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Old 02-11-2013, 02:33 AM   #726
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

please elaborate what did tdkr do that makes a shared universe not plausible

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Old 02-11-2013, 03:10 AM   #727
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

Once again: how would you tie in Nolans universe into this new one after the ending of TDKR? Either Bruce Wayne would be old as **** or JGL would be in his place as Batman.
There really is no decent way to tie in the two universes without having either a super old Bruce Wayne with next to no longevity or someone other than Bruce Wayne under the mantle.
Either way you're putting yourself in a corner. There's absolutely zero reason why you can't just reboot the franchise and start over completely anew in 2015 if you make it something worth seeing.
People really have a problem letting go of the Nolanverse but once again: it's done.
I understand the love for it but realize that WB is already on to the next thing, they aren't going to do that.
No I'm not 100% sure that what I'm saying is going to pan out, but I'm so confident I will eat my shoe the day it's announced Bale will appear in a JL movie in the near future.

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Old 02-11-2013, 03:10 AM   #728
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

Regardless of what is likely to happen, people can still talk about what they'd like to see..

I think TDK and MoS and the JL movie all in the same universe would be great.

Unless MoS does something to clearly establish that it's the start, and that Baleman isn't out there, I don't think it will feel like it is.

so either that, or the JL movie, whenever it comes, starts off the JLverse.


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Old 02-11-2013, 05:31 AM   #729
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

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So MoS is your ideal movie, tonally, to set up the feel of the universe?

You sure you're not just saying that because that's what we have?

How do you picture a Flash movie then?

Also, I can't imagine that the next Batman movies will feel more in line with MoS than the TDK does (Both are Nolan/Syncopy productions, Zimmer score, similar titles, both are considered the 'realistic takes', etc). I feel like the GA already views MoS and TDK movies as being 'together' or whatever, despite the fact that Superman is an alien and there were no aliens in TDK.

I could be wrong though, maybe simply the inclusion of the supernatural in the next Batman movies will be more than enough to make it feel more in line with MoS than the TDK movies do.
My preference is no JL film at all and for MoS and other characters to be given their own universes to control separately. But given that's more than likely not going to happen if WB are going to go ahead with a shared universe then MoS as a starting point is the lesser of two evils.

Here's main reasons why Nolan's Batman cannot work in a JL film.

1) Bruce Wayne is no longer Batman. His story is over.
2) What ambiguous supernatural elements that were possible as what was stated by Ra's in Begins are taken away from the series in the next two installments, especially Rises which confirms Ra's is truly dead.
3) The three movies explored the world outside of Gotham, this nonsense I've heard about us only ever seeing things from the Gotham perspective is crap. Super powered being would have come to Gotham's aid.

You can't just combine two movie universes just because their origins are from the same comic book company, hell they've just discarded the JL script, don't you think that MoS originally being in its own universe may have had something to with a page one rewrite? It's not that simple to just put two characters from films together that were never meant to share the screen. If you're going to have them on screen together they have to be written for that movie and that universe, otherwise you're doing a disservice to the characters and doing nothing more than leeching off a successful franchise. The easiest and best solution is for a JL film to have a Superman and a Batman build for that universe. Nolan's Batman doesn't belong with superheroes.

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Old 02-11-2013, 07:20 AM   #730
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

Yes! JMC you once again prove that a reboot of Batman is the way to go!

I'll outline the my reasons why.

1. Unless metahumans appear after the events of TDKR, which means Batman will be the oldest superhero in the JL, there is no way a superhero would let a nuclear bomb be in the hands of a supervillain in Gotham. How long was Bruce in that pit anyway?

If Superman has already come out in the same time, he simply would have scanned for the right truck, pick it up and throw it far enough for the triggers signal to not reach the bomb.

That didn't happen simply because there were not any superheroes in that universe.

2. You can't have Bale as Batman simply because he is too old. They will have to find an actor in nearly the same age as Cavill. Do you want to start JL with Bale and have another actor in the sequel? That scenario will be disastrous!

3. Although Nolan tried to ground his Batman in reality as best he can, notwithstanding glider, Batpod and the Bat.; we had a pretty human Baman. By that I mean, his physical ity did not include the acrobatics we see in the comics.

4. It would be pretty easy to have gone the shared universe in the Dark Knight trilogy. A newpaper report on any hero. A news report on television. Business dealings with Lexcorp or Queen Industies. The reason they did not go that route? Simply because that reality did not have any other heroes or those elements!

Now this is where my opinion on MOS as the jumping off point for the JL movie differs. We already have an alien doing impossible things, why stop there? A few simple scenes can lead to the other heroes. They can show a scene like a period setting where women are in togas reacting to the appearance of Superman as a sign that Diana is ready to leave the island. How? Magic? Crystal ball? Oracles? Simple enough. Could just take 5 minutes of the film. Doesn't even need to show Diana herself!

