Official Relationship Thread: The Good, the Bad and the Ugly

[Erzengel]

And it really doesn't matter one bit whether other people think your behavior is selfish. You do what you need to do.

True if you have one person saying you're selfish.....but if enough people or someone close to you is saying it?

The way you worded it seemed like a broad sweeping stroke. Like he should do whatever.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Erzengel

True if you have one person saying you're selfish.....but if enough people or someone close to you is saying it?

The way you worded it seemed like a broad sweeping stroke. Like he should do whatever.

I think it's more that you should respond to opinions of you if they come from someone who is important to you. I don't think there really is an "enough" kind of number. I know a lot of people other's thought of as bastards but they were really pretty successful and good with people when you actually looked closer; there was a method to their madness. Not saying that's what is going on here, but I do think the general rule about it being your view of yourself that's important is true.

[SuperMike335!!]

Originally Posted by Erzengel

True if you have one person saying you're selfish.....but if enough people or someone close to you is saying it?

The way you worded it seemed like a broad sweeping stroke. Like he should do whatever.

Argumentum ad populum.

[Kane52630]

[Anita18]

Originally Posted by Erzengel

True if you have one person saying you're selfish.....but if enough people or someone close to you is saying it?

The way you worded it seemed like a broad sweeping stroke. Like he should do whatever.

I guess you have to ask yourself the question - do I really think this person has my best interests in mind? Doesn't matter if they are close to you. Sometimes even your parents can be your worst enemy. I have enough friends in therapy to get over emotionally abusive parents to prove it.

The broad sweeping stroke was meant as a kick to the rear. (TWSS? ) He already sounded like he's basically resigned himself to the situation.

[Erzengel]

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

I think it's more that you should respond to opinions of you if they come from someone who is important to you. I don't think there really is an "enough" kind of number. I know a lot of people other's thought of as bastards but they were really pretty successful and good with people when you actually looked closer; there was a method to their madness. Not saying that's what is going on here, but I do think the general rule about it being your view of yourself that's important is true.

Originally Posted by SuperMike335!!

Argumentum ad populum.

Sorta. But it's like the case of the person who keeps having relationship troubles and blames the gender when he or she should really be looking inward.

[Anubis]

Everybody says you're a douche, you're probably a douche.......either that or you just have douche like tendencies.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Erzengel

Sorta. But it's like the case of the person who keeps having relationship troubles and blames the gender when he or she should really be looking inward.

That's more looking for common denominators. I mean, first of all, I suppose you could have tons of relationship troubles but not really care. I mean maybe you're rich and just don't give a f*** because you have a revolving door of women, even if you were hypothetically a d*** of a boyfriend. But then again, I mean only you can truly know that too.

The person you're talking about is self-aware in terms of knowing he or she is not where they want to be, so that's more of a self-acknowledgement with no action or follow through.

I mean I get what you're saying.

I think this is one of those things that just kind of goes in circles.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Anubis

Everybody says you're a douche, you're probably a douche.......either that or you just have douche like tendencies.

Well, like I say though, if you're an effective douche it hardly matters.

I suppose we're talking about the ineffective ones.

[Anubis]

Mostly the ones that cause yeast infections.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Got it. Clever.

[Nave 'Torment']

I am having the worst of it this week. It just keeps getting bad to worse and I think, I'm afraid, that I will be losing her. Instinctively. I feels as though I'm going to lose her down the line.

And good god I don't want to. I don't want that to happen. I love her. Unconditionally.

She says she needs time to figure out whether we're compatible or not, an issue that I had brought up before we got together to begin with, she says she needs space and I admit I've been acting way too needy for that. It got her into trouble. It's as ridiculous as trying to win at rock-paper-scissors with yourself. I'll elaborate.

