Question Regarding Batman's First Fight With Bane

[RAINMAKER]

Originally Posted by the last son

Then it's the mask. I know Bruce is not on top of his game but any person Batman or a regular civilian in a fight with bane would target his mask. But the first fight as I said was really great, the second fight not so much. Bane was defeated way too easily. Why is Batman sitting here listening to Talia and letting Bane tie a rope around him? Why did Bane even put a rope around him? He was going to just shoot him.

For a civilian, punching Bane's mask with your bare hands, would hurt. However, I don't think Batman was targeting his mask in the first fight because the sound effect was different. In the first fight, it sounded like Batman was punching Bane's head. In the second fight, you can hear a "clicking" sound when Batman was hitting the mask.

The movie version of the 2nd fight sucked, especially with the cut scenes. If you watch it uncut on Youtube, it's a lot better.

But yeah, overall, the 2nd fight wasn't very good.

[RAINMAKER]

Originally Posted by JDonaldD

This thread is an example of what happens when the movies been out for a while and people are looking to hard for nitpicks. It's a super hero movie. If bane couldn't punch through Batman's armor or lift him over his head everyone would hate Nolan for neutering the character. You can't win with some people. Sometimes it comes down to whether you like the movie or don't. It's fine if you don't but if you don't want to like it, you'll find flaws in everything.

I wasn't trying to "nit pick", just trying to understand. However, if I was trying to "nit pick", the kicking of the bricks was a head scratcher to me considering he was in poor health and was walking with a cane.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Originally Posted by Excelsior.

That's because Bane >>> bricks.

Fact. Bane punched through a pillar at city hall without bloodying his knuckles. Or, possibly, Talia slipped it off during coitus. Can you imagine how bad it'd hurt if Bruce accidentally kicked her while they were knocking boots?

@Rainmaker: I also think Bruce was going for Bane's head in the first fight, given that the skin is so exposed.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by RAINMAKER

I think because Nolan needed to show Batman getting his butt kicked. Batman was arrogant and probably felt that he didn't need much in his arsenal to beat Bane.

I find that painfully out of character for Batman - especially a seasoned Batman at the end of his career. Batman is not reckless, and he's not stupid.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by JDonaldD

This thread is an example of what happens when the movies been out for a while and people are looking to hard for nitpicks.

On the contrary, it's just basic logic. The first time I saw the film there were things that baffled me or frustrated me. It's not a matter of spending time nitpicking and over-analyzing long after it's come out, it's a matter of the film failing to be convincing here and there.

When you're distracted by something that seems off the very first time you see the movie, when they can't suspend your disbelief, that's legitimately an issue.

It's fine if you don't but if you don't want to like it, you'll find flaws in everything.

To automatically assume that someone didn't want to like it is uncalled for. There may be a few people who went in as haters, but the vast majority are let down because they DID want to like it and it didn't live up to their excitement and support of it.

The only thing more uncalled for than accusing someone with a legitimate criticism of that is telling them that the movie is only black and white, no shades of grey, and if they don't see it the way you see it, they're just being bratty.

Let's cut that crap out and discuss things civilly.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

The best way I can explain it, Rusty, is that Bruce didn't want to walk away from his fight with Bane. Or perhaps felt he had nothing to lose, given his exchange with Alfred in the Batcave and Alfred's fears that Bruce wanted to fail.

After the Joker, it does seem careless, I give you that. Bruce made that same mistake with the clown.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by Mr. Wooden Alligator

The best way I can explain it, Rusty, is that Bruce didn't want to walk away from his fight with Bane. Or perhaps felt he had nothing to lose, given his exchange with Alfred in the Batcave and Alfred's fears that Bruce wanted to fail.

The last bit I might accept if it were more strongly suggested, but Bruce didn't seem to agree with Alfred in that scene. He came across as confident and refreshed, not suicidal.

There was really nothing for Alfred to even base that conclusion of him on in the first place, so that scene always felt weird to me, like Alfred was unnecessarily being a dick - which he proceeds to do again later before abandoning him. So much for the awesome, classic 'Nevah'. :/

My problem isn't with the fact that he didn't want to back down from the fight so much as it is that he let himself get so painfully duped into the situation in such an obvious way.

Batman would be far more likely to do some tail work, stay in the shadows, wait for a point of vulnerability, strike out of nowhere.

He also didn't bother trying to escape despite being clearly outmatched - even when he bought himself the opportunity by shutting the lights off.