Scenes of the events in Metropolis are seen by a CSI, a test pilot or a space police on his magical ring and a vigilante in his cave.

I really think it can be done. Just don't know by whom!?

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Old 02-11-2013, 07:43 AM   #731
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

I know this is kind of cheating, and spamming to try to get a good answer...but can anyone recommend me some Darkseid related reading material given that he's supposed to be the villain? I'm very familiar with him, but mostly from his animated appearances.

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Old 02-11-2013, 09:39 AM   #732
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

Jack Kirby's "Fourth World".

Jim Starlin's "Cosmic Odyssey".

John Ostrander's "Legends".

Grant Morrison's "Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle".

Grant Morrison's "Final Crisis".

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Old 02-11-2013, 09:48 AM   #733
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

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Jack Kirby's "Fourth World".

Jim Starlin's "Cosmic Odyssey".

John Ostrander's "Legends".

Grant Morrison's "Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle".

Grant Morrison's "Final Crisis".
Thanks.

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Old 02-11-2013, 09:53 AM   #734
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

The way that I would imagine a shared universe launching from TDK series would be to take place after. Yes, I think that Batman should have been first. This makes it more ground-breaking when an alien is introduced into the 'real world.'

By leading with Batman, he would have been able to have his solo career against mob bosses complete and move on. It essentially gives him space to be the Batman that we're used to seeing.

Enter Superman to take up the 'symbol' mantle. He takes what Batman did in Gotham to the world. Bale's Batman is still young enough to take part in this stage, but he won't be compared directly to what Superman is doing because they happen at different times.

After Superman has been introduced, we can then implement the next stage, the Justice League. This fleshes out the rest of the DCU.

I understand the 'move on from Bale' argument, but this is how I see it in my mind and love the idea of a longer timeline. I don't like the idea of every hero on the planet being introduced at the same time.

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Old 02-11-2013, 10:11 AM   #735
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

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Jack Kirby's "Fourth World".

Jim Starlin's "Cosmic Odyssey".

John Ostrander's "Legends".

Grant Morrison's "Seven Soldiers: Mister Miracle".

Grant Morrison's "Final Crisis".
Blake Batman: Wayne's World.

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Old 02-11-2013, 10:30 AM   #736
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

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please elaborate what did tdkr do that makes a shared universe not plausible
whoo whoo whoo fun police!

Gonna start handing out tickets if you keep questioning things.

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Old 02-11-2013, 01:31 PM   #737
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

Schumacer and Burton-verses after B&R could have continued and the Raimi-verse after Spiderman 3. However, it didnt happen , and in those cases they actually did have sequels in development. In this case WB has stated that JLA would be a reboot for Batman , and after JLA their would be a rebooted solo Batman film in 2017, so to me the arguement about whether if the Batman and justice league is gonna be rebooted is moot imo.

However, the arguement about whether the JLA Batman should be a rebooted version is another thing which is subject to taste and preference. Had Nolan not ended TDKR is such a way that made it really tough for another filmmaker to make Bruce Wayne Batman again , then I would be open to it.

However Bruce is no longer Batman in that world and Nolan purposely wrote him into a corner that would be hard to get out of . Blake on the other hand could be Batman in JLA but he doesn't work imo because right off the bat , so to speak, you limit what could be done in his solo films in terms of villans.

Characters that WB would want to re-vist , and know bring in audiences such as Joker, Two Face, Catwoman, Ras, and even Bane, would have to be ignored and instead theyd have to go to Riddler, Penguin, Mr Freeze, Mad Hatter etc. Bringing back the crowd pleasers would mean retcons and convoluted explanations.

Plus they're probably gonna wanna go with a younger actor anyway who isn't as big as Bale or Levitt and sign them on to several films. So from a creative stand point and can understand why WB wanted to reboot and allowed Nolan to end his trilogy the way he did.

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Old 02-11-2013, 03:27 PM   #738
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

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please elaborate what did tdkr do that makes a shared universe not plausible
The main reasons are the fact that Bruce quits and leaves Gotham at the end of the movie, the unnecessary 8 year timeskip which would make Bruce way older than Superman and the rest of the JL and that would be stupid, and the fact that we learn in TDKR that his body is completely worn out. Those are the main factors that killed it for me.

