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Old 02-11-2013, 08:21 AM   #101
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

Fangirls can get blinded, that is true, but that's their right to be blinded if they want. This is a fictional fantasy character we are talking about, not real life. A fantasy about a "bad boy" is generally harmless, because it is FANTASY. but a girl would have to be pretty dumb and self destructive to hook up with a guy like Loki or early/pre Thor 1 Thor in real life. Because both were pretty bad guys and if you can't see that then you are way too blinded. Being involved with either one would be very dangerous to a woman's health and most people have more common sense than that. The ones that dont probably need to seek counselling, and certainly a stranger on a messageboard isn't going to straighten them out on that.

And people can also get very very blinded in the other direction about Loki, I have noticed, and do not see a truly complete unbiased picture of the character and what he's been through and what's going on in his head. There is actually great value in understanding *that* in regards to violent people in real life, because when we understand what makes people do terrible things, what made them come to that point in their life, then we (as a society) might actually be able to stop people from doing terrible things in future (through improving mental health programs, rehabilitation programs in jail, and most importantly catching the warning signs early on and helping that person away from that path through meds/therapy/getting them away from an abusive/bad situation). Otherwise, if we all just sit there and say that person is evil and that is it, without looking at anything else, then we as a society get no where. There is absolutely no ground made on figuring out how to stop that behavior with that individual, or other individuals in future, and so that behavior continues. So looking at such circumstances, and empathizing/sympathizing to an extent, is actually a good thing, and can bring about progress.

There is NO POINT in arguing about any of this however. people will think what they will think, and see what they are willing to see, and be biased in either direction. Certainly a stranger arguing about it with them on a messageboard is most times not going to change their minds, on either side of the argument. And it just makes people hostile towards each other, and makes people no longer want to come into a thread. I just am so sick and tired of the arguing about it, and reading arguing about it. I just wish we could talk about more positive, less volatile topics here.

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Old 02-11-2013, 08:40 AM   #102
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

That's the problem I have discussing certain characters though. With Loki as a character if you break him down to his base core he's not what you could call a well of positivity. He's a mass murderer with zero remorse but for very superficial reasons. Really, I can't find it positive that he is willing to kill innocent people because he feels unloved. You just cannot sugar coat what Loki really is despite how cute looking Tom is.

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Old 02-11-2013, 09:31 AM   #103
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

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I was expecting you to jump in. We see things quite differently, there's all there is to it. What you define as crazy, I don't. There's always an explanation for why someone acts the way they do, and actually, Loki acts quite predictably. The general idea of craziness is people doing things at random, which Loki doesn't. I don't want to discuss personal disorders here either, because the material is too scarce to judge on.

I'm not saying what I say to excuse his behavior. He has to own his actions and decisions and no one forces him to act the way he does, but at the same time we don't live our lives in a vacuum. Things that happen around him are interpreted and forms a basis for decisions and the way he acts. This is true even if someone has a personal disorder too. Just making Loki out as a villain plain and simple is to miss out on the complexity of the character. A villain with nothing redeeming in his/her character is boring and cannon fodder, expendable. I'd say that Loki is the mirror showing the murky sides of humanity, what we do when we feel slighted and crave power. His Machiavellian methods are repulsive, but nevertheless, it's something we are capable of too. It's what gives his character the resonance it does, the fact that he's not unlike us. Because he's a god the result is spectacular, but there have been plenty of rulers on this earth who knew how to cause mayhem. Not all of them have been considered evil either. It's the victor writing history after all.

I have lived with a man with Bipolar for many years. It gives you perspective on people's motives and also on what people call 'crazy'. It has also made me a lot more interested in the ambiguousness of our characters and less interested in 'good', 'true' and 'right'. Everything are in shades of grey, even the things we spontaneously call evil.
well then I take it that in your views, being crazy is subjeective/opinionated. OR non existant. Because there is no.."crazy". It essentially a label given to someone or something that has certain qualities

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Old 02-11-2013, 09:31 AM   #104
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

First of all, I'm not some stupid teenage girl who just sympathizes with villains because the actor is hot. I really dont appreciate you insinuating that I am either. Clearly you dont think much of me, if that's what you think.

