The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > Star Wars > Star Wars: The Force Awakens

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-07-2013, 04:19 PM   #76
Jamiestarr
Newbie First Class
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 26
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by regwec View Post
I think they will extrapolate from the OT in a different way to the prequels. At least, that is what I would do. We can only exchange preferences and opinions at this stage.
Well, one thing that is cool/different than the prequels is that fans don't really what the new trilogy will even be about.

I mean we knew forever (since '83?) that the (if there were to be) Prequels that they'd be about a Young Anakin and Obi Wan and how Skywalker became Darth Vader. Molten lava, the fall of the republic, etc. Those facts were all known so, right away, fans had visions/expectations of what it was to be built on certain, solid, plot points. We had Episodes 1-3 that we had imagined. A bit like reading the book first.

You don't really have that with Episode VII.

I mean, we don't even know who any of the characters will be. I assume the droids, an old(bearded?), Jedi Master Luke, but I have no idea what the core of the plot will be.

I think that can only be good in terms of fan reactions. Unless you have an outcry from avid EU fans that there was no Admiral Thrawn or whatever.


Last edited by Jamiestarr; 02-07-2013 at 04:30 PM.
Jamiestarr is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 04:24 PM   #77
Jamiestarr
Newbie First Class
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 26
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi-Spirit View Post
If you think the PT was a boxoffice failure, well, there no way to reach you then...I just said you don't fix if not broken, Batman of the 90's = broken, Prequels, = Cash Cow!

And that is why, top to bottom, the product won't be very different...
I would like to interject that, say what you will about them, but the Prequels were unequivocally ENORMOUS money makers and the some of the biggest box office earners of their respective years.

You may HATE the films, but let's not try to pretend that they were not global behemoths at the box office.

Jamiestarr is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 04:28 PM   #78
Jedi-Spirit
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 141
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamiestarr View Post
Well, one thing that is cool/different than the prequels is that fans don't really what the new trilogy will even be about.

I mean we knew forever (since '83?) that the (if there were to be) Prequels that they'd be about a Young Anakin and Obi Wan and how Skywalker became Darth Vader. Molten lava, the fall of the republic, etc. Those were all know so, right away, fans had visions/expectations of what it was to be built on certain, solid, plot points. We had Episodes 1-3 that we had imagined. A bit like reading the book first.

You don't really have that with Episode VII.

I mean, we don't even know who any of the characters will be. I assume the droids, an old(bearded?), Jedi Master Luke, but I have no idea what the core of the plot will be.

I think that can only be good in terms of fan reactions. Unless you have an outcry from avid EU fans that there was no Admiral Thrawn or whatever.
There was a tiny bit of this in the Prequels really...for Example, Coruscant was not of Lucas, but of Zahn...other little things as well...It would be best to have a tip of the Hat to fans of the OT, PT & EU at times during the ST, but not at the expense of the Original story idea...

Jedi-Spirit is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 04:51 PM   #79
regwec
Shakespearo
 
regwec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Herne's Oak
Posts: 23,961
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi-Spirit View Post
If you think the PT was a boxoffice failure, well, there no way to reach you then...I just said you don't fix if not broken, Batman of the 90's = broken, Prequels, = Cash Cow!

And that is why, top to bottom, the product won't be very different...
I have said at least once that the prequels did perfectly well, financially. You are determined to see this as the only measure of the successful handling of a franchise over the long term, which is simplistic and short sighted.

If you dislike Batman and Robin as an example- despite its decent worldwide return- try Die Another Day, or Spiderman 3. The brand equity of a big film franchise outstrips the value of the return on one film. It is no advantage for your franchise to be considered a pop culture joke, or be rubbished by the critical press.

You are no doubt right to suppose that the new films will have things in common with the prequels- the nature of them all being Star Wars movies makes that an objective inevitability- but you can be assured that Abrams et al will try to introduce some clear distinctions, too.

__________________
Better Off ----> Out
Love Freedom?
regwec is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 05:50 PM   #80
Jamiestarr
Newbie First Class
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 26
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by regwec View Post
I have said at least once that the prequels did perfectly well, financially. You are determined to see this as the only measure of the successful handling of a franchise over the long term, which is simplistic and short sighted.

If you dislike Batman and Robin as an example- despite its decent worldwide return- try Die Another Day, or Spiderman 3. The brand equity of a big film franchise outstrips the value of the return on one film. It is no advantage for your franchise to be considered a pop culture joke, or be rubbished by the critical press.

