The President Obama Thread

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

If the drones can find these alleged traitors, then some branch of our armed services should be able to go in and arrest them rather than outright kill them.

Aside; I like how this drone stuff rustled Hannity's jimmies even when it probably wouldn't have bothered him if it were being done under a different president.

[Schlosser85]

Honestly, if an American citizen is verifiably aiding and abetting terrorists and we send a drone with his name on it, I don't give a damn.

I do have pause about the number of inadvertent civilian casualties in these so-called "precision strikes", as well as the second hits that come minutes later when first responders are arriving on the scene and getting bombed as well.

[Destructus86]

If there are civilian casualities than our president is a mass murderer.

If another country did drone attacks on our soil to take out suspected terrorists and women and children died WE would call it mass murder. But because it happens in another country, especially one less civilized it's merely "casualties"

[Darthphere]

So is every President in the history of the United States if you use that logic.

[Kelly]

This is a very tough topic for me to have a totally set opinion on. There is a part of me that has a problem with the the civilian casualties that come with these attacks, but then there is the other part of me that says.....if it means fewer of our men and women in the military coming home in caskets...then go for it.

I just hate the whole thing.... : /

[Darthphere]

Originally Posted by Kelly

This is a very tough topic for me to have a totally set opinion on. There is a part of me that has a problem with the the civilian casualties that come with these attacks, but then there is the other part of me that says.....if it means fewer of our men and women in the military coming home in caskets...then go for it.

I just hate the whole thing.... : /

I feel the same way honestly. While civilian casualties are terrible I think people that are harping on it are just doing it because they don't like Obama. Like I said before, if causing civilian casualties is enough to be called a mass murderer, every President is guilty.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Darthphere

I feel the same way honestly. While civilian casualties are terrible I think people that are harping on it are just doing it because they don't like Obama. Like I said before, if causing civilian casualties is enough to be called a mass murderer, every President is guilty.

Well, it is very well known around here I'm not a fan of Obama....but I really don't think this is the thing we or anyone on the Hill should be barking at him about.....there are far more important FISCAL things that I would like to have a sit down with him about.

[Schlosser85]

Originally Posted by Destructus86

If there are civilian casualities than our president is a mass murderer.

If another country did drone attacks on our soil to take out suspected terrorists and women and children died WE would call it mass murder. But because it happens in another country, especially one less civilized it's merely "casualties"

By that logic, every President in every war and most Generals are mass murderers.

It's war. Civilian casualties are an unfortunate inevitable occurrence.

I'm not saying its morally right, but it just "is". It happens.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Originally Posted by Kelly

Well, it is very well known around here I'm not a fan of Obama....but I really don't think this is the thing we or anyone on the Hill should be barking at him about.....there are far more important FISCAL things that I would like to have a sit down with him about.

Shhhhh. We have no spending problem.

[Destructus86]

Originally Posted by Schlosser85

By that logic, every President in every war and most Generals are mass murderers.

It's war. Civilian casualties are an unfortunate inevitable occurrence.

I'm not saying its morally right, but it just "is". It happens.

Except that double tapping drone attacks are considered a war crime.
Causing deaths and having a total disregard for civilian lives is a big difference. We should be making EVERY effort to avoid killing civilizans. But we really don't.

[Schlosser85]

^ I can agree with that much. Invading a sovereign nation without provocation like we did with Iraq is considered a war crime too.

It was declared "waging aggressive war" at Nuremberg, and some German Generals were sentenced to ten years or more in prison for it.

It wasn't meant to apply only to the Nazis, it was meant to set a precedent for the future so that countries couldn't just invade other countries whenever they felt like it.

Waterboarding was also considered torture when the Nazis did it to French Resistance agents.

[terry78]

America will always be the "damned we do, damned if we don't" scapegoat. Some just look for an excuse with us.

[RustyCage]

If hundreds of innocent women and children being mass-killed isn't enough for you, also consider: We're $16+ Trillion in debt, and growing.

Perpetual war ain't getting any cheaper.

[CConn]

It's not as simple as that. America had an extremely isolationist strategy at the turn of last century, and we still ended up involved in the two largest conflicts in history.

While I would say we are a bit too involved in the world military scene, there is a certain preventative logic to it.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by CConn

It's not as simple as that. America had an extremely isolationist strategy at the turn of last century, and we still ended up involved in the two largest conflicts in history.

While I would say we are a bit too involved in the world military scene, there is a certain preventative logic to it.

Preventative? Oh, you mean like creating severe blowback, funding dictators, aiding financially in a modern religious holocaust, monopolizing other countries' resources by force, crippling trade with an ally of the world's other largest superpowers, all while going far beyond broke?

I bet that'll prevent all kinds of threats to the US in the future.

What do you think is gonna happen when our economy inevitably crashes and Russia and China finally get fed up with our government's bullying?

