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Old 02-06-2013, 07:43 AM   #26
TheDreamMaster
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Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

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@Spider-Who =

In all honesty - I figured not being a fan meant I had no bias in which part in the fanbase I'd cover more or less. Not being a fan or not having seen the films allowed me to be more objective to the fanbase's viewpoints and behavior.
I don't have too much more to add since the others have said a lot, but I'm surprised you aren't a little more familiar with a fan base like this since you mentioned getting back into Indy in '08. KOTCS is probably right up there with the prequels, and maybe Superman Returns, for films that were anticipated but ended up hated. And by hated, I mean that it, like the prequels, was a successful film, but there was of course four different sides to that. There was of course, the two sides to the general audience, both likely only vocal to their friends on if they liked it or not. Then came the normal fanbase, whom had the vocal ones defending it, but as always, the ones who hated it came out as the loudest, and once again Lucas was in the spotlight as a hack who can't pull of good cinema anymore (because, y aknow, Speilberg still gets a pass. :eyeroll Hell, I have probably heard an equal amount of whining on that one movie alone and how it ruined Indy and killed childhoods, etc as I did any one of the prequels.

I do think though, in regards to the prequels, there was alot of people who saw one of them, mostly TPM of course, and after that wouldn't ever actually let themselves enjoy the other films upon release. I've ehard some opinions change, I've heard some get worse.

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Old 02-06-2013, 08:29 AM   #27
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...but I'm surprised you aren't a little more familiar with a fan base like this since you mentioned getting back into Indy in '08. KOTCS is probably right up there with the prequels, and maybe Superman Returns, for films that were anticipated but ended up hated.
You've mentioned Indy - now get ready for a long winded post from me. (Disclaimer - I'm not a huge die hard of Indy, I don't have any merchandise and only watch any of these films maybe once a year if that, so even though I may come across as being a devoted fan, I'm just a casual with alot to say regarding the topic since I read alot about the films in 2008.)

I didn't care for KOTCS - but then again I'm not a Temple of Doom fan either.

The Indiana Jones Fan-Base is a fraction of the size and scale compared to Star Wars or even Superman - and alot smaller on the intensity.

As far as KOTCS goes, it is nowhere near the infamy of the Prequels or on the hate-scale. KOTCS was a smash though - becoming the biggest film of 2008 box office wise on the globe (TDK took the US) - and I remember people on the net generally liking it despite not being worth a 20 year wait (and most people I knew) other than a few hyperbolic complainers on the net until about October of that year - and when South Park parodied the film and the reactions of some fans - that's when the hate took over the internet. I saw it 3 times just to see if I could like it (I did not) and each time the audience applauded at the end each time and had a great time and DVDs sold like crazy.

When you hear about Lucas-hate, you never really hear anyone mention KOTCS. It's always about the Prequels, Howard the Duck or what have you being the reason he is 'terrible' now. While this doesn't mean they really liked the film, it simply indicates the lesser degree of disliking, if any.

Infamy on some internet comment circles doesn't indicate a hated film by a fanbase or general population, I say.

I'd say those that speak loudest in the Indy fanbase argue whether Temple of Doom or Kingdom of the Crystal Skull were any good - but again, that doesn't speak for a majority. Statistically, KOTCS was the most positively received Indy film at the time of its release (Last Crusade got mixed reviews upon release in 1989, and Temple of Doom got alot of backlash for being a poor follow up to Raiders and for its racism in 1984).

Kingdom fared tenfold better with critics and audiences than the Prequel Trilogy. Putting how I feel aside about the film...I see a few make the mistake on insinuating that people don't like it or that it fared poorly.

Indy IV -

-RottenTomatoes - 78%/User Score of 3.6
-7.0 IMDB
-MovieWeb Fan/Critic Accumulated - 82% and a 3.8 "Great" score.
-CinemaScore= B+
-MetaCritic Score - 65
-4/5 NetFlix score
-AICN - Great reviews, Harry's was particularly glowing.
-Yahoo! Movies User Score - 4/5 Stars/B+
-BoxOfficeMojo Surveys - 41% gave it an A, 37%; B.
-MovieFone - 3/5 Critics/Audiences
-Empire Magazine's Top 500 Films of All Time
-MovieWeb - 83% Critic(284 reviews) - 3.8 User (Great)
-SlashFilmSurvey - 54,356 polled, 83% voted 'loved it'
-Featured in 4 Top Critics' Best of 2008
-#7 Best Selling DVD In America - 2008.
-Indiana Jones FanForum (TheRaven.net) Poll 2008 - 1,367 Users Poll - 85% Rated 7 or Higher


I'd say the jury is in on that film. I'm not in agreement with it, but the jury's been in for 5 years (jeez, has 2008 been that long? ).

The internet commenting community has a tendency to make a film look like it's actively despised through comment sections being taken over by those that dislike it (The Dark Knight Rises is having a bout of this with negative internet buzz about it being a blah film, and it reminded me of late 2008 against KOTCS). But we have to realize...those that bicker and complain in comments sections are such a small micro-fraction of a minority. They truly are. I mean, I'm being told lately by people online that The Dark Knight Rises was vastly disliked by fans/general film-goers as a whole - they're trying to hijack reality since they disliked it.

But if you stay on the Indy forums, Facebook, YouTube and the like - you don't see all that much hatred for KOTCS or really much of anything and when you do, it's down-voted by the people who are sick of hearing about it from the same people.

Me? I choose not to talk about the film unless someone asks me about it. I don't want to waste time complaining about something I didn't care for. Same with Temple of Doom.

I did go to the AMC Indiana Jones Marathon in September 2012 - and so did a few I know in other states and I saw a few on the net say that "Everyone will leave after Last Crusade!!!!" - and lo and behold...nobody in my theater left nor did anyone else in any other state that I read about reported such a thing happening. Packed houses of 200+ people and the reports came in that attendence was full through all the films and that Last Crusade/Kingdom of the Crystal Skull got the best audience reception. Raiders of the Lost Ark (surprisingly...) got the least of applause. The guys who hate KOTCS were shocked that people had a great time with all the films because they forget that the whiners of the internet aren't even a fraction of the general film-going audience who watch these films.