There are also a lot of minor factors that I won't address because then I'll go on a tangent about how TDKR completely ignores and contradicts many things from BB and TDK and I don't want to do that because everyone will go off topic then and will talk about nothing but TDKR until a mod shows up and tells everyone to get back on topic. lol

And no, it isn't completely not plausible to have a shared universe with the Nolan films canon. You can still force the idea somehow by having John Blake as Batman or by having Bruce be the Nick Fury of the team like some people suggested but those oltions should not be even considered IMO. Whatever happens with Nolan's Batman after TDKR is not Batman and it is not what should be seen in a long-awaited JL movie that features the top 2 most iconic superheroes standing side by side. A JL movie with Bruce as Batman and as we know him is the real deal. Anything else will simply be nowhere as good to the potential that this thing has regardless of how much effort they put into it and that is a fact we should all be aware of.

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Old 02-11-2013, 03:38 PM   #739
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

Double post


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Old 02-11-2013, 03:56 PM   #740
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

I still don't see why you can't introduce aliens after TDKR.

I mean, there had to be some point in the comics where there wasn't aliens, and then there were when they introduced them into the story. So why can't we have that in the movie?

I'd love to see a brief scene (whether it be in MoS or JL) of Bruce in his European home watching the breaking news about the existence of the alien Superman.

I also don't see how this tarnishes TDK movies either.
Does the revelation that Rocket Raccoon exists in the Marvel movie universe retroactively make Iron Man 1 worse?


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Old 02-11-2013, 04:05 PM   #741
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

triple post


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Old 02-11-2013, 04:08 PM   #742
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

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I still don't see why you can't introduce aliens after TDKR.

I mean, there had to be some point in the comics where there wasn't aliens, and then there were when they introduced them into the story. So why can't we have that in the movie?

I'd love to see a brief scene (whether it be in MoS or JL) of Bruce in his European home watching the breaking news about the existence of the alien Superman.

I also don't see how this tarnishes TDK movies either.
Does the revelation that Rocket Raccoon exists in the Marvel movie universe retroactively make Iron Man 1 worse?
See my post from above.

That and the fact that Bale's Batman lacks a lot of the assets Batman requires in a JL situation.

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Old 02-11-2013, 04:39 PM   #743
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

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See my post from above.

That and the fact that Bale's Batman lacks a lot of the assets Batman requires in a JL situation.
The money, the fighting abilities, a healthy body, Sherlock Holmes level smarts are all nothing, the will is everything!!

...The will to bring the world's heroes together.

People need dramatic examples to inspire hope, to show the people of Earth that their world does not belong to hostile alien forces and the corrupt.

As men they're flesh and blood, they can corrupted or destroyed, but as a symbol, as a symbol they can be everlasting.

And what symbol does.. Bruce Wayne propose?

A team. The symbol of the Justice League.


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Old 02-11-2013, 04:48 PM   #744
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I would make MOS and TDK in the same universe. Hold off on a JLA trilogy until way down the road.

I think Batman/Superman teamup against Luthor and somebody else could be enough to get TDK Batman out of retirement. It would be a one shot deal. Have Bruce Wayne "back from the dead" the majority of the movie as a dude rebuilding his fasad at the now liquidated Wayne Enterprises. Batman maybe the last 30-45 minutes or so, so it doesn't come off as a gimmick. Once Superman realizes he cannot win alone, Batman comes back in.

You can kill Batman off, and then audiences are forced to accept a reboot. Either that, or you can continue the Batman story with characters like Robin/Blake and Batwoman, but Batman would not be involved, and that isn't a money maker.

Snyder never intended MoS to tie in with JLA. It just had to be the case after the Avengers, when it was never the case at all. I still don't think it has to be the case. Not until the other characters prove they can carry a franchise, Superman included.

So it is not neccessary they continue Batman's story after the TDKR. I just think it works as a one shot deal and a crowd pleaser; just what Avengers was at the time it was concocted.


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Old 02-11-2013, 04:49 PM   #745
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

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Originally Posted by FeedOnATreeFrog View Post
The money, the fighting abilities, a healthy body, Sherlock Holmes level smarts are nothing, the will is everything!!

...The will to bring the world's heroes together.

People need dramatic examples to inspire hope, to show the people of Earth that their world does not belong to hostile alien forces and the corrupt.

As men they're flesh and blood, they can corrupted or destroyed, but as a symbol, as a symbol they can be everlasting.

And what symbol does.. Bruce Wayne propose?

A team. The symbol of the Justice League.
Wait…what are you saying? The Bruce Wayne faking his death provides a symbol to the rest of the members of the Justice League? Doesn’t the world think he’s dead at the end of TDKR?

