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#701 |
Banned User
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: 865 Peppling Ave., Pettsburg, Gotham City
Posts: 6,998
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So after (finally) getting the film on BluRay and watching it countless times, I can finally express my one disappointment with the film without fear of spoiling anybody.
As a Batman fan, I wish Bruce had died. I simply feel that his sacrifice should have been genuine, because to me, Bruce cannot be separated from Batman, especially this portrayal of Bruce. His life was guided by the mission, and when we first see Bruce in TDKR, I could see it in his eyes that despite all the "other" circumstances of his self-imposed isolation, he was simply lost without Batman. For him to willingly sacrifice his life would have made this film as defining as The Dark Knight. If they had simply cut out Alfred's smile/nod and Bruce's smile/nod, and just left it at something catching Alfred's eye so that he looked at the audience, I think it would've been ambiguous enough without seemingly trying to be. This film needed finality for Bruce's story. That Blake would inherit the mantle I was fine with, but if Bruce is still alive there's no sense of finality. I love this film, don't get me wrong. And the more I watch it the more I love it, but Bruce needed to die. The ultimate "rising" if you will. Otherwise, Alfred's tears were shed for nothing. |
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#702 |
Lobsterized
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 11,470
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Couldn't feel more differently. The whole film is built around the premise of Bruce finding the will to live. To have him come to that realization, only for him to die anyway seems counterproductive to what the movie was trying to achieve with Bruce's arc. The point is a hero's death would have been the easy way out for Bruce. That's what he had to rise above.
I respect your opinion though. |
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#703 | |
Yes, Mr. Smith.
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: With Anne Hathaway.
Posts: 2,414
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One of the things that a lot people forget, or just choose to ignore, is the fact that Nolan set Batman in a realistic type world. This is the idea that was created in Batman Begins and followed though into The Dark Knight. So how could any man, even Bruce Wayne, be Batman forever in a realistic type world? There's no way he could and making him choose to be Batman forever would have been the biggest plot hole in the history of filmmaking. I always get a kick out of the "Batman would never do that." line. Or "Alfred would never do that." line. Well, Batman retired in comics and Alfred left Bruce in the comics. Then the counter argument to that is, "THIS Alfred would never do that." Which makes no sense because they are admitting that they understand Nolan's interpretation of Alfred, but they can't get past his interpretation of Batman? I also don't understand how people can love BB and TDK but hate TDKR. Everything was wrapped up and Bruce's story arch was told perfectly. I think it really comes down to people's expectations. I think that in the years between TDK and TDKR some people built up a story in their minds and when they story didn't jive with what we got they were unhappy. I remember my biggest complaint about TDK was that we wanted to quit. Sitting in the theater during my first viewing of TDKR made me realize how wrong I was. That scene where we see Bruce for the first time was what did it. I saw what being Batman had done to him. Bruce didn't lose everything when Alfred left and his money was taken away. He had already lost everything. He was a broken man even before he faced Bane the first time. I knew at the moment that he would never be Batman forever and I didn't want him to be. I knew he would rise up and save Gotham, but then I wanted him to be happy. This line sums it up best: Remember when you left Gotham? Before all this, before Batman? You were gone seven years. Seven years I waited, hoping that you wouldn't come back. Every year, I took a holiday. I went to Florence, there's this cafe, on the banks of the Arno. Every fine evening, I'd sit there and order a Fernet Branca. I had this fantasy, that I would look across the tables and I'd see you there, with a wife and maybe a couple of kids. You wouldn't say anything to me, nor me to you. But we'd both know that you'd made it, that you were happy. I never wanted you to come back to Gotham. I always knew there was nothing here for you, except pain and tragedy. And I wanted something more for you than that. I still do. That's what I wanted for Bruce, that's what he got and that's why I love TDKR. |
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#704 |
Iron Captain
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 20,513
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Realistic, the word, is pretty loaded nowadays. The moment you use it, there's a fairy chance you'll have a dozen rabid anons jump on you for it. I prefer to say plausible.
![]() I think the biggest reason I love this film is because Bruce's arc is inspiring. I was also against Blake being a Robin-type figure until I saw the finished product. I believe Alfred's tears were more because he failed his own code, or "rules" if you will. His hinted backstory leads me to believe that he places a lot of value on loyalty and devotion...and he failed in a pretty big way.
