Stuff you like to believe happened in Nolan's series

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

I feel his quitting was multi-faceted, personally. It's not just one reason. There's obviously a lot of weight on his mind.

It's not just Rachel, it's not just his not being needed. It's both of those, and more. He became an outcast. He had to have felt horrible about Harvey. The Joker essentially won, and I'm sure that was eating up at him privately.

Agreed to a degree. The Joker didn't won, but that doesn't mean that the Batman triumphed either. The sacrifice Bruce made prevented the Joker from winning. People didn't lose hope, the criminals weren't set loose. He actually won. But Batman paid the price and had consequences.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

Agreed to a degree. The Joker didn't won, but that doesn't mean that the Batman triumphed either. The sacrifice Bruce made prevented the Joker from winning. People didn't lose hope, the criminals weren't set loose. He actually won. But Batman paid the price and had consequences.

He corrupted Harvey. The peace Batman and Gordon built was founded on a lie.

In that way, the Joker did win.

When Bruce is in the pit, he even has a nightmare of Ra's taunting him about that very thing. It's clearly been bothering him to hell.

[BlueLightning]

There are arguments from both sides of the story. I'm of the opinion that the Joker did not win. Batman didn't let him. One of the themes that the second film is putting on the table is that sometimes you have to lie. Keyword here being "sometimes". It's a theme that fits Batman's character as a glove. He does questionable things, but he restricts himself. He set's up his own rules. That's what makes him different. The lie that is made to preserve Harvey's image to the public isn't just a patch. It's a burden Batman sets onto himself, becoming the villain. But there is a side to everything. You can't lie forever. That's what Rises put's on the table. The Ra's hallucination plays on a genuine fear of Bruce, that his mission was pointless that he achieved nothing. But it is more complex than that.

The point the Joker makes is that everyone is a monster, point which is refuted by the people of Gotham, and ultimately by Batman himself. I love the ferries scene, because we have these two factions of people: the common Gothamite in one ferry, and the criminals on the other. Who are the first who reject the chance to blow the other ferry? The criminals. The big guy takes the detonator and throws it away, and his peers don't come up to him filled with anger, to to beat this guy who basically assured their death. No, they accept that is better this way. And on the other side, the common Gothamite, despite voting and agreeing that they will detonate the other boat, they don't. This is perhaps the greatest victory over the Joker on film.

But not everybody is that strong. There is also Harvey Dent.. This is a man who, unlike Gordon, doesn't question Batman's methods. He is eager to support Batman without hesitation. And this is before the Joker makes his move. We can see how he threatens Thomas Schiff. Ultimately, he fails to comprehend entirely what Batman tries to do. That prompts him to his downfall.

Ultimately, not everybody is a monster, there are good people who despite the odds do the good thing. The people Batman defends, and it is because of them that he takes the fall. The conflict of Batman's actions is somewhat literalized with the machine that Batman gives Lucius to make surveillance on Gotham. At the end the machine is destroyed. Batman takes the burden of not only his actions, but more. That's why I think that Batman, despite his apparent downfall, is the one who prevails.

[BatLobsterRises]

I think Batman's ideals ultimately prevailed in TDK, but at the cost of Bruce Wayne's soul- which ends up getting left to rot. Which doesn't happen immediately, it's a gradual process (the energy project, etc.).

I think it's interesting how it can be argued both ways who actually "won" in TDK though.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

I feel his quitting was multi-faceted, personally. It's not just one reason. There's obviously a lot of weight on his mind.

It's not just Rachel, it's not just his not being needed. It's both of those, and more. He became an outcast. He had to have felt horrible about Harvey. The Joker essentially won, and I'm sure that was eating up at him privately.

I always felt the main issue was the Batman wasn't needed anymore, period. But for Bruce Wayne personally? He never moved on with anything in his life because of Rachel and his life was all about an energy project that he mothballed in the end and then went into exile. It only got worse for Bruce Wayne throughout the years after TDK.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

There are arguments from both sides of the story. I'm of the opinion that the Joker did not win. Batman didn't let him.

Publicly, in appearance only? Batman more or less got his way.

