The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

I agree with you that JGL is a fantastic actor - it seems strange to me that he gets handed two-dimensional characters in Nolan films (Inception, TDKR). But I feel like you are overreading the bridge scene. That isn't "pent-up anger" coming out - nothing in the movie necessitates that interpretation. Any person would be frustrated and angry in a high stress situation like that. Blake being angry in a high stress situation does not make him stand out as a character, unlike Bruce, whose anger is palpable throughout the trilogy. Heavy emoting in one scene does not a character make... no matter how talented the actor is.

Well, I agree that anyone would be angry in that situation but in the context of the whole movie it definitely does support his character arc of being someone who believes in upholding the law to becoming disillusioned with the system he was fighting for. It was an outburst in a stressful situation, but it had greater meaning.

"You're killing us! Yeah, follow your orders!"

It's that whole situation that finally leads to him tossing his badge into the river. Now, I'll admit that the pent up anger thing is probably more my interpretation than anything, but I think it's supported by the film because Blake talks about having to hide his anger to be accepted, so when he finally has that outburst after being so reserved for the entire film (despite people calling him a hothead), it felt like the jack finally came out of the box so to speak and we were seeing a different side of him. Now if the scene/character didn't emotionally grab you, fair game.

[ThePhantasm]

But see, there we are just circling back to the original problem under discussion. Blake is disillusioned with the system throughout the movie, enough to seek out and encourage a vigilante to take action, enough to question orders, etc. - until Gordon reveals HIS disillusionment with the system, at which point Blake gets all self-righteous and judgmental.

The purpose of the one inconsistent scene is thematic - Blake has to question Gordon so that later by joining in with Gordon and Bruce's disillusionment he can somehow justify / legitimize / support their actions in TDK. But it falls flat because we already know Blake supports illegal methods of upholding justice, such as the Batman. This is why Blake seems like a convenient prop - he's there to play off of Gordon or Bruce in whatever way is necessary for the scene, and to conveniently take up Bruce's mantel at the end. But you never get a feel for him as a character himself, because he's always playing counterpoint / exposition - he's the counterpoint to Foley, he's the counterpoint to Gordon in one scene and his ally in all others, he's a plot device to get Bruce back into action because of his magical intuition... the character always feels too convenient and we never really get a good feel for who he is beyond his cliched backstory and flat surface level aspects.

[ThePhantasm]

And yeah, I find the scenes emotionally grabbing whenever I watch them... but once they are over and I have time to reflect, I realize they don't really have many teeth. Unlike the similar final act in TDK, which sticks with you long after the film is over...

[BatLobsterRises]

Well, I see what you're saying and I think you do have a point there, but I guess I am okay with him being an audience proxy because that was the original point of adding Robin to the comic books and I think it adds another dimension to the movie.

I would say Blake's disillusionment "rises" throughout the film. He starts of a bit weary of the Batman/Dent story, because he's a believer in the Batman and the story isn't sitting right. I always took that scene with Gordon as Blake being just as angry that Gordon let Batman, his hero, take the fall as he was that Gordon lied to the city. He knows that Bruce willingly took the blame yet he doesn't reprimand him for it. That's why I always felt he was wrong to judge Gordon so quickly in that scene and don't think he's a character without flaws. He has a huge Batman-bias, because Batman gave him hope when he was young (during a time when Gotham was more corrupt). He's got this hero worship thing going on, and it seems to have affected his very decision to become a cop and how he treats his job as a cop. I think what we see in TDKR is a guy whose naiveté is starting to wear off a little, even at the start of the film. He has questions, but he's not quite ready for the answers.

[JAK®]

Originally Posted by TheBat812

Definitely. Very reminiscent of Kubrick.

Kubrick puts more purely character-driven moments in his movies than Nolan does. They're very cold, creepy character moments but they're there. The scene in The Shining were Jack Torrance is being interviewed for the caretaker position comes to mind. We spend a lot of time focusing on how Jack answers the questions. I can't think of a scene in a Nolan film that does that to that extent.

[craigdbfan]

I find them to be pretty different myself too. Nolan does a lot of visual allusions to Kubrick but it pretty much stops there.

[Polaris23]

Originally Posted by kvz5

Gary Stu is exactly the first thing I thought of after watching TDKR. He was created to fix all the flaws Nolan dumped on Gordon, Bruce, and Batman's characters. Blah. It was the first JGL character that I really disliked. I was surprised that he got more praise than Hardy from the critics. *shrug*

I agree, I just can't stand Blake. Plus, it doesn't help that I find JGL annoying.
I feel he stole screentime from classic Batman characters.

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by craigdbfan

I find them to be pretty different myself too. Nolan does a lot of visual allusions to Kubrick but it pretty much stops there.

I think they just have very similar views on how to use actors and writing to create a full character that supports the themes they're trying to explore. But they definitely have very distinct styles.

[Hamill-Joker]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

But see, there we are just circling back to the original problem under discussion. Blake is disillusioned with the system throughout the movie, enough to seek out and encourage a vigilante to take action, enough to question orders, etc. - until Gordon reveals HIS disillusionment with the system, at which point Blake gets all self-righteous and judgmental.

I disagree with you're point in the sense that you're simplifying the situation too much.

The point you are missing doesn't have anything to do with Blake's disillusionment with the system, but with Blake's sense of seeking justice, which is what he is ultimately concerned with throughout the film. That is why he is asking Batman for help, that is why he questions Foley's action.

When he discovers the lie about Dent, it turns the world on its head a bit for him. The people who he saw as the real crusaders for seeking truth and justice covered up the crimes of a multiple murderer, and used that injustice to their advantage. In a sense he saw them making a deal with the devil.