You are no doubt right to suppose that the new films will have things in common with the prequels- the nature of them all being Star Wars movies makes that an objective inevitability- but you can be assured that Abrams et al will try to introduce some clear distinctions, too.

If I may, citing films like like Spider-Man 3, Die Another Day, and Batman and Robin are not very good examples for your argument.

Mostly because, after The Phantom Menace (despite any accusations of negative brand equity), two more Star Wars movies (that were made by the exact same creative team, in the same style, and the same tone) were ALSO monsters at the box office and near/at the very top of the $$$ heap when released.

I'm sorry, but the final financial take from Revenge of the Sith (6 years AFTER The Phantom Menace) isn't really showing a huge amount of box office degradation. Brand equity*?

If brand equity was as stripped to the levels that you are describing, you should have seen a much more substantial dip in box office take than was seen. Like Superman to Superman IV. Instead the Prequels displayed and earning pattern very similar (albeit less) than the Original Trilogy.

I know the Star Wars brand is strong, but so is Spider-Man, 007, and Batman. Yet, you don't see 3D re-releases of Spider-Man 3 or Batman and Robin. Why is that?

*What Lucas did with The Holiday Special is a good example of responding/protecting brand equity* when it comes to Star Wars.


Last edited by Jamiestarr; 02-07-2013 at 05:59 PM.
Jamiestarr is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 06:02 PM   #81
regwec
Shakespearo
 
regwec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Herne's Oak
Posts: 23,961
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Because the improvement after PM was sufficient to sustain the goodwill transposed from the OT. Sufficient.

__________________
Better Off ----> Out
Love Freedom?
regwec is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 06:06 PM   #82
Solidus
Kylo Ren
 
Solidus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The Dark Side
Posts: 17,703
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

To me a few things because my fingers are getting tired of this. lol

1. BO revenue does not alone equate equality. Transformers, and many other films that are usually agreed to be meh or terrible do well. Hell even in proportion those "Scary Movies" continue to do something. The OT still after inflation sold way more then the PT so again, if we will use that as an indicator it still says, the OT was much more loved, because it made even ESB and ROTJ in after inflation did more then the PT films.

2. You keep getting into perspective. And a part of me goes....well yea of course. There is perspective of everything. But if you continue just to argue that we will get into some kind of psychedelic, nothing is real kind of argument. It does not really pertain to what I'm saying. You yourself keep saying you know the quality of the PT is much less then the OT, and yet then you negate that and almost argue against it saying no. So I guess I"m confused. I know your saying it is not as bad, but you are admitting that the OT is pretty much a better all around experience?

The thing is this is not the posts of a "hater". I give every film a chance. And rarely go into my disdain for a film. This is an exception.

But the thing is you can try to say how many subjective things there are. But there is a point in the real world in many situations where you do have standards, and objective measures, or as objective as you can get. Box office does not always equate to quality. My whole point is on film making 101. Not just I liked it because. And with in those fields yes there is always exceptions. Is there a few people that really don't like TDK and other popular films? Of course. But there are measures that people use that are as objective as they can be to at least give some what of a consensus. Metacritic, and Rotten Tomatoes can give general (I mean general) indications of it. Where as some of these people in conglomerate have more experience with the craft called film. You have measures of awards ect. Just like in school is the grading systems perfect? Hell no, but they can give some general view of a person. As can films. IMDB and many other sites where millions rate it, can have somewhat of a perspective on it. Not the best but more objective then not. From the ratings you have 300,000 people giving ROTS a 7.7/10 whereas out of 900,000 user ratings you have a 9.0/10 for TDK. Are these perfect measures? No but they are better then "My experience/your experience" for a more massive intake of what is happening. With all the conglomerations of review sites, teachers, books and talks of the PT, it is (even to many PT fans) clear that many did not think nearly as great of the PT as they did the OT.

There is always subjectivity, but there are some core aspects that can be seen somewhat objectively. Are they always right? No. But the thing is if we say that, we could never get many things said in any regard and just always rebuttal for the sake of it. So is it better than nothing? I say yes.

My point is, the PT is not seen in the high regards of the OT to, fans (from fan ratings) to GA (Box office if you want to use that). To the film community, critics, like RT, like Metacritic, like The Academy Awards, and top 10 lists or critic circle awards, or AFI ect ect. Now as your point of ROTJ? Will it ever be something in the AFI, no I would say not. ROTJ still a great film, but started the signs of downfall which continued with the PT.

There are variances of thoughts on ROTJ, from fans, GA, critics ect. It rated an 8.4 out of 350,000 fan votes on IMDB. Now are these perfect, no there are some that disagree and that's just fine. But to me when you average a lot of this stuff out from Box Office Mojo, to Yahoo movies ect, when you pull what statistics you can (yes there is always error in it) You can paint a better picture then saying "Yes I think so, or no I think that."