and the flip of the coin is we have Thor, early Thor 1, who was loved, and extremely priviledged, the precious chosen son, the one true heir, everything going his way, mom and dad love him best, all the babes love him, he's got his mighty hammer and the alpha male in the group. Everyone cheering as he is to be made King. Then his coronation is spoiled and he goes down to Jotunheim at the beginning of Thor 1, with the intention of beating and killing and subjugating the **** out of the Frost Giants, against the wishes of his father and companions, and needlessly endangering his companions. I"ll "slay them all" he said as a little boy. He murders them with a disturbing glee there on Jotunheim. Killing for the fun of it, he refuses to be dragged away as his brother calls to him, pleading with him to make an escape with the rest of them. Because he's just having too much fun there. He talks about "glorious battles" so it sounds like he's been killing in those battles across the 9 realms with glee for 1000 years. He has this attitude of violence is good and glorious for 1000 years, a mass murderer with zero remorse, for 1000 years. I dont say this to be vicious or attack Thor, not at all, I'm glad he changed, that's good, it's good that he had a character arc that made him much more complicated and grey and not just a Dudley Do-right character. That is a good thing. but if you break him down to his base core at that point, and for a LONG time before that, he is as bad as Loki, even if in slightly different ways, and with little or seemingly absolutely no reasons, superficial or not, for being that way.

So you see? No point in arguing about this crap. So please, let's move on.

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Old 02-11-2013, 09:43 AM   #105
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

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I like Loki as a character but we have to be real about who the character is. Fangirls can get way too blinded by Tom's good looks to really see Loki's character for what he is. Loki consciously makes the decision to injure, maim, and kill innocent people in New Mexico for the specific purpose of killing Thor. Nobody forces Loki to tell the Destroyer to kill and maim all those people it does and this is in Thor before he meets Thanos. If Loki was a real person he'd be a Ted Bundy type of person.

Difference between Thor and Loki is that Thor has learned his lesson and Loki has not. We need to stop romanticizing evil characters of this nature and vilify the heroes who are trying to stop them from their selfish destructive behaviors.
essentially . At the end of the day, Loki is a villain.

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That's the problem I have discussing certain characters though. With Loki as a character if you break him down to his base core he's not what you could call a well of positivity. He's a mass murderer with zero remorse but for very superficial reasons. Really, I can't find it positive that he is willing to kill innocent people because he feels unloved. You just cannot sugar coat what Loki really is despite how cute looking Tom is.

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First of all, I'm not some stupid teenage girl who just sympathizes with villains because the actor is hot. I really dont appreciate you insinuating that I am either. Clearly you dont think much of me, if that's what you think.

and the flip of the coin is we have Thor, early Thor 1, who was loved, and extremely priviledged, the precious chosen son, the one true heir, everything going his way, mom and dad love him best, all the babes love him, he's got his mighty hammer and the alpha male in the group. Everyone cheering as he is to be made King. Then his coronation is spoiled and he goes down to Jotunheim at the beginning of Thor 1, with the intention of beating and killing and subjugating the **** out of the Frost Giants, against the wishes of his father and companions, and needlessly endangering his companions. I"ll "slay them all" he said as a little boy. He murders them with a disturbing glee there on Jotunheim. Killing for the fun of it, he refuses to be dragged away as his brother calls to him, pleading with him to make an escape with the rest of them. Because he's just having too much fun there. He talks about "glorious battles" so it sounds like he's been killing in those battles across the 9 realms with glee for 1000 years. He has this attitude of violence is good and glorious for 1000 years, a mass murderer with zero remorse, for 1000 years. I dont say this to be vicious or attack Thor, not at all, I'm glad he changed, that's good, it's good that he had a character arc that made him much more complicated and grey and not just a Dudley Do-right character. That is a good thing. but if you break him down to his base core at that point, and for a LONG time before that, he is as bad as Loki, even if in slightly different ways, and with little or seemingly absolutely no reasons, superficial or not, for being that way.

So you see? No point in arguing about this crap. So please, let's move on.
I don't think she was insulting you, pretty sure "you" was in general, so don't take it personally.

But the thing you gotta understand Elizah, is that these are all people who have read comics, for a long time. A lot longer than you have. The MCU, and films didn't introduce them into comics, so in general, even though you are a fan, a lot of hard core comic book readers do know a lot more about the character than you do, or anyone else who started getting into it recently. They have read 50+ years of characterization in the source material going for them. And haven't read up about them cause they are fan. They've read all the source material. Again, yes, mcu and 616 are different, but he's not THAT different, and the film version is based on the comic book Loki...based on qualities that place him solidly in the top 10 marvel villains, as many lists say. It's just a different take on his 616 version. But qualities of his 616 are still there.



