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Old 01-25-2013, 03:32 PM   #126
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Default Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

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Let's see, just as an example, on The Dark Knight Returns it's implied that he quit because of the death of Jason Todd. That's a good enough reason to quit, someone that was under his care died, and he felt guilty about it. On Batman Beyond, in the first episode "Rebirth Part I" the reason was physical, he was unable to keep going due to old age. Now let's analyze the background of the Nolan Bat-Films. Bruce does not want to be Batman forever. The ambitions of Bruce are aimed a little higher, a little bigger. On Gotham things are different, it's a unique case in which corruption and crime runs rampant on the city, and the police can't do a thing to stop it, in fact it's part of the problem. The system is broken. A fascinating aspect is that Batman is born out of a need. This is taking directly from Frank Miller's Year One. If the police and the government did their job as they should, there would be no need for Batman.

So Bruce sets his aims on eradicating the root of the problem. It's not about common muggins and robberies. It's the root that causes this problem. In Begins is reflected in the form of Joe Chill. He is the byproduct of the actions of the organized crime and the corruption has done to the city. Creating poverty and hunger. This is also taking from a comic book, The Dark Knight Returns in the first part of the book, where Bruce comes to an understanding of Joe Chills actions and the murder of his parents. At the same time, he wants to inspire people, to shake them out of apathy, and become a symbol for Gotham. Restore the damage, taking Gotham from the hands of crime to their people. Restoring the police, as channeled by his alliance with Jim Gordon, and moving the powerful people into action.

This works in the form of Harvey Dent. This is a man that idealizes Bruce's ambitions, a person with a face that can do things right without resorting to Batman's tactics. He sees that he is almost accomplished what he has set up to do. At the beginning of The Dark Knight we see that things have improved, criminals are scared on the streets, the mob is cornered and people have hope. We also see the unexpected consequences of Bruce's actions too. At the same time Harvey Dent rose, The Joker made his move. We see good people like the Citizens for Batman trying to do good things in the wrong way too. On the other hand, Bruce has this inherent desire for being happy, in his mind to overcome pain and move one, idealized in Rachel Dawes. This is brought upon various interpretations of Batman. See Mask of the Phantasm, where Bruce considers giving up being Batman by the return of Andrea Beaumont.

And all of this fails. The Joker does his act: kills Rachel, breaks Harvey and attempts to gain the upper hand on Gotham's soul. All of Harvey's good deeds could go into the drain if the truth of Two-Face came up to the public. Everything Bruce has done would be lost, people would lose hope. So they cover it up. It is a lie, but Bruce takes on the weight of it, taking the blame, becoming the villian, being hunted.

So at the beginning of Rises, we see a shattered man. He cannot continue being Batman. There is no need. The Dent Act sweep off the remains of the organized crime. If he would make an apparition as Batman for a minor thing, he would be hunted, bringing the police after him, and giving Gordon more pain to deal. (And this happens on Rises) There is no reason powerful enough to go on. As Bruce Wayne he has also lost so many. His project for giving the people of Gotham free clean energy has gone awry. Something that could potentially improve the quality of life of the Gothamites, and namely something he could do as a Wayne, has deemed to be potentially dangerous and is shut down, lossing a lot of money of his company in the way. He only awaits for death.

When Bane and the League of Shadows makes it's apparition, Bruce is mentally and physically broken. He needs to overcome pain and gain a new found respect for his own life. The film takes other points, like Blake being an embodiment for what Bruce idealized on Harvey Dent, albeit in a different manner. Inspiring the people to defend themselves, represented by Gotham's police. Changing Selina's views on the world. And finally, after there is no more to give, he has to make a choice.

So the movie shifts its focus. It's not about saving Gotham, we kinda know that Batman will save it. It's about Bruce saving himself. And because of the journey of this man (as stated somewhat briefly before), we want him to succeed.

Also worth nothing, we do not see Bruce being "happy go-lucky", we see a mature Bruce giving life another chance, a beginning of a new journey.

In my book, he earned this in spades.

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Old 01-25-2013, 03:33 PM   #127
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Default Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

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Originally Posted by BlueLightning View Post
Let's see, just as an example, on The Dark Knight Returns it's implied that he quit because of the death of Jason Todd. That's a good enough reason to quit, someone that was under his care died, and he felt guilty about it. On Batman Beyond, in the first episode "Rebirth Part I" the reason was physical, he was unable to keep going due to old age. Now let's analyze the background of the Nolan Bat-Films. Bruce does not want to be Batman forever. The ambitions of Bruce are aimed a little higher, a little bigger. On Gotham things are different, it's a unique case in which corruption and crime runs rampant on the city, and the police can't do a thing to stop it, in fact it's part of the problem. The system is broken. A fascinating aspect is that Batman is born out of a need. This is taking directly from Frank Miller's Year One. If the police and the government did their job as they should, there would be no need for Batman.

So Bruce sets his aims on eradicating the root of the problem. It's not about common muggins and robberies. It's the root that causes this problem. In Begins is reflected in the form of Joe Chill. He is the byproduct of the actions of the organized crime and the corruption has done to the city. Creating poverty and hunger. This is also taking from a comic book, The Dark Knight Returns in the first part of the book, where Bruce comes to an understanding of Joe Chills actions and the murder of his parents. At the same time, he wants to inspire people, to shake them out of apathy, and become a symbol for Gotham. Restore the damage, taking Gotham from the hands of crime to their people. Restoring the police, as channeled by his alliance with Jim Gordon, and moving the powerful people into action.