Another instance was on a drive to where I was moving to, I stopped by the Nat. Geo. Indiana Jones Exhibit in Los Angeles, as well. It was right off the exit so I figured "Why not?" I was stopping for the night anyway. And all four films had a huge exhibit, and KOTCS had the largest and not surprisingly...no KOTCS haters to be found. Just a ton of people and die hard fans having a great time and gushing over the set-use props and film memorabilia.

And believe it or not...the Crystal Skeleton on the Throne from KOTCS was the most popular part of the exhibit. Everyone got a photo of that thing. Even I admit that thing was very impressive in person.

I don't think the fanbase of Indy is nearly as divided as Star Wars fans are. KOTCS didn't do much damage to us, if any. We're generally less invested mainly because Indy is a different entity - not nearly as large as Star Wars.

I'm trying to like that film so I'm not a Debbie Downer, but oh well!


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Old 02-06-2013, 09:17 AM   #28
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Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

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<rant>
Fair enough, and maybe its that I'm mroe involved in Star Wars. But, from personal experience, I can't help but ever hear hate for KOTCS. Go hunt down the old Indy IV thread here, you might see what I mean. That said, I like dKOTCS, and most of my friends did too. In fact, the friends of mine that hate the Prequels enjoyed KOTCS. But in several internet circles, I happen to have seen a large amount of hate, and most of it can be summed up in one word: Aliens.

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Old 02-06-2013, 09:21 AM   #29
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Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

As someone that did not like the PT, I will say that I thought Indy 4 was decent. Not as bad as the PT but no where near the greatness of the original three Indy films. I would say the Indy 4 hate is not near as strong as that for the PT. And to me again the PT was just poorer film-making all around where as with Indy 4 it just had some weak areas. And some laughable scenes.

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Old 02-06-2013, 09:48 AM   #30
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Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

I think we both may not see the other fanbase as clearly since we both know more about our respective fanbases due to spending more time in them.


I know many who hate the PT but loved KOTCS and many said that it was at least in the same spirit/feel as the previous films whereas the PT was so different from the OT. I can't comment on how the PT feels in respect to the OT, but I do feel that KOTCS was spot on in terms of feel and was a hybrid of all three previous films. Whether that was a good thing for my viewing pleasure is dependent to what day of the week you ask me.

I plan on watching the entire Star Wars saga soon and I wonder how much closer in tone/style KOTCS was in regards to the first three films as opposed to TPM in regards to the OT.

Over the years I find myself warming up to TOD/KOTCS a bit. I mostly prefer the other two because of their less pulp feel - and I don't consider the others to be bad films, just not as much my style.

And I do remember the threads here (I was a lurker at times) and it was mixed to negative here at best. But that just means that the consensus on this forum was that way.

KOTCS got pretty damn good reviews for the odds against it and introduced a new generation to Indy - I'm happy for that at least.

If anything, the errors of PT can spawn a 180 for the Star Wars franchise and deliver you guys a great third trilogy - there still is some good to come of the PT hopefully (for those that don't care for it).


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Old 02-06-2013, 11:00 AM   #31
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Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

1.) I fear that the new saga will open up old wounds for angry/bittered fans who have been complaining since 1999 and will only add fuel to their fire - and if I derive any enjoyment from Episode VII - I'm going to have to hear about how much of an idiot other fans think I am.

Angry/bitter fans may have been complaining since 1997 or whenever Greedo shot first.

2.) They will be great films - but the fanbase will still reject them as they are not the original three.

These films could be the 2nd coming of Jesus, but some will complain. seeing Star Wars at age 40 is different than having it change your life at age 10. That is what a MAJORITY of the haters sort of ignore.

And my biggest questions to you guys -

*What is wrong with the fanbase/why do they act this way for so many years?*

Again, you only get one first time, one childhood, etc. Bitter Star Wars fans seem to think that Lucas should have adjusted the tone/story/feel of the films to look like their childhood, but update it to their adult sensibilities. How dare he make a film for the 10 year olds of 1999?

What do the majority of the fans think of the Disney deal? Lucas retiring? Are the fans really as divided/angry as I perceive them to be or is it a vocal minority? Do most fans really loathe the Prequels?

As a hardcore Star Wars fan, I am more than cool with the Disney deal. Claims of "selling out" are stupid. George's career mirrors Walt Disney's in many ways. Lucasfilm was never a traditional indie film company. It has been SUPER commercial since 1977. Lucas invented modern day movie merchandising and hype.

In general, Star Wars fans are Star Wars fans. I think there are preferences along generational lines. Mostly there is a VOCAL and cynical minority on the internet. I like the prequels a lot. Star Wars for a new generation. Revenge of the Sith is easily one of the best movies of the saga. 2nd only to Empire Strikes Back, in my eyes.

I've put this in the "Episode VII" forum because I mainly do want to know how most fans feel about the film - what is the general consensus on the idea of "New Star Wars"?

Love the idea. Star Wars doesn't belong to children of the 80's. It is an incredibly large and fun universe and I am excited for all of the big screen stories that will be told.

I'm just curious since I'm not a fan and haven't had the time to get the general pulse on the fanbase regarding Episode VII, thanks for any answers ahead of time.


Any Star Wars fans that loathes the prequels or isn't excited about the new films needs and asterisk on their Star Wars fanclub membership card.

Keep in mind - any misjudgments or any notion about the fanbase I've said is not intentional - I'm just stating how it looks looking in. Don't take offense.

Fans of anything music/sports/arts/films all have their share of extremists. The internet brings them out.

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Old 02-06-2013, 11:11 AM   #32
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Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

I really do appreciate the level headed feedback in this thread. Well articulated as I expected.

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Old 02-06-2013, 11:48 AM   #33
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Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

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1.) I fear that the new saga will open up old wounds for angry/bittered fans who have been complaining since 1999 and will only add fuel to their fire - and if I derive any enjoyment from Episode VII - I'm going to have to hear about how much of an idiot other fans think I am.

Angry/bitter fans may have been complaining since 1997 or whenever Greedo shot first.

2.) They will be great films - but the fanbase will still reject them as they are not the original three.

These films could be the 2nd coming of Jesus, but some will complain. seeing Star Wars at age 40 is different than having it change your life at age 10. That is what a MAJORITY of the haters sort of ignore.

And my biggest questions to you guys -

*What is wrong with the fanbase/why do they act this way for so many years?*

Again, you only get one first time, one childhood, etc. Bitter Star Wars fans seem to think that Lucas should have adjusted the tone/story/feel of the films to look like their childhood, but update it to their adult sensibilities. How dare he make a film for the 10 year olds of 1999?

