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Old 02-20-2013, 01:16 PM   #701
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

I think that's roughly the idea. He believed in her, and she rewarded his faith. The attraction was always there, but their hearts grow closer towards the end of the film. I mean, he trusts and forgives her after she betrayed him in a HUGE way.

"You could have gone anywhere, been anything. But you came back."

"So did you."

"I guess we're both suckers".

Sums it up.

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Old 02-21-2013, 12:55 AM   #702
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But to say Bruce found someone to fit his lifestyle...and he changed as soon as he came out of the Pit, it doesn't really make sense that Bruce still went with Selina even when he changed. Are we saying Selina changed as well and that's what Bruce saw in her and that's why they are both seen together at the end?
Pretty much. He longed for Rachel all three movies because she represented his pure happy childhood before the world faded away. It's not too subtle in that the Bruce Wayne who came out of the bat cave with his father was a different one. Especially when his parents died the next night. In the Pit he pulled himself up and gave up the Batman.

With Selina he found a kindred spirit that suited his personality far better than Rachel ever did because he wasn't idolizing her like Rachel. But look at how much more chemistry he has with her at the party than he ever did with Rachel, even though she stole from him and would again that night. Her lightness offsets his darkness. And she, like him, proved that she wanted to change and move on with her life when she took the clean slate and still came back to save him at the end of the movie.

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Old 02-21-2013, 01:43 AM   #703
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

That's the beauty of Bruce's arc. Selina is the right one.

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Old 02-21-2013, 01:45 AM   #704
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Bruce and Selina's relationship was one of the best things about this film. I criticize TDKR a lot for some things I think it really got wrong, but it also got some big things right. I love the dancing scene with Bruce and Selina in particular. Good stuff.

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Old 02-21-2013, 12:09 PM   #705
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Has anyone ever thought of Selina killing Bane as a mere metaphor of "the beauty killed the beast" kind of thing?

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Old 02-21-2013, 06:29 PM   #706
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Where are the fans that would NOT change a thing?

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Old 02-21-2013, 06:38 PM   #707
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Where are the fans that would NOT change a thing?
I'm guessing in the thread that's not about the things that people would change.

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Old 02-21-2013, 07:51 PM   #708
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Someone make a thread "In hindsight, I would not change a thing". Then there's the people that wouldn't change a thing batfreakforever, lol.

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Old 02-21-2013, 08:06 PM   #709
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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Where are the fans that would NOT change a thing?
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I'm guessing in the thread that's not about the things that people would change.


Funny stuff.

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Old 02-21-2013, 08:32 PM   #710
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Someone make a thread "In hindsight, I would not change a thing". Then there's the people that wouldn't change a thing batfreakforever, lol.
Yeah I know mate, silly of me to ask.

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Old 02-21-2013, 10:13 PM   #711
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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But to say Bruce found someone to fit his lifestyle...and he changed as soon as he came out of the Pit, it doesn't really make sense that Bruce still went with Selina even when he changed. Are we saying Selina changed as well and that's what Bruce saw in her and that's why they are both seen together at the end?
I've always had the impression that she wanted to change even before he met Bruce (and that's why she was aggressively looking for the clean slate).


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Bruce and Selina's relationship was one of the best things about this film. I criticize TDKR a lot for some things I think it really got wrong, but it also got some big things right. I love the dancing scene with Bruce and Selina in particular. Good stuff.
Me too. I skip a lot of stuff now whenever I re-watch TDKR but I'll never get tired of watching the Bruce/Selina scenes. I wished there was more but I'm glad that we at least got something.


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Old 02-22-2013, 01:20 AM   #712
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Me too. I skip a lot of stuff now whenever I re-watch TDKR but I'll never get tired of watching the Bruce/Selina scenes. I wished there was more but I'm glad that we at least got something.
Ditto. Basically for me Anne Hathaway's Selina is the best thing in TDKR. All of her scenes are a never ending joy to watch.

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Old 02-24-2013, 07:35 PM   #713
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

There was a more persistent internet rumor that Nolan was looking for Sarah Essen at some point.

My "hindsight wish list" involves Sarah Essen. She has tension with Gordon leading up to Bane's takeover, they wind up making sweet love during the occupation, and at the end on the roof of police headquarters she shows Gordon a positive pregnancy test.

This would give Gordon a happy ending similar to Bruce.

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Old 02-24-2013, 08:32 PM   #714
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I wouldn't really call that a happy ending. Barbara takes the kids and leaves because Gordon was trying to build on a lie; that's not to say Barbara stopped loving Gordon or the other way around. The happy ending would've been Gordon and Barbara reconciling since the lie was revealed.