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#705 |
Caballero de la Luz
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,479
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That's poetry.
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#706 |
Third Man
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,569
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I really liked how in Rachel's letter, the part about Bruce not realizing how much he needed Batman; actually came to light in TDKR. That was very satisfying.
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#707 | |
DANCE FOR ME, FUNNY MAN!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 25,882
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![]() Anyways, I had another thought about this. Batman, by his very nature, is not the kind of hero who saves the world all by his lonesome. He works outside the law and bends the rules...but only so the police and lawyers can do their job. In BB, he gives Rachel what the DA's office need to prosecute Falcone. In TDK, he extradites Lao for Dent to take him to court. He doesn't give the notion that he decides how society should be run. He's an enabler. He enables good people to do their job. That's why he retired after TDK. His job was done - with the legacy of Dent intact, the Dent Act would give the police power to clean up the streets. The only time he needed to step in and save Gotham all by his lonesome were from things that could be thought of as "his fault." The LOS coming in, as well as Joker's rampage. In fact, the second time the LOS arrives is directly because of Bruce's actions in BB. The mobs were gone, the city was peaceful aside from the wayward slimy businessman (which really couldn't topple a city all by himself), so why did they return? Because Bruce killed Ra's in BB. (Or allowed him to die. Whichever. ![]() Now, the social implications of Bruce quitting also indirectly helps Bane gather his army. Without Batman and a reason for living, Bruce throws his entire company behind the clean energy project (without even considering if it's what Gotham really NEEDS), and it fails. With no more money and no more motivation, he hides within Wayne Manor, while his foundation ceases to help the less fortunate. Other would-be philanthropists see what's happening, and hold their money back also. I mean let's be fair, Wayne is very prominent in Gotham society. If he generously donates, he's definitely inspiring other of his social standing to do the same. (IRL, look to Bill Gates inspiring Warren Buffett, and them inspiring other wealthy donors.) Then look what happens in TDKR. A kid from the orphanage is found dead, probably because he pissed off Bane. He went there for work because the orphanage he grew up in no longer has the funds to keep him on. What was funding the orphanage? The Wayne Foundation. In this way, Bruce's inadvertent selfishness is partly his own undoing. The Dent Act also would make Gotham look like a police state to some, angering the lower class even more. All this happens because Batman meddled just a little too much into things, in society and in Bruce's life. So then, what IS the point of Batman? If the mob is gone and the police/DA can do their job, there is no point. The LOS that might reform after TDKR will be a different League - one that wouldn't just destroy Gotham because it was on the agenda 10 years before. (And unless Talia or Bane have a child bent on revenge...again.) Batman's reason for existing died after he took the bomb away from the city, which is why killing off Batman after that moment was so poignant. Without Batman and the trouble he brings, the people have a chance to rebuild it the way they see fit. "You don't need me anymore. Go off and do what you know best." At the end of TDKR, Bruce finally accepts this, instead of needing to be the hero. All this still depends on whether Blake has the sense not to make the same mistakes Bruce did and gaining more enemies in the process. ![]()
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#708 |
Caballero de la Luz
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,479
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Thanks for the read Anita! You certainly have a way with words.
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#709 |
Banned User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
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After watching TDKR, I gotta say...I don't see the need of TDKR going any other way such as giving a 'rise of the freaks' after Joker because it would, quite frankly, detract the idea of something good having to happen after the events of TDK. The Dent Act had to be created, Harvey Dent had to be a symbol of good...I don't see how or why a rise of freaks had to happen for the threequel. More and more I find what Nolan to have done in TDKR to be the best route; bringing the LoS back, even if it was more or less like a LoS 2.0, was necessary as well to end Bruce Wayne's story.
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#710 | |||
Team Language
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Cat's Lair, Third Earth
Posts: 20,264
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SUPERMAN: You know something Bruce? You're not always right. Long Live TCM |
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#711 | |
DANCE FOR ME, FUNNY MAN!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 25,882
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![]() And that's really the biggest difference between Nolan's Batman and the BatGod of the comics. BatGod does not care about how his rage consumes him. He just uses it more to be more BatGod-ish. Nolan's Batman is very much human, flawed and a weak vessel for all the anger that is contained inside him. No person can contain so much rage for so long and not have it eat him up.
