"I am Doom...What Gods Dare Stand Against Me"---The official Dr. Doom Thread

[bubbadoom]

Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin

Because its the only near-logical way to develop his hatred for Reed. And they definitely should touch on the origin. "Learn nothing from ASM"?? Just because you didnt enjoy it doesnt mean the rest of us didnt want to see a new look at Spidey's origin. When i see a reboot i want it to be a reboot.

I don't think I ever said I did not like ASM - but I did think the first hour was a complete waste of time and I guess I missed the "new look" at his origin because it seemed to be pretty much the same thing - except that he had less to do with the death of Uncle Ben - which seemed odd...

What I would hope they are learning from ASM is the poor box office this "reboot" provided - the weakest of the series if I recall correctly. THAT is a lesson any studio should take to heart.

[bubbadoom]

Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin

Because its the only near-logical way to develop his hatred for Reed. And they definitely should touch on the origin. "Learn nothing from ASM"?? Just because you didnt enjoy it doesnt mean the rest of us didnt want to see a new look at Spidey's origin. When i see a reboot i want it to be a reboot.

Sure, tie Doom into the FF's origin - what better way to help differentiate the reboot from the first series than to do the exact same thing again...!

[pr0xyt0xin]

Im already done arguing with you.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin

Im already done arguing with you.

But he's right pr0, not only is your idea not the actual origin, it does look very much like the first movie. It wouldn't really be a new look at the origin at all. And, to let you know....I've never seen ASM, so that isn't my reasoning.

[bubbadoom]

Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin

Im already done arguing with you.

was that an argument - I thought we were having a discussion, perhaps a spirited one, I guess a disagreement, but an argument...?

[Incrediblejeff]

I think it would be a cool twist if they made Doom the protagonist,and show the Fantastic 4 as the villains in his POV.It could be a super villain movie with an origin and everything.It probably has no chance of happening,but I would love it.

[pr0xyt0xin]

Doom is involved in the origin in Ultimate Fantastic Four. Now please dont berate me for bringing that up because i dont even like the ultimate universe. But many MANY people are saying Annihilus and the negative Zone should be involved in the F4 reboot origin. Which i agree could be cool. Certainly more interesting than a cosmic anomaly in space. In the same origin story, Reed and Doom worked together in college on the Negative Zone portal. Is that so inappropriate? Doom can still be the heir to the Latverian throne and a sorcerer and a gypsy whose talents are outsourced for a scientific endeavor of this magnitude. Like i said, "involved" in their origin. His origin is completely separate. I see no problem with that.

[Dark Raven]

Originally Posted by pr0xyt0xin

Overall, I think he should just be the height of human perfection. He should be incredibly intelligent, physically fit, probably plays the piano or something weird, and, raised by gypsies he should take advantage of their magics and weaponize it into powerful sorcery.

He should indeed be portrayed as far more intelligent than Stark. He should develop the armor (not specifically as a weapon like Iron Man, but to contain/enhance his overly destructive sorcery) and an army of "doombots" or something similar.

His voice should be extremely pronounced, even if they have to do it bodiless like Bane, and it should definitely be accented. Preferably Eastern European. Latveria is important, but whether the citizens fear him, respect him or are mind-controlled by him is up for creative debate, so long as its done well.

He should be included in the F4 origin, but that is NOT where he should gain his powers.

And how is playing the piano and weird in the same sentence? Are you suggesting Doom being able to play the piano is not something normal?

I'm trying to imagine a scene with all these thousands of parents taking their young children for piano lessons:

Mother: "Come on Tommy, you're going to start playing a weird instrument."

Tommy: "But Mother, I could end up a ruthless dictator should I proceed!"

[pr0xyt0xin]

Well Doom is a pianist. I just think its weird that we even know that about him. Its not like him playing the piano makes him a better supervillain.

[pr0xyt0xin]

This forum is ridiculous btw. No where else on SHH do i have to explain myself so ridiculously thoroughly.

[Willie Lumpkin]

Originally Posted by Incrediblejeff

I think it would be a cool twist if they made Doom the protagonist,and show the Fantastic 4 as the villains in his POV.It could be a super villain movie with an origin and everything.It probably has no chance of happening,but I would love it.

I wouldn't go that far, but I would like to see them spend some time on Doom as a child as with FF Annual #2. The backgrounds of many dictators are actually very similar to what Kirby and Lee showed us there ( I suspect that they both had more than a passing interest in Hitler and probably spent some time studying how he became what he became ).

People like Hitler, Stalin, Saddam Hussein etc. often share certain developmental elements. People who grow up to become ruthless dictators were often very poor as children in societies that had great divisions in status and power between the rich and poor. Dictators often have abusive or absent fathers.

