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Old 02-12-2013, 10:37 PM   #151
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Talia was an ex-member? When did she leave?
She wasn't there when Bruce was training with Ra's. In fact, Ra's would've mentioned her if she was still part of the group, especially sense Ra's was planning on Bruce to "lead these men".

They made no mention in TDKR that she was a part of the group when Bruce was training with Ra's. Therefore, we assume that she left with Bane during the events of BB.

In fact, this is a major plot hole in my opinion that Nolan's team overlooked. I think it was lazy on their end to just throw her character in the movie when they clearly didn't anticipated it after BB or even TDK.


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Old 02-12-2013, 10:44 PM   #152
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Christopher Nolan said it was important for the League of Shadows to return, so yes, they are the League of Shadows. The League were shown in the flashbacks in TDKR to be a bunch of gunmen. The gunmen in Batman Begins at the monastery wore the same red scarves that the League members wore in The Dark Knight Rises. Bruce Wayne was never supposed to be Ra's successor, he was supposed to be Ra's' right-hand man out in front in the attack on Gotham. That's what the movie says.
I guess it's how you look at it. Yes, they wore the same garb as the guys in BB, but it doesn't mean they are the real "LOS". Just like people were dressing up as "Batman" in TDK. Are they the real Batman? No.

So, I still don't think it's Ra's's LOS. I think it's more along the line of Bruce's actions have come back to haunt him. That is what I think Nolan means.

Finally, Ra's tells Bruce in at his birthday party he is so disappointed because Bruce was his "greatest student". So you're telling me that he wouldn't want Bruce to take over?

But if Nolan were to say that this was the same LOS as in BB, then I'm in the minority because I don't see many similarities. Also as I wrote in the post above, if Talia was in the real LOS, where was she during BB? This was the first plot hole I noticed and was one reason why I was hoping Talia was just a rumor. They should've left the LOS alone as Bruce defeated them in BB. Also, all Ra's says to Bruce is that "my wife and daughter were taken from me". They should've left it at that. Now we're confused as to what was going on with Talia when Ra's was training Bruce? We certainly know she wasn't going to ditch Bane as he was her "protector".

One more thing, in BB, the LOS does their thing behind the scenes. In TDKR, they are front in center. Too many differences, in my opinion.


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Old 02-12-2013, 10:51 PM   #153
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Well it certainly didn't feel like the LOS in TDKR.
I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.

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Old 02-12-2013, 10:52 PM   #154
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

I think you already answered your own question there Rainmaker as to where Talia was during BB, cause I had the same interpretation of her leaving after her Ra's ex-communicated Bane.

I personally lean towards the idea of the LOS in Rises being a mixture of what's left of Ra's LOS and Bane's mercenaries (plus new recruits from within Gotham who aren't actual members). An figurative uprising of evil from various corners of the world.

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Old 02-12-2013, 10:58 PM   #155
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic or not.
I'm deadly serious.

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Old 02-12-2013, 11:04 PM   #156
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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I'm deadly serious.
Why so....yeah, you probably saw that one coming.

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Old 02-12-2013, 11:06 PM   #157
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

Well if it's not the real League, it's another group that also believes in the same thing that calls themselves the same thing......so...it's basically the same thing.

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Old 02-12-2013, 11:22 PM   #158
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Well if it's not the real League, it's another group that also believes in the same thing that calls themselves the same thing......so...it's basically the same thing.
So the guy that dressed up as Batman (Brian, who was killed by the Joker) was the "real batman" because he believed in the same thing?

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Old 02-12-2013, 11:25 PM   #159
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

Regardless of the actual manpower behind it, there at least was an al Ghul involved in the proceedings. I wouldn't say the LOS were impostors or anything like that in TDKR. I would say the League of Shadows morphed into something even more dangerous and destructive, with an added fire and purpose.

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Old 02-12-2013, 11:30 PM   #160
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Regardless of the actual manpower behind it, there at least was an al Ghul involved in the proceedings. I wouldn't say the LOS were impostors or anything like that in TDKR. I would say the League of Shadows morphed into something even more dangerous and destructive, with an added fire and purpose.
Yes, I can agree with that. However, I just can't get over how Talia is in charge with Bane?

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Old 02-12-2013, 11:34 PM   #161
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Post Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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So the guy that dressed up as Batman (Brian, who was killed by the Joker) was the "real batman" because he believed in the same thing?
If Brian believed in the same things Bruce did, was able to accomplish as much/more than Batman did, and if he was the same level of obstacle for criminals, then yes, in the eyes of criminals he'd be the same thing as Batman to them.

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Old 02-12-2013, 11:37 PM   #162
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Yes, I can agree with that. However, I just can't get over how Talia is in charge with Bane?
Well maybe she's the rightful heir.