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#712 |
DANCE FOR ME, FUNNY MAN!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 25,882
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More thoughts:
In TDK, Joker tells Batman that society will shun him when they don't need him anymore. This is partly true, but it's all because of Batman's own doing. In TDKR, we see that the mayor and Foley hate Batman, because he's the "SOB that killed Harvey Dent." It's not because he's a vigilante. In fact, many still view him as a heroic figure and are delighted at his return. At the same time, Bruce has always acknowledged that Batman is not wanted by society. Not because of disgust like it is with leprosy (like Joker claims), but because a functional society can not, should not view Batman as acceptable. It is not Batman's job to be the police. He enables the police by working outside the law, but it's always been a fine balance over how much he allows himself to work outside the law. So in killing off Batman, Bruce also frees Gotham from its obligation to hunt him 24/7. Even if it's always been a half-hearted effort, it's still effort that can be better used elsewhere. And he also frees Gotham from having to explain to the rest of society why they need him. Because they don't, not anymore.
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#713 | |
Banned User
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Interstellar
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#714 |
DANCE FOR ME, FUNNY MAN!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 25,882
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If he keeps it on the down-low, it won't be as much of a mess!
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#715 |
Caballero de la Luz
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 2,479
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Yes, on that note, I think Bruce was glad that by disappearing as Batman for those eight years. That meant taking some burden off Gordon, who would have been obligated to hunt him. I think Nolan felt for Gordon that way and subconsciously made Foley the one who took charge of the hunt in Rises.
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#716 | |
Banned User
Join Date: Oct 2010
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I get the second hour and what not had to have some somber tone to it, so I didn't mind as much if the citizens didn't talk about Batman or wonder where he was, as we had enough during the scene changes between Gotham and the Pit, but while Bruce returned the first time as Batman, I think that's the biggest problem in TDKR in that the return isn't acknowledged enough. And even with the IMAX time restraint for TDKR, the film still had 30 seconds to spare and that could've been used properly. |
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#717 |
HBIC
SHH! Global Moderator
Join Date: Dec 2009
Location: Chicago
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Saturn Awards nods for TDKR, Nolan, Bale, Hathaway, and Levitt:
http://dailydead.com/the-39th-saturn...ons-announced/ |
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#718 |
Banned User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
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Hrm, pretty prestigious awards. I think Supernatural has won their share of awards and they're nominated once more
![]() Hope to see TDKR win a few awards there...although, I'm a bit bugged on how Avengers is nominated for sci-fi and TAS-M is nominated for fantasy... |
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#719 |
Lobsterized
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: NJ
Posts: 11,470
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Finally, an acting nod for Bale in Rises. The guy deserves more credit for what he brought to this film.
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#720 | |
In the shadows
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Your mind.
Posts: 18,516
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The Blake character is one reason that many fans have rejected TDKR, but I do kind of embrace it. If you can accept that Chris Nolan's Batman series in NOT the comics, you can understand that this trilogy deserved a definitive ending for Bruce. He earned it, physically and emotionally, with a career that was pretty long for any man to endure (in reality). TDKR's ending is the perfect combo of "ambiguous" and "definitive", in that we don't really know what will happen in the future but we still know how our story ended.
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#721 |
Banned User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
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When it came to the Academy Awards and Golden Globes, I felt they snubbed A LOT of film noms and acting noms. It's sad, because once those specific awards, well maybe more the Oscars, was the pinnacle of acclaimed filmmaking. To argue otherwise that any snubs were just not good enough is baffling as well.
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#722 | |
DANCE FOR ME, FUNNY MAN!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: CA
Posts: 25,882
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![]() Blake expressed better judgement on the amount of meddling someone like Batman should do.
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#723 |
Side-Kick
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Sunshine State
Posts: 3,081
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So, I got The Dark Knight Rises on Bluray, and well, I really think the audio is kind of disorienting and a bit bad in places. I have the regular DVD too, and it's sound is great, but the Bluray is terrible. Anybody else have this problem?
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#724 | |
Third Man
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Canada
Posts: 3,569
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Can you be a bit more specific? Like what scene or scenes in general? My blu-ray is bloody fantastic though. |
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#725 |
Banned User
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
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Yah, my Blu-ray of TDKR is fine as well.
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