And many dictators can also claim that some elements of their society are better because of the strict structure they provide.

A Doom that isn't a simple evil charicature and one that is based on other ruthless leaders - who are often loved by many of those who live under their rule, and truly believe that their countries are better with them than they would be without - could be very interesting.

Unfortunately many people (particularly the suits at Fox) don't truly recognize the depth of some of the things Stan Lee and Jack Kirby did and they only see and understand the most superficial elements.

[Dark Raven]

Playing the piano does make Doom a better supervillain in one way. But it's not in his villainous plots, but just the way he carries himself. It gives him more of a classical air of dignity. I imagine he would be like the Bond villain Drax (Michel Lonsdale) in Moonraker where he was playing something like Moonlight Sonata by Beethoven while lost in reverie. The only other instrument I can imagine Doom playing is the violin. And it would be all classical music - no jazz or rock 'n' roll.

A villain like Doom would never play a brass or wind instrument or the drums. They're probably too undignified. And a cello, double bass or any other string instrument would be too unweildy.

[Spider-Vader]

On the topic of the origins, I think the next Fantastic Four movie should go over the origins again just because no one liked the original movies. People liked the original Spider-Man movie (I'm not one of them), so they already saw Spidey's origins. No one liked the FF movies, so if the reboot is good it would hopefully attract more viewers; some of which wouldn't know about the team's origin.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by Spider-Vader

On the topic of the origins, I think the next Fantastic Four movie should go over the origins again just because no one liked the original movies. People liked the original Spider-Man movie (I'm not one of them), so they already saw Spidey's origins. No one liked the FF movies, so if the reboot is good it would hopefully attract more viewers; some of which wouldn't know about the team's origin.

That's not exactly true....the first movie did very well. Fanboys didn't like it, but a good majority of the regular moviegoers that I know, and have seen on other message boards enjoyed the first movie. They definitely found problems with it, but it not being the actual origin was not their problem, considering they didn't know what the actual origin was. So, your statement is a pretty big generalization. People found problems in the casting, in the writing, in the horribly childish scenes, etc....but I would find it hard to put "it wasn't the origin of the original comics" was probably not one of their complaints.

[bubbadoom]

Originally Posted by Spider-Vader

On the topic of the origins, I think the next Fantastic Four movie should go over the origins again just because no one liked the original movies. People liked the original Spider-Man movie (I'm not one of them), so they already saw Spidey's origins. No one liked the FF movies, so if the reboot is good it would hopefully attract more viewers; some of which wouldn't know about the team's origin.

They should just touch upon the origin in the same way The Incredible Hulk did and that's about it - lets not waste too much of this second chance going over the same ground again.
Some characters are defined by their origins [Iron Man, Spider-Man, Bat Man] while others are not.
The FF's origin really does not have that much to do with who they are, it's just how they got their powers. Reed was smart before the accident, Ben was his pal, Sue his girl, and Johnny her brother.
I don't need to see how they met, bla bla bla, take a lesson from FF #1 and the first Burton Bat Man, just start with them as heroes and give us a quick flash back to show the origin [space flight, Negative Zone, what ever].

While I did not hate the first Fox FF films, there certainly is room for improvement.

[Incrediblejeff]

Personally I would be fine with a great retelling of the origin story.There's a lot of potential that hasn't been tapped with their story and could make for a great movie.Plus the less association of the last movies the better imo.

[bubbadoom]

Originally Posted by Incrediblejeff

Personally I would be fine with a great retelling of the origin story.There's a lot of potential that hasn't been tapped with their story and could make for a great movie.Plus the less association of the last movies the better imo.

Does anyone associate the Incredible Hulk with the Ang Lee Hulk? I don't think so. It's pretty clear that they are two different takes on the character that don't exist within the same continuity, etc. I think folks would be able to do the same with an FF reboot.

What "untapped potential" of the FF origin are you speaking of? I thought that was one of the few things that stood out as being done right. I am not saying that it could not be improved but I would hate for what may be our last attempt at an FF movie [for the foreseeable future] to be bogged down with covering the same ground that has already been covered decently.

Again, look at ASM - close to one hour wasted getting us back to the point we should have been at from the start - a few short flash backs would have given us what little "new" information that was presented. At least with Spidey, we knew going in that Sony was going to give us more than one movie in this new series - not so with Fox and the FF.

[pr0xyt0xin]

The first half of ASM was the best part imo. In the same way The Count of Monte Cristo has retold the origin of Edmond Dantes in everyone of the dozen film adaptations that have graced the screen since the dawn of cinema. The origin is arguably the most integral part of a superheroes life. Having gone without seeing Peter as a powerless loser before he became a hero wouldve cheapened it for me. Seeing Thing before ever seeing Ben would do the same imo.