To make my point, I actually love The Fountain, Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions, and more so Quantum of Solace. But funny enough, I know that these are not loved by the masses, and I know I'm in a minority, even though it did some what decent in sales/critic circles (barley decent) so I can sit there and say. "Yea I loved that movie, but I'm not going to lie and say everyone loves it to make me feel better." I look at what few objective measures we have. And even if I see the massive flaws in a film, there are times where I can't explain why I like it, but I don't try to rationalize and tell others that that is wrong.

Nor am I saying it's wrong that some like the PT, for what ever varying reasons. However, I can see that there is a clear difference to most between the two sagas. And to me what little evidence we can pull, I'd say ya I feel I have more of a strong point. And to me Red Letter Media really put an exclamation on it with very good strong strong points.

But I do find it interesting. Did you join these forums just for this discussion alone?.... We have lots more out there lots of fun in these boards.

And again would I say ROTS and ROTJ are someone in the same regards....slightly. The reviews for ROTJ are somewhat lower on some critic sites, because mainly they don't have as many as reviews. But again looking at the mass amount of fans it speaks again. Each user reviews on RT has about 1,000,000 reviews. And the PT averages around 63% where as the OT Around 93% out of millions of user reviews. I'd say there is a difference. Are these the best measuring stick? Maybe, but they are the best we have.

__________________
"There has been an awakening. Have you felt it? The Dark Side......and the Light."

"If you donít care about the characters, nothing matters. No space ship, no explosion, no anything is important if you donít feel something for the people involved."J.J. Abrams (2/5/13)

Last edited by Solidus; 02-07-2013 at 06:49 PM.
Solidus is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 08:29 PM   #83
TheDevilIsMe
Banned User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 157
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by vinsanity View Post
And you know this how? Did you called/mailed/faxed everyone who went to see the PT?
If someone posts that "Most movie-goers hated the PT" - nobody says a word, nor do they ask if that fan "Called/Mailed/Faxed" everyone who went to see it.

Suddenly if the opposite is written - the guy saying that suddenly needs to have called/mailed/faxed everyone for opinions or else that statement is invalid.

Lack of criteria/Sweeping generalizations only work one way, is that right?

TheDevilIsMe is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 08:34 PM   #84
Jamiestarr
Newbie First Class
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 26
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
To me a few things because my fingers are getting tired of this. lol

1. BO revenue does not alone equate equality. Transformers, and many other films that are usually agreed to be meh or terrible do well. Hell even in proportion those "Scary Movies" continue to do something. The OT still after inflation sold way more then the PT so again, if we will use that as an indicator it still says, the OT was much more loved, because it made even ESB and ROTJ in after inflation did more then the PT films.
Sure, but the OT made more after inflation than most modern blockbusters. They also stayed in the theaters much longer, were re-released several times, and had no home video market to contend with. Not excuses. Just saying it's hard to compare different eras. If you look at the all time top box office adjusted for inflation..it is primarily older movies, no?

Quote:
2. You keep getting into perspective. And a part of me goes....well yea of course. There is perspective of everything. But if you continue just to argue that we will get into some kind of psychedelic, nothing is real kind of argument. It does not really pertain to what I'm saying.
It does.. simply because you often use your subjective response to the movie as a factual piece of evidence to argue with.

For example: Caring about core characters emotions in the Original Trilogy, but not in The Prequels. That's YOUR reality/response. Not mine. Not everyone's. I am sure that many feel the way you do, but that doesn't make your claim/pov "the right one" or "more true."

Go back to your original response to how I answered the OP's questions: "Sorry so much of that is wrong". That's what you started off with. Probably because because it's not your perspective/perception. It's mine.

Quote:
You yourself keep saying you know the quality of the PT is much less then the OT, and yet then you negate that and almost argue against it saying no. So I guess I"m confused. I know your saying it is not as bad, but you are admitting that the OT is pretty much a better all around experience?
Hmm, I never once said the OT is better in quality. I said, in general, I prefer the OT. I think each Trilogy has merits and flaws to be heralded or picked apart.

Quote:
The thing is this is not the posts of a "hater". I give every film a chance. And rarely go into my disdain for a film. This is an exception.
Why is the exception?

Quote:
But the thing is you can try to say how many subjective things there are. But there is a point in the real world in many situations where you do have standards, and objective measures, or as objective as you can get. Box office does not always equate to quality.
I agree entirely. Some of my favorite films made little money.