What do the majority of the fans think of the Disney deal? Lucas retiring? Are the fans really as divided/angry as I perceive them to be or is it a vocal minority? Do most fans really loathe the Prequels?

As a hardcore Star Wars fan, I am more than cool with the Disney deal. Claims of "selling out" are stupid. George's career mirrors Walt Disney's in many ways. Lucasfilm was never a traditional indie film company. It has been SUPER commercial since 1977. Lucas invented modern day movie merchandising and hype.

In general, Star Wars fans are Star Wars fans. I think there are preferences along generational lines. Mostly there is a VOCAL and cynical minority on the internet. I like the prequels a lot. Star Wars for a new generation. Revenge of the Sith is easily one of the best movies of the saga. 2nd only to Empire Strikes Back, in my eyes.

I've put this in the "Episode VII" forum because I mainly do want to know how most fans feel about the film - what is the general consensus on the idea of "New Star Wars"?

Love the idea. Star Wars doesn't belong to children of the 80's. It is an incredibly large and fun universe and I am excited for all of the big screen stories that will be told.

I'm just curious since I'm not a fan and haven't had the time to get the general pulse on the fanbase regarding Episode VII, thanks for any answers ahead of time.


Any Star Wars fans that loathes the prequels or isn't excited about the new films needs and asterisk on their Star Wars fanclub membership card.

Keep in mind - any misjudgments or any notion about the fanbase I've said is not intentional - I'm just stating how it looks looking in. Don't take offense.

Fans of anything music/sports/arts/films all have their share of extremists. The internet brings them out.
Sorry so much of that is wrong. This argument is the weakest of PT defenders out there.

"Oh it's nostalgic, or they like it because they saw it when they were kids."Bull. Just pure bull.

There are millions of shows, tv shows, movies, games ect that I loved as a kid, and was obsessed with, but when I went back and saw them later, they had not aged, and I realized they were made for kids. However with Star Wars (the OT) that was never the case, actually now almost 29 I've become even more infatuated with the OT, and learned to appreciate it even more. So no it's not because we saw it as kids.

The second thing is the PT was all over the place. In the OT Star Wars was never made just for kids. That is a fallacy. You had tons of gruesome deaths, monsters with blood dripping down, you had the Wampa beasts, you had the Rancor's, you had flesh charred skeletons of Owen and Beru. Again Star Wars was for everyone, and it made kids feel like adults and adults feel like kids. That's what made the movies work, it brought everyone to a single point. The PT just tried to aim purely towards kids. Then all of a sudden he goes super dark with Episode III and almost near rated R. Killing kids, and burning the flesh off of someone. To me it was all over the place. It went from being kid like then when Lucas got guff for it being to soft he went to another extreme.

You don't have a 10 year old Anakin or a 10 year old Boba Fett to be like...."Hey kids you like this right?" No. Kids hate being kids, they want to be adults, we all remember that, then of course the second you become an adult it turns around the other way. Most kids want to be adults, there is no rules, they can go to bed when they want to no one can tell them what to do ect. For 30 years kids wanted to be Luke Skywalker, Han Solo, run off have an adventure and kiss the girl, because adults have freedom. Kids don't. Even in Episode I Anakin is being bossed around and really does nothing. Kids don't want to be Shortround they want to be Indy himself. It's fantasy that children want to be the big hero adult. Most heroes are adults, and its because kids want to be them.

To just point fingers at people like us that hate the PT and say "Oh you just hate it.....because." Is just not true at all. I actually had some liking of them at first, but then as I looked at them more closely they were just poorer made films. You don't see many awards or film classes talking about the PT. Most screen writing classes use (if they do use Star Wars) OT for example of good film making...not the PT.

I have no problem with those that like the PT, more power to you. However, I don't like it when PT people act like we've betrayed something.

Again most people you talk to now don't seem to care as much for the PT. Even most PT fans at least admit the OT is still the superior one, very few put it in as high as regards as you. Again it has nothing to do with generational gaps or any crap like that. I was raised on Burton's Batman....but Nolan's is one million times better. You assume that people don't like "new" no we do like new. But we don't like poor film making, which the PT was to a lot of people. RLM and many other fans over the years have pointed this out. Whereas PT defenders seem to just run towards personal attacks because the PT can't stand on it's own merits.

There will always be some that hate something. But don't act as if the PT hatred is some small faction, that is why this guy is interested in it because of that fact.

And that is why Kathy and all the others with making the new trilogy keep saying they are making it like the OT. It's a nice way of saying....we want to keep in line with the high quality that the OT presented.

Again fine that people like the PT, but I don't like that they turn to us and say we are not real fans, we are just big cry babies ect. Most on these forums know I'm a very optimistic guy, and always give anything a chance, I did with the PT and did not like them. As did many others. The PT is one of the few big nerd like things I really did not like.

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Old 02-06-2013, 12:06 PM   #34
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You make a good argument, Solidus.

Though - with certain fans I think it's hard to argue that there isn't some amount, no matter how little, of nostalgia working against them/the films. It's natural that it happens.

Nostalgia for older Aerosmith or older KISS albums can sometimes make it harder for me to be accepting of a new album, for example. I've caught myself doing it.

I also would assert that alot of fans (not just SW fans, but fans in general)...when there is a long awaited film - they often times don't watch the film as much as they look for signs that the film isn't good. Little warning flags that tell them "Oh no! This may suck!" because they're so afraid that it isn't/won't live up to expectations.

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Old 02-06-2013, 12:17 PM   #35
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You make a good argument, Solidus.

Though - with certain fans I think it's hard to argue that there isn't some amount, no matter how little, of nostalgia working against them/the films. It's natural that it happens.

Nostalgia for older Aerosmith or older KISS albums can sometimes make it harder for me to be accepting of a new album, for example. I've caught myself doing it.

I also would assert that alot of fans (not just SW fans, but fans in general)...when there is a long awaited film - they often times don't watch the film as much as they look for signs that the film isn't good. Little warning flags that tell them "Oh no! This may suck!" because they're so afraid that it isn't/won't live up to expectations.
Agree with all of this. However, with me, and I am known for this in these fourms, I'm always open to new things. And then I judge them accordingly. I was beyond hyped for things like Episode I, and II, Spiderman 3, TDKR, and they let me down in some senses, because I judged them for what they were, and did not want to like it because I had gotten hyped for it. I try to be as neutral as I can.