Also, what was the stupid crackle pellet thing? What was that supposed to do? Make someone blink? He was already bested in the fight, and Bane was looking right at him while he did it, so intimidation and surprise were out the window if that was the idea. Very amateur.

[The Guard]

I think the "crackle pellet thing" is supposed to be a flash bang. That's what the script says it is anyway.

I don't think the Nolans know what a flash-bang is.

That or the thermite in his belt is old and its a nod to THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by RAINMAKER

Oh yeah, how does Bruce kick through bricks, but can't inflict any damage on Bane? Has anybody else noticed that inconstancy?

Bane is under heavy sedation, I doubt he can feel to much. It's Nolan's version of Venom.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

I find that painfully out of character for Batman - especially a seasoned Batman at the end of his career. Batman is not reckless, and he's not stupid.

Although he was reckless. He only thought Bane as a mercenary and just went after him while they were on that narrow platform.

But when it comes to the flashbangs/stun pellets, I always thought that was a way to just distract Bane as much as turning the lights off. Batman needed to rest and get his mind right on attacking, but neither worked as neither effected Bane. Batman was trying to get Bane away for as long as he could, because as we can see, when Bane found Batman while the lights were off, Batman was standing up; I saw that as Batman trying to get it "all together", but his plan was cut off. Batman never had the upper hand and never got focused or his mind right.

And then with the idea of Batman using those darts at Bane...that was something that can work when Batman is invisible. And just throwing a dart at Bane would be foolish because Bane would have simply avoided them.

[storyteller]

Hindsight is a ***** but lets look at it.

Bane constructed the cage to counter Batmans little grappling trick. There are limited number of areas to hide and Bane has mercs ready to shoot are guy down.

Now first off Bruce is sorta out of his prime shape and he's cocky. He is not ready for Banes strength and resistance to injury. Bane can take what Batman can dish out.

Bane get's Bruce angry and doesn't let up. Batman is hitting as hard as he can and Bane isn't even stunned. Bane is letting Batman tire himself out. As the fight goes on he is mentally breaking Batman with his failure.

Bane meanwhile is making shots that count. He's getting in some serious head shots and prime areas on the chest.

Batman throws gas bombs because honestly they have worked in the past. Bane just keeps looking forward.

The fight goes on and Batman is getting tired. Bane chokes Batman and that's making Batman dizzy.

At this point Batman is just gone. He's not making the shots that count.


Then the darkness. Again this is Banes cage. Bane also seems to be able to see in the dark(and of course is trained for this combat). Batman can move around all he likes but he's got nowhere to really go. Also he probably intended to get Bane in a choke hold.


Now the the fight is basically over. Bane knocks Batman senseless.


Folks are talking about Batman being on the defensive or escaping. Banes cage prevents that. Bane puts Batman down in five minutes. In the moment, Bruce has rarely been beaten in a fist fight as Batman. His pride cost him the fight. That's really there all is to it. Some of you guys are thinking that Batman is Spock and he works on pure logic and no ego.


Now in the next fight though Bruce changes the game. Bane doesn't control the battlefield. He's ready for this fight.
Batman does what Bane did. He lets Bane take all the shots. He covers himself. Bane is stronger then him, he knows this now. But now Bruce is aiming for that damn mask. He's reducing the advantage Bane has. Bane punches the pillar but all those shots are to Batmans heavily armored arms. Bane isn't getting in all those head shots. Batman is also letting his speed aid him.

Again the first fight isn't just that Bane is a better fighter, it's that Bruce underestimated his foe dearly. He didn't expect to be fighting someone more fierce then Ra's.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Although he was reckless. He only thought Bane as a mercenary and just went after him while they were on that narrow platform.

Well yeah, that's foolish. Is this a defense or an agreement?

But when it comes to the flashbangs/stun pellets, I always thought that was a way to just distract Bane as much as turning the lights off. Batman needed to rest and get his mind right on attacking, but neither worked as neither effected Bane. Batman was trying to get Bane away for as long as he could, because as we can see, when Bane found Batman while the lights were off, Batman was standing up; I saw that as Batman trying to get it "all together", but his plan was cut off. Batman never had the upper hand and never got focused or his mind right.

We shouldn't have to make up reasons for things that aren't explained well in a film... Even if you're right, they should have communicated it better.

This is where comics have the upper hand in that inner dialogue can express what's going through Batman's mind. Technically, they could do that in the films, but I think they're afraid of it coming off as corny.

I think that fear is probably valid.