That said, box office can be used as a barometer for popularity/cultural significance, etc.

It THE barometer the studios use. Believe you me, if it weren't you'd get no more Transformers, Pirates of the Caribbean, etc. and James Bond franchise would have died in the 70's.

Quote:
My whole point is on film making 101. Not just I liked it because. And with in those fields yes there is always exceptions.

Is there a few people that really don't like TDK and other popular films? Of course. But there are measures that people use that are as objective as they can be to at least give some what of a consensus. Metacritic, and Rotten Tomatoes can give general (I mean general) indications of it. Where as some of these people in conglomerate have more experience with the craft called film. You have measures of awards ect. Just like in school is the grading systems perfect? Hell no, but they can give some general view of a person. As can films. IMDB and many other sites where millions rate it, can have somewhat of a perspective on it. Not the best but more objective then not. From the ratings you have 300,000 people giving ROTS a 7.7/10 whereas out of 900,000 user ratings you have a 9.0/10 for TDK. Are these perfect measures? No but they are better then "My experience/your experience" for a more massive intake of what is happening.
Is it better? It still boils down to people subjectively judging art based on personal preference. Just because you add thousands or millions of opinions to it, and quantify it in a general consensus doesn't make it a fact...it is just numerous amounts of opinions.

Listen, tired fingers or not, I much prefer to talk about appreciation of films/art/Star Wars with you, Solidus, one on one. Don't you think that's better gauge and more authentic than seeing if what you/I like is deemed "officially cool" by the masses/numbers on the internet?

Quote:
With all the conglomerations of review sites, teachers, books and talks of the PT, it is (even to many PT fans) clear that many did not think nearly as great of the PT as they did the OT.
Sure, but that doesn't make it a true fact. Just opinion. Something that changes all of the time. See: Wizard of Oz. We touched on this earlier: Which is the best Bond film ever? Goldfinger? Skyfall? Casino Royale? The Spy Who Loved Me? OHMSS? Does rottentomatoes or metacritic really hold the truth about this? Are you telling me you've never loved a movie with less than an 80% fresh rating?
Quote:
There is always subjectivity, but there are some core aspects that can be seen somewhat objectively. Are they always right? No. But the thing is if we say that, we could never get many things said in any regard and just always rebuttal for the sake of it. So is it better than nothing? I say yes.
Got any Barney Stinson in you? Accept a challenge:

Give me 5 (non subjective) core aspects that you can use in determining which is a better movie: Revenge of the Sith vs Return of the Jedi?

Keep in mind, I already told you that ROTJ is my very favorite movie..as I said, I don't have a horse in this race. You went to film school, though.

Quote:
My point is, the PT is not seen in the high regards of the OT to, fans (from fan ratings) to GA (Box office if you want to use that). To the film community, critics, like RT, like Metacritic, like The Academy Awards, and top 10 lists or critic circle awards, or AFI ect ect. Now as your point of ROTJ? Will it ever be something in the AFI, no I would say not. ROTJ still a great film, but started the signs of downfall which continued with the PT.
Never once was I trying to put the PT over the OT.

I simply responded to the OP's question of: What's all the fan complaining about? I think it irritates you because I am suggesting it has to do more with the nature of hardcore fandom of any kind, than it does with the actual movie/film/art/music/etc.


T
Quote:
here are variances of thoughts on ROTJ, from fans, GA, critics ect. It rated an 8.4 out of 350,000 fan votes on IMDB. Now are these perfect, no there are some that disagree and that's just fine. But to me when you average a lot of this stuff out from Box Office Mojo, to Yahoo movies ect, when you pull what statistics you can (yes there is always error in it) You can paint a better picture then saying "Yes I think so, or no I think that."
Ultimately, that means nothing though. ROTJ kicks butt of every film ever made. You know that, right? :-)

Quote:
To make my point, I actually love The Fountain, Matrix Reloaded/Revolutions, and more so Quantum of Solace. But funny enough, I know that these are not loved by the masses, and I know I'm in a minority, even though it did some what decent in sales/critic circles (barley decent) so I can sit there and say. "Yea I loved that movie, but I'm not going to lie and say everyone loves it to make me feel better." I look at what few objective measures we have. And even if I see the massive flaws in a film, there are times where I can't explain why I like it, but I don't try to rationalize and tell others that that is wrong.
To my point:
I like all of the "unpopular" movies you listed, except for Matrix Revolutions. Yet, I am not going to try convince you that Revolutions is factually crap. Because, honestly, it wasn't crap. It just wasn't what I like, expected, and wanted to see.