This works in the form of Harvey Dent. This is a man that idealizes Bruce's ambitions, a person with a face that can do things right without resorting to Batman's tactics. He sees that he is almost accomplished what he has set up to do. At the beginning of The Dark Knight we see that things have improved, criminals are scared on the streets, the mob is cornered and people have hope. We also see the unexpected consequences of Bruce's actions too. At the same time Harvey Dent rose, The Joker made his move. We see good people like the Citizens for Batman trying to do good things in the wrong way too. On the other hand, Bruce has this inherent desire for being happy, in his mind to overcome pain and move one, idealized in Rachel Dawes. This is brought upon various interpretations of Batman. See Mask of the Phantasm, where Bruce considers giving up being Batman by the return of Andrea Beaumont.

And all of this fails. The Joker does his act: kills Rachel, breaks Harvey and attempts to gain the upper hand on Gotham's soul. All of Harvey's good deeds could go into the drain if the truth of Two-Face came up to the public. Everything Bruce has done would be lost, people would lose hope. So they cover it up. It is a lie, but Bruce takes on the weight of it, taking the blame, becoming the villian, being hunted.

So at the beginning of Rises, we see a shattered man. He cannot continue being Batman. There is no need. The Dent Act sweep off the remains of the organized crime. If he would make an apparition as Batman for a minor thing, he would be hunted, bringing the police after him, and giving Gordon more pain to deal. (And this happens on Rises) There is no reason powerful enough to go on. As Bruce Wayne he has also lost so many. His project for giving the people of Gotham free clean energy has gone awry. Something that could potentially improve the quality of life of the Gothamites, and namely something he could do as a Wayne, has deemed to be potentially dangerous and is shut down, lossing a lot of money of his company in the way. He only awaits for death.

When Bane and the League of Shadows makes it's apparition, Bruce is mentally and physically broken. He needs to overcome pain and gain a new found respect for his own life. The film takes other points, like Blake being an embodiment for what Bruce idealized on Harvey Dent, albeit in a different manner. Inspiring the people to defend themselves, represented by Gotham's police. Changing Selina's views on the world. And finally, after there is no more to give, he has to make a choice.

So the movie shifts its focus. It's not about saving Gotham, we kinda know that Batman will save it. It's about Bruce saving himself. And because of the journey of this man (as stated somewhat briefly before), we want him to succeed.

Also worth nothing, we do not see Bruce being "happy go-lucky", we see a mature Bruce giving life another chance, a beginning of a new journey.

In my book, he earned this in spades.

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Old 01-25-2013, 03:34 PM   #128
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Default Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

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Saying time continuity is irrelevant is really making it less important than it should be, imo.
I think looking at story-telling from a more classical , and very conservative point of view , you may be right. But in this sort of movie series , especially the way Nolan writes his stories and his structures , i dont necessarily agree. Im not talking about the kids. That's a huge blunder. Im talking about how time elapses in the movie , how he details his progress. Stuff happens without we knowing exactly the window of time. We have clues , but nothing definitive or substantial to the story. Because its unnecessary (maybe a better word than irrelevant )

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Nolan did develop events in those time intervals, and he leaves enough clues for such events and to set things up. For example on TDKR , the choice of 8 years serves to get us to that moment of Bruce's life and the consequences of his acts. But there is also state what happened in that interval. Bruce heals physically (to an extent, remember the tremendous beating he took on the previous film), the truth of Harvey Dent being uncovered leads to him being hailed as a hero and Batman as a wanted criminal, the consequential Dent Act gives the police the tools to erradicate organized crime and renders Batman without a purpose. Bruce decides to put his mind on the energy project (attracting Miranda Tate's attention), later he finds out that the project is too dangerous, that failure is the last straw and recluses himself in the mansion. That information is shown to the viewer on the context of TDKR.

Same between Begins and TDK: Batman is taking down the mob with aid of Liutenant Gordon and hunting down the remaining Arkham inmates that were set free, also giving the remaining population the antidote for the fear toxin. The Joker begins his rise to power, Harvey Dent is elected district attorney, Bruce Wayne moves to the city. Batman's actions lead the mob to the breaking point. This is shown to the viewer on the context of TDK and elaborated more on the viral marketing.

There are other details that I like too, like the reconstruction of the monorail.
Yes , but you said it right . We know time passed and what happened. But we specifically dont know when it happened. Only the Miranda dialogue clearly tells us something more precise (the importance being differentiating Batman's disappearing and Bruce's exile) . But that's just the way these movies treat time. Its very elastic. That's why there's always doubts concerning the time that elapsed. Nothing that wouldn't be easy to put in the movie. But he his purposefully diffuse.

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Old 01-25-2013, 03:36 PM   #129
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Default Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

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Batman has quit before but not for a stupid reason like they described and for 8 years. That's absurd. He is rewarded for doing nothing for 8 years by getting a happy ending. No I don't like it. If he was proactive and still being Batman I might be a little more accepting to him having a happy ending. But he didn't really deserve one. Now, real Batman also should and would not accept a happy ending. That's part of why people love him. He refuses to take the easy route. He would rather die helping as much as he can.
Real Batman ?