I'm excited for the new Robocop reboot, many are not, I'm a massive fan of the original, but as excited for the new take. However when it comes to the time seeing the film, if it sucks, it sucks. If it does not it does not. I guess when it comes time to the film I'm able to just disconnect and watch it for what it is. Not what I wanted it to be.

But nostalgic moments for me are not as pulling. There are so many things I have nostalgia for, and I just don't care for as I got older or whatever. But it may have small moments for everyone, but that would even include the PT as well.

But good points.

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Old 02-06-2013, 12:25 PM   #36
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Agree with all of this. However, with me, and I am known for this in these fourms, I'm always open to new things. And then I judge them accordingly. I was beyond hyped for things like Episode I, and II, Spiderman 3, TDKR, and they let me down in some senses, because I judged them for what they were, and did not want to like it because I had gotten hyped for it. I try to be as neutral as I can.

I'm excited for the new Robocop reboot, many are not, I'm a massive fan of the original, but as excited for the new take. However when it comes to the time seeing the film, if it sucks, it sucks. If it does not it does not. I guess when it comes time to the film I'm able to just disconnect and watch it for what it is. Not what I wanted it to be.

But nostalgic moments for me are not as pulling. There are so many things I have nostalgia for, and I just don't care for as I got older or whatever. But it may have small moments for everyone, but that would even include the PT as well.

But good points.
I never doubted your open-mindedness and objectivity. I can concur with your assertions.

And since you mentioned it, I'm curious about the Robocop reboot. Not excited per-se, but hopefully curious.

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Old 02-06-2013, 12:36 PM   #37
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The other thing that not many mention that I figured I would is that after 1999 and some of the early PT stuff a lot of fans just kinda left the Star Wars fandom behind them. I had lots of personal friends that did that, and lots of online friends mainly at TFN that did that as well. Some of them just kinda did not want to argue it but were really disappointed. Funny thing is some of them are coming back, and getting into Star Wars again because of this announcement of directors/writers.

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Old 02-06-2013, 01:35 PM   #38
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Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

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Again, you only get one first time, one childhood, etc. Bitter Star Wars fans seem to think that Lucas should have adjusted the tone/story/feel of the films to look like their childhood, but update it to their adult sensibilities. How dare he make a film for the 10 year olds of 1999?
I grew up with all 6 films. I'm pretty sure I was Phantom Menace before I finished watching Return of the Jedi even. I loved the prequels, I read every issue of Star Wars insider, I recorded all the previews, and I bought all the stupid toys. However the only Star Wars movies I still enjoy as an adult are the original 3 because they just have a deeper, more thought out story. The prequels on the other hand are basically like giant toy commercials.

In high school my friends used to make fun of me all the time for liking Star Wars. I'd tell them to watch it and they'd love it and they all said "no I saw the first one with the red guy and I didn't like it". Then after we got to senior year and learned about Joseph Campbell and watched A New Hope in class, almost all of them took that back.

See the whole "they didn't change, you did" argument only goes so far. There are plenty of kids movies that adults can enjoy as well, maybe even appreciate in a different way than the children do (Pixar films, many pre Nolan Superhero films, etc). The Star Wars prequels just fail at this and only aim to please the ten year olds and no one else. So no, thats not how adults felt.

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Old 02-06-2013, 01:40 PM   #39
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Since I haven't noticed it in the comments so far, I'd also like to throw in age as a factor. I was born in '89, so until about '97 I thought Star Wars was done. I loved it, I ate up the merchandise, but I never thought it would continue. So in '99 I was 10, and Anakin was 10, and it clicked. And amidst all the hate, I loved Episode I. I saw the SE Trilogy in theaters, so it wasn't my first SW film in theaters, but it was new and it was amazing.
Maybe it was growing up with these that left a good impression and made me enjoy them so much. At my age now, I can see the faults, and Episode II is probably my least favorite SW film, but I will defend them forever.
That said, Episode VII is that feeling from '99 all over again, but rather than that feeling of excitement that I could relate, it's the excitement over the uncertainty. We knew who Anakin would become, this is all new. We know nothing about this. And to me, that's awesome!

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Old 02-06-2013, 03:13 PM   #40
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Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

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Sorry so much of that is wrong. This argument is the weakest of PT defenders out there.
It's my response. My view as asked for. It seems as if you only addressed one aspect of my post.

I am sorry if I felt I was speaking to/for you. I was speaking to the original poster about my take on the vocal internet minority that spews much venom at Lucas and The Prequels. The op asked why, and I gave my 2 cents. I was not trying to speak to your own personal life/feelings on Star Wars/whatever. A few thoughts though:

Quote:
I have no problem with those that like the PT, more power to you. However, I don't like it when PT people act like we've betrayed something.
It's not betraying anything. It's drawing an unecessary line in the sand. Like what are "PT" people? Or "PT defenders"? Those are phrases you actually use? Divide and conquer? Us and Them type of stuff? I am just an overall Star Wars fan. I dig it all.

Quote:
Again most people you talk to now don't seem to care as much for the PT.
Most people I talk to? They aren't ubergeeks about Star Wars and consider it all the same bag: Star Wars.

It's mostly on the internet that I find the great divide amongst the fans. You ever go to a Star Wars convention/celebration? I have gone to a few. You bet your last damn dollar that when George Lucas was onstage and audience could ask any questions on an open microphone not one internet warrior stood up and railed against the Prequels or called him out on them. Why not? I just don't hear/see a lot of the bad talk about Lucas or the special editions or prequels except for on the internet. Maybe it's just me.

You are not old enough to appreciate/witness all the drama back in 1983 about how "Ewoks wrecked Star Wars."

Many Star Wars nerds in 1983 were SOOOO disappointed in ROTJ. To me, things like Prequel hate and crying about Greedo shooting first are just modern variations of that type of non problem. People being so passionate about a product/art are bound get into nerd rage. I know I do sometimes. Batman & Robin anyone?


Lastly, your tangent about "Kids hate being kids." I am not sure what you were getting at. Explain it again.