I am not going to point opinions of legions of fanboys on the internet, nor legit movie critics to try to prove factually to you the movie was crap. Popular opinion doesn't support/negate that. Again, I didn't like Matrix Revolutions at all. Does that make it a crap movie? Nope. It was in many ways better executed than the original Matrix. It's just not my cup of tea. That's all. Get it?

Quote:
Nor am I saying it's wrong that some like the PT, for what ever varying reasons. However, I can see that there is a clear difference to most between the two sagas. And to me what little evidence we can pull, I'd say ya I feel I have more of a strong point. And to me Red Letter Media really put an exclamation on it with very good strong strong points.
Which if you had the time, or passion, to spend on a movie you detest, you could whip something very similar and convincing to what Red Letter Media did, but with The Godfather, or Jaws, or Mac and Me.

Quote:
But I do find it interesting. Did you join these forums just for this discussion alone?.... We have lots more out there lots of fun in these boards.
Nope I joined just because they finally added a Star Wars section and I wanted to check it out.


Last edited by Jamiestarr; 02-07-2013 at 08:45 PM.
Jamiestarr is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 08:36 PM   #85
TheDevilIsMe
Banned User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 157
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by regwec View Post
"Batman and Robin" was a very respectable commercial success, but it got panned.
No, actually it was not.

It made $107.3 million in the US total, and suffered a 63% drop in its second week alone. WB even admits to the financial disappointment in the press.

It did over $81,000,000 less in North America than its predecessor. And it made over $100,000,000 less than Batman Forever in the worldwide total.

You've got a poor argument. Batman and Robin wasn't a box office hit especially compared to the previous three films. Word of mouth killed it as well as poor professional reviews.

EDIT - And I'd like to be so bold as to make this point - justifying your stance by referencing the supposed consensus of the internet commenting community doesn't hold much water. That is such a small demographic, it's almost a joke.


Last edited by TheDevilIsMe; 02-07-2013 at 08:49 PM.
TheDevilIsMe is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 08:50 PM   #86
Solidus
Kylo Ren
 
Solidus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The Dark Side
Posts: 17,703
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamiestarr View Post
Sure, but the OT made more after inflation than most modern blockbusters. They also stayed in the theaters much longer, were re-released several times, and had no home video market to contend with. Not excuses. Just saying it's hard to compare different eras. If you look at the all time top box office adjusted for inflation..it is primarily older movies, no?


It does.. simply because you often use your subjective response to the movie as a factual piece of evidence to argue with.

For example: Caring about core characters emotions in the Original Trilogy, but not in The Prequels. That's YOUR reality/response. Not mine. Not everyone's. I am sure that many feel the way you do, but that doesn't make your claim/pov "the right one" or "more true."

Go back to your original response to how I answered the OP's questions: "Sorry so much of that is wrong". That's what you started off with. Probably because because it's not your perspective/perception. It's mine.



Hmm, I never once said the OT is better in quality. I said, in general, I prefer the OT. I think each Trilogy has merits and flaws to be heralded or picked apart.



Why is the exception?



I agree entirely. Some of my favorite films made little money. That said, box office can be used as a barometer for popularity/cultural significance, etc.



Is it better? It still boils down to people subjectively judging art based on personal preference. Just because you add thousands or millions of opinions to it, and quantify it in a general consensus doesn't make it a fact...it is just numerous amounts of opinions.

Listen, tired fingers or not, I much prefer talk about appreciation of films/art/Star Wars with you, personally Solidus, one on one and talk about our experiences. Don't you think that's better and more authentic than seeing if what you/I like is deemed "officially cool" by the masses on the internet?



Sure, but that doesn't make it a true fact. Just popular opinion. Something that changes all of the time. See: Wizard of Oz. We touched on this earlier: Which is the best Bond film ever? Goldfinger? Skyfall? Casino Royale? The Spy Who Loved Me? OHMSS? Does rottentomatoes or metacritic really hold the truth about this? Are you telling me you've never loved a movie with less than an 80% fresh rating?


Got any Barney Stinson in you? Accept a challenge:

Give me 5 (non subjective) core aspects that you can use in determining which is a better movie: Revenge of the Sith vs Return of the Jedi?

Keep in mind, I already told you that ROTJ is my very favorite movie..as I said, I don't have a horse in this race. You went to film school, though.



Never once was I trying to put the PT over the OT.

I simply responded to the OP's question of: What's all the fan *****ing about? I think it irritates you because I am suggesting it has to do more with the nature of hardcore fandom of any kind, than it does with the actual movie/film/art/music/etc.