Are you the real Batman ?

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Old 01-25-2013, 04:09 PM   #130
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Default Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

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Batman has quit before but not for a stupid reason like they described and for 8 years. That's absurd. He is rewarded for doing nothing for 8 years by getting a happy ending. No I don't like it. If he was proactive and still being Batman I might be a little more accepting to him having a happy ending. But he didn't really deserve one. Now, real Batman also should and would not accept a happy ending. That's part of why people love him. He refuses to take the easy route. He would rather die helping as much as he can.
Stupid reason? Such as....not letting Joker have his "win" by keeping the good and clean name of Harvey Dent without letting Gotham lose its hope? Alas, it happened anyways, but at least organized crime was already taken out of the situation by then and something else was dirtying up Gotham at that time with the LoS.

And he wasn't awarded a happy ending for nothing. He returned, finally gave Gotham the "face" that inspired hope and a symbol that is everlasting even if Bruce Wayne is no longer Batman. The definitely warrants a happy ending.

And one last thing...look at The Dark Knight when saying how Batman doesn't take the easy route. He sacrificed, literally, his own life as Batman to keep Dent's name clean. That's a sacrifice Batman will do, so I still don't see how unreal Nolan's Batman is. I don't think you do either to be perfectly honest.

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If Batman never retired and was on top of his game the league would have never even been able to sneak in an atom bomb and infiltrate gotham.
Me thinks you didn't pay attention to TDKR if you thought they snuck in an atom bomb to Gotham.

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Let's see, just as an example, on The Dark Knight Returns it's implied that he quit because of the death of Jason Todd. That's a good enough reason to quit, someone that was under his care died, and he felt guilty about it. On Batman Beyond, in the first episode "Rebirth Part I" the reason was physical, he was unable to keep going due to old age. Now let's analyze the background of the Nolan Bat-Films. Bruce does not want to be Batman forever. The ambitions of Bruce are aimed a little higher, a little bigger. On Gotham things are different, it's a unique case in which corruption and crime runs rampant on the city, and the police can't do a thing to stop it, in fact it's part of the problem. The system is broken. A fascinating aspect is that Batman is born out of a need. This is taking directly from Frank Miller's Year One. If the police and the government did their job as they should, there would be no need for Batman.

So Bruce sets his aims on eradicating the root of the problem. It's not about common muggins and robberies. It's the root that causes this problem. In Begins is reflected in the form of Joe Chill. He is the byproduct of the actions of the organized crime and the corruption has done to the city. Creating poverty and hunger. This is also taking from a comic book, The Dark Knight Returns in the first part of the book, where Bruce comes to an understanding of Joe Chills actions and the murder of his parents. At the same time, he wants to inspire people, to shake them out of apathy, and become a symbol for Gotham. Restore the damage, taking Gotham from the hands of crime to their people. Restoring the police, as channeled by his alliance with Jim Gordon, and moving the powerful people into action.

This works in the form of Harvey Dent. This is a man that idealizes Bruce's ambitions, a person with a face that can do things right without resorting to Batman's tactics. He sees that he is almost accomplished what he has set up to do. At the beginning of The Dark Knight we see that things have improved, criminals are scared on the streets, the mob is cornered and people have hope. We also see the unexpected consequences of Bruce's actions too. At the same time Harvey Dent rose, The Joker made his move. We see good people like the Citizens for Batman trying to do good things in the wrong way too. On the other hand, Bruce has this inherent desire for being happy, in his mind to overcome pain and move one, idealized in Rachel Dawes. This is brought upon various interpretations of Batman. See Mask of the Phantasm, where Bruce considers giving up being Batman by the return of Andrea Beaumont.

And all of this fails. The Joker does his act: kills Rachel, breaks Harvey and attempts to gain the upper hand on Gotham's soul. All of Harvey's good deeds could go into the drain if the truth of Two-Face came up to the public. Everything Bruce has done would be lost, people would lose hope. So they cover it up. It is a lie, but Bruce takes on the weight of it, taking the blame, becoming the villian, being hunted.

So at the beginning of Rises, we see a shattered man. He cannot continue being Batman. There is no need. The Dent Act sweep off the remains of the organized crime. If he would make an apparition as Batman for a minor thing, he would be hunted, bringing the police after him, and giving Gordon more pain to deal. (And this happens on Rises) There is no reason powerful enough to go on. As Bruce Wayne he has also lost so many. His project for giving the people of Gotham free clean energy has gone awry. Something that could potentially improve the quality of life of the Gothamites, and namely something he could do as a Wayne, has deemed to be potentially dangerous and is shut down, lossing a lot of money of his company in the way. He only awaits for death.

When Bane and the League of Shadows makes it's apparition, Bruce is mentally and physically broken. He needs to overcome pain and gain a new found respect for his own life. The film takes other points, like Blake being an embodiment for what Bruce idealized on Harvey Dent, albeit in a different manner. Inspiring the people to defend themselves, represented by Gotham's police. Changing Selina's views on the world. And finally, after there is no more to give, he has to make a choice.

