The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - Part 143

[ThePhantasm]

I think the emnity of Batman and the Joker, as a battle between order / chaos, tragedy driving heroism and mirth driving evil, messianic figure of truth versus Satanic liar and jokester, etc. is about as epic in a mythological sense as you can get. Nolan played off of a lot the available imagery / archetypes associated with those two characters and that's why the story was so rich and multi-layered. I think that's pretty epic.

TDK was a crime thriller until the Joker fully enters the scene. Then it picks up into something else... an epic battle of philosophies, with Harvey Dent torn apart in the middle.

[BatLobsterRises]

I think the whole trilogy is one giant multi-layered epic and all three of them comprise one of the great modern myths. I'm just saying BB, and especially TDKR go for more of that "Lawrence of Arabia" kind of vibe. Evoking the epic, just as TDK evoked the crime film/psychological thriller. Thematically, they're all dealing with very universal and old ideas.

Moral of the story...Batman is epic.

[ThePhantasm]

Agreed.

[BlueLightning]

I think epic applies better to the scope and size of the film, I think there is a genre of film that qualifies as epic. And to be fair, Rises is bigger in scope and size than TDK.

That said, I find the conflict in TDK more appealing for the reasons listed above.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

Begins and TDK weren't epics?

Not really when you think about each films' themes.

Batman Begins - a more enhanced and thought out superhero origin

The Dark Knight - crime thriller

The Dark Knight Rises - war epic mixed with a disaster film

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

I think the emnity of Batman and the Joker, as a battle between order / chaos, tragedy driving heroism and mirth driving evil, messianic figure of truth versus Satanic liar and jokester, etc. is about as epic in a mythological sense as you can get. Nolan played off of a lot the available imagery / archetypes associated with those two characters and that's why the story was so rich and multi-layered. I think that's pretty epic.

TDK was a crime thriller until the Joker fully enters the scene. Then it picks up into something else... an epic battle of philosophies, with Harvey Dent torn apart in the middle.

Co-signed.

Frankly I find TDK far more epic than what TDKR offered.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

Then again... the philosophical battle between Batman and The Joker is just so damn fascinating, it's not exactly hard for TDK to take the top spot.

[BatLobsterRises]

I guess what was striking about TDKR is it actually felt like a historical epic, but it still felt like a Batman story through and through. It was a great tone and aesthetic for the story of Bruce Wayne finding the will to live as a man, while the Batman legend made its ascent to immortality.

TDK was about coming face to face with Satan and ultimately losing. It was an epic conflict, but because of Rachel's death and Dent's fate, I see TDK more as a tragedy than an epic. Maybe that's splitting hairs, I dunno. I honestly just love all the movies. Ranking them feels arbitrary to me at times when each has such a specific and vital role to play in a much grander tale.

[theShape]

Originally Posted by Pfeiffer-Pfan

Then again... the philosophical battle between Batman and The Joker is just so damn fascinating, it's not exactly hard for TDK to take the top spot.

Yeah, TDK will always be my favorite purely for that reason. (Also one of the reasons I really prefer B89 to Batman Returns)

I've always loved the idea that Batman and the Joker represented complete archetypal opposites, despite being quite similar psychologically. Batman is the ying to the Joker's yang. Both the worlds' greatest hero and villain, if you ask me.

[JDonaldD]

I love Bane in TDKR but I think he lacked the personal, philosophical battle that Bruce had with Joker. There are some great moments with Bane like his monologue in the prison but other than that it's a bit lacking. I think the movie has most of the ground work for an interesting philosophical battle but it doesn't go all the way. When Batman finally defeats Bane, the reward is not philosophical like when Bats defeats the Joker or vice versa in TDK, it's just a physical thing in Rises. There could have been more emphasis on pain and Bruce overcoming it, rather than living with it like Bane does. It's all kinda there but not as realized or compelling as TDK.

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Ranking them feels arbitrary to me at times when each has such a specific and vital role to play in a much grander tale.

I agree. Sometimes when I try to rank comic book films, I just come to terms to rank them as a single entity, The Dark Knight Trilogy.

[theShape]

Originally Posted by JDonaldD

I love Bane in TDKR but I think he lacked the personal, philosophical battle that Bruce had with Joker. There are some great moments with Bane like his monologue in the prison but other than that it's a bit lacking. I think the movie has most of the ground work for an interesting philosophical battle but it doesn't go all the way. When Batman finally defeats Bane, the reward is not philosophical like when Bats defeats the Joker or vice versa in TDK, it's just a physical thing in Rises. There could have been more emphasis on pain and Bruce overcoming it, rather than living with it like Bane does. It's all kinda there but not as realized or compelling as TDK.

