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Old 02-09-2013, 06:57 PM   #51
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

How is the Fantastic Four being "less special" problematic? Also, how are they less special exactly?

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Old 02-09-2013, 07:23 PM   #52
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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None of them. Smart writers don't pretend characters never existed. Smart writers do something clever with them. There isn't a single "******" Marvel character who couldn't be really cool and interesting if given the right twist.
No one's talking about writers pretending the characters never existed.

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Old 02-09-2013, 07:30 PM   #53
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No one's talking about writers pretending the characters never existed.
Someone was. Me.

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Old 02-09-2013, 07:32 PM   #54
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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How is the Fantastic Four being "less special" problematic? Also, how are they less special exactly?
Don't understand the emboldened question. But mutants pop up everywhere. And they have absolutely no say in whether they become superpowered or not. So despite all the effort, money and willpower Tony Stark put and continues to put into being Iron Man, Cyclops was born with the ability to shoot laser beams, Archangel with the ability to fly, Beast with super strength.

Despite Bruce Banner and Hank Pym's intelligence and experimentation into deep sciences, Steve Rogers' rigorous training and strategic mind, Stephen Strange being trained, chosen and having the heart to call upon magics, there are mutants born with very similar degrees of power. Some who don't even want them.

Despite the F4 adventuring into the deep unknowns of (space/negative zone) and discovering cosmic energy that NO other humans on the earth would ever dream of discovering, mutants already have powers comparable or even more powerful than them without even trying. So instead of the couple dozen superheroes in the MU, there are hundreds to thousands.

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Old 02-09-2013, 07:35 PM   #55
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Don't understand the emboldened question.
You said that mutants make the Fantastic Four seem less special. My question is, how is that a problem?

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But mutants pop up everywhere. And they have absolutely no say in whether they become superpowered or not. So despite all the effort, money and willpower Tony Stark put and continues to put into being Iron Man, Cyclops was born with the ability to shoot laser beams, Archangel with the ability to fly, Beast with super strength.

Despite Bruce Banner and Hank Pym's intelligence and experimentation into deep sciences, Steve Rogers' rigorous training and strategic mind, Stephen Strange being trained, chosen and having the heart to call upon magics, there are mutants born with very similar degrees of power. Some who don't even want them.

Despite the F4 adventuring into the deep unknowns of (space/negative zone) and discovering cosmic energy that NO other humans on the earth would ever dream of discovering, mutants already have powers comparable or even more powerful than them without even trying.
Okay.

So what?


Despite going to college and working hard Matt Murdock will never be as rich as Tony Stark. Some people are born with advantages that other people don't have. That's just how life works.

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So instead of the couple dozen superheroes in the MU, there are hundreds to thousands.
That has nothing to do with mutants and everything to do with franchising.

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Old 02-09-2013, 07:38 PM   #56
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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Okay.

So what?

Despite going to college and working hard Matt Murdock will never be as rich as Tony Stark. Some people are born with advantages that other people don't have. That's just how life works.

That has nothing to do with mutants and everything to do with franchising.
No sir, this has everything to do with mutants. The fact that one in every hundred humans born on Earth will be a mutant is the exact problem I'm referring to.

Besides, last I checked its "What Character do you wish Marvel never created..."

and not "What Character can you prove Marvel never should have created..."

this is my opinion.

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Old 02-09-2013, 07:45 PM   #57
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No sir, this has everything to do with mutants. The fact that one in every hundred humans born on Earth will be a mutant is the exact problem I'm referring to.
Except if Mutants didn't exist Marvel would have created just as many new super heroes over the years because that's how franchises work.

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Besides, last I checked its "What Character do you wish Marvel never created..."

and not "What Character can you prove Marvel never should have created..."

this is my opinion.
Generally the purpose of threads like this is for people to discuss the topic and the choices people post. Otherwise it would just be a list.

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Old 02-09-2013, 07:56 PM   #58
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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You said that mutants make the Fantastic Four seem less special. My question is, how is that a problem?
If the Fantastic Four aren't special, I'm reading the comics purely for the literary content. The skills of the writer or perhaps the illustrator. Which, makes sense, to an extent, but there are walls and walls of phenomenal literature by accomplished authors that I have yet to read, so I'm really wasting my time on comics at that point.