I am gunna say my opinion on mcu Loki super quick and short for once. Right now, Loki is a self conflicted, evil, egotistical narcisistic man, similar to how he is in the comics. HOWEVER, he had a much different origin, a deeper emotional origin that lead to his current state. That's how I see it. At the end of the day, he is the Loki we know, he just had a more conflicting and emotional rise that lead to this.

and No, Thor is a warrior born, and craves battle, but he was never as bad as Loki. Come on now, being spontaneous and arrogant is different than intentionally causing mischief. Thor and Loki aren't really comparable in that retrospect.

The thing you got to understand, as some people who have read of these characters their whole life, for someone to come in who is new to marvel and these characters, and tell them "how it is" regarding a character, it's destined for conflict.

this is a pointless debate, everyone has different views, so lets just drop it from here

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Old 02-11-2013, 09:52 AM   #106
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

I just have to say that we know very little about Loki's past in the MCU. I've been thinking of this but magic seems to be a pretty superstitious subject among Asgardians because of how much fear it can instill. It's something that brute force can't tackle and very few are actually able to control it. I think with the inclusion of the Dark Elves and Malekith we'll see exactly why magic is a pretty taboo skill set to have because I posit that like with the Force it's very easy to use a malevolent energy with the Dark Arts because of the immense power it possesses. And it's pretty established that power is Loki's drug. So intense is his addiction to it that it supersedes everything else in his life, even love.

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Old 02-11-2013, 10:11 AM   #107
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

In my view he was MOST DEFINITELY as bad, if not worse, since Thor was at that kind of behavior for much longer than Loki, and has little or seemingly no psychological reason for it. You dont think so and that's fine, but we are never going to agree on that, or Loki, so what's the point in arguing about it? None.

I hear what you are saying, however, actually, from what I've read of the more recent "source material", including some of the more recent animated films, there is very definitely a trend towards changing how he is seen in the comics, making him a much more 3 dimensional character. After reading the Simonson arc, I've read other Thor comics, I've seen the Tales of Asgard film, the Blood Brothers film, read JIM Kid Loki comics, and am in the process of reading Siege (unfortunately I got a hold of Siege aftermath from the library, before I could get the stuff that came before). I can see that they are definitely adding a deeper emotional impact and origin to that character. Clearly. And it's interesting that they are doing this at a time when they are presenting a more grey character in the films than he was in the comics for a good chunk of those 50 years. And btw, Blood Brothers Loki looks NOTHING like Tom.

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I just have to say that we know very little about Loki's past in the MCU. I've been thinking of this but magic seems to be a pretty superstitious subject among Asgardians because of how much fear it can instill. It's something that brute force can't tackle and very few are actually able to control it. I think with the inclusion of the Dark Elves and Malekith we'll see exactly why magic is a pretty taboo skill set to have because I posit that like with the Force it's very easy to use a malevolent energy with the Dark Arts because of the immense power it possesses. And it's pretty established that power is Loki's drug. So intense is his addiction to it that it supersedes everything else in his life, even love.
I dont know about all of that, but if that's your opinion fine. While it would seem from the deleted scene with Thor that there is a certain amount of looking down on Loki for his magic, Thor's "others just do tricks" jab, but I'm not sure that they actually consider it taboo. I mean, Odin has to know all about that, for one thing.

Magic will certainly bring an exciting new aspect to the fights though. So it's not just more of Thor beating people up, which we've seen over and over already. I'm really really hoping for a Malekith vs Loki magic fight. And actually I came across someone on Tumblr a while a back on the VFX team for THor 2, who bragged that she got to look at pictures of Loki all day, and in another post said something about the Loki "build team" having fun that day, so all that considered, along with AAA's comments about Loki having some great fights, I am very very encouraged that we WILL see a lot more magic out of Loki in Thor 2.

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Old 02-11-2013, 10:24 AM   #108
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

Well maybe magic itself is not taboo but the Dark Arts is easier to master than light magic. And it's that Dark Energy which can easily distort one's soul. Who knows how much Dark Energy Loki genetically possesses in his DNA already. Maybe that's why Odin hid his lineage from him, because he feared that Loki, knowing he was the spawn of two evil creatures, would be marked to become just like his biological parents because it was his destiny all along. He was just buying time until Thor was strong enough to handle the threat.

I keep thinking of Nick Fury's words in the Avengers with Thor concerning Loki as a threat, "What are you prepared to do?" I think that Odin knows that if he had to he could not kill Loki because of how he came to raise Loki as his own son. I think on some basic level Odin is grooming Thor to do what his aging, mellowing mind cannot do and that's upholding the peace within the nine realms, even if that means killing Loki to stop their destruction.