We're living in a very conservative culture, so any casual ideas of dating or hooking up is very limited to a small niche group and neither of us are a part of that. Or our families. For the past month since we started going out and really being absolutely happy with each other everything seemed perfect. She got really excited and we were serious. She told her mother how much she cared about me but the mother didn't believe it. The mother believes me to be a lying, manipulative junkie who is stuck in a mediocre college in a third-world country (the same college her daughter goes to btw) on account of being the absolute loser that I am and that my chosen major (the same major her daughter is working on: Literature) tells a lot about how lazy and financially irresponsible I am. "No only someone with an Ivy League degree" she said, "you're lowering your standards. The last guys you liked were so better looking! ___ and ___ are better suitors!" Her father took the dramatics a step further, threatening her that he'd stop financing her education if she kept seeing me, and gave her an ultimatum of talking over the phone for only 5 minutes and never after 11. Yes. She's in college. But that's beside the point. Her mother put a lot of doubt in her head and it was a very emotionally constricted place where they kept blaming her for being dumb and irresponsible (she isn't. She's lived her entire life as a dutiful child and a responsible little girl who does well in her studies and what not -- kinda like me -- even the part about being a little girl but let's not start making fun of me just yet).

She... complied.

She told me she needs more time to figure it out and that she needs her space, and I admit I haven't really done a good job at giving her her space but yeah. Throughout the month we've been dating there's always been two really bad negative elephants in the room: the fact that I'm an introvert and she isn't, and the fact that we were doing all of this behind her parents' backs which made it difficult. She has been genuinely in love with me and this is the second time in over a year that we worked things out and got together, it was only last month that we made it official. It was too early to tell her folks, as most of my friends say, but the damage has been done. When her mom told her how fickle she's been in her "infatuations" it got to her. When her mom said she's lowering her standards for me it got to her. She started doubting and now she's unsure about her feelings. She said she needed space to figure it out and so when I didn't talk to her for over a day she got upset and said "why didn't you call?" then she got paranoid and said "don't think that ignoring me will draw me in." I wasn't doing that.

"I don't know if I'm worth it Navid. I don't know if I can ever love you as much as you love me."

"Let me make that decision."

"But it'd be unfair on you. I don't want to you to get hurt."

She's got a reason for everything and I doubt I've ever managed to convince her on anything in the past. But the thing is... she has all these doubts when she's with her parents, when i'm not around and when I'm not there and the moment that I am -- the moment we're together and we're talking she gives in. She has no doubts. But it's easier to just let go of all that and comply to her parents because it'd be socially more acceptable. So for the time being it's been in this strange grey area for about a week.

Then yesterday happened.

I made a mistake. I did something insensitive and ended up making her feel insulted in front of people despite the fact that there wasn't anyone there she knew. I didn't intend to, of course, it was purely accidental, but it happened. I didn't verbally insult her but she said that I was mean to her. I apologised. And apologised. And apologised. She said she couldn't talk because of her dad. So we texted. And that was that. What gets to me now is that she's comparing this to something that happened in the past, and saying that some of her trust has been fractured because of this. I didn't verbally insult her and I think she's exaggerating it. What I really think is that she's trying to find all these reasons to give her a good enough excuse to turn be down and not feel guilty about it.

I don't want this to end that way. I don't want this to end at all. She's giving into her fears and taking the easy way out. Whenever I listen to her and slow down and give her time, her parents start speeding things up by insisting on suitors that they'll meet in Boston next week, or having her transferred to a different college, or move away altogether -- and between me and her parents she says she feels trapped and crushed and can't make a decision on her own.

And the decision she's making is really turning out to be -- "I don't care for him enough. He's not good enough. I have to end this and focus on work."

This will go down as "I gave him a chance. It didn't work out. He's too mean and obsessive and not really qualified or good-looking enough. Plus I saw how he lied to his parents just to go out with me, what kind of a person does that? He's too obsessive. Such a sweet boy but our timing was just never right. Oh well."

And I'll be forgotten.

This hasn't happened yet. But it sure feels as though that's where it's heading.

Just give me one piece of advice -- regarding the whole "publicly being insulted" thing and "being mean" thing -- and between all the "don't push me i need space and time" and all of this -- what do I do? What do I do to not make this the only reason in her mind? I won't be seeing her for almost a week. Do I call her up despite the fact that it keeps getting her into trouble with her dad? We can text but do I text her first again?