In other words, I read superhero comics because the characters are special, and anything that makes those characters less special is not a positive aspect of that medium.

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Except if Mutants didn't exist Marvel would have created just as many new super heroes over the years because that's how franchises work.
I'm really not so sure about this. And theres no way we can prove or disprove it so I'll just move past it.

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Generally the purpose of threads like this is for people to discuss the topic and the choices people post. Otherwise it would just be a list.
Thats really what it should come down to. Lists.

If I make a list of every character I believe to be a valuable, interesting and unique part of the Marvel Universe, and then create a separate list of the same for the X-Men Universe... Those are two different franchises I'd be very interested in.

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Old 02-10-2013, 10:24 AM   #59
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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... I'm really wasting my time on comics at that point.

In other words, I read superhero comics because the characters are special, and anything that makes those characters less special is not a positive aspect of that medium.

And there's no way we can prove or disprove it so I'll just move past it.

If I make a list of every character I believe to be a valuable, interesting and unique part of the Marvel Universe, and then create a separate list of the same for the X-Men Universe... Those are two different franchises I'd be very interested in.
There's greatness in every medium... as there is crap.
Special... as in half priced or as in specialized... special is a broad and meaningless frame to judge things by.

Power pack's power come from a race of horse-men that can give powers to others... i think it proves that universe as a gazillion possibilities of creating special individuals. Then there is all the uber human programs that could end up in success, so on.

i would like to see them lists....

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Old 02-10-2013, 10:23 PM   #60
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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I think the biggest problem with Venom is that he's always been depicted as being either very clearly villainous with no goodness in him, or a pure Punisher type who just doesn't like Spider-Man. No one's actually gone for the full on middle ground with him. He can be someone who has a very strong and rigid set of ethics that he adheres to while also being obsessed with destroying Peter Parker's life and torturing him and the people around him. That kind of cognitive dissonance is interesting and hasn't really been explored with him.
Interesting point really, I always did want to see a moment discussing that. It would be interesting for Brock to save someone and then have a moment:

The person, a Spidey fan, is freaking out and confused as to why Venom, a known villain in the public eye is being "heroic." Venom is put off by this and questions the individual while also explaining his views, in his point of view, he's the good guy and just misunderstood.

Since he became Anti-Venom and forgave Pete, that type of thing went out the window of possibility, but now that he's
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Toxin
there's a possibility that Cullen Bunn could tackle that.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
At the end of Venom #30 He was shown back in New York. What he's been doing since being burned and forcibly rebonded with the Toxin symbiote is crack more than a bit. He's been killing loads of bad guys and has shown he has a sense of justice and a desire to wipe out evil. Though its unclear how he views Flash. He went looking for him at the end of #31, not knowing he's moved to Phili. Something in the calm way he was knocking on his door makes me wonder about his state of mind. He may want to help Flash, but may be warped because of a traumatized Toxin, or outright grow to hate him. It's hard to say at this point, and there's hints that something BIG is coming in ways of symbiotes and their safety. So that duality may be still possible.

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Old 02-10-2013, 10:31 PM   #61
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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Someone was. Me.
Exactly. You brought up a point that no one made and attacked it. That's a straw man argument for you.

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Old 02-11-2013, 12:01 AM   #62
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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There's greatness in every medium... as there is crap.
Special... as in half priced or as in specialized... special is a broad and meaningless frame to judge things by.

Power pack's power come from a race of horse-men that can give powers to others... i think it proves that universe as a gazillion possibilities of creating special individuals. Then there is all the uber human programs that could end up in success, so on.

i would like to see them lists....
well, i'd love to construct them lists... but even just thinking about it is daunting. There are so many great characters in each the X-Men universe and the Marvel Universe as a whole.

A good place to start would be the early days. It seems like as time goes on any new characters become more and more watered down. Not to say everything in the golden/silver ages are good. Cuz thats just false.

Those great classics though, written by talented modern writers, those are the ones I love.

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Old 02-11-2013, 12:10 AM   #63
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Except if Mutants didn't exist Marvel would have created just as many new super heroes over the years because that's how franchises work.