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Old 02-11-2013, 10:48 AM   #109
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

Laufey wasn't a nice guy certainly, but he had his own POV about the situation, about feeling his people were being held down by "the man" aka Odin and the Asgardians. Odin is "a murderer and a thief" according to him, which raises some interesting questions about Odin and how the other realms view him. But in any case, Laufey is not exactly a 1 dimensional evil villain, either. He did give Thor and co a chance to leave peacefully, after all. However, we have absolutely no idea what or who Loki's mother was and if she was and "evil creature" at all. Not being argumentative. Just stating a fact (for the MCU anyway, there is very little on her in the comics too, from what I've seen)

Dark arts vs light magic, I'm not sure how much they've shown the two as different in the Thor comics. Are they different? Is there a Wicked Witch of the West and a Glinda the Good Witch in the Thor comics, really? Or Sith Force vs Jedi Force? I honestly didn't think there was but I dont know enough about that aspect. Doesn't Dr. Strange know about the "dark arts" and he's a good guy, and Scarlet Witch. I thought it was all magic/"science", not necessarily good or bad, just how you use it.

I am confident that Nick Fury's comment was referring to wanting to torture Loki for information, because Fury no doubt could see that he wasnt' going to do anything to Loki, if Thor was not okay with it. And clearly, Thor was not okay with torturing Loki there, so at this point Black Widow enters with a different tactic. Interestingly, it seems like Loki thought that Thor would be okay with torturing him, judging by his response to seeing Black Widow (as he expected to see her be used as a "balm" to get info from him after the torture).

My feeling (my fan fiction version in my head of this backstory currently) is that it is possible that IF Odin knows there is a prophecy regarding Loki causing Ragnarok, that he knew that about Loki when he was a baby, and may have gone to the temple to kill baby Loki there (hence Laufey calling him a murderer, if he really abandoned the baby, then he probably wouldnt have cared about Odin killing the baby to still hold resentment about it). Because killing the baby would prevent the prophecy from fullfilling in theory. Then in the temple Odin looked on baby Loki, and saw he was just an innocent child, and couldn't bring himself to murder him, couldnt' make that "moral sacrifice" so to speak, no matter the predictions about him, and so took Loki in to raise him, and hope that he could change that destiny/prophecy/predicted outcome. This is what I hope the backstory is, actually, and that somehow Loki is able to rise above it in the MCU. But that's all just speculation.

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Old 02-11-2013, 11:02 AM   #110
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

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In my view he was MOST DEFINITELY as bad, if not worse, since Thor was at that kind of behavior for much longer than Loki, and has little or seemingly no psychological reason for it. You dont think so and that's fine, but we are never going to agree on that, or Loki, so what's the point in arguing about it? None.

I hear what you are saying, however, actually, from what I've read of the more recent "source material", including some of the more recent animated films, there is very definitely a trend towards changing how he is seen in the comics, making him a much more 3 dimensional character. After reading the Simonson arc, I've read other Thor comics, I've seen the Tales of Asgard film, the Blood Brothers film, read JIM Kid Loki comics, and am in the process of reading Siege (unfortunately I got a hold of Siege aftermath from the library, before I could get the stuff that came before). I can see that they are definitely adding a deeper emotional impact and origin to that character. Clearly. And it's interesting that they are doing this at a time when they are presenting a more grey character in the films than he was in the comics for a good chunk of those 50 years. And btw, Blood Brothers Loki looks NOTHING like Tom.



I dont know about all of that, but if that's your opinion fine. While it would seem from the deleted scene with Thor that there is a certain amount of looking down on Loki for his magic, Thor's "others just do tricks" jab, but I'm not sure that they actually consider it taboo. I mean, Odin has to know all about that, for one thing.

Magic will certainly bring an exciting new aspect to the fights though. So it's not just more of Thor beating people up, which we've seen over and over already. I'm really really hoping for a Malekith vs Loki magic fight. And actually I came across someone on Tumblr a while a back on the VFX team for THor 2, who bragged that she got to look at pictures of Loki all day, and in another post said something about the Loki "build team" having fun that day, so all that considered, along with AAA's comments about Loki having some great fights, I am very very encouraged that we WILL see a lot more magic out of Loki in Thor 2.
blood brothers is just an abomination of work and looks like paper lol everyone in that...thing..just looks horrible.

