Question Regarding Batman's First Fight With Bane

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

Also I searched for the flash bang issue, here is a video of the real thing:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

So, there isn't really much difference.

No difference?! Look how much more smoke that sucker makes! haha

I guess they didn't specify whether it was meant to be a 'flash bang bomb' or 'flash bang pellets' in the script though.

The smoke volume from that video would have been much more efficient for Batman to have used there.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

It is the logical progression when Wayne is kept out of the "game" for eight years and when he returns, he suspects everything to be easy this go around when he has never faced an enemy just like Bane, who's story was mysterious up until this point as Bruce only suspected Bane to be a simple mercenary. At least Alfred had some idea that Bruce should be careful since he's not in the shape that he used to be as Batman.

You're still just reciting to me how Nolan wrote it. My response to that is always going to be: 'I don't find how Nolan wrote it to be a logical progression for this kind of character'.

If my suggestion is the only one that can't be dismissed, then I would think it's also the best way to think of it, wouldn't you say? Lol.

Well, it's the only reasonable suggestion of the moment's -defense- that's been provided. There's still the possibility that he was just being desperate and amateur. The movie doesn't specify between the two, and when you add into the equation that Nolan was portraying an arrogant, reckless Batman and Bane starts ridiculing him, it doesn't help Batman look much more clever.

And desperation can still be Batman trying to regroup. He's desperate in the battle to try and regroup against a foe that's outmatching him every step.

It doesn't necessarily mean that he's trying to regroup though.

We have never seen Batman throw something such as a batarang straight to someone, but with Bane having being stronger, faster(and smarter in the first round), I could see Bane dodging whatever sharp object Batman would try to throw his way.

I gotta say, I was hoping to see the Bat-shurikens appear again. Why did he even make them if he was only going to use them to cut out a few lights in one scene? :P

Very true, but I would have still liked to have seen something similar of Batman trying to throw a sharp object at Bane and not just some pellets.

I just think it should have been a more effective smoke bomb he used.

There was no substance to the pellets as a distraction in that circumstance, which should have been obvious to a seasoned Batman.

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

No difference?! Look how much more smoke that sucker makes! haha

I guess they didn't specify whether it was meant to be a 'flash bang bomb' or 'flash bang pellets' in the script though.

The smoke volume from that video would have been much more efficient for Batman to have used there.

Perhaps if they would have named it Bat-Flash Bangs it would be fine. Honestly, the thing seems rigged to behave in a certain way, just like most of the gadgets in the films. In my book, if the thing goes in circles exploding and making loud noises I would be worried. The poing being, Bane wasn't going to fall for such tricks.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

Perhaps if they would have named it Bat-Flash Bangs it would be fine. Honestly, the thing seems rigged to behave in a certain way, just like most of the gadgets in the films. In my book, if the thing goes in circles exploding and making loud noises I would be worried. The poing being, Bane wasn't going to fall for such tricks.

Of course he wasn't.

I'm just saying it would have been more logical and effective for Batman to make a smokescreen he could hide in or use to irritate Bane's eyes or throat than to make cute little crackles at someone who he KNOWS was trained by Ra's that would know about the flash powder, and more importantly also just kicked his ass, so there would be no room for intimidation.

[BlueLightning]

A flash bang is capable of blinding an enemy momentarily, so I wouldn't say that wasn't worth the try. As we learn later, Bane is impervious to this. Batman deactivated the all the lights with the EMP, better than the smokescreen, and yet Bane managed to beat him.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

A flash bang is capable of blinding an enemy momentarily, so I wouldn't say that wasn't worth the try. As we learn later, Bane is impervious to this. Batman deactivated the all the lights with the EMP, better than the smokescreen, and yet Bane managed to beat him.

The pellets he used weren't meant to be blinding. There's no way. And how can anyone be 'impervious' to being blinded?

They're just tools of theatricality. Meant to dazzle/surprise/confuse, and clearly Batman was in a position where none of those three things were possible. Yet he threw them anyway. Made no sense.

Further, a smoke bomb would have created more problems than just light visibility. Smoke is always moving, so it would help break up his shape. The sound of the bomb going off can rock the ears, helping to hide his movements and breathing. Smoke also irritates the eyes and throat. Batman already has lenses from the sonar machine that he could have easily repurposed as a protection device for such events, giving him the edge.

Etcetera.