Generally the purpose of threads like this is for people to discuss the topic and the choices people post. Otherwise it would just be a list.

I thought it was to see who has a crappy opinion.

Not unlike the Unpopular opinion (Or whatever it was called) thread.

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Old 02-11-2013, 08:09 AM   #64
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I thought it was to see who has a crappy opinion.

Not unlike the Unpopular opinion (Or whatever it was called) thread.
What I said was the polite way of saying what you said.

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Old 02-11-2013, 08:24 AM   #65
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Theres a lot of em. None of them are huge characters. Thank god.

Specifically? Franklin Richards.

I've never liked X-Men to be a part of the MU. Thats not to say I dislike X-Men, I just don't think they fit properly into the universe as a whole and Franklin Richards is the biggest example of this. Or at least the biggest proof of this. His parents are Fantastic right? They are superheroes and they have unique powers. Wrong. Because of their son and mutants in general, those who are legitimately special become less special.

Which, is totally fine with me. Because I'd rather just keep them separate. The X-Men universe is great! It is a lot of fun and I love so many of the characters, I just prefer to pretend that the universes don't mix. Franklin Richards makes that difficult.
My problem with mutants is people hate them for having powers without having any reasonable means of knowing if non-mutant superheroes are not mutants and or having a really hypocritical stance against mutants while blithely trusting non-mutant metas.

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Old 02-11-2013, 08:36 AM   #66
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My problem with mutants is people hate them for having powers without having any reasonable means of knowing if non-mutant superheroes are not mutants and or having a really hypocritical stance against mutants while blithely trusting non-mutant metas.
Yes, exactly, because bigotry in the real world is never unreasonable or hypocritical.

Oh wait it always is.

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Old 02-11-2013, 01:47 PM   #67
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My problem with mutants is people hate them for having powers without having any reasonable means of knowing if non-mutant superheroes are not mutants and or having a really hypocritical stance against mutants while blithely trusting non-mutant metas.
Thats exactly why they make such great stories independent from the MU. The undertones of prejudice and intolerance make for great messages, its just far less impactful when the world is inconsistent with their hatred toward superhumans.

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Old 02-11-2013, 02:25 PM   #68
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I think it's much more impactful. Double standards and inconsistent treatment is a thing with bigotry in the real world.

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Old 02-11-2013, 05:10 PM   #69
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

Had this conversation before.

Mofo's don't wanna listen to reason. It's very simple. Bigots are hypocrites. A guy can hate black people, but his favorite musician is Michael Jackson. It's Illogical.

With Superheroes and mutants, it's just like that. Mutants are filthy, disgusting animals hell bent on the destruction and replacement of the human race, and superheroes are just men and women who, after extraordinary events, gained powers and choose to use them to help people.

Used to be human > Not human to begin with. Simple.

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Old 02-11-2013, 09:26 PM   #70
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

Even still. I'd prefer them separate. Its part of the reason I love the MCU. No obligatory mutant agenda.

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Old 02-11-2013, 09:30 PM   #71
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

Well, it's a good thing you don't run Marvel then.

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Old 02-11-2013, 11:21 PM   #72
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Well, it's a good thing you don't run Marvel then.
because otherwise the MCU would include X-Men? you've lost me.

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Old 02-11-2013, 11:33 PM   #73
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

Uhhh, I was talkin' about comics. This is the comics forum. WTF are YOU talkin' about?

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Old 02-12-2013, 01:47 PM   #74
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

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Had this conversation before.

Mofo's don't wanna listen to reason. It's very simple. Bigots are hypocrites. A guy can hate black people, but his favorite musician is Michael Jackson. It's Illogical.
Totally totally agree with that analogy!Oh lord of cadavers! Its like when you see racist KKK guys on television with a Michael jordan bulls jersey on ! I am like! Hahaha! whaaaaa the..... ???? But that's why they are racist to begin with! They make no kinda sense!
Carry on ! I just wanted to add my 2 cents! I used the other for bus fare!

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Old 02-12-2013, 01:51 PM   #75
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Default Re: What Character do you wish Marvel never created...

Alot of hatred and predjudice is often irrational and illogical.

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