I am not gunna keep this going, I dp disagree with your opinion on Thor, as would many other thor fans I'm sure...but we'll let it go lol as you said, pointletss

Though not just magic out of Loki..magic in general. Everyone. I want to see magic being used much more. Even thor, and especially Odin. It seems Malekith will be using some magic based powers based on set footage, and I am sure Loki will as well. Thor doesn't need to be grounded in realism..doesn't have to be believable. Magic can exist in the MCU. It's magic ,it doesn't HAVE to be understood

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Old 02-11-2013, 11:06 AM   #111
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

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Laufey wasn't a nice guy certainly, but he had his own POV about the situation, about feeling his people were being held down by "the man" aka Odin and the Asgardians. Odin is "a murderer and a thief" according to him, which raises some interesting questions about Odin and how the other realms view him. But in any case, Laufey is not exactly a 1 dimensional evil villain, either. He did give Thor and co a chance to leave peacefully, after all. However, we have absolutely no idea what or who Loki's mother was and if she was and "evil creature" at all. Not being argumentative. Just stating a fact (for the MCU anyway, there is very little on her in the comics too, from what I've seen)

Dark arts vs light magic, I'm not sure how much they've shown the two as different in the Thor comics. Are they different? Is there a Wicked Witch of the West and a Glinda the Good Witch in the Thor comics, really? Or Sith Force vs Jedi Force? I honestly didn't think there was but I dont know enough about that aspect. Doesn't Dr. Strange know about the "dark arts" and he's a good guy, and Scarlet Witch. I thought it was all magic/"science", not necessarily good or bad, just how you use it.

I am confident that Nick Fury's comment was referring to wanting to torture Loki for information, because Fury no doubt could see that he wasnt' going to do anything to Loki, if Thor was not okay with it. And clearly, Thor was not okay with torturing Loki there, so at this point Black Widow enters with a different tactic. Interestingly, it seems like Loki thought that Thor would be okay with torturing him, judging by his response to seeing Black Widow (as he expected to see her be used as a "balm" to get info from him after the torture).

My feeling (my fan fiction version in my head of this backstory currently) is that it is possible that IF Odin knows there is a prophecy regarding Loki causing Ragnarok, that he knew that about Loki when he was a baby, and may have gone to the temple to kill baby Loki there (hence Laufey calling him a murderer, if he really abandoned the baby, then he probably wouldnt have cared about Odin killing the baby to still hold resentment about it). Because killing the baby would prevent the prophecy from fullfilling in theory. Then in the temple Odin looked on baby Loki, and saw he was just an innocent child, and couldn't bring himself to murder him, couldnt' make that "moral sacrifice" so to speak, no matter the predictions about him, and so took Loki in to raise him, and hope that he could change that destiny/prophecy/predicted outcome. This is what I hope the backstory is, actually, and that somehow Loki is able to rise above it in the MCU. But that's all just speculation.
exactly, and given that would have been 1000 years ago, and how wise Odin is, he would have done it to ensure peace. This would lead me to assume that Loki is not part of the prophecy. Im sure some parts of the prophecy, if there is one in the mcu, will be mentioned in this movie.

and what you are describing what you are hoping from Loki....that is what he did to Thor in the comics...rose him a certain way so they can change the prophecy, it was revealed. Thus thor ended up changing the prophecy, not the way "those who sit above in shadows" had it planned out. He gave up his eyes, learned run magic, became more powerful and more wiser than his father, and completely ended the cycle of ragnarok.

What you described already happened in the comics with thor, and it is perosnally one of my favorite arcs, so I am sure if they had a prophecy changing plot, it would be lightly influenced from the rune lord thor arc

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Old 02-11-2013, 12:05 PM   #112
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

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blood brothers is just an abomination of work and looks like paper lol everyone in that...thing..just looks horrible.
lol! Yes. I got the heebies over the panel where it's implied Loki was about to get it on with that servant girl.

All I could picture is wrinkly old man d.

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Old 02-11-2013, 12:10 PM   #113
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

Just to be clear, I didnt say I recommended it. ROFL. Just making the point that I made the effort and watched it and other stuff...

I will probably reply to you later jaqua99, just mulling some things over right now.

I wanted to just add to the quote that came from Tom about seeing "new dimensions" and what he was referring to, the other realms or new dimensions to his character. I sort of assumed it was new realms/planets dimensions, but then i remembered this very recent quote from him

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"It's so exciting to have established characters and an established setting in the world, and we are working so hard to cook up something new. That is what is exciting me - taking what we know, taking what we love and deepening it and giving it an extra dimension. I think director Alan Taylor is really shaping up the world of Asgard and the world of these characters."

Read more: http://www.digitalspy.com/movies/new...#ixzz2KcmIi9Dm
Follow us: @digitalspy on Twitter | digitalspyuk on Facebook
so yeah, I think he may be referring to new dimensions to Loki's character in that vid yesterday. (since he was being questioned specifically about what Loki was up to in Thor 2).. so. YAY.