[The Guard]

A flash bang is capable of blinding an enemy momentarily, so I wouldn't say that wasn't worth the try. As we learn later, Bane is impervious to this. Batman deactivated the all the lights with the EMP, better than the smokescreen, and yet Bane managed to beat him

Yes, but that wasn't a flash bang.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

You're still just reciting to me how Nolan wrote it. My response to that is always going to be: 'I don't find how Nolan wrote it to be a logical progression for this kind of character'.

But that's the point. Nolan had Batman quit and without being in the game, he became careless. It was a natural progression from TDK when he retired.

Well, it's the only reasonable suggestion of the moment's -defense- that's been provided. There's still the possibility that he was just being desperate and amateur. The movie doesn't specify between the two, and when you add into the equation that Nolan was portraying an arrogant, reckless Batman and Bane starts ridiculing him, it doesn't help Batman look much more clever.

The idea that Nolan made Bruce arrogant also kinda goes along with my suggestion as well of being off guard with Bane and trying to give him some time.

It doesn't necessarily mean that he's trying to regroup though.

I think it does and that's how I kept seeing it in that way ever since the first time I saw Batman vs Bane in the sewers.

I gotta say, I was hoping to see the Bat-shurikens appear again. Why did he even make them if he was only going to use them to cut out a few lights in one scene? :P

I would agree. The bat-shurikens or just simply batarangs were needed to be used again besides just seeing one tiny scene of them in the first film of the trilogy.

I just think it should have been a more effective smoke bomb he used.

Even that probably wouldn't matter to Bane, would it?

There was no substance to the pellets as a distraction in that circumstance, which should have been obvious to a seasoned Batman.

But it didn't look too obvious as a distraction either when Ra's showed it to Bruce, but it was something that the LoS could actually use.

[BlueLightning]

The scene in question:


To be honest, I have not seen a flash bang in real life. After watching some demostrations it wasn't hard to believe that what Batman used was a similar device with a little movie flavor. As how Bane was "impervious", well I didn't mean that it wouldn't have blinded him momentarily (from my understanding it's a matter of seconds). But Bane did see him in the darkness later, that's what I meant that it didn't matter if they blinded him or not.

So flash bang or not, as for the reasons, I think Anno got it more or less right so I wouldn't delve further.

[Anno_Domini]

And even with the "bangs" circling him...any normal thug would have easily been distracted, but we are talking about someone who was trained under the League of Shadows, an idea Bruce learned from the League of Shadows.

[the last son]

If it was a normal thug Batman would not be in that position. It's not which makes it even dumber. Batman laying flat on his back throws smoke at Bane that doesn't even blow up enough to even just blur his vision if anything. That was the worst weapon use I've ever seen Batman use.

[Anno_Domini]

The League of Shadows are known to use the worst weapons I guess then since Ra's showed Bruce powder to use where Bruce asked "As a distraction?".

It's a desperate moment for Batman where he tried this and then he turned off the lights.

You're right, to any thug, it would've helped, but Batman was closing out on options quickly.

[the last son]

How would this distract a member though? While Batman is laying flat out on his back?

[Anno_Domini]

Gonna have to ask a tired and beaten Batman that question, lol.

[Isearch4dope]

I think even a normal person not trained by the league would look at Batman with a WTF was that for look on their face after he threw that smoke pellet. My question is where the hell was the grapple gun or batarangs or other countless inventions that could have helped Batman take on a small ARMY other than waltzing in almost empty handed against machine gun wielding thugs? He could have easily been shot in the face. I felt like I was missing an entire movie between Knight and Rises because this Batman was just plain idiotic and don't tell me he had a death wish because I didn't see someone who wanted to die. **** just came from nowhere to advance the story and plot that I swore I didn't even recognize the characters on screen. What was it with Bruce acting all cocky with an injury and not studying Bane when he knew the league was back. No matter if he thought Bane was just a mercenary but it's the league nonetheless and he should have at least raised more of an eye brow and know they were formidable from past experiences. He was just totally out of character and Alfred started whining like a little ***** out of nowhere. I mean totally uncalled for it just pissed me off. He knew he couldn't stop Bruce so why not offer some way to help him like he always does. What happened to Neva!