Regarding the Hulk v TIH, yeah many people are still foolish enough to think they are related. But beyond that I absolutely love TIH. Its one of my favorite films (not just CBMs) and you better believe I wouldve loved to see Ed Nortons take on Bruce Banners complete origin.

[metaphysician]

I say, save Doom for the sequel. Let the first movie deal with the FF's new origin, and be their chance to grow. Then you can have Doom be the obligatory "second movie villain who totally chews the scenery."

[Incrediblejeff]

Originally Posted by bubbadoom

Does anyone associate the Incredible Hulk with the Ang Lee Hulk? I don't think so. It's pretty clear that they are two different takes on the character that don't exist within the same continuity, etc. I think folks would be able to do the same with an FF reboot.

What "untapped potential" of the FF origin are you speaking of? I thought that was one of the few things that stood out as being done right. I am not saying that it could not be improved but I would hate for what may be our last attempt at an FF movie [for the foreseeable future] to be bogged down with covering the same ground that has already been covered decently.

Again, look at ASM - close to one hour wasted getting us back to the point we should have been at from the start - a few short flash backs would have given us what little "new" information that was presented. At least with Spidey, we knew going in that Sony was going to give us more than one movie in this new series - not so with Fox and the FF.

I think the origin was pretty bland for the most part in the original movie.I mean there is alot of potential storytelling wise.You could show them meeting in college with Doom.Ben tranforming into The Thing for the first time and his emotional devolopment.Hell,have them all develop as more than just one dimensional characters in general.I think their origin is more than they just get on the spaceship and BLAM superpowers.

I don't think an origin story would be the worst thing to happen to FF like a lot of people may seem to believe I just think that it can be told a lot better an make for a better movie.I personally think the F4 deserve better.

[metaphysician]

To those who complain about origin stories using up time and getting in the way, I offer an easy(ish) solution: don't have a separate origin, followed by adventure. Have the origin story *be* the adventure. They fly on the experimental space ship, and get zapped, *on the way to somewhere* ( or arriving at somewhere inadvertantly ). They pass through the dimensional portal, get changed, *and land somewhere.* There is no "go home, try to be normal, get pulled into a life of adventure," because they were going out on an adventure to begin with.

[Kelly]

Originally Posted by metaphysician

To those who complain about origin stories using up time and getting in the way, I offer an easy(ish) solution: don't have a separate origin, followed by adventure. Have the origin story *be* the adventure. They fly on the experimental space ship, and get zapped, *on the way to somewhere* ( or arriving at somewhere inadvertantly ). They pass through the dimensional portal, get changed, *and land somewhere.* There is no "go home, try to be normal, get pulled into a life of adventure," because they were going out on an adventure to begin with.

Because to fans of the original comics, that isn't the origin. I can see where you are coming from, but it wouldn't make the fanboys very happy.

[metaphysician]

Then screw the fanboys. On a very real level, they don't matter. A movie lives or dies on how well the general audience embraces it.

Besides which, the purists will hate the movie regardless, simply because of the inevitable changes in adaptation.

[bubbadoom]

Originally Posted by metaphysician

To those who complain about origin stories using up time and getting in the way, I offer an easy(ish) solution: don't have a separate origin, followed by adventure. Have the origin story *be* the adventure. They fly on the experimental space ship, and get zapped, *on the way to somewhere* ( or arriving at somewhere inadvertantly ). They pass through the dimensional portal, get changed, *and land somewhere.* There is no "go home, try to be normal, get pulled into a life of adventure," because they were going out on an adventure to begin with.

I have no problem with the FF's origin being told - but that's been done already so move on.

BATMAN BEGINS worked because the origin had NOT been told before. THE AMAZING SPIDER-MAN suffered because that story had been told recently enough that it's seemed pointless and repetitive.

I for one do not need to see Reed and Ben meet in college to understand why they are life long friends. The idea of an FF movie wasting even more screen time with them without their powers - and thus NOT the Fantastic Four - seems like a sure way to kill it before it starts. THE X-MEN started with Professor X and company up and running, I see no reason why the FF can not do the same.

[Incrediblejeff]

X-Men was sort of an origin in a way though.Rogue's origin and some of Magneto's was told.It also introduced Wolverine into the X-Men.I think an origin can sometimes show more of the characters and give us some understanding of each character is,and show growth and development as well making it more than just an another action film.I wouldn't be upset if they didn't go with an origin.I would just prefer that they did so it can actually be told well in my opinion.Like the Ultimate comics did a really good job of updating the origin of the F4.I think if they took some elements from that (which they probably won't)it would make for an great film.

But yeah were just gonna have to agree to disagree.