I imagine she turned away from the League and left (due to Ra's treatment of Bane). I don't think the League cast her out, which seems to be what you're thinking. She turned away from league, they didn't turn away from her, banishing her, never to return or whatever.

And when Ra's died, she felt the need to come back, exact vengeance, etc. They welcomed her back. Simple.


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Old 02-12-2013, 11:41 PM   #163
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Well maybe she's the rightful heir.

I imagine she turned away from the League and left (due to Ra's treatment of Bane), instead of the League casting her out, which seems to be what your suggested.
Read what I wrote again, I said she left with Bane. But then again, we don't know because it's not explained. Ra's could've kicked both of them out.

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Old 02-12-2013, 11:42 PM   #164
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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If Brian believed in the same things Bruce did, was able to accomplish as much/more than Batman did, and if he was the same level of obstacle for criminals, then yes, in the eyes of criminals he'd be the same thing as Batman to them.
Fair enough.

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Old 02-12-2013, 11:48 PM   #165
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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And when Ra's died, she felt the need to come back, exact vengeance, etc. They welcomed her back. Simple.
That's what she did. But it's frustrating because of the plot hole in BB. Why wasn't there a mention of her in TDKR as a BB flashback? It probably was because it would then be too obvious that Talia would be the surprise villan.

I guess you can look at it just like the mob did with the Joker. Batman foiled the LOS's plan and killed their leader. They just said "screw it" and let Bane and Talia do their thing.

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Old 02-12-2013, 11:55 PM   #166
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

I see it more like Talia and the League turned to Bane and let him do his thing, but I agree that there's an analogy to TDK/the mob and Joker in there.

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Old 02-13-2013, 12:06 AM   #167
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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That's what she did. But it's frustrating because of the plot hole in BB. Why wasn't there a mention of her in TDKR as a BB flashback? It probably was because it would then be too obvious that Talia would be the surprise villan.
Sure it would have been cool.

As an explanation, maybe Ra's in BB didn't want to bring up the daughter who hates him and left the league because Ra's excommunicated her protector and friend.

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Old 02-13-2013, 12:11 AM   #168
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

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Sure it would have been cool.

As an explanation, maybe Ra's in BB didn't want to bring up the daughter who hates him and left the league because Ra's excommunicated her protector and friend.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that there would've been a lot less confusion had she been left out of TDKR. I'm sure she was never intended in the series when they wrote BB. I would've liked to see what direction they would've gone in had Heath been here today.

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Old 02-13-2013, 12:30 AM   #169
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

If I can be a conspiracy theorist for a moment, I always thought it was kind of interesting that they list Talia as Ra's daughter in his bio on the BB special features. The bios were meant to be for the in-movie characters, not just random trivia about their comic book roots. Nolan is known to be pretty involved with what goes on his DVDs.

I also thought the rumors of Nolan being upset about the Justice League: Mortal film because it featured Talia trying to avenge her father's death interesting as well.

Not saying they had it planned all along, but it could have been something they were toying with in the back of their minds, or something they wanted to have the option to do if they saw fit.

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Old 02-13-2013, 01:20 PM   #170
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

Bane is basically a setup of a character that gets lost in his own loop hole. He really had no plan, other than do whatever Talia wanted; and that called for escaping from the Pit with Talia and being trained to become a member of the LOS. Later on, when Ra's gets an idea that he's a bit of a rage monster with zero control and banishes him from the League.

Meanwhile, I guess Bane does practically nothing between his banishment and the events following after Batman Begins until Talia finds out her father dies and calls upon Bane to be a mysterious plot device for her plan. The movie implies that Bane's only real motivation is doing whatever Talia wants, but I like to think he was doing as he pleased too. It's safe to guess from being in the Pit for so long for reasons that could be similar to Vengeance of Bane, his view is of a prison world. And with that, he sees Gotham as an even greater prison and Batman the warden: logically, his mindset tells him to break the Batman, and from that he becomes the top dog.

But at the same time, it doesn't make much sense, does it? Why would he want to rule Gotham only to be working under Talia for her love? Not to mention if Gotham were to become his and become another Pit of Despair, if you will, why create a temporary prison to blow up? There's no real follow up, and you would figure he would be aiming for a greater evil that would be a bit more permanent. LOL

And how it sounds on Talia's end, she sounds like yet another stupid woman we know of that has daddy problems. I can't blame her though! All of her life she grew up in a prison with her mom only to see her be killed. Dad's not around because the War Lord found Ra's marrying her daughter behind his back. For that, he sends his own pregnant daughter into a raging hell and makes Ra's an outcast.

That part makes perfect sense.

Later on in the Pit, she befriends Bane; she's found a big best friend that protects her and he has his own little Osito. Basically it's a romance between Chewie and a female Han Solo, minus how pedophile-ish it may seem. But then again, I can guess at this point when Talia escapes, she's between 8-10 years old, and Bane is probably 16 at the time.