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Old 02-25-2013, 09:03 PM   #715
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I wouldn't really call that a happy ending. Barbara takes the kids and leaves because Gordon was trying to build on a lie; that's not to say Barbara stopped loving Gordon or the other way around. The happy ending would've been Gordon and Barbara reconciling since the lie was revealed.
That's actually a very good point. I predicted Barbara and the kids not being in TDKR due to the whole "Oh Harvey Dent didn't try to kill my son, heavens no!" thing. I called that, but assumed it would allow the introduction of Sarah Essen.

Gordon reuniting with Barbara would have been the better Gordon ending, in retrospect. Thanks, Anno.

Doesn't mean I can't hope Sarah Essen shows up in the semi-inevitable reboot, though.

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Old 02-26-2013, 01:28 AM   #716
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They missed the opportunity for a Leon nod.

"Commissioner, Bane's army is rumored to be hiding in the sewers."

"Get me everyone."

"What do you mean everyone?"

"EEEEEEVVERRRRYYYYYOOOOOOONE!

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Old 02-26-2013, 05:53 AM   #717
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In hindsight, I would have loved to see Bruce actually need to be Batman in a personal sense. It's set up pretty well in Begins, but in following films he's clearly just looking for a way out the whole time.

Bruce Wayne is a man driven to fight crime because of his past, and to me has an obsession with justice that borders on madness. It strikes me as pretty out of character that Bruce threw in the towel after Rachel died. It would have been more compelling that Batman continued to fight the good fight for 8 years with increasing police interference. The way it is in TDKR, Bruce comes off as a quitter, and is only lured back into the cape after he himself is robbed.

There is plenty of stupid ***** in TDKR, but the above really gets under my skin because it harms the title character. I'm not even saying what is presented is unrealistic, but in a film like this you need your hero to be pro-active or they'll become unsympathetic.


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Old 02-26-2013, 10:57 AM   #718
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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In hindsight, I would have loved to see Bruce actually need to be Batman in a personal sense. It's set up pretty well in Begins, but in following films he's clearly just looking for a way out the whole time.

Bruce Wayne is a man driven to fight crime because of his past, and to me has an obsession with justice that borders on madness. It strikes me as pretty out of character that Bruce threw in the towel after Rachel died. It would have been more compelling that Batman continued to fight the good fight for 8 years with increasing police interference. The way it is in TDKR, Bruce comes off as a quitter, and is only lured back into the cape after he himself is robbed.

There is plenty of stupid ***** in TDKR, but the above really gets under my skin because it harms the title character. I'm not even saying what is presented is unrealistic, but in a film like this you need your hero to be pro-active or they'll become unsympathetic.
He didn't quit because of Rachel, and he couldn't continue the fight for 8 years because there was nothing to fight against. This Batman was more about organized crime than the small timers because that's where it begins. That's the root of the problem. There was no organized crime to fight against in the 8 years.

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Old 02-26-2013, 12:01 PM   #719
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In hindsight, I would have loved to see Bruce actually need to be Batman in a personal sense. It's set up pretty well in Begins, but in following films he's clearly just looking for a way out the whole time.

Bruce Wayne is a man driven to fight crime because of his past, and to me has an obsession with justice that borders on madness.
This.

Quote:
He didn't quit because of Rachel, and he couldn't continue the fight for 8 years because there was nothing to fight against. This Batman was more about organized crime than the small timers because that's where it begins. That's the root of the problem. There was no organized crime to fight against in the 8 years.
Which, in itself is pretty unrealistic, and kind of missing the point of the concept of Batman. Nolan did his own thing. It works as its own thing. The existing mythology's take is far more compelling, layered, and powerful.

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Old 02-26-2013, 12:04 PM   #720
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Bruce did need Batman in TDKR. He needed to go out at night and that's why he went out even when his body was way past his prime from BB/TDK and he didn't care if he died once he stepped out, as Alfred even acknowledged. I thought it was clear that Bruce needed Batman as he stayed away from the cape and cowl while the Dent Act cleaned the streets. Once something bad happened, boom...Batman returns and Bruce was just waiting for that moment to happen.

And still...people think he died because of Rachel. If Nolan or both brothers do commentary for the trilogy, they need to exclaim that he did not quit because of Rachel while commentating on TDKR, lol.

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Old 02-26-2013, 02:20 PM   #721
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He didn't quit because of Rachel, and he couldn't continue the fight for 8 years because there was nothing to fight against. This Batman was more about organized crime than the small timers because that's where it begins. That's the root of the problem. There was no organized crime to fight against in the 8 years.
He had plenty to fight. A Batman only interested in organised crime is unsympathetic to me. His parents were killed in a random mugging, and there would still be plenty of death and violence in the streets occurring while Bruce sits idly by. Complacency isn't a likable trait in a superhero, and he even let things slide out of the suit, allowing good causes to go unfunded. Him wallowing in self-pity for 8 years may be realistic enough, but it's not particularly compelling.