There are variances of thoughts on ROTJ, from fans, GA, critics ect. It rated an 8.4 out of 350,000 fan votes on IMDB. Now are these perfect, no there are some that disagree and that's just fine. But to me when you average a lot of this stuff out from Box Office Mojo, to Yahoo movies ect, when you pull what statistics you can (yes there is always error in it) You can paint a better picture then saying "Yes I think so, or no I think that."



To my point:
I like all of the "unpopular" movies you listed, except for Matrix Revolutions. Yet, I am not going to try convince you that Revolutions is factually ****. Because, honestly, it wasn't ****. It just wasn't what I like, expected, and wanted to see.

I am not going to point opinions of legions of fanboys on the internet, nor legit movie critics to try to prove factually to you the movie was ****. Popular opinion doesn't support/negate that. Again, I didn't like Matrix Revolutions at all. Does that make it a **** movie? Nope. It was in many ways better executed than the original Matrix. It's just not my cup of tea. That's all. Get it?

Nor am I saying it's wrong that some like the PT, for what ever varying reasons. However, I can see that there is a clear difference to most between the two sagas. And to me what little evidence we can pull, I'd say ya I feel I have more of a strong point. And to me Red Letter Media really put an exclamation on it with very good strong strong points.

Which if you had the time, or passion, to spend on a movie you detest, you could whip something very similar and convincing to what Red Letter Media did, but with The Godfather, or Jaws, or Mac and Me.



Nope I joined just because they finally added a Star Wars section and I wanted to check it out.
First I doubt the RLM thing. You could do it to any film, but man it would be very hard to do with a film like that. Yes there is subjectivity. But my point is the mass amount of subjectivity from many different sources and so forth show that yes the OT held in higher regard. The numbers are there. The point was to show what we felt about the whole thing. I've given what measurements I could, including my subjective view.

I think having millions of people rating something may give it more concrete as an over view. Yes you can say there is a person out there that thinks TPM is the best film ever. That's fine. But it's not what the majority think. Does that make the majority right? Not necessarily. The point was of this thread, asking do we see a division of fans? The answer, yes there is, and it's massive. A lot of fans did not think the PT was as good. You can call it subjective, and yea it comes down to that. However, a lot of subjective views on the PT are in line of what I'm saying. And the point again, the PT is not seen in the same regards as the OT.

To me this argument has skewed to something else. And again it gets to that deep...."are we a really here?"

I still see this as the argument. "The OT is not that great, and I can show you it's flaws too." But again no merits of the PT are popping up.

So good convo though, but I think I still have a stronger point, and of course you will think the same of yours too. As for the "five core" aspects....why five? That and I said some what objective. There is no such thing is pure objective. To me if you have more subjective views pointing one way.....that may say something. Does it always? No (in before you say that does not make it right) but in a lot of cases yes. My signature speaks volumes of what many of us felt was wrong with the PT. Lack of characters and any dimentionality. Do some feel different...yes. But a lot feel this way. And we can play tug a-war until the cows come home.

I am more excited for the ST, because I bet they will be seen in higher regards then that of the PT to a lot of people.

__________________
"There has been an awakening. Have you felt it? The Dark Side......and the Light."

"If you donít care about the characters, nothing matters. No space ship, no explosion, no anything is important if you donít feel something for the people involved."J.J. Abrams (2/5/13)
Solidus is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 08:58 PM   #87
TheDevilIsMe
Banned User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 157
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Everything is subjective and everything is only opinion, but...

...there is always an opinion that the majority of people agree with. Doesn't make that opinion right - it just means that most people happen to share that opinion in common.

And I for some reason cannot stand RedLetterMedia. I really loathe the internet community's armchair critics no matter if I agree with them or not. An hour and a half review of a 14 year film is really over-doing it and the fact that alot of internet users rally behind RLM is silly.

TheDevilIsMe is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 08:59 PM   #88
Solidus
Kylo Ren
 
Solidus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The Dark Side
Posts: 17,703
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilIsMe View Post
Everything is subjective and everything is only opinion, but...

...there is always an opinion that the majority of people agree with. Doesn't make that opinion right - it just means that most people happen to share that opinion in common.
That is my point. But you did a better job saying in it fewer words lol.

__________________
"There has been an awakening. Have you felt it? The Dark Side......and the Light."

"If you donít care about the characters, nothing matters. No space ship, no explosion, no anything is important if you donít feel something for the people involved."J.J. Abrams (2/5/13)
Solidus is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:02 PM   #89
C. Lee
I'm not old...I'm ancient
SHH! Administrator
 
C. Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 45,541
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

If I like or dislike something that others do or don't.....I don't spend all my time trying to convert them.