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Old 02-11-2013, 03:46 PM   #114
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

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Just to be clear, I didnt say I recommended it. ROFL. Just making the point that I made the effort and watched it and other stuff...

I will probably reply to you later jaqua99, just mulling some things over right now.

I wanted to just add to the quote that came from Tom about seeing "new dimensions" and what he was referring to, the other realms or new dimensions to his character. I sort of assumed it was new realms/planets dimensions, but then i remembered this very recent quote from him



so yeah, I think he may be referring to new dimensions to Loki's character in that vid yesterday. (since he was being questioned specifically about what Loki was up to in Thor 2).. so. YAY.
I think he was just talking about all of it lol He said similar things I beleive about Loki in the avengers. I think he may be referring to asgardians and the story as a whole

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Old 02-13-2013, 10:00 AM   #115
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

I don't know if anyone has seen this before (and yes, I know it's Avengers related, not Thor2 related, but this Loki thread is more active than the Avengers Loki thread)... a friend of mine on twitter linked to it. Beautiful piece of concept artwork of Loki's Arrival by Andy Park:

http://cghub.com/images/view/372120/

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Old 02-13-2013, 10:36 AM   #116
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

lol... he's been through Hel and back and still has his helmet on.

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Old 02-13-2013, 12:05 PM   #117
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

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lol... he's been through Hel and back and still has his helmet on.

EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!

no reason thor shouldn't have his helmet

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Old 02-13-2013, 02:01 PM   #118
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But the thing you gotta understand Elizah, is that these are all people who have read comics, for a long time. A lot longer than you have. The MCU, and films didn't introduce them into comics, so in general, even though you are a fan, a lot of hard core comic book readers do know a lot more about the character than you do, or anyone else who started getting into it recently. They have read 50+ years of characterization in the source material going for them. And haven't read up about them cause they are fan. They've read all the source material. Again, yes, mcu and 616 are different, but he's not THAT different, and the film version is based on the comic book Loki...based on qualities that place him solidly in the top 10 marvel villains, as many lists say. It's just a different take on his 616 version. But qualities of his 616 are still there.
Not picking a fight here with you (since you, jaqua99, specifically wanted to drop this henceforth) or anyone else; it's difficult to say someone is dead wrong (though I have, god forbid, once or twice felt like I wanted to use Thor's hammer on someone because they were so incomprehensibly wrong - in another time and place), it happens, but mostly it's just us, all of us, viewing things with what we bring with us in to a fandom, every experience and the culture we grew up with. It's not just how long someone has been part of this particular pop culture, though some will inevitably feel they own something a bit more than those who haven't been around that long. However, for something to live on it has to constantly bring new people aboard, or it will die. New people means new influx of opinions and ideas, ever changing a phenomenon, because those producing these things will adapt their product to the present. It's just the way it is. Life really.

Just... chill. And I'm talking in general here. K?

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Old 02-13-2013, 05:27 PM   #119
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

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Not picking a fight here with you (since you, jaqua99, specifically wanted to drop this henceforth) or anyone else; it's difficult to say someone is dead wrong (though I have, god forbid, once or twice felt like I wanted to use Thor's hammer on someone because they were so incomprehensibly wrong - in another time and place), it happens, but mostly it's just us, all of us, viewing things with what we bring with us in to a fandom, every experience and the culture we grew up with. It's not just how long someone has been part of this particular pop culture, though some will inevitably feel they own something a bit more than those who haven't been around that long. However, for something to live on it has to constantly bring new people aboard, or it will die. New people means new influx of opinions and ideas, ever changing a phenomenon, because those producing these things will adapt their product to the present. It's just the way it is. Life really.

Just... chill. And I'm talking in general here. K?
yes lol. But my point is once again missed. I am not saying you or her is wrong, as for my comment for "how long someone may be into it, with the source material stuff", you missunderstood my point as well. I didn't explain it. My point was simply that the perspective from a long time comic book fan is totally different. And you got to understand that like music, and any type of pop culture media, things DO change, yes I know, but the originality always has an influence. Essentially, Loki won't be getting a revamp, aspects of his 616 will still be there.

there will ALWAYS be a part of the 616 character in any character, and regardless of the coming change which there will be, there WILL be a part of the character we all know from the 616 in there, because that's where the source material was from. That was my point lol Yes, there will be some changes, and new takes on characters, but the gist of a character will still stay true to the source material. My point is that of all the people who have read it, they KNOW of the character from source material. And relate currently to source material. My point, is that what comes to mind first is different. Loki, for you, probably is the MCU loki, cause that's what you were introduced to. Where as a lot of others, it was the source material that MCU loki was based off of.