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Old 02-11-2013, 04:56 PM   #746
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Wait…what are you saying? The Bruce Wayne faking his death provides a symbol to the rest of the members of the Justice League? Doesn’t the world think he’s dead at the end of TDKR?
Unless he has plastic surgery, he has no hope of hiding that. He will be recognized. He has no money left to hide away and stay underground forever. And why would Catwoman want to be with a guy that remains a recluse for the rest of his life? He will get caught by a reporter at some point. You can't just disappear with a device that removes Bruce Wayne from existence.

And people will eventually put two and two together and trace him back to Batman. So Batman isn't dead afterall.

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Old 02-11-2013, 05:25 PM   #747
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

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Originally Posted by FeedOnATreeFrog View Post
The money, the fighting abilities, a healthy body, Sherlock Holmes level smarts are nothing, the will is everything!!

...The will to bring the world's heroes together.

People need dramatic examples to inspire hope, to show the people of Earth that their world does not belong to hostile alien forces and the corrupt.

As men they're flesh and blood, they can corrupted or destroyed, but as a symbol, as a symbol they can be everlasting.

And what symbol does.. Bruce Wayne propose?

A team. The symbol of the Justice League.
First of all, you ignored all my major points. As I said before, see my reply to Project862006 for all the other reasons to why Nolan's Batman shouldn't be part of a shared universe.

Second, he has no money left. He gave it away to Alfred and Blake. He's not a billionaire anymore.

Third, how do you feel about all the other JL members being in their prime while Bruce needs a leg brace in order to be in his prime?

Fourth, Sherlock Holmes detective skills are EVERYTHING. That is what makes Batman needed in the JL to begin with. Many normal people in real life would have the will to fight against a huge threat. That doesn't mean they can. And Batman is no ordinary man.

Fifth, the way you just described your pitch for how to bring Bruce back sounds very out of character. That is something the Batman of the comics wouldn't do. He is the outsider of the team. He doesn't fully trust his fellow superheroes. He is the least likely team member (going by the original 7 line-up) to be the one that brings the team together.

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Old 02-11-2013, 05:49 PM   #748
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Default Re: Justice League: News and Speculation - Part 2

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Wait…what are you saying? The Bruce Wayne faking his death provides a symbol to the rest of the members of the Justice League? Doesn’t the world think he’s dead at the end of TDKR?
The symbol is the team, The Justice League.

It gives the people of Earth a little bit of hope, letting them sleep at night, knowing that the world's heroes are working together to protect them from any forces out in the universe who intend to bring them harm.

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Old 02-11-2013, 05:51 PM   #749
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The symbol is the team, The Justice League.

It gives the people of Earth a little bit of hope, letting them sleep at night, knowing that the world's heroes are working together to protect them from any forces out in the universe who intend to bring them harm.
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Old 02-11-2013, 05:58 PM   #750
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First of all, you ignored all my major points. As I said before, see my reply to Project862006 for all the other reasons to why Nolan's Batman shouldn't be part of a shared universe.

Second, he has no money left. He gave it away to Alfred and Blake. He's not a billionaire anymore.

Third, how do you feel about all the other JL members being in their prime while Bruce needs a leg brace in order to be in his prime?

Fourth, Sherlock Holmes detective skills are EVERYTHING. That is what makes Batman needed in the JL to begin with. Many normal people in real life would have the will to fight against a huge threat. That doesn't mean they can. And Batman is no ordinary man.
No man, the will is everything. Just as crazy old Ra's said.

He doesn't need money, a healthy fighting body, Hawking's level smarts or anything, only the will (and the idea I suppose) to do what's necessary. The will to give Earth the team of heroes it needs.

Quote:
Fifth, the way you just described your pitch for how to bring Bruce back sounds very out of character. That is something the Batman of the comics wouldn't do. He is the outsider of the team. He doesn't fully trust his fellow superheroes. He is the least likely team member (going by the original 7 line-up) to be the one that brings the team together.
Definitely out of character from the comics/show.

But Bruce Wayne hasn't shown an unwillingness to work with others in Nolan's universe. He works with Gordon, Selina Kyle, Blake, etc.

You could still have him not trust his fellow superheroes though. Perhaps that's a part of the symbol of the League. When I said the symbol would show that Earth's superhumans are banding together to defend Earth, it also means that they are protecting the Earth from the individual members. Instead of there being 7 superhumans out in the wild that the public don't trust and aren't sure which nations they protect etc, Bruce brings them together to let the world know that they are on the same side, and that they all fight for the same cause together.

Again, he doesn't need money, a healthy fighting body, etc, only the will to do what's necessary. The 'will' to protect the Earth from this emerging phenomena of aliens and superhumans, both villains and 'heroes' (Superman).
This way, Bruce knows that the rest of the team can deal with another member if they ever go rogue. He can also secretly keep the only Kryptonite handy to take care of Superman if he needed to.


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