coming. That was probably when he started being more batman and less bruce wayne.

I agree. When I think of the continuity of the DCAU I like to place Mask of the Phantasm between B:TAS and TNBA. To me it seems a perfect reason for the transition in the tone of Batman.

[SHADOWBAT69]

Wasn't a fan myself of the JL/JLU Bats. In all of the recent animated incarnations my top pick has always been the B:TAS characterization. I wasn't even that found of the TNBA version.

[BH/HHH]

I liked him on Batman the animated series but they made too much if a big deal out of him when they got round to JLU. I hated the way he always had to make Superman look an idiot and the whole bathos stuff (the world will always need a Batman, etc).

[ThePhantasm]

I love Timmverse Bats. He does get to be more of a jerk as things go along. BTAS is his younger self, then he is older in JL, and by the time he gets to Beyond he's almost humorless. Its such a consistent progression it almost certainly is deliberate. Being Batman that long through your life would tend to have that effect I'd think.

[Robin91939]

Originally Posted by tekken

i liked batman in JLU. he's a jerk because he can be. he thinks he's smarter tahn everyone else because he is. he's conceited because he can be.

hahaha. besides,...this batman's been through a lot of crap. didnt tim get owned by the joker by that point? but then again tim appeared in one of the JL episodes at the superman funeral. continuity is strange in timmverse.

The "Flashback" scene in Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker is after Justice League: Unlimited.

The Joker appears in Justice League: Unlimited, he dies in the flashback of Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker. The costumes from flashback to the other episodes are an error, but you can just assume after his time with the Justice League he changed back to the costume he wore during Batman: Gotham Knights.

As far as Batman being rude, cocky, arrogant, conceited, reckless and not a "nice" person...

Batman isn't a nice person. Batman is a bad guy. He's a villain, breaking the law for the betterment of society. That's who he is.

He has altruistic goals. He has hope. But it's a constant struggle for him, because there is a monster within him that's deep down that if he gives into -- he wouldn't be able to stop it. That's why he doesn't kill. Not because killing is wrong. (That's a factor, but not the main or only). He doesn't kill because he's the most skilled man in the world. If he killed, he knows he might give in to the hate and the demons in his soul and not be able to stop. He is always walking that slippery slope.

From Batman: HUSH:

"If Clark wanted to, he could use his superspeed and squish me into the cement. But I know how he thinks. Even more than the kryptonite, he's got one big weakness. Deep down, Clark's essentially a good person...and deep down, I'm not. " - Batman

-R

[the5timechamp]

I didnt like the change once TNBA kicked in...
I guess its consistent to what would happen to someone who is exposed to the kinds of things batman gets exposed to.

Bats is my favorite character so its easy to turn a blind eye at him getting put on a platform at the expense of others.....

[Drakepool]

Not at all; quite the opposite, actually. My all-time favorite animated Batman moment is in "Epilogue" when he's comforting Ace at the swing-set just before she dies.

[Léo Ho Tep]

Agreed, it was a great character moment. The whole episode was awesome in that regard, because it shows that even old Bruce has a golden heart.

[Bman32x]

I understand where you're coming from, but for what is primarily geared as a children's TV show, there was only so much Timm could do creatively limited to divulge fully on Batmans psychology dealing with multiple super powered humanoids. Become too attached and too trusting, than he would be incapable of being able to have the contingency plan to stop them if they decided to team up and enslave humanity. The fleshed out result of this is: the Justice Lords story arc, and upcoming for Injustice Gods Among Us. You really want to see this mentality, "Justice League: Doom" I think gives the best defense of Batmans mindset of why the Justice League isn't a good idea.

You also have to consider: At this point in TAS universe, Dick Grayson walked out on him and he was 2nd guessing having a sidekick putting a child in harms way to further his crusade against crime and just before The Cadmus Project nightmare, which in TAS universe resulted in Batmans biggest failure losing Tim Drake as Robin. Did they every specify WHEN that happened in the cannon storyline by the way? The only reference I can recall was in JLU: Epilogue and Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker it's quoted by Terry McGuiness Amanda Waller as "left over Cadmus technology". So did Batman come back to Gotham from the Justice League and that's why Tim was alone on patrol? Does he resent Superman for it as well?