So the movie shifts its focus. It's not about saving Gotham, we kinda know that Batman will save it. It's about Bruce saving himself. And because of the journey of this man (as stated somewhat briefly before), we want him to succeed.

Also worth nothing, we do not see Bruce being "happy go-lucky", we see a mature Bruce giving life another chance, a beginning of a new journey.

In my book, he earned this in spades.

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Old 01-25-2013, 04:44 PM   #131
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Th Smile Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

Blue lightning... Seriously


Wicked.. Wicked RAD post

Well done, respec'

And I might I add... Anyone nitpicking about TDkR without paying proper attention should read that post... There endeth the lesson.

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Old 01-25-2013, 05:00 PM   #132
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I'd also add that Bruce was not only paralyzed by his inability to be Batman, and the failure of his energy project, but also by not letting himself find love, as he made Rachel his 'one chance for a normal life'. He had no purpose in any aspect of his life, thus leading him to become a recluse, waiting for things to wrong again, to give him a sense of purpose.

(and note that all 3 aspects that shut Bruce down are based on lies. The lie of Harvey Dent, the lie that his energy project failed, and the lie that Rachel chose Bruce)

By the end, the truth had surfaced, painful as it was, but necessary, and Bruce was able to give the city its true symbol of hope and bring it out of apathy (and a protector in case things go wrong again), he succeed in "Bruce Wayne's" philanthropic efforts with the boys' home, and was able to let himself find love again (first with Miranda, and then with Selina, when Talia lay a bombshell on him that could have had him regress, had it not been the quick arrival and reminder of others like Selina).


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Old 01-25-2013, 05:02 PM   #133
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I'd also add that Bruce was not only paralyzed by his inability to be Batman, and the failure of his energy project, but by having no personal life, as he made Rachel his 'one chance for a normal life'. He had no purpose in any aspect of his life
Boy, when you put it like that...

Really sounds like a horrible, shallow and boring portrayal of Bruce Wayne.

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Old 01-25-2013, 05:20 PM   #134
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Boy, when you put it like that...

Really sounds like a horrible, shallow and boring portrayal of Bruce Wayne.
Well Alfred's (and Fox's) efforts to have Bruce find love (be it with Miranda, Selina, or a Chimpanzee) suggest that it was the thing that could have brought him out of his depression. (seeing as his philanthropic efforts failed and that he wouldn't let himself put on the cowl)

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Old 01-25-2013, 05:27 PM   #135
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Boy, when you put it like that...

Really sounds like a horrible, shallow and boring portrayal of Bruce Wayne.
Doesn't sound horrible, shallow or boring. Bruce has no actual family and the only woman he claimed to have loved is dead. Having nothing is not a bad portrayal because he does have nothing and especially in the moment of TDKR where he has even more of nothing.

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Old 01-25-2013, 05:28 PM   #136
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They didn't sneak the atom bomb. The atom bomb was always there. It was Bruce's energy source for Gotham.
I'm saying if Bruce was Batman and never retired he would have been able to know there was something suspicious about Tate and her intentions?

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Old 01-25-2013, 05:44 PM   #137
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Well, Bruce Wayne was never a people's person. Not in the traditional sense at least. With all the facade that he made as a "playboy millionaire" I don't think he would open to more established relationships in a broad sense. On the films he states "I don't have the luxury of friends."

The way I think of Rachel is that she represented an ideal of moving on. Even though Rachel clearly didn't feel the same way. That's where most criticism for the relationship is found in TDK. The truth is, there wasn't a romantic relationship. Bruce wanted it to be, but Rachel whereas Rachel toyed with the idea once, she found in Harvey what she thought Bruce could never give to her. But more importantly, they were still friends. They were close, and he lost her arguably because of his actions.

Besides, I see it more of a nod to The Dark Knight Returns, where Alfred continuously teases Bruce about his personal life. In my opinion it was better done on Rises.

But as stated before, there are multiple factors at play here. It's more that the sum of all the parts.

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Old 01-25-2013, 05:48 PM   #138
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I'm saying if Bruce was Batman and never retired he would have been able to know there was something suspicious about Tate and her intentions?
But she was lovely!

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Old 01-25-2013, 09:46 PM   #139
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Default Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

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Doesn't sound horrible, shallow or boring. Bruce has no actual family and the only woman he claimed to have loved is dead. Having nothing is not a bad portrayal because he does have nothing and especially in the moment of TDKR where he has even more of nothing.
Exactly. I thought it was totally in keeping with the Bruce Wayne character to not let go of something that way.

Bruce is a very rigid guy who never lets go of anything. His father's dying words were to not be afraid, and he obviously to that straight to heart. He was still holding onto and honoring the idea that he'd have a normal life with Rachel if Gotham ever didn't need Batman. So when Gotham finally doesn't need Batman, but his "after Batman" plans are no longer an option, Bruce falls into this limbo where he kind of ceases to exist without a purpose. Things didn't go according to his grand plan, and he's too stubborn and broken to find happiness. He lost the will to live.

I think it's beautifully tragic, which makes it all the more inspirational that Bruce is able to overcome all of that.