In my view having a Bane who is impervious to pain take on a reckless injured out of the game batman wasn't interesting or impressive at all. Why didn't they spice up the obvious result by having Batman seemingly get Bane in trouble or at least figure out that his all out lethal effort (which should have taken down any normal man) wasn't doing a damn thing and change his tactics. I would have loved to see even a 10% smarter Batman who stood his ground and had a few tricks up his sleeve so that when he was defeated it would at least give us the impression that Bane really was a force to be reckoned with physically and mentally. Why not let Bane offer a little theatricality and deception by fooling Batman into thinking he was in pain and about to be beaten before he just unleashes on him. You know give him a little hope and toy with his head before terrorizing him with overwhelming odds. At no point in that fight did we even think for a second that Batman stood a chance. We all know he was supposed to lose but what happened to messing with our heads and going for something more or less obvious Mr. Nolan? Does anyone else realize that these fights contradict each other and are inconsistent? If Bane could punch through a pillar there is no way Batman could even take a punch from him to the face without sending him into a coma, breaking all his teeth or dismantling his jaw. With physicality having such a major role in the struggle between Batman and Bane it seemed like they didn't pay attention to things like these at all and just worried about grand scale execution which fell apart even worse.

[Isearch4dope]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

The scene in question:


To be honest, I have not seen a flash bang in real life. After watching some demostrations it wasn't hard to believe that what Batman used was a similar device with a little movie flavor. As how Bane was "impervious", well I didn't mean that it wouldn't have blinded him momentarily (from my understanding it's a matter of seconds). But Bane did see him in the darkness later, that's what I meant that it didn't matter if they blinded him or not.

So flash bang or not, as for the reasons, I think Anno got it more or less right so I wouldn't delve further.

Would have loved for them to use more shots like this in this fight and the movie on a whole. Something innovative you know to put it on another level because the plain boring camera angles and placements just felt lazy imo. I know they were dealing with IMAX beasts but they did something special here.

[Mace Dolex]

Originally Posted by RAINMAKER

Oh yeah, how does Bruce kick through bricks, but can't inflict any damage on Bane? Has anybody else noticed that inconstancy?

Thanks.

Maybe he had just forgotten to put the brace back on after doing the nasty with Miranda

[TheDreamMaster]

I think what bothers me about either fight is Batman uses very few gadgets. We get the light jamming devices early on, but the grapple gun gets no use, he uses the cape once when he falls, the shurikens never reappear save for the mini ones Bats uses to take out the guards on the ice. Sure we get the bat, but beyond that, we didn't get half of what Bruce had in the previous films.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by TheDreamMaster

I think what bothers me about either fight is Batman uses very few gadgets. We get the light jamming devices early on, but the grapple gun gets no use, he uses the cape once when he falls, the shurikens never reappear save for the mini ones Bats uses to take out the guards on the ice. Sure we get the bat, but beyond that, we didn't get half of what Bruce had in the previous films.

He didn't use the shurikens/batarangs in TDK either.

Batman Begins:
1.) Tumbler
2.) Batarangs/shurikens
3.) Grapple gun
4.) Scope
5.) Frequency sonar for the bats
6.) Mini-bombs(I guess that's what they would be called)

The Dark Knight:
1.) Tumbler
2.) Bat-pod
3.) Pneumatic mangler
4.) Explosive gel
5.) Grapple gun
6.) Bat-sonar

The Dark Knight Rises:
1.) Bat-pod
2.) The Bat
3.) EMT gun
4.) EMT device
5.) Flashbangs/stun pellets(whichever you prefer to call them)
6.) Batarang darts

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

The League of Shadows are known to use the worst weapons I guess then since Ra's showed Bruce powder to use where Bruce asked "As a distraction?".

It's a desperate moment for Batman where he tried this and then he turned off the lights.

You're right, to any thug, it would've helped, but Batman was closing out on options quickly.

I'm gonna let the other topic go, since it really boils down to whether or not you would have written it the same way Nolan did, and whether or not you think Nolan's idea makes sense for a character like Batman.

But as for this, I addressed it before: Batman KNEW Bane was a member of the League of Shadows, someone that Ra's trained directly, so what exactly was he logically hoping to accomplish with the pellets??

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

He didn't use the shurikens/batarangs in TDK either.

Batman Begins:
1.) Tumbler
2.) Batarangs/shurikens
3.) Grapple gun
4.) Scope
5.) Frequency sonar for the bats
6.) Mini-bombs(I guess that's what they would be called)

The Dark Knight:
1.) Tumbler
2.) Bat-pod
3.) Pneumatic mangler
4.) Explosive gel
5.) Grapple gun
6.) Bat-sonar

The Dark Knight Rises:
1.) Bat-pod
2.) The Bat
3.) EMT gun
4.) EMT device
5.) Flashbangs/stun pellets(whichever you prefer to call them)
6.) Batarang darts

One might consider the gauntlet-launched blades an upgrade to the shurikens. They even showed Bruce testing it out in a way very reflective of Begins, where he throws the shuriken and it sticks into the wall.

What is the 'Pneumatic mangler' again??

