The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > The Avengers > The Avengers Sequels

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-11-2013, 12:06 AM   #276
Dark Raven
The Gal from Themysicra
 
Dark Raven's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Tall and tanned and young and lovely
Posts: 21,752
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

In the UK if you talk about the Avengers it means something different from the Marvel comic. Everyone associates it with Steed and Mrs Peel - hence why it was renamed. The average moviegoer over here doesn't even know there is a Marvel team by that name. For all intents and purposes it is seen as just a big team up event movie. You can doubt all you like, but just ask any non comic fan over here.

Dark Raven is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 12:14 AM   #277
Mr. Dent
Banned User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 8,956
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

I wasn't talking about the UK I was specifically referring to you saying "a lot" of people aren't aware in the US the team is called "Avengers". That's like saying people don't know the X-Men are called the 'X-Men'.

Mr. Dent is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:21 AM   #278
Chewy
REDACTED
 
Chewy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,012
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
We're working under the assumption that TA2 pits them against Thanos, obviously. And if Thanos is the Big Bad for TA2, there's simply no way you could introduce him and the characters (good and bad) surrounding him in GOTG in 2014, then have him show up again less than a year later and not have the Guardians referenced again. They don't have to take up a lot of face time; this *is* an Avengers film, after all. But they should certainly be part of the proceedings in helping the Avengers find the Mad Titan's achilles heel.

Without the Guardians in play, the Avengers would be flying blind against Thanos.
Not if Iron Man goes up to space and encounters him, before returning to Earth for TA2

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Dent View Post
You're right, this is a movie, and that's why a dozen heroes works. If they were trying to go for a straight up adaptation of the comics then this movie would have at least 2 dozen heroes in it; instead they're going for a smaller, tighter event. I've already explain why having the Guardians in the film would work.
A dozen heroes doesn't work. Sorry. Even a half-dozen heroes led to Hawkeye not getting much characterization in the first film.

Audiences want more interplay between the Avengers themselves, not The Avengers: The Last Stand featuring 2 minute non-roles for a bunch of characters that were in the previous movies and a few characters that weren't

Chewy is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:37 AM   #279
jaqua99
....I need a horse!
 
jaqua99's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: dont you worry about that
Posts: 6,092
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimson King View Post
They already did it on EMH. Mar-Vell was a SHIELD scientist and Carol was assisting him. That entire storyline is basically a blueprint for what should happen with the SHIELD show. Since they're not going to directly interact with the Avengers or their villains, having SHIELD investigate a possible Kree threat is a perfect storyline to bring a new Avenger into the fold. Plus, Whedon already said he wants more females on the team in A2. Ms. Marvel is the best bet.

Coulson=Mar-vell

remember, I said it first :P

well actually..Jordanstine did lol. but still..totally believable

__________________
hi
jaqua99 is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:43 AM   #280
Mr. Dent
Banned User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 8,956
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy View Post
Not if Iron Man goes up to space and encounters him, before returning to Earth for TA2
I don't see how this solves anything.

Quote:
A dozen heroes doesn't work. Sorry. Even a half-dozen heroes led to Hawkeye not getting much characterization in the first film.

Audiences want more interplay between the Avengers themselves, not The Avengers: The Last Stand featuring 2 minute non-roles for a bunch of characters that were in the previous movies and a few characters that weren't
Wow, you just compared a dozen relavent characters to almost over 2 dozen that were in Last Stand, many of which were not only heroes but villains and had nothing to do intimately with the plot, which itself didn't have nearly as much development as the plot coming in A2 will have had. Your argument lost all credibility right there. Don't compare something like this to Last Stand if you want to make a legitimate argument.

What we're talking about with A2 is a movie that will have a good 12 or so heroes with one specific villain in Thanos. All of those characters will be relavent to the plot, which was built up over the course of several films, and don't all require to be the main focus of the entire film. Will some characters have to take a back seat to others? Yes, but that's not inherently a problem. Hawkeye is considered to have been shafted because he had no prior development to his involvement in Avengers whatsoever, and even he at least got his two moments in the film. Unlike Hawkeye, every single character will have had their time to shine in their own movies besides the Hulk and Hawkeye, and some characters like Groot and Rocket Racoon need no focus at all, and other like Drax and Gamora don't need any until they're actually confronting Thanos. It works, you're just not thinking very thoroughly about how it could because you're stuck on the knee-jerk reaction of "Last Stand and Spider-Man 3" when you here a movie involves more than 5 characters.

You use "interplay" as an argument but it doesn't hold in the slightest. By interplay you probably mean the group dynamics, but you don't have to have a film focused completely around that aspect to get it across. This movie will be just as much about the conflicts outside the team that tear them apart as it will be about their "interplay". And again, you don't have to intimately focus on every single character on the team to get the group nuances across.