Yes, I know how pop culture changes, Like music for instantance, rock music. Has taken a change from older music. However, it's all still there. Rock drummers, different than what it was back in the day. But just about 90% of rock drummers today, whether it be intentional or not, ALL have influence from John Bonham in their playing. New spin on music, however the original creator still has a MASSIVE influence on it today.

I know loki will have some new qualities, as you have said, and different aspects to the character, but at the end of the day, he is still..Loki. The point was, regardless of how people are introduced, and the changing pop culture, there will ALWAYS be a version of the original there, whether it be a different take, or what..there source material will still be there.

I am not attacking you by saying people know more, it's just the circumstance, and perspective. didn't mean for it to sound agressive, but the point I was trying to make is that Loki, to all of us is this character. That's how we see him. Whether it be the slight modification in the MCU, or just the name, that's how we see Loki, and marvel studios know that's how comic book fans see this character. So while you say the character is different, you have to understand, it's not as simple for all of us, because that's 50+ years of qualities and motives of a character that we grew to know, just erased. Marvel studios won't do that. That's a fact. They WILL do what they've continued to do. Not MAKE a new Loki, just add a different take on the 616 version, because THATS Loki. That's how it is with any other character as well. Whatever takes they make for a character, it will STILL stay true, to some extent, to the source material. Understandable how my wording wasn't plesant, but that's what I meant, and That was my point

with that being said, there is something I would like to see out of Loki, which I will adress in my next post

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Old 02-13-2013, 06:01 PM   #120
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

Wait... did someone in here make the argument that Thor was worse off morally as a character than Loki at the start of the first Thor movie??
How.. I don't even....

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Old 02-13-2013, 06:03 PM   #121
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

I was thinking about this a lot recently. I know we've been limmitted to see what Loki's powers are. Whether or not he hasn't used all his powers yet ,or he will learn more..I don't know. However, what I would like to see, is the obvious increase in power and magic use.

However, in a different way. I would like to see Loki become REALLY powerful. Like, he's not the "warrior born" thor is, so he won't be a better warrior, but due to all is magic use and everything he learns, I would like to see him became "more powerful" than thor. I think that would be an interesting take in terms of power.

It would throw a new type of power for him to try to achieve. Not positional power, but physical power and might. I would love to see MCU Loki turn into essentially this darker, all powerful sorceror, essentially, the most powerful asgardian aside from Odin.

I think that would be interesting, and then they could certainly take Loki to uncharted territory

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Old 02-13-2013, 07:08 PM   #122
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

Suffice to say, fans are fans, and fans are good for the franchise, whether they read the comics or not, and whether their opinion of a character is the same as yours or not, that can be extremely subjective. So let's not keep going back and forth about who is right and who is wrong? Because that's only going to make people defensive and angry, and make people at the very least leave the board, if not decide to stop being fans entirely. Any fans are good, so if they have a more hopeful POV about Loki and his future as a character in the MCU, then let them have that, please, because quite frankly without that, for some, they may no longer be fans or on this board at all.

I definitely want to see more power, more magic from Loki that is for sure. It would also allow for much more interesting fights in the films, rather than the old bash em ups we've seen of Loki and Thor the past 2 movies. That is getting tired and repetative at this point (at least IMO). i'm very hopeful of some very different fights for Loki in this one, hopefully involving more magic than just duplicates etc.

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Old 02-13-2013, 08:07 PM   #123
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

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Suffice to say, fans are fans, and fans are good for the franchise, whether they read the comics or not, and whether their opinion of a character is the same as yours or not, that can be extremely subjective. So let's not keep going back and forth about who is right and who is wrong? Because that's only going to make people defensive and angry, and make people at the very least leave the board, if not decide to stop being fans entirely. Any fans are good, so if they have a more hopeful POV about Loki and his future as a character in the MCU, then let them have that, please, because quite frankly without that, for some, they may no longer be fans or on this board at all.

I definitely want to see more power, more magic from Loki that is for sure. It would also allow for much more interesting fights in the films, rather than the old bash em ups we've seen of Loki and Thor the past 2 movies. That is getting tired and repetative at this point (at least IMO). i'm very hopeful of some very different fights for Loki in this one, hopefully involving more magic than just duplicates etc.
god damnit my computer died...

but any fans are great, I have no problem with that.