I state my position....I may point out a factual point they got wrong....but I don't go over the same thing a coupler dozen times.

But that's me.

Did I like the OT more than the PT....yes.

Did I enjoy watching all of them....yes.

C. Lee is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:03 PM   #90
Jamiestarr
Newbie First Class
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 26
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solidus View Post
That is my point. But you did a better job saying in it fewer words lol.

Holy crap! Really? Are we done? THAT was your point? Why go after me at all Mr "So Much of this is Wrong"?

Seriously, I appreciate the talk. Thanks for being cool.

Jamiestarr is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:04 PM   #91
TheDevilIsMe
Banned User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 157
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C. Lee View Post
If I like or dislike something that others do or don't.....I don't spend all my time trying to convert them.
This makes you a fan that I can respect.

Nothing peeves me more than people who get on others' case for not hating something/not liking something.

Ever seen these people? I've seen people on YouTube go from video to video related to Star Wars decrying the Prequels (posting the same message in each video) and attacking anyone who says a positive thing. Telling them to "You need to watch RLM if you like those movies. You're wrong!!!!"

I don't get fans like that.

TheDevilIsMe is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:05 PM   #92
Solidus
Kylo Ren
 
Solidus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The Dark Side
Posts: 17,703
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C. Lee View Post
If I like or dislike something that others do or don't.....I don't spend all my time trying to convert them.

I state my position....I may point out a factual point they got wrong....but I don't go over the same thing a coupler dozen times.

But that's me.

Did I like the OT more than the PT....yes.

Did I enjoy watching all of them....yes.
I'm a freak what can I say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamiestarr View Post
Holy crap! Really? Are we done? THAT was your point? Why go after me at all Mr "So Much of this is Wrong"?

Seriously, I appreciate the talk. Thanks for being cool.
No I appreciate it as well. However, yes I felt a lot of it was wrong, and to me writing/forums I can only express so much.

__________________
"There has been an awakening. Have you felt it? The Dark Side......and the Light."

"If you donít care about the characters, nothing matters. No space ship, no explosion, no anything is important if you donít feel something for the people involved."J.J. Abrams (2/5/13)
Solidus is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:07 PM   #93
TheDevilIsMe
Banned User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 157
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

I think at one of these Star Wars conventions, there needs to be an event where those that love the whole saga debate with those that only love the OT.

If it's such a hot-topic on the internet for debate everywhere you turn - surely it would be at one of these conventions, right?

TheDevilIsMe is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:07 PM   #94
Solidus
Kylo Ren
 
Solidus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The Dark Side
Posts: 17,703
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilIsMe View Post
This makes you a fan that I can respect.

Nothing peeves me more than people who get on others' case for not hating something/not liking something.

Ever seen these people? I've seen people on YouTube go from video to video related to Star Wars decrying the Prequels (posting the same message in each video) and attacking anyone who says a positive thing. Telling them to "You need to watch RLM if you like those movies. You're wrong!!!!"

I don't get fans like that.
Honestly you are no longer objective in your study then if you think the OT lovers are mean negative people all the time. Have you watched RLM? You seem to know a lot about it already. And other PT fans tell us we need to like the PT to be Star Wars fans. It is a double edged sword. I've been attacked at places like TFN just as much.

__________________
"There has been an awakening. Have you felt it? The Dark Side......and the Light."

"If you donít care about the characters, nothing matters. No space ship, no explosion, no anything is important if you donít feel something for the people involved."J.J. Abrams (2/5/13)
Solidus is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:12 PM   #95
C. Lee
I'm not old...I'm ancient
SHH! Administrator
 
C. Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 45,541
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TheDevilIsMe View Post
Ever seen these people? I've seen people on YouTube go from video to video related to Star Wars decrying the Prequels (posting the same message in each video) and attacking anyone who says a positive thing. Telling them to "You need to watch RLM if you like those movies. You're wrong!!!!"
I rarely read comments on anything posted on the internet other than here. When I do read them, the negativity and rudeness reminds me not to read them for another year or so.

If I don't like something...I will say so a couple of times and give my reasons....then move on. I don't obsess over it like so many others seem to do.

C. Lee is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:20 PM   #96
Solidus
Kylo Ren
 
Solidus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: The Dark Side
Posts: 17,703
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by C. Lee View Post
I rarely read comments on anything posted on the internet other than here. When I do read them, the negativity and rudeness reminds me not to read them for another year or so.