And then with the idea of Batman using those darts at Bane...that was something that can work when Batman is invisible. And just throwing a dart at Bane would be foolish because Bane would have simply avoided them.

Really? He didn't bother avoiding the crackle pellets, so who's to say he wouldn't have still just stood there like a tough guy?

Surely the distinction of tiny objects pulled from Batman's pockets being thrown at him is hard to make in micro seconds. I don't think the object being thrown mattered to Bane.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by storyteller

Hindsight is a ***** but lets look at it.

Bane constructed the cage to counter Batmans little grappling trick. There are limited number of areas to hide and Bane has mercs ready to shoot are guy down.

Batman has taken out armed mercs in the dark before.

In the same movie.

Now first off Bruce is sorta out of his prime shape and he's cocky.

Not a logical thing for Bruce to ever be, in my opinion.

I realize he's been written this way before, but it's never made sense.

Batman throws gas bombs because honestly they have worked in the past. Bane just keeps looking forward.

When did they ever work in the past? These are hardly 'gas bombs' anyway - or 'bombs' at all.

The only other time he ever used this explosive powder on screen was mimicking Ra's' demonstration while training with him - once.

Batman can move around all he likes but he's got nowhere to really go.

Folks are talking about Batman being on the defensive or escaping. Banes cage prevents that.

This is not true. Throughout the fight you see water flowing. It's an open sewer.

He could have escaped the same way Gordon did. No grapple necessary.

His pride cost him the fight. That's really there all is to it. Some of you guys are thinking that Batman is Spock and he works on pure logic and no ego.

Ideally, yes. He's that smart and mature deep into his career (which is where he is in Rises). Ever hear the term 'Bat-God'? :P Or 'prep time Batman'?

He obviously exhibits this near-super ability of logic, ingenuity, and planning ahead in other ways throughout the trilogy, so it's surprising all that goes out the window for one measly fist fight.

[RustyCage]

For reference:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Right as Bane starts to attack after letting Batman get a few shots in, the camera pans around and you see a huge open sewer river below them.

There was plenty of opportunity to escape. Batman chose not to.

Edit: Also, what do you mean Batman isn't making shots that count??? He literally clobbers Bane's head and chest non-stop.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

Well yeah, that's foolish. Is this a defense or an agreement?

You said Batman isn't reckless, but he was in TDKR towards Bane because of how he viewed Bane as someone who's only some mercenary.

We shouldn't have to make up reasons for things that aren't explained well in a film... Even if you're right, they should have communicated it better.

This is where comics have the upper hand in that inner dialogue can express what's going through Batman's mind. Technically, they could do that in the films, but I think they're afraid of it coming off as corny.

I think that fear is probably valid.

I don't think it's making something up. I mean, he uses the flashbangs/stun pellets and almost right after turns the lights off. Why else would he use such tactics that would distract Bane?

Really? He didn't bother avoiding the crackle pellets, so who's to say he wouldn't have still just stood there like a tough guy?

Difference is that stun pellets are only meant for distraction. The darts would do more.

Surely the distinction of tiny objects pulled from Batman's pockets being thrown at him is hard to make in micro seconds. I don't think the object being thrown mattered to Bane.

Again, the difference is a dart that puts people to sleep, lol. But who knows, perhaps the dart wouldn't have worked on Bane anyways since he had a high tolerance level.

[BlueLightning]

Point is, Bruce maybe older but not necessarily wiser. After all, he has a death wish.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

You said Batman isn't reckless, but he was in TDKR towards Bane because of how he viewed Bane as someone who's only some mercenary.

I'm saying making him reckless in TDKR was counter to the logical progression of the character. There's no sense in him being reckless in TDKR, it's a poor interpretation.

I don't think it's making something up. I mean, he uses the flashbangs/stun pellets and almost right after turns the lights off. Why else would he use such tactics that would distract Bane?

Other possibilities have already been discussed. Surprise, intimidation, getting an edge. None of which hold up to scrutiny without making Batman look like he's behaving amateurly.

Needing to regroup is the only possibility that can't be dismissed, but it's also not very suggested. The movie paints it more like he's being desperate than buying time.

Difference is that stun pellets are only meant for distraction. The darts would do more.

Again, the difference is a dart that puts people to sleep, lol. But who knows, perhaps the dart wouldn't have worked on Bane anyways since he had a high tolerance level.

You're missing the point. There's no way Bane would have been able to discern what Batman pulls out of his belt in the time it takes him to throw them at him.

He realistically would have no idea what was being thrown at him. And I doubt he cared.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

Point is, Bruce maybe older but not necessarily wiser. After all, he has a death wish.