IMO, there are plenty of kids that wanted/want to be Short Round and fantasize about being "kid" heroes. How do you explain Home Alone, Goonies, E.T., Stand by Me, etc and basically every iteration of Peter Pan? Hell, superheroes like Robin and Peter Parker were initially designed to appeal to the under 18 crowd. As were/are most fairy tale protagonists.

Again, sorry if I offended your Star Wars fanhood. I didn't mean to. Maybe should have left the asterisk comment out?


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Old 02-06-2013, 05:05 PM   #41
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Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

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Originally Posted by Jamiestarr View Post
It's my response. My view as asked for. It seems as if you only addressed one aspect of my post.

I am sorry if I felt I was speaking to/for you. I was speaking to the original poster about my take on the vocal internet minority that spews much venom at Lucas and The Prequels. The op asked why, and I gave my 2 cents. I was not trying to speak to your own personal life/feelings on Star Wars/whatever. A few things thought though:



It's not betraying anything. It's drawing an unecessary line in the sand. Like what are "PT" people? Or "PT defenders"? I am just an overall Star Wars fan. I dig it all. Well, maybe not The Holiday Special.



Most people I talk to? They aren't ubergeeks about Star Wars and consider it all the same bag: Star Wars.

It's mostly on the internet that I find the great divide amongst the fans. You ever go to a Star Wars convention/celebration? I have gone to a few. You bet your last damn dollar that when George Lucas was onstage and audience could ask any questions on an open microphone not one internet warrior stood up and railed against the Prequels or called him out on them. Why not? I just don't hear/see a lot of the bad talk about Lucas or the special editions or prequels except for on the internet. Maybe it's just me.

You may not be old enough to appreciate all the drama back in 1983 about how "Ewoks wrecked Star Wars."

Many Star Wars nerds everywhere were SOOOO disappointed in ROTJ. To me, things like Prequel hate and crying about Greedo shooting first are just modern variations of that type of non problem. People being so passionate about a product/art are bound get into nerd rage. I know I do.


Lastly, your tangent about "Kids hate being kids." I am not sure what you were getting at. Explain it again.

IMO, there are plenty of kids that wanted/want to be Short Round and fantasize about being "kid" heroes. How do you explain Home Alone, Goonies, E.T., Stand by Me, etc and basically every iteration of Peter Pan? Hell, superheroes like Robin and Peter Parker were initially designed to appeal to the under 18 crowd. As were/are most fairy tale protagonists.

Again, sorry if I offended your Star Wars fanhood. I didn't mean to. Maybe should have left the asterisk comment out?

First, I probably should not of made it seem like I was aiming at you, but as the whole ordeal, this guy wants to see our sides of it, and I just wanted to explain more of how I feel about it. Now I'm not taking it personally with you and I know you were not aiming directly at me, nor I you. So no worries there.

I too am an over all Star Wars fans, I buy tons of the EU stuff, video games, I actually like The Clone Wars (way better then the PT mainly because it's just better story telling/character creation). And there are aspects of the PT that I enjoy. However I just don't like Star Wars stuff because it says Star Wars on it. I remember an old joke about how if they put a box with deadly snakes with the Star Wars label on it people would still buy it lol. The franchise is strong.

It is strong to me but I still pull away and judge the work on it's own merits. I love Batman, but man I hated B&R and never cared for BR much either. So as a Bat fan I don't like everything that has him on the film/product. So I try to step back and judge the works for themselves.

Some kids may want to be kids, but lets not lie about it, we all had fantasies of being older. Being Luke Skywalker and so forth. I doubt many did not.

As for ROTJ I am too young for that, but I do have cousins and good friends that were alive during that whole period. One was in his 20's and he simply said that there was some anger over the Ewoks. The thing is the hate of that was not near what it was for the entire PT. The Ewoks were one part of the story in ROTJ, however again (which you can find other posts about characterization and how what the PT lacked was emotion/characters/soul) ROTJ had still the great characters we had come to know and love, adn they still were awesome, the acting was good, and Luke's journey was amazing. The Ewoks...ya they were bad. But there was much more good outweighing it. Many loved all the Jabba stuff, space battles, and final stuff with Luke, Vader and the Emperor. It was the Ewok stuff that I and many others agree was a weak point. However the arc of the characters continued to be great and give a satisfying (on an emotional level) ending for them.

To me ROTS had none of that because there was no build up, the other two films lacked any emotion or good character involvement so it just was the better made out of the three, but still to me that was not saying much. But some do like that one. Again in my experience most PT fans even admit the OT is superior over the PT but they still love the PT. Now to make a disclaimer I have many real life good friends and good friends on these boards like Hunter Rider that are big PT fans (he even got me into Clone Wars) and I don't think any "less" of them for liking it. My attacks go primarily to the films themselves.

When I went back to TFN a while ago, I found it funny that while I made many good logical arguments from a film making stand point of what was wrong with me to the PT all they could do instead of actually defend the work itself is attack me saying all the things that they typically say, nostalgia, you are a negative nelly, ect ect. Instead of using the merits of the film themselves to argue back. Which I think there is a reason why many can't do that, is because I think it shows there is a lack of merits to the films.

I enjoy aspects of them, but I think the ST should learn from the mistakes made with the PT. The Clone Wars came out of this PT so I'm glad of that.

There are conventions, and my friend has gone to a few of them, and that's not 100% accurate, there are people that wear a lot of "Han Shot First" stuff and many that did not like the PT at all, actually lots. But they don't complain about it because they are there to have fun. And so would I. The reason the fans do it on the internet is because it is the place for discussion while the conventions are more for celebration of the series.

As for the General Audience...ya it's all Star Wars to them, though many of them probably would say the OT were better films if you watched them back to back. But again I'm sure they don't mind any of them. But that is the same crowd that goes in droves to stuff like Transformers. So I think some of them may just be easier to please. Which there is nothing wrong with that.

So I hope there was no hard feelings because my intent is not to attack you with it.

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Old 02-06-2013, 06:47 PM   #42
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Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

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First, I probably should not of made it seem like I was aiming at you, but as the whole ordeal, this guy wants to see our sides of it, and I just wanted to explain more of how I feel about it. Now I'm not taking it personally with you and I know you were not aiming directly at me, nor I you. So no worries there.
Fair enough.


Quote:
I too am an over all Star Wars fans, I buy tons of the EU stuff, video games, I actually like The Clone Wars (way better then the PT mainly because it's just better story telling/character creation). And there are aspects of the PT that I enjoy. However I just don't like Star Wars stuff because it says Star Wars on it. I remember an old joke about how if they put a box with deadly snakes with the Star Wars label on it people would still buy it lol. The franchise is strong.