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(and note that all 3 aspects that shut Bruce down are based on lies. The lie of Harvey Dent, the lie that his energy project failed, and the lie that Rachel chose Bruce)

By the end, the truth had surfaced, painful as it was, but necessary, and Bruce was able to give the city its true symbol of hope and bring it out of apathy (and a protector in case things go wrong again), he succeed in "Bruce Wayne's" philanthropic efforts with the boys' home, and was able to let himself find love again (first with Miranda, and then with Selina, when Talia lay a bombshell on him that could have had him regress, had it not been the quick arrival and reminder of others like Selina).
That's an awesome angle to look at it from, the fact that everything that broke him down was based on a lie.

He really ascended from darkness into light in this movie, in every way.

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Old 01-25-2013, 10:07 PM   #140
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I'm saying if Bruce was Batman and never retired he would have been able to know there was something suspicious about Tate and her intentions?
Because being Batman all of a sudden made Bruce smarter?

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Old 01-25-2013, 11:07 PM   #141
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Let's see, just as an example, on The Dark Knight Returns it's implied that he quit because of the death of Jason Todd. That's a good enough reason to quit, someone that was under his care died, and he felt guilty about it. On Batman Beyond, in the first episode "Rebirth Part I" the reason was physical, he was unable to keep going due to old age. Now let's analyze the background of the Nolan Bat-Films. Bruce does not want to be Batman forever. The ambitions of Bruce are aimed a little higher, a little bigger. On Gotham things are different, it's a unique case in which corruption and crime runs rampant on the city, and the police can't do a thing to stop it, in fact it's part of the problem. The system is broken. A fascinating aspect is that Batman is born out of a need. This is taking directly from Frank Miller's Year One. If the police and the government did their job as they should, there would be no need for Batman.

So Bruce sets his aims on eradicating the root of the problem. It's not about common muggins and robberies. It's the root that causes this problem. In Begins is reflected in the form of Joe Chill. He is the byproduct of the actions of the organized crime and the corruption has done to the city. Creating poverty and hunger. This is also taking from a comic book, The Dark Knight Returns in the first part of the book, where Bruce comes to an understanding of Joe Chills actions and the murder of his parents. At the same time, he wants to inspire people, to shake them out of apathy, and become a symbol for Gotham. Restore the damage, taking Gotham from the hands of crime to their people. Restoring the police, as channeled by his alliance with Jim Gordon, and moving the powerful people into action.

This works in the form of Harvey Dent. This is a man that idealizes Bruce's ambitions, a person with a face that can do things right without resorting to Batman's tactics. He sees that he is almost accomplished what he has set up to do. At the beginning of The Dark Knight we see that things have improved, criminals are scared on the streets, the mob is cornered and people have hope. We also see the unexpected consequences of Bruce's actions too. At the same time Harvey Dent rose, The Joker made his move. We see good people like the Citizens for Batman trying to do good things in the wrong way too. On the other hand, Bruce has this inherent desire for being happy, in his mind to overcome pain and move one, idealized in Rachel Dawes. This is brought upon various interpretations of Batman. See Mask of the Phantasm, where Bruce considers giving up being Batman by the return of Andrea Beaumont.

And all of this fails. The Joker does his act: kills Rachel, breaks Harvey and attempts to gain the upper hand on Gotham's soul. All of Harvey's good deeds could go into the drain if the truth of Two-Face came up to the public. Everything Bruce has done would be lost, people would lose hope. So they cover it up. It is a lie, but Bruce takes on the weight of it, taking the blame, becoming the villian, being hunted.

So at the beginning of Rises, we see a shattered man. He cannot continue being Batman. There is no need. The Dent Act sweep off the remains of the organized crime. If he would make an apparition as Batman for a minor thing, he would be hunted, bringing the police after him, and giving Gordon more pain to deal. (And this happens on Rises) There is no reason powerful enough to go on. As Bruce Wayne he has also lost so many. His project for giving the people of Gotham free clean energy has gone awry. Something that could potentially improve the quality of life of the Gothamites, and namely something he could do as a Wayne, has deemed to be potentially dangerous and is shut down, lossing a lot of money of his company in the way. He only awaits for death.

When Bane and the League of Shadows makes it's apparition, Bruce is mentally and physically broken. He needs to overcome pain and gain a new found respect for his own life. The film takes other points, like Blake being an embodiment for what Bruce idealized on Harvey Dent, albeit in a different manner. Inspiring the people to defend themselves, represented by Gotham's police. Changing Selina's views on the world. And finally, after there is no more to give, he has to make a choice.

So the movie shifts its focus. It's not about saving Gotham, we kinda know that Batman will save it. It's about Bruce saving himself. And because of the journey of this man (as stated somewhat briefly before), we want him to succeed.

Also worth nothing, we do not see Bruce being "happy go-lucky", we see a mature Bruce giving life another chance, a beginning of a new journey.

In my book, he earned this in spades.
Holy cow! Such an epic post.

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Old 01-26-2013, 09:20 AM   #142
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Default Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

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Originally Posted by BlueLightning View Post
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Let's see, just as an example, on The Dark Knight Returns it's implied that he quit because of the death of Jason Todd. That's a good enough reason to quit, someone that was under his care died, and he felt guilty about it. On Batman Beyond, in the first episode "Rebirth Part I" the reason was physical, he was unable to keep going due to old age. Now let's analyze the background of the Nolan Bat-Films. Bruce does not want to be Batman forever. The ambitions of Bruce are aimed a little higher, a little bigger. On Gotham things are different, it's a unique case in which corruption and crime runs rampant on the city, and the police can't do a thing to stop it, in fact it's part of the problem. The system is broken. A fascinating aspect is that Batman is born out of a need. This is taking directly from Frank Miller's Year One. If the police and the government did their job as they should, there would be no need for Batman.