Last edited by Mr. Dent; 02-11-2013 at 01:48 AM.
Mr. Dent is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:57 AM   #281
Chewy
REDACTED
 
Chewy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,012
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Protip: once you start ranting about credibility and legitimacy I stop reading, lol

Take care

Chewy is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 02:00 AM   #282
cherokeesam
SHIELD Director Coulson
 
cherokeesam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cherokee, NC
Posts: 12,047
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy View Post
Not if Iron Man goes up to space and encounters him, before returning to Earth for TA2
Unless IM winds up spending the better part of the GOTG movie as a guest star (god forbid; but the current issue of GOTG #1 in comics makes one wonder), then he's not going to be armed with any useful information or weapons or tools to use against Thanos.


Quote:
A dozen heroes doesn't work. Sorry. Even a half-dozen heroes led to Hawkeye not getting much characterization in the first film.
No, the fact that Hawkeye was unnecessarily mind****ed by Loki for over half of his scenes (for no purpose whatsoever) led to him not getting much characterization in the first film. Had he been given the same amount of time he actually had in the movie, but doing something useful as an actual hero and Avenger instead of as a Loki Zombie, he would've had ample time for a richer characterization and interplay.

Quote:
Audiences want more interplay between the Avengers themselves, not The Avengers: The Last Stand featuring 2 minute non-roles for a bunch of characters that were in the previous movies and a few characters that weren't
Mr. Dent said it better than I could. It's not the amount of heroes who are in a movie; it's the quality of their dialogue and characterization that makes them memorable. The Dirty Dozen did just fine, as did the Ocean's Eleven (Plus) films, The Wild Bunch, and other ensemble casts.

__________________
THE COTTON AVENGERS

...They move like slick cotton on oil.

---Echostation, 3/18/2014
cherokeesam is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 02:14 AM   #283
Hawkingbird
I want to be Kate Bishop
 
Hawkingbird's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: With the Hawkeyes
Posts: 5,733
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Raven View Post
In the UK if you talk about the Avengers it means something different from the Marvel comic. Everyone associates it with Steed and Mrs Peel - hence why it was renamed. The average moviegoer over here doesn't even know there is a Marvel team by that name. For all intents and purposes it is seen as just a big team up event movie. You can doubt all you like, but just ask any non comic fan over here.
I think that's changed now, certainly with the younger generation.

__________________
"Turkey sucks and you suck, and who made you boss?"
Hawkingbird is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 02:21 AM   #284
Chewy
REDACTED
 
Chewy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,012
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
1. Unless IM winds up spending the better part of the GOTG movie as a guest star (god forbid; but the current issue of GOTG #1 in comics makes one wonder), then he's not going to be armed with any useful information or weapons or tools to use against Thanos.

2. No, the fact that Hawkeye was unnecessarily mind****ed by Loki for over half of his scenes (for no purpose whatsoever) led to him not getting much characterization in the first film. Had he been given the same amount of time he actually had in the movie, but doing something useful as an actual hero and Avenger instead of as a Loki Zombie, he would've had ample time for a richer characterization and interplay.

3. Mr. Dent said it better than I could. It's not the amount of heroes who are in a movie; it's the quality of their dialogue and characterization that makes them memorable. The Dirty Dozen did just fine, as did the Ocean's Eleven (Plus) films, The Wild Bunch, and other ensemble casts.
1.Information, sure. We don't have to watch him learn stuff for him to have learned said stuff if he's in space for a while.

I don't really want a super awesome deus ex machina weapon that can defeat Thanos at the last second, I'm sure you don't either if you really think about it. Whether it comes from Iron Man or the Guardians or Squirrel Girl. Don't want.

2. Whedon said he gave Hawkeye the mind****ing subplot because the original, fleshed out story he gave Hawkeye left the script too long. Because there was too much to cover between 5 heroes and Nick Fury and Loki. Doubling that doesn't help.

3. It is the amount of heroes who are in the movie, when your characters are witty superheroes that the audience likes who are played by famous actors that didn't sign on to these movies so they could each have 6 lines of dialogue.

These characters aren't the Ocean's cast. Outside of Clooney, Pitt and Damon those characters were all caricatures who had a couple of funny scenes. And that's fine for those movies. I don't imagine Scarlett Johansson and Mark Ruffalo will be happy under those circumstances. Audiences, who liked the first movie specifically because the characters were so fully realized and characterized and explored, certainly won't be.

Chewy is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 03:54 AM   #285
Mr. Dent
Banned User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 8,956
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy View Post
Protip: once you start ranting about credibility and legitimacy I stop reading, lol

Take care
Protip: Don't give others protips on how to debate you. It looks silly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hawkingbird View Post
I think that's changed now, certainly with the younger generation.
Exactly. Most people know the team is called the Avengers. If nothing else it's common sense.