[The Guard]

What did you do to publicy insult her, exactly?

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

Well, like I say though, if you're an effective douche it hardly matters.

I suppose we're talking about the ineffective ones.

There's no such thing as an effective douche. If you're an insensitive and insecure person who needs to constantly boast himself in public and verbally abuse others to feel better then that's not being effective.

People call me uptight and judgemental and write that up as one of my more negative traits of being introverted. I'm still figuring out how much introverted I really am because I think it goes somewhere inbetween. I mean, I've done wonders for having been moving constantly from one place to another all my life and still being able to be sensitive towards others. Like with this girl -- I love her way too much. I notice the minute things she does and I don't know, with her I really finally allowed myself to care so deeply about someone and we were serious and now this happens.

Thing is. Our intentions do not matter. People when they get hurt or feel having been overpowered they interpret your actions in a way to make you sound like a "douchebag" whereas in reality what happens is that you probably unconsciously poked in a place they didn't like going. It's like that joke on Cracked.com where you're saying how awesome you are at having sex in your car and then one night after drinking too much you shat in the backseat while bumping uglies and the next morning you had to pay $200 just to get that cleaned up -- it's a funny story, you share it with your colleagues -- but that single-father who hasn't had sex in 3 years, can't afford a car and doesn't have $50 dollars to spare on cleaning his own **** would just label you as a douche for "boasting" how higher up you are in the social sphere. You didn't do it on purpose but he felt smaller and that lead to him labelling you as a douche and yknow, not have conversations with you in the future.

It's the same for how the kid might be complaining about what a ***** his mom was and the more socially-alpha guy wonders "but my mom died last year of cancer...."

It doesn't matter if you're a social climber or not, we all have those little insecurities and those things that someone else in any given conversation is better at and we aren't. When that gets pricked, consciously or not, it makes us want to hate the guy.

I don't believe that people shouldn't be judged -- they should be judged based on what they do. Their intentions, at the end of the day, count for *****. Who am I to not be judged?

I think something like that happened with my girlfriend yesterday and it's only made the entire doubt of whether or not we're compatible that much worse for her. And that much easier for her to think that I'm not the right one. I don't want to lose her.

Damn it I don't want to lose her. I'm spending every single night here trying to just pass it because unlike her, I do stay up late and it hurts that there's no one to talk to. It hurts that she isn't there. That she'll be turning me down in a few days and that I'll be forgotten and judged by every single thing I tried so well to do but couldn't accomplish. It'll be the same hollow place that I went to after being turned down for not being good enough for the colleges I wanted to enroll in. Of not being good enough. And... that fear of being abandoned. Of hurting those I care for the most and then having to see them go away and forget me. I can't believe that in the course of one week she brought me back to that place.

[Erzengel]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

Just give me one piece of advice -- regarding the whole "publicly being insulted" thing and "being mean" thing -- and between all the "don't push me i need space and time" and all of this -- what do I do? What do I do to not make this the only reason in her mind? I won't be seeing her for almost a week. Do I call her up despite the fact that it keeps getting her into trouble with her dad? We can text but do I text her first again?

I understand you live in a conservative culture, but she's in a very difficult position. I don't know how serious her parents are with cutting her off financially and I don't know if it's an acceptable part of your society to boot her out or something.

There's only so much you can do. You are extremely limited. Financially, socially, etc.

You also need her to want to fight and it doesn't seem like she's going/willing to do that.

You have to be kinda honest with yourself if you think this can work.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by The Guard

What did you do to publicy insult her, exactly?

That's one of the more ridiculous things... maybe it's cultural or personal I don't exactly know anymore. I was mean to her and said I wouldn't be waiting for her friend, when she kept on saying she wanted to wait, I told her "Let's go already" and I was loud and impatient about it.

I didn't sleep, I was scared of losing her, I was the closest I could get to being drunk without any actual alcohol. She said a few people were looking at her when that happened. But she's been paranoid about "people looking at her" ever since her father said she wasn't allowed to go out with anyone. Thing is. In the end, I didn't grab her arm and pull her out. I did wait for her friend. I was just being impatient while I stood around. We joked about people afterwards but I saw she was upset about something. Later on I sent her a text to apologise. That's when she told me she was afraid I'd keep on making these fits whenever I get emotional and intentionally or not, I'd insult her. "It starts that way."