So Bruce sets his aims on eradicating the root of the problem. It's not about common muggins and robberies. It's the root that causes this problem. In Begins is reflected in the form of Joe Chill. He is the byproduct of the actions of the organized crime and the corruption has done to the city. Creating poverty and hunger. This is also taking from a comic book, The Dark Knight Returns in the first part of the book, where Bruce comes to an understanding of Joe Chills actions and the murder of his parents. At the same time, he wants to inspire people, to shake them out of apathy, and become a symbol for Gotham. Restore the damage, taking Gotham from the hands of crime to their people. Restoring the police, as channeled by his alliance with Jim Gordon, and moving the powerful people into action.

This works in the form of Harvey Dent. This is a man that idealizes Bruce's ambitions, a person with a face that can do things right without resorting to Batman's tactics. He sees that he is almost accomplished what he has set up to do. At the beginning of The Dark Knight we see that things have improved, criminals are scared on the streets, the mob is cornered and people have hope. We also see the unexpected consequences of Bruce's actions too. At the same time Harvey Dent rose, The Joker made his move. We see good people like the Citizens for Batman trying to do good things in the wrong way too. On the other hand, Bruce has this inherent desire for being happy, in his mind to overcome pain and move one, idealized in Rachel Dawes. This is brought upon various interpretations of Batman. See Mask of the Phantasm, where Bruce considers giving up being Batman by the return of Andrea Beaumont.

And all of this fails. The Joker does his act: kills Rachel, breaks Harvey and attempts to gain the upper hand on Gotham's soul. All of Harvey's good deeds could go into the drain if the truth of Two-Face came up to the public. Everything Bruce has done would be lost, people would lose hope. So they cover it up. It is a lie, but Bruce takes on the weight of it, taking the blame, becoming the villian, being hunted.

So at the beginning of Rises, we see a shattered man. He cannot continue being Batman. There is no need. The Dent Act sweep off the remains of the organized crime. If he would make an apparition as Batman for a minor thing, he would be hunted, bringing the police after him, and giving Gordon more pain to deal. (And this happens on Rises) There is no reason powerful enough to go on. As Bruce Wayne he has also lost so many. His project for giving the people of Gotham free clean energy has gone awry. Something that could potentially improve the quality of life of the Gothamites, and namely something he could do as a Wayne, has deemed to be potentially dangerous and is shut down, lossing a lot of money of his company in the way. He only awaits for death.

When Bane and the League of Shadows makes it's apparition, Bruce is mentally and physically broken. He needs to overcome pain and gain a new found respect for his own life. The film takes other points, like Blake being an embodiment for what Bruce idealized on Harvey Dent, albeit in a different manner. Inspiring the people to defend themselves, represented by Gotham's police. Changing Selina's views on the world. And finally, after there is no more to give, he has to make a choice.

So the movie shifts its focus. It's not about saving Gotham, we kinda know that Batman will save it. It's about Bruce saving himself. And because of the journey of this man (as stated somewhat briefly before), we want him to succeed.

Also worth nothing, we do not see Bruce being "happy go-lucky", we see a mature Bruce giving life another chance, a beginning of a new journey.

In my book, he earned this in spades.


Standing ovation for Mr. Lightning, please.

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Old 01-26-2013, 09:39 AM   #143
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Default Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

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Because being Batman all of a sudden made Bruce smarter?
If you don't think being batman made him smarter there is nothing else to discuss

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Old 01-26-2013, 12:11 PM   #144
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Default Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

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Originally Posted by the last son View Post
If you don't think being batman made him smarter there is nothing else to discuss
So you can't give me a reply. Predictable.

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Old 05-07-2013, 10:44 PM   #145
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Default Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

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Originally Posted by KneelBeforeZod View Post
The Joker doesn't say "before Batman". He just says, "Lets wind the clocks back a year, these cops and lawyers wouldn't dare cross any of you." That scene isn't necessarily within a year of Batman emerging. It is just within a year of the mob losing control.

Also ... Falcone was the kingpin during Begins. Those mobsters emerged after Falcone, and it would've taken them some time to regain control -- and then a year passed since they lost control to Batman/Dent.

I think its about three years between BB and TDK. If its only a few months ... Gordon's kid aged awful fast.

KBZ
Yeah your right, and I saw an article saying that Gordon had a newborn son in Begins and he was, like, 10 in TDK. And they even had a daughter, Babara of course.

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Old 05-08-2013, 11:51 AM   #146
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Default Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

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Originally Posted by BlueLightning View Post
Let's see, just as an example, on The Dark Knight Returns it's implied that he quit because of the death of Jason Todd. That's a good enough reason to quit, someone that was under his care died, and he felt guilty about it. On Batman Beyond, in the first episode "Rebirth Part I" the reason was physical, he was unable to keep going due to old age. Now let's analyze the background of the Nolan Bat-Films. Bruce does not want to be Batman forever. The ambitions of Bruce are aimed a little higher, a little bigger. On Gotham things are different, it's a unique case in which corruption and crime runs rampant on the city, and the police can't do a thing to stop it, in fact it's part of the problem. The system is broken. A fascinating aspect is that Batman is born out of a need. This is taking directly from Frank Miller's Year One. If the police and the government did their job as they should, there would be no need for Batman.