Mr. Dent is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 07:18 AM   #286
herolee10
S.W. Mourner
 
herolee10's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 16,417
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy View Post
1.Information, sure. We don't have to watch him learn stuff for him to have learned said stuff if he's in space for a while.

I don't really want a super awesome deus ex machina weapon that can defeat Thanos at the last second, I'm sure you don't either if you really think about it. Whether it comes from Iron Man or the Guardians or Squirrel Girl. Don't want.

2. Whedon said he gave Hawkeye the mind****ing subplot because the original, fleshed out story he gave Hawkeye left the script too long. Because there was too much to cover between 5 heroes and Nick Fury and Loki. Doubling that doesn't help.

3. It is the amount of heroes who are in the movie, when your characters are witty superheroes that the audience likes who are played by famous actors that didn't sign on to these movies so they could each have 6 lines of dialogue.

These characters aren't the Ocean's cast. Outside of Clooney, Pitt and Damon those characters were all caricatures who had a couple of funny scenes. And that's fine for those movies. I don't imagine Scarlett Johansson and Mark Ruffalo will be happy under those circumstances. Audiences, who liked the first movie specifically because the characters were so fully realized and characterized and explored, certainly won't be.
Curious, what was Whedon's original plan with Hawkeye's character?

herolee10 is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 08:39 AM   #287
Crimson King
Superhero Novelista
 
Crimson King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,918
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by jaqua99 View Post
Coulson=Mar-vell

remember, I said it first :P

well actually..Jordanstine did lol. but still..totally believable
I could accept that far more easily than I could Coulson-Vision. :vomit:

__________________
kingwrites.com // @kingmatte
Crimson King is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 08:40 AM   #288
cherokeesam
SHIELD Director Coulson
 
cherokeesam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cherokee, NC
Posts: 12,047
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by herolee10 View Post
Curious, what was Whedon's original plan with Hawkeye's character?
Yeah, I'd like to hear that, too. I loved the Avengers, and god bless Joss Whedon and all, but he simply dicked over Hawkeye, and it sounds like he's making excuses. "I wanted to make a cool story arc for your character, Renner, but it would take too long, so I'm just going to make you a mindless zombie slave to the villain for half the movie instead. Isn't that better?"

__________________
THE COTTON AVENGERS

...They move like slick cotton on oil.

---Echostation, 3/18/2014
cherokeesam is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 08:43 AM   #289
Crimson King
Superhero Novelista
 
Crimson King's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,918
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

IIRC, he had a lot of backstory that involved Black Widow and there was a relationship there that would've been fleshed out more.

__________________
kingwrites.com // @kingmatte
Crimson King is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 08:52 AM   #290
SuperSAINT
Side-Kick
 
SuperSAINT's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 885
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by herolee10 View Post
Curious, what was Whedon's original plan with Hawkeye's character?
Didn't this come from Joss' commentary?

Quote:
In the original script, there was a beautiful backstory for Hawkeye and he was on the team from the beginning. Unfortunately, their simply wasn’t enough time to put it into the story, so the brainwashing plotline was created to give Renner something interesting to play with the character. Whedon was pretty sad that they couldn’t do more. He also never got tired of watching Hawkeye shoot things while looking the other way.

SuperSAINT is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 10:34 AM   #291
Whiskey Tango
2008 ~ 2014
 
Whiskey Tango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The South
Posts: 21,355
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Dent View Post
Protip: Don't give others protips on how to debate you. It looks silly.
protip: Don't try to turn everything into a debate. This isn't high school.

__________________
"When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back."
~ The Road of Kings

2007-2008 SHH Pro Football Pick 'Em Champion
Whiskey Tango is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 12:34 PM   #292
Mr. Dent
Banned User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 8,956
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiskey Tango View Post
protip: Don't try to turn everything into a debate. This isn't high school.
If you don't want to turn it into a debate then you should take your own advice and simply not reply. Everything solved. If you reply then I'm going to respond.

If you're putting your opinions out there then they're free game to scrutinize. As you said, this is not high school.

Mr. Dent is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 12:42 PM   #293
Whiskey Tango
2008 ~ 2014
 
Whiskey Tango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The South
Posts: 21,355
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Then I suggest you follow your own advice, while you're busy advising me to follow mine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Dent View Post
Protip: Don't give others protips on how to debate you.

__________________
"When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back."
~ The Road of Kings

2007-2008 SHH Pro Football Pick 'Em Champion
Whiskey Tango is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 12:44 PM   #294
Chewy
REDACTED
 
Chewy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,012
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Yeah, I'd like to hear that, too. I loved the Avengers, and god bless Joss Whedon and all, but he simply dicked over Hawkeye, and it sounds like he's making excuses. "I wanted to make a cool story arc for your character, Renner, but it would take too long, so I'm just going to make you a mindless zombie slave to the villain for half the movie instead. Isn't that better?"
Well if he had a 300 page script and had to cut something it's not really an excuse, more of an unfortunate reality about the constraints of film

I thought it was a fine intro to Hawky, and as long as we get a better look at him in this movie it's a non-issue.