But privately, in truth? The Joker forced Batman to lie to create peace, so ultimately the public ideal, the 'win' as perceived by the citizens, was flimsy and fake. It wasn't really a win, it was an illusion masquerading as a win.

Bruce had to acknowledge this. Perhaps more importantly, this also demonstrates that Bruce doesn't trust the people of Gotham with the truth. He doesn't have the same faith in them to carry on being good like they did on the ferries.

Personally, I think all of the weight from all these different angles adds a lot of much needed strength to Bruce's retiring (referencing "Never again." from TDK Returns and Batman Beyond), and ultimately makes his redemption when he goes out of retirement/exile to set things straight, and when he climbs up from the pit, much more beautiful and meaningful.

[BlueLightning]

Yes I agree with that. Its one way to see it, but what I tend to focus is in the citizens. If Harvey's truth was revealed at that time, a truly terrible time with all of the Jokers actions upon the city, people would be disheartened, and all of Harvey good deeds would go to point zero. In creating the lie, Batman invalidated all of this. People would be safe. "The Joker cannot win" He was in the position of doing this "He can make the choice no one else can face".

He had to trust the people of Gotham in the ferries. But after everything they went through, he could spare them one more grief. One that could potentially put them again in danger, with all the criminals again on the streets.

It was a sacrifice, meaning that he had to suffer for it. That is a very noble thing to do, but not necessarily something pleasant. In Rises I don't think he cares that the people still hate him, if they do. He does the right thing not because he is redeeming himself, but because it is the right thing to do. Climbing the pit is a very powerful thing, he is willing to give life another chance, he learns that he can overcome pain. And in the end it all comes as it should. I can only imagine the people of Gotham after learning the truth of Batman, that of a man that was willing to put himself in the worst position in order to protect them. They understood the why of the lie. So there is now a statue of Batman in the city, honoring this man who gave everything for them.

At least that's my point of view.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by BlueLightning

Yes I agree with that. Its one way to see it, but what I tend to focus is in the citizens. If Harvey's truth was revealed at that time, a truly terrible time with all of the Jokers actions upon the city, people would be disheartened, and all of Harvey good deeds would go to point zero. In creating the lie, Batman invalidated all of this. People would be safe. "The Joker cannot win" He was in the position of doing this "He can make the choice no one else can face".

He had to trust the people of Gotham in the ferries. But after everything they went through, he could spare them one more grief. One that could potentially put them again in danger, with all the criminals again on the streets.

It was a sacrifice, meaning that he had to suffer for it. That is a very noble thing to do, but not necessarily something pleasant. In Rises I don't think he cares that the people still hate him, if they do. He does the right thing not because he is redeeming himself, but because it is the right thing to do. Climbing the pit is a very powerful thing, he is willing to give life another chance, he learns that he can overcome pain. And in the end it all comes as it should. I can only imagine the people of Gotham after learning the truth of Batman, that of a man that was willing to put himself in the worst position in order to protect them. They understood the why of the lie. So there is now a statue of Batman in the city, honoring this man who gave everything for them.

At least that's my point of view.

That's a great way to look at it

[Anno_Domini]

Know something else I'd like to believe in Nolan's series?

When Batman saves Gordon and his men in TDKR, he didn't ask Gordon where Miranda Tate was. I gotta say, no matter how much I love TDKR, that is the most cringeworthy line out of the entire trilogy as it makes no sense except to just push the third act by telling us that this war will be infront of City Hall and making Miranda seem more important that what she should be before the Talia reveal and Bruce knows EXACTLY where she is even. The scene should've cut to Bane telling his men to keep "her" close and then Batman handing Gordon the EMP box without even asking where Miranda is.

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

He corrupted Harvey. The peace Batman and Gordon built was founded on a lie.

In that way, the Joker did win.

When Bruce is in the pit, he even has a nightmare of Ra's taunting him about that very thing. It's clearly been bothering him to hell.

Not only did he corrupt Harvey, but he corrupted Gordon and Batman into lying to their city which resulted in borderline police state like legislation. He made them revert on their original goal of inspiring hope in the justice system by shoving the problems of corruption in Gotham under the rug. The Joker won in a way he probably didn't even anticipate, and it's the journey of TDKR where they face the repercussions of this, both physically and mentally.