C'mon, though, there's no way Bane is better, cooler, or more important than the battle that Batman had with the Joker. No matter how Nolan chose to portray Bane, the character just doesn't match up to the Joker. Never has in any medium (comics, animation, video games) and never will on film.

Bane was still pretty great and provided an awesome physical opponent for Batman.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by theShape

I've always loved the idea that Batman and the Joker represented complete archetypal opposites, despite being quite similar psychologically. Batman is the ying to the Joker's yang. Both the worlds' greatest hero and villain, if you ask me.

Well put. It's for those reasons that Joker's lines like "You complete me" and "I think you and I are destined to do this forever" have such deep meaning and resonance because they are a ying/yang relationship.

It's like black vs white. Order vs chaos. Even the comics touched on that;

[BatLobsterRises]

Joker will always be Batman's mortal enemy. Only not really, cause they won't actually kill each other ('cept in Batman 89). They're locked in perpetual battle. That's why the, "You and I are destined to do this forever" line always worked for me without any expectation of The Joker returning in a sequel to TDK. It's almost metaphysical. Like somewhere, somehow, on some other plane or alternate universe...they'll be at it again, because they're just two larger than life concepts battling it out. They can't escape each other.

And as we all know, indeed we will one day see them facing off on the big screen again.

[ThePhantasm]

Its interesting that Ras, Joker, and Bane are all sort of Satanic archenemy figures. Ras Al Ghul means "The Demon's Head" and he functions much like Satan did in the Old Testament, as an "Accuser," arguing that Gotham is "beyond saving." The Joker is obviously a man who enjoys causing chaos and tempting others to evil (the ferries, "hit me," Harvey Dent). Bane is mentioned as being "born and raised in hell on earth," calls himself "a necessary evil," and mirrors Ras in a lot of ways. Nolan really seems to draw on this imagery to present compelling villains without going overboard with it.

[BlueLightning]

[A Necessary Evil]

Very awesome

[Panthro]

Okay, we all love the Joker, but riddle me this - if Heath Ledger hadn't died and returned as the Joker for TDKR, would the rematch with Batman have really been as intense and chilling as the clash in TDK?

Honestly, I think it's better to mix it up with the villains and not rely on just one, keeps things fresh.

EDIT: Awesome pic by the way.

[the last son]

Heck yes it would have been even more chilling. He didn't need to be the main villain but joker and batman needed to have a fight to the death

[the last son]

And while not trying to rip off of TDK returns that to me in a realistic way is how all joker and batman bouts should end. Especially in a trilogy. I wanted to see this joker and batman in an abandoned warehouse slugging it out and somehow Joker gets eliminated. Kind of like Carl in ghost. Something like that.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by the last son

Heck yes it would have been even more chilling. He didn't need to be the main villain but joker and batman needed to have a fight to the death

There's a movie where you can see that... came out in 1989.

[the last son]

I meant kind of like the batman and bane scene. No music very little dialogue. And not really in the dark tho. I mean it's sunrays coming through the blinds and this place is filth

[BlueLightning]

So you would have wanted something like in The Dark Knight Returns? You could watch that movie too.

Honestly, I prefer it this way. Keep the clown "Locked in a padded cell forever".

[Anno_Domini]

Lol. Either way, basically the last son can watch a movie where Batman and Joker clash to the death.

I honestly don't know what I would have wanted to see from Joker if Ledger hadn't died. One day I would have wanted something similar to TDKReturns(where Bane could have still been one of the villains), and then another day would be Joker showing up as the judge(although it may not make much sense since Joker wouldn't be someone that would work alongside Bane), and then another would be Joker just being mentioned as having broken out of Arkham Asylum.

BUT...I do like the idea of Bane having revealed the Dent lie. Even if Joker was in TDKR, I would have preferred Bane to still be the one who makes the reveal as it adds to the entire siege and all.

*waiting for numerous replies on why Joker would've been better to reveal the lie or how the siege didn't work at all*

[BlueLightning]

Actually, I don't see how Bane could have released the Joker. He is far too dangerous. If Bane knew about him, I think he would have let him in Arkham.