[Bman32x]

Originally Posted by Drakepool

Not at all; quite the opposite, actually. My all-time favorite animated Batman moment is in "Epilogue" when he's comforting Ace at the swing-set just before she dies.

Moment of clarity: isn't Bruce Wayne's dog in Batman Beyond named Ace as well? Is that a coincidence?

[Drakepool]

Originally Posted by Bman32x

Moment of clarity: isn't Bruce Wayne's dog in Batman Beyond named Ace as well? Is that a coincidence?

Coincidence, but they retconned it so that Bruce named his dog after Ace.

[Shikamaru]

Originally Posted by C. W. Saturn

In JL he is more like the 90s/early-00s comics all the time. As I put it: Unlikeable. Cannot understand why this guy has fans. I mean, look at the episode where the JL members become kids and Wonder WOman asks Batman if he likes it to be a kid again and Batman answers something like "I've never been a child since I turned 9" or something similar. C'mon, THIS is the guy who had a "Grey Ghost's Lair" replica in his batcave in BTAS.

How exactly does him saying that make him a douchebag? That applies to all incarnations of Batman including the Batman in TAS. And having a Grey Ghost Lair replica doesn't really make him a child. That's more of a nerdy thing. Fans in their late teens, 20's, and even 30's have things like that yet are not considered childish - just hardcore fans. So I don't see how that means there is still a kid inside of him.

Plus, I always thought from the beginning that Batman having all that GG merchandise and layout replica in his batcave was out of character for him. If anything, JLU fixed that problem with that line.

[Shikamaru]

I personally loved Batman in JL & JLU and consider Timm's Batman to be the perfect Batman to write in the Justice League. He isn't the ridiculously overpowered Batgod that he is sometimes in the comics yet is still pretty badass and has the prep time I personally love.

I've been seeing a lot of unfair criticisms towards Batman with the JL for the past few years. It seems like whenever Batman takes down a superpowered villain with the JL, he is always labelled as overpowered even when it occassionally makes sense. I've even seen JL stories where Batman just fights side by side with Superman, Wonder Woman, and Green Lantern with no badass moments or "Batman saves the day!" moments that still get criticized for having Batgod problems. It really seems to me that some people just can't grasp the idea of Batman being in the Justice League period and will label him as an overpowered writer-worshiped Batgod regardless of what he does or doesn't do. Are there moments where he has been overpowered by some fans? Yes. I'm going to admit that as a hardcore Batman fan. But I'm beginning to see more and more people in the opposite direction too - people that underpower Batman and are shocked at anything Batman manages to pull off while fighting next to the rest of the JL and label it as PIS.

As for why he has so many moments to shine, it is for the same reason Superman has so many moments to shine - they are equal. Batman and Superman aren't just the most popular DC characters in real life. They're also the superheroes that carry the most weight in the DC universe. It has been this way since their inception. They have always been seen as equals in abilities overall. Batman was created as the yang to Superman's ying. What one can do, the other can't. And what one can't do, the other can. Kane and Finger even said back when they created Batman "Unlike Superman, he didn't have any powers. So I gave him gadgets and intelligence to make up for it". This means they're both equally capable of solving a situation. They just have different ways of doing it. For example, both Superman and Batman are equally capable of defeating an alien threat. The difference is that Superman would give it his best to physically destroy the threat while Batman would give it his best to come up with a strategy on how to destroy the threat.

Superman is essentially the brawn and Batman is the brains. They need each other in order to complete each other. That's why they work so well together. And naturally, Batman's brains have to be equally proportional to Superman's brawns and Superman's brawns have to be equally intelligent to Batman's brains. That's why Batman is smart enough to get out of many situations when with the JL. Also, Batman having the brain and Superman having the brawn does not mean at all that Superman is dumb - just that it is not the main ability that makes him stand out. Same thing applies to Batman. Superman having the brawns doesn't mean that Batman is physically weak (he's one of the world's greatest martial artists) but he is known for his intelligence the most and that is the ability that stands out the most.