Didn't say Bruce quit because of Rachel, just that it was odd that he'd quit after she died. He lost his future to the injustice he dedicated his life to eradicate. Surely that would galzanise a man like Bruce to try even harder. Again, it's about being pro-active. For such a minor change in the script, the character would have been much more interesting.

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Which, in itself is pretty unrealistic, and kind of missing the point of the concept of Batman. Nolan did his own thing. It works as its own thing. The existing mythology's take is far more compelling, layered, and powerful.
Yeah, pretty much.


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Old 02-26-2013, 04:02 PM   #722
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In hindsight, I would have loved to see Bruce actually need to be Batman in a personal sense. It's set up pretty well in Begins, but in following films he's clearly just looking for a way out the whole time.
This is definitely part of Nolan's Batman. He's itching to get back to being Batman at the beginning of TDKR, and his thoughts of it being HIS city to protect are explored in TDK with the idea of there being a rise in Batmen. He's always looking for a solution to his original mission statement, but he clearly enjoys/needs being Batman, as an addict does. He knows he needs a way out, but he doesn't really know how to not need it until he learns to embrace the truth and learn from it, not try to fight it. Also, Nolan's Batman actually grows up and is able to let go of his need for it since it's not a serialized concept where they need him to stay obsessed, which is a very welcome change from the borderline psychotic version of Bruce we usually get.

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Old 02-26-2013, 04:43 PM   #723
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This is definitely part of Nolan's Batman. He's itching to get back to being Batman at the beginning of TDKR, and his thoughts of it being HIS city to protect are explored in TDK with the idea of there being a rise in Batmen. He's always looking for a solution to his original mission statement, but he clearly enjoys/needs being Batman, as an addict does.
I would buy into this more if he hadn't gone on a voluntary sabatical for 8 years, far longer than his time as Batman.


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Also, Nolan's Batman actually grows up and is able to let go of his need for it since it's not a serialized concept where they need him to stay obsessed, which is a very welcome change from the borderline psychotic version of Bruce we usually get.
I do enjoy my Batman forever fighting, but it was nice to see him get a resolution.

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Old 02-26-2013, 04:45 PM   #724
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He had plenty to fight. A Batman only interested in organised crime is unsympathetic to me. His parents were killed in a random mugging, and there would still be plenty of death and violence in the streets occurring while Bruce sits idly by. Complacency isn't a likable trait in a superhero, and he even let things slide out of the suit, allowing good causes to go unfunded. Him wallowing in self-pity for 8 years may be realistic enough, but it's not particularly compelling.

Didn't say Bruce quit because of Rachel, just that it was odd that he'd quit after she died. He lost his future to the injustice he dedicated his life to eradicate. Surely that would galzanise a man like Bruce to try even harder. Again, it's about being pro-active. For such a minor change in the script, the character would have been much more interesting.
The basis of the crimes in Gotham City, or at lost the most of it, is because of the mobs. Go back to Batman Begins with Rachel's speech to Bruce where she speaks of mob bosses like Carmine Falcone that literally creates guys like Joe Chill that become so desperate for cash and/or drugs that they find themselves having to mug citizens like Thomas and Martha Wayne. It's not that Bruce sat idly by for those eight years. He helped for about a year cleaning up the real root of the problem that ended up costing the lives of his parents and the Dent Act continued forward where Batman was not needed anymore and that's why Bruce retired the cape and cowl, but he watched and, desperately, waited for when Gotham needed Batman again.

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Old 02-26-2013, 05:12 PM   #725
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This.



Which, in itself is pretty unrealistic, and kind of missing the point of the concept of Batman. Nolan did his own thing. It works as its own thing. The existing mythology's take is far more compelling, layered, and powerful.
It's more of a matter of applying logic to it. If you look at the very simple concept of Batman too long, you see a rich boy with daddy issues using his money to beat up the poor and mentally sick who are symptoms of a society that Bruce Wayne (could be) arguably contributing to when he spends all his money on fighting symptoms instead of the root causes. Then it gets into a whole class warfare thing.

Nolan made his Batman's mission much more methodical. He not only partners with the cops and DA, he performs surgical strikes meant to completely demolish organized crime and set up a political climate for democratic and legislative change. I'd say a little less "unrealistic" than a guy who fights crime for decades and, usually, fails to see the bigger picture.

But that is the beauty of the comics. YOu can take it a step out of the logical and make it more of a mythological, elemental thing. That is kind of what TAS and even Burton did. Both are fine, but I can see why Nolan wanted to come up with an actual strategy. Also, in the comics, Batman is part of a bigger sci-fi world where the problems extend beyond the criminal. Again, Nolan boils it down to a war on crime. He then creates a fantastic situation that would make the war semi-winnable. It is an interesting alternative.

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