It is strong to me but I still pull away and judge the work on it's own merits. I love Batman, but man I hated B&R and never cared for BR much either. So as a Bat fan I don't like everything that has him on the film/product. So I try to step back and judge the works for themselves.
As do I. It's not about blind brand loyalty. It's about the fact that I see flaws/strengths in both the Prequels and the Original Trilogy, but that doesn't not diminish things that I love in either of them.

Quote:
Some kids may want to be kids, but lets not lie about it, we all had fantasies of being older. Being Luke Skywalker and so forth. I doubt many did not.
I get it, but I still don't see how it relates. You think that, in general, kids were not going to identify with a 10 year old Anakin? Do you have kids? Yeah, they pretend to be grown ups. However, they nearly universally gravitate to stories with kids in them.

Quote:
As for ROTJ I am too young for that, but I do have cousins and good friends that were alive during that whole period. One was in his 20's and he simply said that there was some anger over the Ewoks. The thing is the hate of that was not near what it was for the entire PT.
So says your cousins/good friends? It's hard to tell because there was no internet in 1983. Not everyone had the voice to reach million instantly. How do you gauge negative nerd outcry and compare decades apart?

I'll say this: By the time we got to ROTJ there was a lot of *****ing about all the puppets/muppets that took up the front half of the movie. You know what people said about Jabba's palace and the Ewoks? Toy commercial aimed at kids. Sound familiar?

Quote:
The Ewoks were one part of the story in ROTJ, however again (which you can find other posts about characterization and how what the PT lacked was emotion/characters/soul) ROTJ had still the great characters we had come to know and love, adn they still were awesome, the acting was good, and Luke's journey was amazing.
Acting was Star Wars acting in the OT too. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but there is a reason Mark Hamill's delivery of the "Going to tosche's to pick up power converters" line is ridiculed. Believe it or not, some people even took Hamill's acting to task during THE scene of all scenes after Vader reveals that he is Luke's father. There were folks that though his reaction and facial expressions were WAY overdone.

I am not one of them, but the fact is many critics ragged on the ORIGINAL Star Wars Trilogy as being special effects/spectacle over story/acting/dialogue. Look up some vintage reviews. Empire and Jedi got mixed reviews upon release.

Quote:
The Ewoks...ya they were bad.
Were they? I love em. They are the perfect fairy tale archetype.

Quote:
But there was much more good outweighing it. Many loved all the Jabba stuff, space battles, and final stuff with Luke, Vader and the Emperor. It was the Ewok stuff that I and many others agree was a weak point. However the arc of the characters continued to be great and give a satisfying (on an emotional level) ending for them.
Brother, you don't have to convince me. ROTJ is my favorite movie.

Quote:
To me ROTS had none of that because there was no build up, the other two films lacked any emotion or good character involvement so it just was the better made out of the three, but still to me that was not saying much. But some do like that one.
I think it's fair to say that "some" like all of them. Me included. Follow this:

I don't equate popularity/box office/rentals/sales with quality. However, if The Prequels didn't appeal to a MASSIVE amount of people, they wouldn't have made the box office that they did. In other words, one cannot paint them out to be Batman and Robin because that film had a HUGE dropoff in box office aka popularity from the previous films. People stayed away, even though Batman has huge brand appeal and franchise strength.

The Prequels, on the other hand, broke many box office records, and were routinely the highest grossing films of the year.

Again, I don't point out money made to convince you of QUALITY, just that the films obviously appealed to a HUGE segment of the population. Is that brand loyalty alone? Again, I don't think so. Look at Batman. Proof is in the pudding.



Quote:
Again in my experience most PT fans even admit the OT is superior over the PT but they still love the PT. Now to make a disclaimer I have many real life good friends and good friends on these boards like Hunter Rider that are big PT fans (he even got me into Clone Wars) and I don't think any "less" of them for liking it. My attacks go primarily to the films themselves.
Let me ask you this? Are there any PT fans that aren't OT fans? Know what I mean by that?
I would guess that most PT fans like/love Star Wars, in general. Overall, I like my first love, The Original Trilogy. It's the Star Wars I grew up with and know the best. That said, I know people that like Clone Wars the best, Prequels the best, Knights of the Old Republic the best, Lego Star Wars the best, etc. I even know a person that lives and dies by the Zahn Trilogy and loves Admiral Thrawn.

I guess I just don't know many folks who draw lines/pick sides when it comes to Star Wars. Again, only on the internet.

Quote:
When I went back to TFN a while ago, I found it funny that while I made many good logical arguments from a film making stand point of what was wrong with me to the PT all they could do instead of actually defend the work itself is attack me saying all the things that they typically say, nostalgia, you are a negative nelly, ect ect. Instead of using the merits of the film themselves to argue back. Which I think there is a reason why many can't do that, is because I think it shows there is a lack of merits to the films.
Here is the deal: Even loving Return of the Jedi as much as I do, I could tear it apart from a film critique standpoint. I could do this to Empire and A New Hope as well. I don't , though, because they don't have to be flawless films for me to love them. Believe me, many critiques leveled at the Prequels could be (and for a long time were) aimed at the original Trilogy.


Quote:
There are conventions, and my friend has gone to a few of them, and that's not 100% accurate, there are people that wear a lot of "Han Shot First" stuff and many that did not like the PT at all, actually lots. But they don't complain about it because they are there to have fun. And so would I. The reason the fans do it on the internet is because it is the place for discussion while the conventions are more for celebration of the series.
Right. But that's what I am saying. People are chicken **** in public. The internet cultivates cynicism and false bravado that few sane people would display in public. Isn't being a fan about fun.. as you say? Why the hostility when on the keyboards? Go to aintitcool.com to see what I mean.

Quote:
As for the General Audience...ya it's all Star Wars to them, though many of them probably would say the OT were better films if you watched them back to back. But again I'm sure they don't mind any of them. But that is the same crowd that goes in droves to stuff like Transformers. So I think some of them may just be easier to please. Which there is nothing wrong with that
.

I hear you, but if you really think Bayformers and The Prequels are on equal footing in terms of quality it's a tough pill for this Star Wars fan to swallow.