I apologised. Several times. I need to do something better to make her feel as though I'm not that guy. I'm not loud or irrational or pushy. Obsessive, yes, and sensitive to everything she does. Introverted, yes. But not a sociopath.

[Deathlok]

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

I am having the worst of it this week. It just keeps getting bad to worse and I think, I'm afraid, that I will be losing her. Instinctively. I feels as though I'm going to lose her down the line.

And good god I don't want to. I don't want that to happen. I love her. Unconditionally.

She says she needs time to figure out whether we're compatible or not, an issue that I had brought up before we got together to begin with, she says she needs space and I admit I've been acting way too needy for that. It got her into trouble. It's as ridiculous as trying to win at rock-paper-scissors with yourself. I'll elaborate.

We're living in a very conservative culture, so any casual ideas of dating or hooking up is very limited to a small niche group and neither of us are a part of that. Or our families. For the past month since we started going out and really being absolutely happy with each other everything seemed perfect. She got really excited and we were serious. She told her mother how much she cared about me but the mother didn't believe it. The mother believes me to be a lying, manipulative junkie who is stuck in a mediocre college in a third-world country (the same college her daughter goes to btw) on account of being the absolute loser that I am and that my chosen major (the same major her daughter is working on: Literature) tells a lot about how lazy and financially irresponsible I am. "No only someone with an Ivy League degree" she said, "you're lowering your standards. The last guys you liked were so better looking! ___ and ___ are better suitors!" Her father took the dramatics a step further, threatening her that he'd stop financing her education if she kept seeing me, and gave her an ultimatum of talking over the phone for only 5 minutes and never after 11. Yes. She's in college. But that's beside the point. Her mother put a lot of doubt in her head and it was a very emotionally constricted place where they kept blaming her for being dumb and irresponsible (she isn't. She's lived her entire life as a dutiful child and a responsible little girl who does well in her studies and what not -- kinda like me -- even the part about being a little girl but let's not start making fun of me just yet).

She... complied.

She told me she needs more time to figure it out and that she needs her space, and I admit I haven't really done a good job at giving her her space but yeah. Throughout the month we've been dating there's always been two really bad negative elephants in the room: the fact that I'm an introvert and she isn't, and the fact that we were doing all of this behind her parents' backs which made it difficult. She has been genuinely in love with me and this is the second time in over a year that we worked things out and got together, it was only last month that we made it official. It was too early to tell her folks, as most of my friends say, but the damage has been done. When her mom told her how fickle she's been in her "infatuations" it got to her. When her mom said she's lowering her standards for me it got to her. She started doubting and now she's unsure about her feelings. She said she needed space to figure it out and so when I didn't talk to her for over a day she got upset and said "why didn't you call?" then she got paranoid and said "don't think that ignoring me will draw me in." I wasn't doing that.

"I don't know if I'm worth it Navid. I don't know if I can ever love you as much as you love me."

"Let me make that decision."

"But it'd be unfair on you. I don't want to you to get hurt."

She's got a reason for everything and I doubt I've ever managed to convince her on anything in the past. But the thing is... she has all these doubts when she's with her parents, when i'm not around and when I'm not there and the moment that I am -- the moment we're together and we're talking she gives in. She has no doubts. But it's easier to just let go of all that and comply to her parents because it'd be socially more acceptable. So for the time being it's been in this strange grey area for about a week.

Then yesterday happened.

I made a mistake. I did something insensitive and ended up making her feel insulted in front of people despite the fact that there wasn't anyone there she knew. I didn't intend to, of course, it was purely accidental, but it happened. I didn't verbally insult her but she said that I was mean to her. I apologised. And apologised. And apologised. She said she couldn't talk because of her dad. So we texted. And that was that. What gets to me now is that she's comparing this to something that happened in the past, and saying that some of her trust has been fractured because of this. I didn't verbally insult her and I think she's exaggerating it. What I really think is that she's trying to find all these reasons to give her a good enough excuse to turn be down and not feel guilty about it.