On that side of the world, that makes sense.

When she escapes and Bane helps her in the process, being brutally beaten in the process, it's probably shortly after Talia finds her father (who's already begun creating the LOS) and they go into the Pit to save Bane. I'm surprised it took Ra's that long to go out save his own daughter, but at the time he probably didn't know he knocked up his wife before sending her to her death. I won't be picky and question that to no end. ANY WAY. He finds out he has a daughter. To make up for all the years that he never had with Talia, being the irresponsible father he was, goes over and saves her boyfriend from the pit. Ra's probably thinks "hey, he seems like a nice guy: takes care of Talia when his wife killed, gets beat to hell so she can escape. What the hell!" Ra's, Talia, and the League finally go barging into the Pit to extract vengeance on everyone there and save Bane. What could go wrong with this fantasy of a morbid fairy tale ending?

With some consideration Ra's takes in Talia and Bane, trains them to be members from the LOS. You never see Talia use this hand to hand combat and skilled ninjitsu, but other than that... once again, it's a rational train of thought.

After awhile, Ra's sees that Bane has anger management issues and has probably gone through 40 different members of the League like toilet paper, and decides enough is enough! Pulls his thoughts together, gives Bane a slap on the wrist and excommunicates him from the League because he's a reminder of his wife and the hell he stuck her in... and that he probably hulked out too much when he shouldn't have and killed about 42% of the group he invested years in making. He DID take the time to get his newly formed order to save his @$$ from the Pit. And in return, kills almost half of them, or safe to assume that he does. What other kind of reckless behavior would you expect from a group of deadly assassins that would make Ra's a little ticked off? In the eyes of Ra's, Bane is a reckless hummer driving douce bag monster and doesn't deem him fit for his daughter.

If I was a father and just found this out about a daughter I never knew that I had, I would kind of feel the same way.

With Bane gone, I guess Talia has a b*tch fit and never speaks to her father again. So for years on out, she then ONLY decides to forgive her father after he's dead. Talia's pissed because she's under the impression that Ra's only excommunicated Bane because he loved her. It could VERY WELL be the case, but again... I won't question it. So Talia leaves because she's pissed with daddy for taking Bane away. She never speaks to him or comes around to forgiving him until she finds out Batman murders him... which, let's be honest, DID. LOL

And because Ra's failed to cleanse the world with an Ozymandias like motive (that has its benefits in an overly extreme way), Batman within 8 years is able to purify Gotham for the most part with the help of Dent and Gordon... without killing anyone. Minus Ra's, who he left on a train with no rail and a device that could explode at any time. And Harvey Dent... because he got butter fingers and dropped him accidentally after shoving him off of 6-10 story roof only moments earlier. It was a lie, sure, but most great things come from secret lies.

So in a nutshell:

-Talia in a angry PMS fury, devises a plan to destroy a Gotham that's already been, for the most part, saved, with the help of Bane whom considers only a friend at this point after fooling around with Bruce.

-Bane is friend zoned and does everything in the name of Talia's love while attempting to have his own fun along the way. Which includes breaking Batman, putting him in the Pit that he endured for years for reasons we can assume that was created by Chuck Dixon.

-The Emperor Palpatine of the story, Talia, makes a half-@$$ed plan as an apology to her father who shouldn't have been fooling around with his bosses' daughter in the first place, and in the process marrying her as an apology for not wearing or breaking his condom.

-And from there, Talia takes advantage of Bane's love and makes him do all the hard work as a grand master dictator... While she dolls up for a board member job in Wayne Enterprises, only to throw parties and screw Bruce Wayne on the side because she's a typical artificial b*tch.


THAT'S where the tires fall off for me.

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Old 02-17-2013, 03:15 AM   #171
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Default Re: Why did the League of Shadows want to destroy a peaceful city?

I haven't been here for a while, but I will say this on this subject:

Twice Bane says that he is here (in Gotham) to "fulfill Rā's al Ghūl's destiny."

If you read the Batman Begins novelization, Rā's wanted Gotham to serve as an example to the world at large. Gotham in his mind represented the growing decadence and corruption in the modern world, and so as "the League of Shadows (being) a check against human corruption for thousands of years," saw fit to use Gotham as a symbol. Remember, the LOS essentially created the environment that killed Bruce's parents and, in turn, created the Batman, by tampering with Gotham's internal economy, thrusting the city into a polarizing depression.

Talia simply wishes to continue/finish her father's work. So regardless of Gotham's "peacetime," the LOS has a legitimate reason to want to destroy Gotham. But under Bane and Talia, they would have literally destroyed Gotham. Rā's never wanted to destroy the city. He wanted to use Crane's blue poppy-derived fear toxin to let Gotham tear itself apart.

In other words, Rā's was pretty hands-off, Bane/