[TheBat812]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Know something else I'd like to believe in Nolan's series?

When Batman saves Gordon and his men in TDKR, he didn't ask Gordon where Miranda Tate was. I gotta say, no matter how much I love TDKR, that is the most cringeworthy line out of the entire trilogy as it makes no sense except to just push the third act by telling us that this war will be infront of City Hall and making Miranda seem more important that what she should be before the Talia reveal and Bruce knows EXACTLY where she is even. The scene should've cut to Bane telling his men to keep "her" close and then Batman handing Gordon the EMP box without even asking where Miranda is.

I think that line is crucial to Bruce, because at this point, he's finally realized that he needs something to root for beyond his duties as Batman, and Miranda has become that for him at this point. It makes her betrayal much more powerful to know that a life beyond batman has finally equalled his passion for inspiring hope and doling out justice. Unfortunately he was looking to the wrong lady, haha.

[Anno_Domini]

Even that kind of reasoning doesn't make up for Batman asking Gordon the whereabouts of a woman that he just saw already. It all just felt like the worst form of exposition dialogue from Nolan.

[BatLobsterRises]

I think the point of him asking was that logically she should have been sentenced and walking the ice along with Gordon and his men. They were all captured at the same time, yet Bane kept her aside. I think his hope was that they'd all be walking the ice and he would've saved Tate along with Gordon and the cops, but that doesn't pan out so he inquires about her whereabouts.

To me the most awkward exposition in the trilogy is when Batman and Gordon explain blow for blow what is happening in the Narrows during the climax of BB.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I think the point of him asking was that logically she should have been sentenced and walking the ice along with Gordon and his men. They were all captured at the same time, yet Bane kept her aside. I think his hope was that they'd all be walking the ice and he would've saved Tate along with Gordon and the cops, but that doesn't pan out so he inquires about her whereabouts.

Logically, this doesn't even make sense since Batman had really no knowledge of Gordon, his men and Miranda being arrested earlier that day or that Miranda would be in the ice when he just saw her beforehand.

To me the most awkward exposition in the trilogy is when Batman and Gordon explain blow for blow what is happening in the Narrows during the climax of BB.

I never did mind that dialogue at all, but if we're speaking on BB...that old guy in Wayne Tower who kept saying everything's going to blow, lol.

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

I never did mind that dialogue at all, but if we're speaking on BB...that old guy in Wayne Tower who kept saying everything's going to blow, lol.

The man is awesome!

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Logically, this doesn't even make sense since Batman had really no knowledge of Gordon, his men and Miranda being arrested earlier that day or that Miranda would be in the ice when he just saw her beforehand.

If he hadn't found out that Gordon and his men were captured and were being sentenced, why was he coming to their rescue on the ice then? I always figured Selina clued him in on what was going on, since she's able to play both sides like that and get the inside scoop.

[Anno_Domini]

Just all sounds like a leap of faith honest and I still haven't gotten a real reason as to why Batman asked where Miranda was except for making himself sound clueless when the question didn't need to be asked when Bruce knows exactly where Miranda is.

[kvz5]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Know something else I'd like to believe in Nolan's series?

When Batman saves Gordon and his men in TDKR, he didn't ask Gordon where Miranda Tate was. I gotta say, no matter how much I love TDKR, that is the most cringeworthy line out of the entire trilogy as it makes no sense except to just push the third act by telling us that this war will be infront of City Hall and making Miranda seem more important that what she should be before the Talia reveal and Bruce knows EXACTLY where she is even. The scene should've cut to Bane telling his men to keep "her" close and then Batman handing Gordon the EMP box without even asking where Miranda is.

I always assumed that was a (stupid) editing mistake because it made zero sense. I think the sequence of events were different in the script?

[BatLobsterRises]

^ I don't see how that can be the case, since in the prior scene Bruce is telling Lucius he needs him to get him back in the game, and the ice scene is his first scene back in the Bat-suit. Haven't double checked the script though. I know the order of something got changed.