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So I hope there was no hard feelings because my intent is not to attack you with it.
None at all. Thanks for the talk.

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Old 02-06-2013, 08:21 PM   #43
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Since I haven't noticed it in the comments so far, I'd also like to throw in age as a factor. I was born in '89, so until about '97 I thought Star Wars was done. I loved it, I ate up the merchandise, but I never thought it would continue. So in '99 I was 10, and Anakin was 10, and it clicked. And amidst all the hate, I loved Episode I. I saw the SE Trilogy in theaters, so it wasn't my first SW film in theaters, but it was new and it was amazing.
Maybe it was growing up with these that left a good impression and made me enjoy them so much. At my age now, I can see the faults, and Episode II is probably my least favorite SW film, but I will defend them forever.
That said, Episode VII is that feeling from '99 all over again, but rather than that feeling of excitement that I could relate, it's the excitement over the uncertainty. We knew who Anakin would become, this is all new. We know nothing about this. And to me, that's awesome!
But defend them for what? I was in that same place. I was 7 with a blonde bowl cut, I had Anakin shirts and people used to think they were pictures of me. I ate the whole thing up. However I can see the flaws in Episodes I and II especially and an older me wishes I could still love them the way I still love the original films. Defending something because it gave you fun as a child is a pretty weak defense, I loved Batman and Robin at that age too but I don't try and say that was must fine either.

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Old 02-06-2013, 08:36 PM   #44
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Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

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Originally Posted by Jamiestarr View Post
Fair enough.




As do I. It's not about blind brand loyalty. It's about the fact that I see flaws/strengths in both the Prequels and the Original Trilogy, but that doesn't not diminish things that I love in either of them.



I get it, but I still don't see how it relates. You think that, in general, kids were not going to identify with a 10 year old Anakin? Do you have kids? Yeah, they pretend to be grown ups. However, they nearly universally gravitate to stories with kids in them.



So says your cousins/good friends? It's hard to tell because there was no internet in 1983. Not everyone had the voice to reach million instantly. How do you gauge negative nerd outcry and compare decades apart?

I'll say this: By the time we got to ROTJ there was a lot of *****ing about all the puppets/muppets that took up the front half of the movie. You know what people said about Jabba's palace and the Ewoks? Toy commercial aimed at kids. Sound familiar?



Acting was Star Wars acting in the OT too. Don't get me wrong, I love it, but there is a reason Mark Hamill's delivery of the "Going to tosche's to pick up power converters" line is ridiculed. Believe it or not, some people even took Hamill's acting to task during THE scene of all scenes after Vader reveals that he is Luke's father. There were folks that though his reaction and facial expressions were WAY overdone.

I am not one of them, but the fact is many critics ragged on the ORIGINAL Star Wars Trilogy as being special effects/spectacle over story/acting/dialogue. Look up some vintage reviews. Empire and Jedi got mixed reviews upon release.



Were they? I love em. They are the perfect fairy tale archetype.



Brother, you don't have to convince me. ROTJ is my favorite movie.



I think it's fair to say that "some" like all of them. Me included. Follow this:

I don't equate popularity/box office/rentals/sales with quality. However, if The Prequels didn't appeal to a MASSIVE amount of people, they wouldn't have made the box office that they did. In other words, one cannot paint them out to be Batman and Robin because that film had a HUGE dropoff in box office aka popularity from the previous films. People stayed away, even though Batman has huge brand appeal and franchise strength.

The Prequels, on the other hand, broke many box office records, and were routinely the highest grossing films of the year.

Again, I don't point out money made to convince you of QUALITY, just that the films obviously appealed to a HUGE segment of the population. Is that brand loyalty alone? Again, I don't think so. Look at Batman. Proof is in the pudding.





Let me ask you this? Are there any PT fans that aren't OT fans? Know what I mean by that?
I would guess that most PT fans like/love Star Wars, in general. Overall, I like my first love, The Original Trilogy. It's the Star Wars I grew up with and know the best. That said, I know people that like Clone Wars the best, Prequels the best, Knights of the Old Republic the best, Lego Star Wars the best, etc. I even know a person that lives and dies by the Zahn Trilogy and loves Admiral Thrawn.

I guess I just don't know many folks who draw lines/pick sides when it comes to Star Wars. Again, only on the internet.



Here is the deal: Even loving Return of the Jedi as much as I do, I could tear it apart from a film critique standpoint. I could do this to Empire and A New Hope as well. I don't , though, because they don't have to be flawless films for me to love them. Believe me, many critiques leveled at the Prequels could be (and for a long time were) aimed at the original Trilogy.




Right. But that's what I am saying. People are chicken **** in public. The internet cultivates cynicism and false bravado that few sane people would display in public. Isn't being a fan about fun.. as you say? Why the hostility when on the keyboards? Go to aintitcool.com to see what I mean.

.

I hear you, but if you really think Bayformers and The Prequels are on equal footing in terms of quality it's a tough pill for this Star Wars fan to swallow.




None at all. Thanks for the talk.
Some good points in there. However some I just disagree. Yes critics were mixed with Empire at first, mainly because it had such a tonal shift. It went from simplistic adventure, to very grey/more mature story telling. It had such a dark ending, and was not as upbeat like ANH which is what many were use to. But that turned around. Most critics and film scholastic today pretty much unanimously agree out of all of them ESB was the best of them, and still holds up to time. ROTJ actually was not as mixed in initial reviews as Empire was. But as time went on it did weaken some.

The fact of the matter is....ya you can tear any movie apart, but not easily. And sometimes it is a stretch and goes into people just ripping it apart for the sake of it. The thing is I went to film school for about 2 years, (ended up with a bachelors in business management, and an MBA in executive management....maybe I ended up like George lol) but in school we actually talked a lot about the OT, in terms of well done film making, and a lot of it was used for Editing 101, Directing 101, Writing 101. So the fact of the matter is these films are seen as treasures. They altered the way Hollywood worked ect. And many film makers aspire to make films like them. Do they have flaws...ya some. But not near as many as the PT. To me that is comparing a mouse to an elephant. The fact of the matter is, a lot of critics now, listening to their Podcasts, (especially after the Episode VII news) they all pretty much go..."man let's hope they don't end up like the prequels." It has been over 10 years since it started, and the love for the PT really has not gained momentum. And further, the BO was good, but it never achieved what Episode I did mainly because it took a hit because some just were not satisfied.