If I don't like something...I will say so a couple of times and give my reasons....then move on. I don't obsess over it like so many others seem to do.
People being positive and love a movie can be as negative to others as those that don't like it. And there are some of us that can civilly try to explain it with out trying to degrade a person too.

__________________
"There has been an awakening. Have you felt it? The Dark Side......and the Light."

"If you donít care about the characters, nothing matters. No space ship, no explosion, no anything is important if you donít feel something for the people involved."J.J. Abrams (2/5/13)
Solidus is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:29 PM   #97
TheDevilIsMe
Banned User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 157
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solidus View Post
Honestly you are no longer objective in your study then if you think the OT lovers are mean negative people all the time. Have you watched RLM? You seem to know a lot about it already. And other PT fans tell us we need to like the PT to be Star Wars fans. It is a double edged sword. I've been attacked at places like TFN just as much.
By my experience...those that speak loudest and most often to represent the OT-Only side tend to be more negative/nasty than the other side...I actually think those that happen to be mean and love the whole saga have been conditioned by the internet to attack first or be defensive from the get-go due to the abuse that PT and its fans got on a regular basis the last decade. They take it personally just like those disappointed with the PT take it personally that the films weren't up to par to them - they act as if it was a direct slap in their face.

Those that defend the PT to the point of attacking OT-Only fans most likely do so because they're expecting a horde of negativity being sent their way for their opinions - making them defensive at the drop of a hat.

The OT-Only group attacks/insults and even threaten Lucas in the comments sections/forums and love to state who the 'real fans are' (which is insulting to those that love the PT/OT), not to mention have made a career of being upset, joking, making satire, complaining and picking apart the Prequels day after day, year after year. The fact that they won't end their crusade and have RLM and other places on their side makes PT fans feel outgunned and outnumbered, thus feeling intimidated therefore making a PT-Fan apt to feel threatened and feel the need to strike first and/or be mean.

Yes, I have watched most of RLM's Star Wars reviews.

I never said OT-Only fans were mean/negative people - but I am saying the vocal ones that speak the loudest end up representing that sect of the fanbase to be generally more mean spirited than those who love the whole saga. There are plenty of great fans who only love the OT.

I do pity those that love the whole saga - Star Wars fans for years had to fend off those who bullied them/gave them hell for being a Star Wars fan and now they have to fight inside their own fanbase for their ground.

TheDevilIsMe is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:31 PM   #98
Jamiestarr
Newbie First Class
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 26
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solidus View Post
Honestly you are no longer objective in your study then if you think the OT lovers are mean negative people all the time. Have you watched RLM? You seem to know a lot about it already. And other PT fans tell us we need to like the PT to be Star Wars fans. It is a double edged sword. I've been attacked at places like TFN just as much.
Do you all think the divide/debate is really about the movies though?

This stuff goes on with ALL types of fandom. At a point, it's not even about what the movies actually are.

I am sure there are countless Trekkies bickering about JJ's Star Trek Vs Original Trek vs Next Generation.

Solidus...come on. Let's make Star Wars fan club cards, and I'll put an asterisk on yours that says *Except for The Prequel Trilogy (Barf)

Jamiestarr is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:32 PM   #99
TheDevilIsMe
Banned User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 157
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jamiestarr View Post
Do you all think the divide/debate is really about the movies though?

This stuff goes on with ALL types of fandom. At a point, it's not even about what the movies actually are.

I am sure there are countless Trekkies bickering about JJ's Star Trek Vs Original Trek vs Next Generation.

Solidus...come on. Let's make Star Wars fan club cards, and I'll put an asterisk on yours that says *Except for The Prequel Trilogy (Barf)
You're a whole saga fan so I'm sure you'd know if I was on the right track, - is my theory in the post above yours likely or true in any form?

TheDevilIsMe is offline  
Old 02-07-2013, 09:38 PM   #100
C. Lee
I'm not old...I'm ancient
SHH! Administrator
 
C. Lee's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 45,541
Default Re: The Star Wars Fanbase - How do they feel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solidus View Post
People being positive and love a movie can be as negative to others as those that don't like it.
I know they can. There have been some avid fans of various things that I have had to calm down on here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Solidus View Post
And there are some of us that can civilly try to explain it with out trying to degrade a person too.
I know. I meet some now and then.

But I wasn't speaking of the posts on message boards....I was saying that I rarely read any comments that appear after things such as youtube videos, news items, etc....When I do read some of those, the rudeness, crudeness, and just immature hooliganism (been wanting to use that word for awhile now) lowers my IQ.

C. Lee is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 11:24 PM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.