I don't want this to end that way. I don't want this to end at all. She's giving into her fears and taking the easy way out. Whenever I listen to her and slow down and give her time, her parents start speeding things up by insisting on suitors that they'll meet in Boston next week, or having her transferred to a different college, or move away altogether -- and between me and her parents she says she feels trapped and crushed and can't make a decision on her own.

And the decision she's making is really turning out to be -- "I don't care for him enough. He's not good enough. I have to end this and focus on work."

This will go down as "I gave him a chance. It didn't work out. He's too mean and obsessive and not really qualified or good-looking enough. Plus I saw how he lied to his parents just to go out with me, what kind of a person does that? He's too obsessive. Such a sweet boy but our timing was just never right. Oh well."

And I'll be forgotten.

This hasn't happened yet. But it sure feels as though that's where it's heading.

Just give me one piece of advice -- regarding the whole "publicly being insulted" thing and "being mean" thing -- and between all the "don't push me i need space and time" and all of this -- what do I do? What do I do to not make this the only reason in her mind? I won't be seeing her for almost a week. Do I call her up despite the fact that it keeps getting her into trouble with her dad? We can text but do I text her first again?

I'm sorry, but it sounds to me as if she just wants to break up with you and is essentially trying to let you down easily while doing it.

From what I have been able to glean from your post above, you have bent over backward to accommodate her. You could simply succumb to every demand she makes and wants, you might get another few months or so. Until it reaches the point where she is so fed up with the situation she just out and out dumps you with no regards as to your feelings.

It's a hard situation, but if I were you, I would just finish with her and walk away. It will be less painful for you in the long term.

Been there, and I hung it out for as long as I could. I just ended up being a doormat and she dumped me anyway.

Don't do it to yourself. No-one is worth losing your dignity over.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by Erzengel

I understand you live in a conservative culture, but she's in a very difficult position. I don't know how serious her parents are with cutting her off financially and I don't know if it's an acceptable part of your society to boot her out or something.

There's only so much you can do. You are extremely limited. Financially, socially, etc.

You also need her to want to fight and it doesn't seem like she's going/willing to do that.

You have to be kinda honest with yourself if you think this can work.

Her father will never stop her finances. He was over-reacting. Things like that happen in this culture and moreso with girls but that's not where her family stems from. They emphasise a lot on her academics to ever do that. But if she's not willing to fight -- thing is, she shouldn't have told her mom to begin with, because her mom thinks that since it's only been a month she's just having an infatuation and that it'd go away. But some of her parents' demands for the perfect guy is just painfully hilarious: Ivy League graduate, filthy rich, suitably white and has no track record of any prior relationships. Also 27. Who isn't a lit-major or a lawyer. And note that we're not exactly caucasians here. Though yeah her entire family is really, really fair-skinned.

Conservative culture places love and compatibility as a secondary and laughable idea next to social and economic stability.

I think she's looking for reasons to let go of me because she's genuinely afraid that her parents won't let her be with me. I, genuinely, think we can make this work if she's willing to fight.

What do you mean that I should be honest about it?

[Optimus_Prime_]

'Nave', in all honesty, she seems like a drastically different person from you. You seem to have very strict morals, which for good or ill probably are not going to change any time soon. I would suggest trying to find a girl more that speed.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by Deathlok

I'm sorry, but it sounds to me as if she just wants to break up with you and is essentially trying to let you down easily while doing it.

From what I have been able to glean from your post above, you have bent over backward to accommodate her. You could simply succumb to every demand she makes and wants, you might get another few months or so. Until it reaches the point where she is so fed up with the situation she just out and out dumps you with no regards as to your feelings.

It's a hard situation, but if I were you, I would just finish with her and walk away. It will be less painful for you in the long term.

Been there, and I hung it out for as long as I could. I just ended up being a doormat and she dumped me anyway.

Don't do it to yourself. No-one is worth losing your dignity over.

That's what I figure as well. But she still says she wants "time to figure it out" do I give her that?