[Rorschach2012]

I like to think Talia was pregnant with Damian and was resurrected in the Lazarus Pit by Ra's who was also resurrected. I also like to think Blake didnt become Batman but Nightwing

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by kvz5

I always assumed that was a (stupid) editing mistake because it made zero sense. I think the sequence of events were different in the script?

It starts with Gordon, his men and Miranda being caught, Miranda being with Fox when the thugs bring Bruce, then Fox and Bruce making their way in the Bat-bunker, then the sentencing for Gordon, his men and Miranda, Bruce and Fox by The Bat and then Batman saving Gordon and his men where he then asks where Miranda is but even THAT doesn't make sense when nothing is even alluded in the script of Miranda having been with Gordon and his men.

So the edit in the film fits more aligned with the film itself, but that single line itself of Batman asking where Miranda is...it just wasn't needed.

[kvz5]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

It starts with Gordon, his men and Miranda being caught, Miranda being with Fox when the thugs bring Bruce, then Fox and Bruce making their way in the Bat-bunker, then the sentencing for Gordon, his men and Miranda, Bruce and Fox by The Bat and then Batman saving Gordon and his men where he then asks where Miranda is but even THAT doesn't make sense when nothing is even alluded in the script of Miranda having been with Gordon and his men.

So the edit in the film fits more aligned with the film itself, but that single line itself of Batman asking where Miranda is...it just wasn't needed.

Ah, I see. Yeah, that line was just weird but I suppose it's just another attempt to stress to the audience just how important Miranda is to Bruce (I never felt that way but that's a different discussion altogether lol) along with Selina's "you'll wage a war for your stuck-up girlfriend" and Bruce's "I'll never forget you" line to Miranda to make her betrayal ~shocking~.

[Anno_Domini]

That's the way I see it; just a piece of dialogue to beat over the viewer's head that Miranda is important to Bruce. Now while I didn't mind Selina's dig or Bruce telling Miranda "I'll never forget you"(maybe she was stellar in the sack), that one line of Batman asking Gordon...it just irks me everytime I watch TDKR, lol.

The ONLY thing I can think of is Batman asked that because he wants to seem like he knows that Miranda Tate is the CEO of Wayne Enterprises and only she can stop the bomb.

[JDonaldD]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

I think Batman's ideals ultimately prevailed in TDK, but at the cost of Bruce Wayne's soul- which ends up getting left to rot. Which doesn't happen immediately, it's a gradual process (the energy project, etc.).

I think it's interesting how it can be argued both ways who actually "won" in TDK though.

I recently re-watched TDK again and there are more allusions to what happens to Batman in TDKR than I thought, specifically Joker's claim that Batman will be cast out when he's not needed anymore. You could argue that Bruce comes to believe this along with Harvey's "live long enough to see yourself become the villain" line and takes the opportunity to cast himself out on his own means.

I would argue that Joker wins by the end of TDK. Joker remarks that Batman is truly incorruptible in their last meeting but I would argue because of what happened to Dent, Joker had a hand in forcing Batman to corrupt the Batman symbol. Although their intentions are good, Batman and Gordon become corrupt, which is tragic because corruption is what they were trying to fight.

It's a really compelling ending but in all seriousness, I think it would be easy to spin Dent's story to the public as a victim of the Joker, which is how we see it as audience members.

[BlueLightning]

Originally Posted by JDonaldD

It's a really compelling ending but in all seriousness, I think it would be easy to spin Dent's story to the public as a victim of the Joker, which is how we see it as audience members.

It is not only that. Sure it could be easy to say that he was a victim of the Joker, because he really was a victim. But you have to take into account that all the mob would be again free to roam the streets, at least they would have the means to hold a grip into Gotham again, and bringing the hope of the citizens to the ground.

The thing is, I don't think Gordon and Batman became corrupted by the lie. Why? Because Batman took the fall. Instead of being something morally dubious, it becomes a sacrifice. As Gordon says at the end, he can take it, he is not a hero. He is something more. Whatever Gotham needs him to be. By definition a sacrifice is an offering, and that's what Bruce did. And ultimately, and perhaps paradoxically, that's something worthy of heroism.