Of course it's not simple. It's a suicidal web of greed.

[CConn]

Yeah, that's not what i was saying at all. I was mainly agreeing with you, just saying the matter is more complex than you realize.

But its quite obvious you don't even have the most basic knowledge of either the current sociopolitical scene nor any concept of the historical trends and precedents that exists.

[Destructus86]

Originally Posted by terry78

America will always be the "damned we do, damned if we don't" scapegoat. Some just look for an excuse with us.

I think the problem is is that mentality of "We're America!!!". We think we can do whatever we want...we can commit war crimes and feel we don't have to answer to anyone. Of course if another country does that then we run crying to the UN. Or we just invade. We're a bully nation that takes what we want with no regard for the people that are trampled under our well trained feet.


My point is...we are NOT the "good guys". Despite what our ads say.

[terry78]

Well, we've always been the country that's known for setting the example over the years. There's backlash moreso than ever now. But you gotta make decisions, not win popularity contests. If we help, we're *******s, and if we don't help we're still *******s.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by CConn

Yeah, that's not what i was saying at all. I was mainly agreeing with you, just saying the matter is more complex than you realize.

'Preventative' is hardly agreeing with me.

You could have started by explaining your logic instead of just throwing out vague statements without substantiating them in the slightest.

But its quite obvious you don't even have the most basic knowledge of either the current sociopolitical scene nor any concept of the historical trends and precedents that exists.

Hollow insults are not a replacement for an argument.

If you feel I'm oblivious (despite the fact that I provided several examples of context while you provided nearly zero to me), please, feel free to inform me of what I am missing. But petty retorts like 'you're ignorant' mean -nothing-.

Bottom line: There is nothing 'preventative' about provoking World War III and making ourselves economically vulnerable at the same time.

There is also nothing 'simple' about the concern I'm expressing.

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by Destructus86

I think the problem is is that mentality of "We're America!!!". We think we can do whatever we want...we can commit war crimes and feel we don't have to answer to anyone. Of course if another country does that then we run crying to the UN. Or we just invade. We're a bully nation that takes what we want with no regard for the people that are trampled under our well trained feet.


My point is...we are NOT the "good guys". Despite what our ads say.

Vote our representatives out of office. This is the power the constitution gives us as american citizens. If you dont like the administration vote against it. Clearly this country is cool with the status quo. We are engaged in war and in war collateral is a very real consequence. Me being an american I am naturally biased towards my own people. If it comes down to drone bombing a location or sending in our troops I will pick the drone. It isnt a good or a just decision, but its the choice we got.

It would be nice if they could stop this Jihad BS and religious BS and just get along but they cant.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by Marvolo

Vote our representatives out of office. This is the power the constitution gives us as american citizens. If you dont like the administration vote against it. Clearly this country is cool with the status quo. We are engaged in war and in war collateral is a very real consequence. Me being an american I am naturally biased towards my own people. If it comes down to drone bombing a location or sending in our troops I will pick the drone. It isnt a good or a just decision, but its the choice we got.

The voting system has been sabotaged by the mainstream media, Wall Street, and public education system. They have it rigged to their benefit with control over mass information and the sheer amount of dollars they're able to pour into it.

The only chance we have is to use the internet (assuming it remains free) to spread awareness and information to counter their marketing capabilities. That's really what it is. Marketing.

It's a very uphill struggle though, for now. So don't expect to see much in the way of actual results from voting for probably a number of years...

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

The voting system has been sabotaged by the mainstream media, Wall Street, and public education system. They have it rigged to their benefit with control over mass information and the sheer amount of dollars they're able to pour into it.

The only chance we have is to use the internet (assuming it remains free) to spread awareness and information to counter their marketing capabilities. That's really what it is. Marketing.

It's a very uphill struggle though, for now. So don't expect to see much in the way of actual results from voting for probably a number of years...

Its disorganization and lack of motivation and unawareness. We have the power but you are right until the populace pulls its head out of the media's ass we cant expect much change.

[RustyCage]

Well summarized. I think I'll put it that way from now on.

(Your avatar is really cool. What's that from??)

[Marvolo]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

Well summarized. I think I'll put it that way from now on.

(Your avatar is really cool. What's that from??)

It is a White Walker from HBO's Game of Thrones. One of my favorite shows.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

The voting system has been sabotaged by the mainstream media, Wall Street, and public education system. They have it rigged to their benefit with control over mass information and the sheer amount of dollars they're able to pour into it.

The only chance we have is to use the internet (assuming it remains free) to spread awareness and information to counter their marketing capabilities. That's really what it is. Marketing.

It's a very uphill struggle though, for now. So don't expect to see much in the way of actual results from voting for probably a number of years...

How has the Public Education System sabotaged it, and for what reason?