So Bruce sets his aims on eradicating the root of the problem. It's not about common muggins and robberies. It's the root that causes this problem. In Begins is reflected in the form of Joe Chill. He is the byproduct of the actions of the organized crime and the corruption has done to the city. Creating poverty and hunger. This is also taking from a comic book, The Dark Knight Returns in the first part of the book, where Bruce comes to an understanding of Joe Chills actions and the murder of his parents. At the same time, he wants to inspire people, to shake them out of apathy, and become a symbol for Gotham. Restore the damage, taking Gotham from the hands of crime to their people. Restoring the police, as channeled by his alliance with Jim Gordon, and moving the powerful people into action.

This works in the form of Harvey Dent. This is a man that idealizes Bruce's ambitions, a person with a face that can do things right without resorting to Batman's tactics. He sees that he is almost accomplished what he has set up to do. At the beginning of The Dark Knight we see that things have improved, criminals are scared on the streets, the mob is cornered and people have hope. We also see the unexpected consequences of Bruce's actions too. At the same time Harvey Dent rose, The Joker made his move. We see good people like the Citizens for Batman trying to do good things in the wrong way too. On the other hand, Bruce has this inherent desire for being happy, in his mind to overcome pain and move one, idealized in Rachel Dawes. This is brought upon various interpretations of Batman. See Mask of the Phantasm, where Bruce considers giving up being Batman by the return of Andrea Beaumont.

And all of this fails. The Joker does his act: kills Rachel, breaks Harvey and attempts to gain the upper hand on Gotham's soul. All of Harvey's good deeds could go into the drain if the truth of Two-Face came up to the public. Everything Bruce has done would be lost, people would lose hope. So they cover it up. It is a lie, but Bruce takes on the weight of it, taking the blame, becoming the villian, being hunted.

So at the beginning of Rises, we see a shattered man. He cannot continue being Batman. There is no need. The Dent Act sweep off the remains of the organized crime. If he would make an apparition as Batman for a minor thing, he would be hunted, bringing the police after him, and giving Gordon more pain to deal. (And this happens on Rises) There is no reason powerful enough to go on. As Bruce Wayne he has also lost so many. His project for giving the people of Gotham free clean energy has gone awry. Something that could potentially improve the quality of life of the Gothamites, and namely something he could do as a Wayne, has deemed to be potentially dangerous and is shut down, lossing a lot of money of his company in the way. He only awaits for death.

When Bane and the League of Shadows makes it's apparition, Bruce is mentally and physically broken. He needs to overcome pain and gain a new found respect for his own life. The film takes other points, like Blake being an embodiment for what Bruce idealized on Harvey Dent, albeit in a different manner. Inspiring the people to defend themselves, represented by Gotham's police. Changing Selina's views on the world. And finally, after there is no more to give, he has to make a choice.

So the movie shifts its focus. It's not about saving Gotham, we kinda know that Batman will save it. It's about Bruce saving himself. And because of the journey of this man (as stated somewhat briefly before), we want him to succeed.

Also worth nothing, we do not see Bruce being "happy go-lucky", we see a mature Bruce giving life another chance, a beginning of a new journey.

In my book, he earned this in spades.

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Old 05-09-2013, 09:25 PM   #147
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Default Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

Wow! Back from the depths. :-)
I'm glad you liked it.

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Old 05-23-2013, 02:33 PM   #148
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Default Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

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Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
I've seen a lot of contradicting stuff.

I assumed it was a year, but not much more.
I always figured it was a year, but the general consensus is TDK happened 8 months after Begins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BaleISBatman4ev View Post
Courtesy of Umair Dar on the facebook fan page:

2003 - Bruce Wayne returns to Gotham City, has his first night out, begins prowling as the Batman.

2003 - Jimmy is a two year-old infant when Batman visits Gordon at home.

2005 - Batman defeats Ra's Al Ghul on the train. Remember this is on the SAME NIGHT that he has his 30th birthday party.

2005 - 2008 - Offscreen, Batman wages war on crime, working his way up to the big fish of the mob. Assuming this is true conveniently explains several things:

- (1) Like SnakeDoc suggests, it is not until a year before TDK that he is finally having an impact that is really hurting them and making them take notice.

- (2) All during this time, while Batman is building his reputation, Joker commits random crimes and builds up his own legend among criminals. This is where we get the "So why do they call him the Joker?" "I heard he wears makeup..to scare people...y'know, war paint" lines. It makes sense that it takes a while to build up that kind of rumormill/reputation. It also explains the "Two-bit wack job, cheap purple suit" line from Maroni and the "Him again" line from Batman. Joker wasn't wearing the purple suit during the bank robbery, so Maroni must have seen/heard of him before. Like Batman, dispite his crimes, he views him as just a minor nuisance to be dealth with later.

- (3) Guestimating this three-year gap between the films also neatly explains the line in The Dark Knight Manual that he was wearing the Original Suit for 5 years---he was---from 2003 to 2008.