It can be hard to gauge, but from the over all stuff I hear even on non nerd places of the internet, and listening to Kathy and Lucas film there is a reason they are not making them like the PT, and are stating that. Because they know a big chunk of people did not care for them. When I see some try to tear down the OT to make the PT look better it reminds me of a guy with a mediocre girlfriend and seeing a hot chick come in and punching her in the face to go like "See she's not that hot." Again they don't go off of the merits of the PT. They attack either the fans or the OT.

Funny as most film professionals DGA, AFI ect, all many e pretty much agree the OT especially ANH and ESB were significant superb films and in some of the better class of film making. You never really see that with the PT. They are not teaching anything of the film making from PT really, and I doubt they ever will. With the OT respect grew over time. I think the opposite just from reading all the news sites and podcasts from (normal sources on the internet) kinda say well let's hope these are better.

So again I think they are in different leagues in terms of film making. Every film has flaws, but to me the PT does not have flaws, it has a fundamental problem with it's core.

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Old 02-06-2013, 09:00 PM   #45
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Agree to disagree?

I suppose we all mold/find/recite evidence and examples to support our own worldview. Keep in mind that ours is not necessarily how the rest of the world views things. I suppose that goes for gun control, taste in music, and certainly Star Wars.

That said, here is a view point that I share and one that pretty much sums up my feelings on the entire matter:

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/...IEWS/905170301


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Old 02-06-2013, 09:34 PM   #46
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Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

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Agree to disagree?

I suppose we all mold/find/recite evidence and examples to support our own worldview. Keep in mind that ours is not necessarily how the rest of the world views things. I supposed that goes for gun control, taste in music, and certainly Star Wars.

That said, here is a view point that I share and one that pretty much sums up my feelings on the entire matter:

http://rogerebert.suntimes.com/apps/...IEWS/905170301
I can live with agree to disagree.

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Old 02-06-2013, 11:10 PM   #47
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I get it, but I still don't see how it relates. You think that, in general, kids were not going to identify with a 10 year old Anakin? Do you have kids? Yeah, they pretend to be grown ups. However, they nearly universally gravitate to stories with kids in them.
I know you're defending kids but I wanted to chime in on this.
I mentioned in my last post how I did in fact relate to 10 year old Anakin at 10. That doesn't mean I didn't want to be the grown up, I always wished I was Boba Fett. But I'm speaking on all kids, but my daughter, who is six, also enjoys the films, but when we play, even if I want to play with Vader and Luke, she always wants to be either child Anakin (usually the Jedi version from the end of EpI.) or kid Boba from Clone Wars (even if it is the kid one, I'm proud of that). I just think she can relate to kid characters better, even if she likes the older ones.

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Old 02-07-2013, 10:32 AM   #48
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I know you're defending kids but I wanted to chime in on this.
I mentioned in my last post how I did in fact relate to 10 year old Anakin at 10. That doesn't mean I didn't want to be the grown up, I always wished I was Boba Fett. But I'm speaking on all kids, but my daughter, who is six, also enjoys the films, but when we play, even if I want to play with Vader and Luke, she always wants to be either child Anakin (usually the Jedi version from the end of EpI.) or kid Boba from Clone Wars (even if it is the kid one, I'm proud of that). I just think she can relate to kid characters better, even if she likes the older ones.
This right here is exactly why Lucas shouldn't have directed these movies. Parents start to view the world through their kids eyes and Lucas very much made these movies for his youngest Son. Did you ever notice how the movies grew up with him?

In Phantom Menace you have a bunch of slap stick comedy, a little boy as one of the heroes, and Jar Jar (who his son also named might I add). In Attack of the Clones he's a bit older and we have Anakin and Padme's relationship being executed in the way a 9 or 10 year old may imagine. Then in Sith we have like the ideal movie for a 12-14 year old; bunch of lightsaber fights, pseudo darkness, the kid is even in the movie swinging around a lightsaber at the temple this time!

The problem is you're trying to justify making Star Wars something kids can get into, when it already was something kids could get into and all adding the kids did was ruin it for anyone old enough to see how stupid that would be.

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Old 02-07-2013, 10:37 AM   #49
Jamiestarr
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Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

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Originally Posted by BenKenobi View Post
This right here is exactly why Lucas shouldn't have directed these movies. Parents start to view the world through their kids eyes and Lucas very much made these movies for his youngest Son. Did you ever notice how the movies grew up with him?

In Phantom Menace you have a bunch of slap stick comedy, a little boy as one of the heroes, and Jar Jar (who his son also named might I add). In Attack of the Clones he's a bit older and we have Anakin and Padme's relationship being executed in the way a 9 or 10 year old may imagine. Then in Sith we have like the ideal movie for a 12-14 year old; bunch of lightsaber fights, pseudo darkness, the kid is even in the movie swinging around a lightsaber at the temple this time!

The problem is you're trying to justify making Star Wars something kids can get into, when it already was something kids could get into and all adding the kids did was ruin it for anyone old enough to see how stupid that would be.
Star Wars was ALWAYS made as something for kids. Watch/read/look at anything about the creation of the 1977 film, and you will see that Lucas was making a film for a new generation of kids.

I mean, much as I love it, the Original Trilogy was not lauded as being great for it's dialogue/acting/character development/plot- meaning, a mature movie for grownups that kids could get into. It was a movie for the youth that grownups kind of dug as well.

Ever see the Star Wars episode of That 70's Show? The father's negative response to seeing Star Wars is a typical reaction from many adults upon the film's first release.


Last edited by Jamiestarr; 02-07-2013 at 10:43 AM.
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Old 02-07-2013, 10:43 AM   #50
Solidus
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Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

I still disagree, he may have thought that that is what he was aiming for. But it's not what it primarily did. Everyone went and saw it, adults, old people everything, and most loved it. The thing is is that it brought the kid out of everyone, but it still told a mature enough of story/character development that everyone connected and enjoyed. And at first he made films as films, not as merchandising commercials. I mean from charred skeletons, to grotesque monsters eating flesh, ect. They were not made...just for kids. But yes the Buck Rogers thing ect was inspiration. But he made something that was adventurous for all, adults could like as well as kids. The problem with the PT it aimed too much for kids, and ages way younger then he should have. The OT had so much depth from Campbell's philosophy to so much more. Which as people got older or adults could sink their teeth into.

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