[Anno_Domini]

Anyone else see Fredericks on Person of Interest?

[Panthro]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Anyone else see Fredericks on Person of Interest?

I did. I was like "Hey, it's that guy who looks kinda like John Hurt but isn't John Hurt!"

[Anno_Domini]

John Hurt mixed with a little Billy Drago I'd say, lol.

So, to bring up something else though...I have a question: What did Mark Millar(the man behind Kick-Ass, The Ultimates and more) think of TDKR?

http://www.sfx.co.uk/2013/02/01/mark...future-past/2/

Finally, what was your take on The Dark Knight Rises?

“I know there are different opinions on that movie. I thought it was interesting that when The Dark Knight came out it was just after the financial crash and you had this mass joblessness all over the Western world. I thought, ‘It is going to be quite hard to do a film about a billionaire hero who lives in a gigantic mansion and goes out to beat up poor people every night.’ Just think about it – Bruce Wayne is the guy who is firing people, he is not really one of us [laughs]. But to their credit they really tackled it in that movie. It was very, very timely: it was a tale of two cities and I thought it was on the side of the poor guys. When they were raiding the mansions and throwing people out on the street – and even at the end Bruce Wayne gave away his fortune. I thought Bane was the most compelling out of all the villains – right from the start I thought, ‘this guy is great.’ I thought the only thing that let it down a bit was the action: Nolan should go to movie jail for the Bane vs Catwoman thing at the end. But the rest of the movie was so brilliant that you could easily forgive him. I liked it better than The Avengers.”

[JackWhite]

LOL @ Nolan going to movie jail for Catwoman ending Bane.

[Anno_Domini]

Yah, I guess that stood out to a lot of folks besides just people around these boards, but I was amazed to know the guy who is into Marvel so much preferred TDKR over Avengers.

[ThePhantasm]

I have a lot of problems with TDKR, but I enjoy it more than the Avengers as well.

[BatLobsterRises]

It's no contest for me. As fun and lighthearted as The Avengers was, I found that a lot of the charm wore off after the first viewing, personally. I never felt any real emotional connection to it, and I don't feel like there's enough to sink my teeth into to keep coming back to it. The one big emotional beat in the film (Coulsen's death) is already being retconned/was a lie to begin with. There's just very little in the film beyond the admittedly fun action that appeals to me (Hawkeye is pretty cool too). And for all the talk about Avengers being the big, bright counterpart to Nolan's dark and gloomy Bat-flicks, I found TDKR to have a more resonantly positive, life affirming message at its heart, with a lot of genuinely fun moments peppered throughout.

I respect the opinion of everyone who loved it because I recognize that I am clearly in the minority. It's just one of those things where I'm not sure I'll ever quite get the hype. I have a feeling I'll like Iron Man 3 a lot more than The Avengers.

[Excelsior.]

You are not in the minority. The ratio of Avengers to Rises preference is usually 6:4 on different places of the net than say 9:1 or 8:2. I guess that is still a minority opinion but a pretty frickin major minority.

[shauner111]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

It's no contest for me. As fun and lighthearted as The Avengers was, I found that a lot of the charm wore off after the first viewing, personally. I never felt any real emotional connection to it, and I don't feel like there's enough to sink my teeth into to keep coming back to it. The one big emotional beat in the film (Coulsen's death) is already being retconned/was a lie to begin with. There's just very little in the film beyond the admittedly fun action that appeals to me (Hawkeye is pretty cool too). And for all the talk about Avengers being the big, bright counterpart to Nolan's dark and gloomy Bat-flicks, I found TDKR to have a more resonantly positive, life affirming message at its heart, with a lot of genuinely fun moments peppered throughout.

I respect the opinion of everyone who loved it because I recognize that I am clearly in the minority. It's just one of those things where I'm not sure I'll ever quite get the hype. I have a feeling I'll like Iron Man 3 a lot more than The Avengers.

My exact thoughts on Avengers.

[BatLobsterRises]

Well, I meant I'm in the minority with not loving The Avengers. I would say most people in general loved or at least strongly liked The Avengers regardless of how they felt about Rises. I would say I'm lukewarm to The Avengers. I feel it could be the type of movie where if I ever had kids and they loved it, I might grow to love it too.

[Anita18]

I liked Avengers. It was fun and respected the characters, and you really couldn't reasonably ask for anything more. It is what it is, and it is quite an achievement in itself.

But I need a juicy character arc to really LOVE a movie, and Bruce's arc in TDKR did that for me. Nobody in Avengers really had a nice, complete arc.

[BlueLightning]

I loved the Avengers. When I got home, I started thinking about the optimism of the film, and how it was basically a comic book brought to life, with a lot of heart. But I must admit that in repeated viewings I didn't found it as compelling as on the first time.

[A Necessary Evil]

I still love Avengers as much as I did on first viewing. Same goes for Rises, and TASM.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

I'm more excited about Iron Man 3 than I ever was for The Avengers...

It's a fun popcorn movie, but that's really where it ends for me.

[Excelsior.]

Iron Man 3 could really something else if Marvel affords Shane Black the writing/direction freedom they gave to Whedon. I mean, can you imagine? A Tom Clancy thriller starring Iron Man as described by Shane Black; I salivate just thinking about the potential awesomeness.

[Anno_Domini]

I'm with the majority on this one. The Avengers is a fun flick and is a great ending to "Phase One" of the Marvel Cinematic Universe but it wasn't something truly amazing, or something that really meant something on film as The Dark Knight Rises was, but that doesn't keep Avengers from being my second favorite CBM. It's really awesome to say two CBMs that came out in the same year became my two favorite CBMs, but I can only view Avengers as for what it is, a fun CBM. Nothing with the heart and soul that TDKR carried from beginning to end.