Bruce never does anything to imply this. He acts confident and refreshed, the opposite of suicidal.

Alfred just assumes it really brazenly based on nothing. That doesn't make it true.

[BlueLightning]

He does, but not in a suicidal sense. He is shown that he has no fear of death, and that makes him weaker. That's the whole point of the Pit scenes.

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by The Guard

I think the "crackle pellet thing" is supposed to be a flash bang. That's what the script says it is anyway.

I don't think the Nolans know what a flash-bang is.

That or the thermite in his belt is old and its a nod to THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS.

Yeah....they have no idea of what's a flash bang

Originally Posted by RustyCage

Bruce never does anything to imply this. He acts confident and refreshed, the opposite of suicidal.

Alfred just assumes it really brazenly based on nothing. That doesn't make it true.

I know in comics , main characters are never in any sort of danger. This is a very damaged man , emotionally and phisically , and at the very first moment he goes back to the street to fight criminals . He is very much suicidal. That's what Alfred points to him. He doesn't know his limits. And this works , because Nolan writes these characters in a much more practicable and relatable world.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

He does, but not in a suicidal sense. He is shown that he has no fear of death, and that makes him weaker. That's the whole point of the Pit scenes.

I'm not sure I follow you with him having a death wish, but not in a suicidal sense. That seems a bit contradictory.

No fear of death? Yeah, certainly. 100% agree there.

But wishing for it? That's just Alfred being unusually dickish to Bruce, not based on anything Bruce ever did in the film. Before or after.

In The Dark Knight Returns, there's a moment where Batman thinks to himself 'This would be a good death', so there's the idea that he has considered how he would like to go out, but I also never saw that as a desire to die.

My view of Batman is that he's too compelled to do as much good as he can for the world, no matter his suffering, to ever want to die.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by Tequilla

Yeah....they have no idea of what's a flash bang

Well, in their defense, they could have just altered it during filming without revising the script. Not that it makes any more sense to downgrade it from a blinding tool into some crackle puffs. lol

A lot of Heath's coolest stuff in TDK was ad-libbed though, so not everything adheres to the scripts. Sometimes that winds up being better, sometimes worse.

[BlueLightning]

OK. I must apologize myself, maybe I'm not using the term correctly. I searched for the correct meaning and I realize I'm not using it right. I used it before because it reminded me how Bruce Timm joked about DCAU Batman had a death wish according to the Starcrossed finally. I guess it just stuck me as the example you mention from The Dark Knight Returns, because I also got glimpses for it in Rises.

The film does hint to Bruce Wayne is seeking (unconsciously) to die in battle. It is mentioned by Alfred, and makes an impression on Bruce. He knows that Bruce isn't fit to be Batman anymore, and Bruce neglects this. It is mentioned by Bane and the prisons doctor too. Also it's something that in the end he overcame. He saw more to his life.

[BlueLightning]

Also I searched for the flash bang issue, here is a video of the real thing:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

So, there isn't really much difference.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

I'm saying making him reckless in TDKR was counter to the logical progression of the character. There's no sense in him being reckless in TDKR, it's a poor interpretation.

It is the logical progression when Wayne is kept out of the "game" for eight years and when he returns, he suspects everything to be easy this go around when he has never faced an enemy just like Bane, who's story was mysterious up until this point as Bruce only suspected Bane to be a simple mercenary. At least Alfred had some idea that Bruce should be careful since he's not in the shape that he used to be as Batman.

Other possibilities have already been discussed. Surprise, intimidation, getting an edge. None of which hold up to scrutiny without making Batman look like he's behaving amateurly.

Needing to regroup is the only possibility that can't be dismissed, but it's also not very suggested. The movie paints it more like he's being desperate than buying time.

If my suggestion is the only one that can't be dismissed, then I would think it's also the best way to think of it, wouldn't you say? Lol.

And desperation can still be Batman trying to regroup. He's desperate in the battle to try and regroup against a foe that's outmatching him every step.

You're missing the point. There's no way Bane would have been able to discern what Batman pulls out of his belt in the time it takes him to throw them at him.

We have never seen Batman throw something such as a batarang straight to someone, but with Bane having being stronger, faster(and smarter in the first round), I could see Bane dodging whatever sharp object Batman would try to throw his way.

He realistically would have no idea what was being thrown at him. And I doubt he cared.

Very true, but I would have still liked to have seen something similar of Batman trying to throw a sharp object at Bane and not just some pellets.