Chewy is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:34 PM   #295
cherokeesam
SHIELD Director Coulson
 
cherokeesam's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2011
Location: Cherokee, NC
Posts: 12,047
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy View Post
Well if he had a 300 page script and had to cut something it's not really an excuse, more of an unfortunate reality about the constraints of film

I thought it was a fine intro to Hawky, and as long as we get a better look at him in this movie it's a non-issue.
Constraints be damned. If Hawkeye had all of, what 15 minutes' screen time in Avengers (seriously, somebody counted), and about 10 of those were spent under Loki's spell, Joss screwed up. The only one Loki needed was Selvig; he didn't need Hawkeye. Those 10 minutes could've then been spent on Hawkeye doing Hawkeye-ish and Avenger-ish things, and Clint would've had at least *a little* more of a presence.

__________________
THE COTTON AVENGERS

...They move like slick cotton on oil.

---Echostation, 3/18/2014
cherokeesam is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:38 PM   #296
Whiskey Tango
2008 ~ 2014
 
Whiskey Tango's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: The South
Posts: 21,355
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Constraints be damned. If Hawkeye had all of, what 15 minutes' screen time in Avengers (seriously, somebody counted), and about 10 of those were spent under Loki's spell, Joss screwed up. The only one Loki needed was Selvig; he didn't need Hawkeye. Those 10 minutes could've then been spent on Hawkeye doing Hawkeye-ish and Avenger-ish things, and Clint would've had at least *a little* more of a presence.
Yes, but then we wouldn't have been treated to COMPUTER HACKING ARROWS and the world would be a lesser place because of it.

__________________
"When I was a fighting-man, the kettle-drums they beat,
The people scattered gold-dust before my horses feet;
But now I am a great king, the people hound my track
With poison in my wine-cup, and daggers at my back."
~ The Road of Kings

2007-2008 SHH Pro Football Pick 'Em Champion
Whiskey Tango is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 01:44 PM   #297
Chewy
REDACTED
 
Chewy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 13,012
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by cherokeesam View Post
Constraints be damned. If Hawkeye had all of, what 15 minutes' screen time in Avengers (seriously, somebody counted), and about 10 of those were spent under Loki's spell, Joss screwed up. The only one Loki needed was Selvig; he didn't need Hawkeye. Those 10 minutes could've then been spent on Hawkeye doing Hawkeye-ish and Avenger-ish things, and Clint would've had at least *a little* more of a presence.
And then both Widow and Hawkeye's specific emotional motivations in regards to both Loki and the third act battle aren't as neatly and cleanly explained to the audience.

Look, I love Hawkeye. He's my favorite Avenger from the comics. But that storyline worked for the movie and the characters. As long as we get sassy douchebag Hawkeye this time around I don't see the issue.

Chewy is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 02:50 PM   #298
I'm Venom
Anti-Hero
 
I'm Venom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Burlington, NC
Posts: 1,580
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chewy
I honestly have no idea why anyone thinks all of the Guardians will be showing up here. It makes a heck of a lot more sense to introduce a single new character in Avengers 2 than in does to take a half dozen characters from the Guardians movie and stuff them into Avengers 2.

This is a movie, not a comic. It's a major disservice both to this film and those characters to shove them all in this movie, instead of allowing the Avengers themselves time to continue to grow and develop as an ensemble.
I like the idea of Thanos being introduced before The Avengers 2, but I don't want the Guardians in the film, and I think you're right.

I'm Venom is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 03:32 PM   #299
Son of Coul
Not 100% A Dick
 
Son of Coul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 4,583
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

I think having Stark meet up with the Guardians in the end of GOTG will be a sufficient way to keep the GOTG out of sight for TA2. It actually works really nicely. For people unfamiliar with the solo films, going from the first movie to the sequel it wouldn't come as much of a surprise that Stark went space exploring between the two films and during his travels had learned of Thanos.

Son of Coul is offline  
Old 02-11-2013, 03:33 PM   #300
Mr. Dent
Banned User
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Jacksonville, FL
Posts: 8,956
Default Re: The Avengers 2! The Official News and Speculation Thread - Part 1

Quote:
Originally Posted by Whiskey Tango View Post
Then I suggest you follow your own advice, while you're busy advising me to follow mine.
That makes no sense. I didn't give you a protip on how to debate me, I said if you didn't want to debate then don't reply. Very simple concept. Instead of trying to defend someone who is capable of doing so themselves you should stay on topic and reply to the issue at hand that started the debate, which Chewy was not able to adequately argue his point for.

Mr. Dent is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:50 PM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.