It's just that when some of the MCU loki fans say things like...he's not gunna be like comic loki..he's just misunderstood...they are changing things from the comics...he's not really evil....when people are saying things like that, I just want them to understand..there is 50+ years of characterization and character motives of a villain, who is regarded as one of marvel's best, not to mention. a total COMPLETE revamp into being..essentially a good guy, to an extent, or a total revamp in general wont happen. They won't do that, they will continue to do what they do..adapt 616 loki into the MCU, and making him more relatable to the audience. He's still the marvel villain Loki Laufeyson...MCU or not, that's who he is. That's who Loki is. That was my point. They can make a character more relatable and more..deep, if you will, but STILL stay true to the 616. that's all my point was.

and I know you understand that. 616 loki is still in there.


and EXACTLY. im a bit weary of a sorceror engaging in physical combat. I would hope for energy blasts, illusions, creating mental scenarios in people's heads, energy shields, "spells" keeping like thor suspended and unable to move, or having that effect o someone. Just more magic

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Old 02-13-2013, 08:57 PM   #124
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Default Re: Tom Hiddleston: Loki Redux - Part 1

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[Jon would like to see Loki cast] "spells" keeping like thor suspended and unable to move, or having that effect o someone. Just more magic
They had a moment like that in the Thor1 online script, when Loki and Thor are fighting in the observatory. For some reason, they didn't implement it. But maybe we'll see that in Thor2!

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Old 02-13-2013, 09:32 PM   #125
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but my point is who the hell cares if I or anyone else says that? We can't change what Marvel decides to do with the character. They are going to do what they want, and if they want to develop him in another new direction they WILL do that, if they don't want to do that, they wont. However, I would most certainly never say absolutely they could or would never give a character a major arc changing them either from good guy to bad guy or bad guy to good. I would never presume to say that it's impossible. This is a fictional character, after all, and most certainly not set in stone no matter how many years he's been around. They can do whatever they want with him, some aspects will always be with him sure, the mischievousness, for instance, making wrong choices, complicated plans, extreme measures, selfishness, self pity, all probably.... But per the recent kid Loki comics...



at another point, he explains to Kid Loki "No, change is all I desired. For me to change not you.... if the world will not let one change it's near impossible to do so. With your innocence you reestablished my name. And now I have a chance to be something else..."

I could write more quotes from the Loki's about changing but I dont want to get too spoilery. It really is an amazing read.

what has happened in JIM with Kid Loki and Old Loki is incredibly complicated and interesting and heartbreaking and I can't put into enough words all I feel for that story. It seems that Old Loki wants to change, a fresh start. but unfortunately per usual he uses some pretty terrible methods to go about his new plan for a new Loki. But does he really want to change? And in what ways exactly? And Why? We all have to wait and see I suppose. I have seen some very sincere regret in what I've read of more recent comics Loki though. Could he be lying and i'm being fooled? It's possible. but that's all part of the fun of reading it. It makes it all much harder to predict. And If I want to hope for a better Loki in comics and in MCU, that is MY right to hope for that, because that is my nature to want to hope for people. I haven't read A LOT but most certainly much of what I have read, the more recent stuff, is an pretty strong indicator that Marvel themselves are reinventing how the character has been seen for so many years. Whether it'll all come crashing back down in another terrible complex scheme by Loki is yet to be seen, but I think that you are short changing Marvel and the character by not at least considering that he might change. And what an amazing story or stories it would be if they managed to pull that off! Not to mention, as a fan of Thor I'd think you'd want to see him happy and have is brother back, and no longer his enemy, in both MCU and comics, if that's possible. That would be AMAZING! and quite frankly I HOPE that Marvel has the guts and the talent to tell THOSE stories because that is the kind of story I want to be told. That would truly open things up for Thor stories that are a "new recipe with the same ingredients".

and going back to the quote in the picture there a second. Villains in comics are handled differently than in films. in films as soon as a villain has outstayed his welcome so to speak, meaning, he's done bad things, and then he dies or goes to jail and the hero moves onto the next villain in the next movie. I dont want that for MCU Loki, I want him to stay and be active in these films as long as there are Thor movies. So he MUST change, they can't keep telling the same story in the films, that is ok in comics but it will get stale fast in the movies, if it hasn't already. The relationship between him and Thor MUST change or i fear it will soon be the end of Loki in the MCU.

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and EXACTLY. im a bit weary of a sorceror engaging in physical combat. I would hope for energy blasts, illusions, creating mental scenarios in people's heads, energy shields, "spells" keeping like thor suspended and unable to move, or having that effect o someone. Just more magic
in the Thor 1 script they did have Loki suspending Thor in the air for part of that fight, while Loki jawed at him, don't know why they didnt keep it.

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