And well, I don't want her to rationalize this as "he was mean to me so I dumped him." Based on the description -- was I really even mean to her at all?

Last year we stopped speaking for a while because of something similar. She was crying and was all jittery was walking around and I told her to stop and by grabbing her arm. She interpreted that as a public display of having physically violated her space. This is too similar. I mean, later when we were together she did say that she was being a ***** to me and that I still kept on being nice and that I never hated her no matter what. She did say that she overdid it to push me away because at the time she got scared.

She's doing the same thing. I don't know if telling her that would be a good idea now or not. I honestly don't know what I should do anymore. Should I apologize again so that she can't use this as an excuse? Will doing something nicer really work or will she just read it as me being pushy again?

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

'Nave', in all honesty, she seems like a drastically different person from you. You seem to have very strict morals, which for good or ill probably are not going to change any time soon. I would suggest trying to find a girl more that speed.

so much negativity around me these days. Whatever happened to "take a leap of faith" and "leave it to fate" and all that jazz?

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

so much negativity around me these days. Whatever happened to "take a leap of faith" and "leave it to fate" and all that jazz?

I mean, you're welcome to do that, still, as far as I know there aren't any laws against it.

It just reminds me of my friend who is gaa-gaa over the pothead yet cleaner than my kitchen floor (which is pretty f***ing clean). It's a nice sentiment, but unless you're willing to change yourself, which honestly it doesn't seem like you are nor does it seem important for you to do so, then it simply doesn't appear like it will work. She already seems to be sensing this as well.

Nice while it lasted? That's one way to think of it I think.

[Erzengel]

Originally Posted by Nave 'Torment'

What do you mean that I should be honest about it?

I mean you don't have real options?

Can you go over to her house? No.

Can you call her? No.

I mean the most you can do is talk to her at school?

It might be easier if you 2 are on your own but it's a lot tougher when you are both living with your parents.

[Nave 'Torment']

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

I mean, you're welcome to do that, still, as far as I know there aren't any laws against it.

It just reminds me of my friend who is gaa-gaa over the pothead yet cleaner than my kitchen floor (which is pretty f***ing clean). It's a nice sentiment, but unless you're willing to change yourself, which honestly it doesn't seem like you are nor does it seem important for you to do so, then it simply doesn't appear like it will work. She already seems to be sensing this as well.

Nice while it lasted? That's one way to think of it I think.

Yeah I remember that friend of yours. Thing is, it's not like I have any other choice but to think of it as "nice while it lasted." It's unfortunate though. It's unfortunate because

Originally Posted by Erzengel

I mean you don't have real options?

Can you go over to her house? No.

Can you call her? No.

I mean the most you can do is talk to her at school?

It might be easier if you 2 are on your own but it's a lot tougher when you are both living with your parents.

Even if we did live on our own it wouldn't make a difference if her folks were so confined about it. Was I really that insulting to her?

It's obvious that the ball is in her court but what do I do? Do I give her the time, or do I back out early and come off as a mean-spirited person?

I mean. If this doesn't work out. It'll be all those insecurities coming back, confirming that yes The things I cannot change about myself are the reasons why I am unhappy . Because seriously? College-enrollment? Financial standing? SKIN-COLOUR?! Being INTROVERTED? Having PRINCIPLES?? I don't get that.

But if she ends this based on my being mean to her in public? That'll be worse off. I'll be condemning myself for having once again hurt someone I deeply care for and having hurt her because I cared. What makes all this frustrating is that we were great friends before and I don't want to lose that while I can't be a good friend to her afterwards but still would feel deeply, deeply effected and trapped if she transfers away. It'd be that place where I can't stand seeing her because "wow, there you go, a living example of i-am-not-good-enough" and if she leaves it'd be "good god I am trapped and everything I ever wanted is outside of this hellhole."

What makes this difficult is that through every step she's been truthful. What she says is what she really means. Even when she's wrong. She actually believes them. Guys. Please. I'm really confused here. What do I do? how can i be more patient?

[Optimus_Prime_]

I don't see why your emotional security hinges on this working out.