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

I'm gonna let the other topic go, since it really boils down to whether or not you would have written it the same way Nolan did, and whether or not you think Nolan's idea makes sense for a character like Batman.

But as for this, I addressed it before: Batman KNEW Bane was a member of the League of Shadows, someone that Ra's trained directly, so what exactly was he logically hoping to accomplish with the pellets??

He knew he was excommunicated. That could mean a lot of things. Perhaps he thought he didn't fully became a member, perhaps he knew that if Ra's cast Bane away maybe he didn't know all of their tricks. But more likely it was to gain the upper hand somehow, like buying himself some time.

Originally Posted by RustyCage

What is the 'Pneumatic mangler' again??

I think is the thing Batman uses to bend the rifle of one of the citizens for Batman.

[Anno_Domini]

Edit: Also forgot about the mini-bomb being used in TDKR as well AND the grapple gun could've been used during Batman's return as well when he pulled up that one hostage.

Originally Posted by RustyCage

I'm gonna let the other topic go, since it really boils down to whether or not you would have written it the same way Nolan did, and whether or not you think Nolan's idea makes sense for a character like Batman.

But as for this, I addressed it before: Batman KNEW Bane was a member of the League of Shadows, someone that Ra's trained directly, so what exactly was he logically hoping to accomplish with the pellets??

I don't think he was logically thinking at that moment of time at all tbh. I mean, even turning off the lights was a desperate act of a man when Ra's taught the League how to be "invisible" and the lights being off wouldn't have any effect on any member of the LoS.

Originally Posted by RustyCage

One might consider the gauntlet-launched blades an upgrade to the shurikens. They even showed Bruce testing it out in a way very reflective of Begins, where he throws the shuriken and it sticks into the wall.

Good point, although I didn't really want to add the gauntlets as something extra for Batman to use in TDK since the gauntlets played a big deal in all three films anyways.

What is the 'Pneumatic mangler' again??

What he used during the parking lot scene in TDK

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

[RAINMAKER]

Originally Posted by Isearch4dope

What happened to Neva!

That was the first thought that went through my mind during that scene.

Originally Posted by Isearch4dope

Why not let Bane offer a little theatricality and deception by fooling Batman into thinking he was in pain and about to be beaten before he just unleashes on him. You know give him a little hope and toy with his head before terrorizing him with overwhelming odds. At no point in that fight did we even think for a second that Batman stood a chance. We all know he was supposed to lose but what happened to messing with our heads and going for something more or less obvious Mr. Nolan?

As Batman fans, we knew when the gate closed, Batman was going to lose. But to the average fan, I don't think they knew Batman was going to lose that fight. I think Nolan tried to do what you suggested by having Batman throw in a lot of punches and look like he had the upper hand before Bane took him out, but it didn't fool Batman fans.

Originally Posted by Isearch4dope

Does anyone else realize that these fights contradict each other and are inconsistent? If Bane could punch through a pillar there is no way Batman could even take a punch from him to the face without sending him into a coma, breaking all his teeth or dismantling his jaw. With physicality having such a major role in the struggle between Batman and Bane it seemed like they didn't pay attention to things like these at all and just worried about grand scale execution which fell apart even worse.

This was my question in my original post. If Batman could kick through bricks, he could've kicked bane in the head, and Bane dies.

If Bane could punch through a pillar, he would've killed Batman with a couple head shots in the first fight.

All in all, it's just a movie. But like all movies, film makers will look back at their work and notice the same things we bring up.

Great post and points you brought up!

[Isearch4dope]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by RAINMAKER

That was the first thought that went through my mind during that scene.

As Batman fans, we knew when the gate closed, Batman was going to lose. But to the average fan, I don't think they knew Batman was going to lose that fight. I think Nolan tried to do what you suggested by having Batman throw in a lot of punches and look like he had the upper hand before Bane took him out, but it didn't fool Batman fans.

Yea you're right he did try to do it but from the moment the initial power shots didn't do squat to Bane after how easily he dismantled everyone else before I think even the average fan knew it was over. I was leaning more towards a scenario like Batman realizing Bane isn't normal and go for the mask ,fight smarter and keep his distance you know.

This was my question in my original post. If Batman could kick through bricks, he could've kicked bane in the head, and Bane dies.

If Bane could punch through a pillar, he would've killed Batman with a couple head shots in the first fight.

All in all, it's just a movie. But like all movies, film makers will look back at their work and notice the same things we bring up.

Exactly but these things are still haunting us because the movie itself wasn't up to par making everything wrong standout.