- (4) Finally, this 3 year gap ages little Jimmy almost perfectly. If he is two years-old in 2003, then he is seven in 2008. It doesn't take much stretching in either direction to make him an 8 year-old, or to even just assume he is supposed to be seven in that film.

The Dark Knight Rises is eight years later.

2016 Now I know the Gotham Civil War poster contradicts this, with the date of the exhibit ending in 2014. But this is the only really hard-set date we know of (as of now anyway), and it's not really clear if it even appears noticeably on-screen or if a hard-set date of 2014 appears in the final film on screen, so I'm willing to overlook it. Also, I realize this is just an excuse, but that poster could be an "old" ad that was never taken down, or pasted over with something else newer that is peeling off. It certainly doesn't look like it's supposed to be in new condition. Just sayin'.

Working backward from the above dates, we can make the milestones in Bruce's life fit too.

2003 - Bruce Wayne returns to Gotham. Based on the above that he turns 30 in 2005, he turns 28 in 2003. Since we know he was away for seven years, he dropped out of Princeton at 21 (or 20, depending on his birthday) as an undergrad in his senior year, just shy of graduation.

Working farther back and using the casefile of the Wayne murders in The Dark Knight Manual

November 8, 1983 - The Waynes are gunned down. Bruce is 10 or 11 years old (again, depending on his birthday)

1972 or 1973 - Bruce Wayne is born.
Sounds a bit far-fetched to ve drawn out that long.
There is NO way the events of Begins from where Bruce returns to Gotham and becomes Batman, and when he fights Ra's is 2 years. It sounds ridiculous, I can believe from when he returns from Asia to Gotham, and the end of the film, is a few months (5+ I'd say).

And with regards to little Jimmy, I always thought he had 2 or more? children, and Jimmy was not the baby in Begins.
You really think the Joker could be at large for 3 years before Batman ever came into contact with him? (Given the scene where Gordon tells Batman about it, and the first meeting at Bruce's penthouse). It was probably more than 8 months like others have said.
Even the Joker says in TDK "Let's wind the clocks back a year. These cops and lawyers wouldn't dare cross any of you. I mean, what happened? Did your balls drop off? Hmm? You see, a guy like me...".
So Batman was probably at work for a around a year after Begins, bringing the mob down.

The events of DKR are supposed to be in 2014? Or something.
Which gives:
2014 DKR
2006 Last confirmed sighting of the Batman after Dent's murder
2005 Batman first appearance, Bruce becomes 30
2004(or early 2005) Bruce Wayne returns to Gotham
1997 Joe Chill's murder, Wayne travels and trains with the League (22 years old)
1985 (Presuming he is 10 by the time his parents are killed)
1975 Wayne is born

Or if you go by the other theory that because TDK and Begins are ~2007-8, then DKR is 2016, and that would mean Bruce was born in 1977.


Last edited by TheXtremisT; 05-23-2013 at 03:09 PM.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:31 PM   #149
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Default Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

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Originally Posted by TheXtremisT View Post
I always figured it was a year, but the general consensus is TDK happened 8 months after Begins.



Sounds a bit far-fetched to ve drawn out that long.
There is NO way the events of Begins from where Bruce returns to Gotham and becomes Batman, and when he fights Ra's is 2 years. It sounds ridiculous, I can believe from when he returns from Asia to Gotham, and the end of the film, is a few months (5+ I'd say).

And with regards to little Jimmy, I always thought he had 2 or more? children, and Jimmy was not the baby in Begins.
You really think the Joker could be at large for 3 years before Batman ever came into contact with him? (Given the scene where Gordon tells Batman about it, and the first meeting at Bruce's penthouse). It was probably more than 8 months like others have said.
Even the Joker says in TDK "Let's wind the clocks back a year. These cops and lawyers wouldn't dare cross any of you. I mean, what happened? Did your balls drop off? Hmm? You see, a guy like me...".
So Batman was probably at work for a around a year after Begins, bringing the mob down.

The events of DKR are supposed to be in 2014? Or something.
Which gives:
2014 DKR
2006 Last confirmed sighting of the Batman after Dent's murder
2005 Batman first appearance, Bruce becomes 30
2004(or early 2005) Bruce Wayne returns to Gotham
1997 Joe Chill's murder, Wayne travels and trains with the League (22 years old)
1985 (Presuming he is 10 by the time his parents are killed)
1975 Wayne is born

Or if you go by the other theory that because TDK and Begins are ~2007-8, then DKR is 2016, and that would mean Bruce was born in 1977.
I just go by what has been offically been put out, either in the dark knight manual, the making of books or the novels etc. If it says he was Batman in the BB suit for 5 years then I go with that. Then I try and line that up with events/comments made in the films. If it makes sense to yourself then that's all that counts yeah.

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Old 05-23-2013, 11:54 PM   #150
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Default Re: How long did Nolans Batman actually fight crime?(SPOILERS)

Well Bruce was only Batman for like a year and a half before disappearing for 8 years. BB was year 1 and DK took place the following year. I know seemed longer but he really wasn't Batman for that long and his body was that damaged by the events of Rises is weird. I know his knee got injured by the fall in DK, which they really should have mentioned IN RISES..... Some people were asking about that when I left rises for the first time in theaters and people had to piece it together or have others explain it.

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