The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > SHH Community > Politics

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-21-2013, 04:04 PM   #751
Optimus_Prime_
Banned User
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 5,671
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post
Actually, when it says rifles, it includes all types of rifles, of which "assault" rifles make only a small part. It was only brought up due to a ban on a specific weapon that does very little in terms of death statistics. In that sense, it is stupid.
Rifles is a far more specific category than "blunt objects". Blunt objects is basically anything that is not a knife or a gun, so the fact that guns outweigh blunt objects by a magnitude of nearly 20:1 is a fairly significant knock against guns. Even when you limit it to rifles you still have a large number of deaths, far larger than any one specific blunt object, which is the straw man you and others keep throwing out there.

Optimus_Prime_ is offline  
Old 02-21-2013, 04:35 PM   #752
wiegeabo
Omniposcient
 
wiegeabo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Look behind you...
Posts: 36,384
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

and a shotgun with poor aim will have a lot less collateral human damage than another type of gun with poor aim.

__________________
I don't care about your deathmatches. Don't even ask. I'll just report it as spam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Lantern View Post
90% of people are in love with wiegeabo. The other 10% are liars.
wiegeabo is offline  
Old 02-21-2013, 04:36 PM   #753
Marvolo
Side-Kick
 
Marvolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,236
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
I would much rather have a shotgun, I can shoot and I will probably hit whatever I need to hit much easier than if I had an AR-15...so, give me the shotgun...
This is me as well. My trusty Remington 870 is my go to defense, target, throwdown gun. It can shoot bird shot, buck shot, steel, lead, brass, copper, incendiary, slugs etc. You name it a shotgun can shoot it. I've even seen arrows shot out of shotguns. The smooth bore isn't picky. And, tho they won't pepper a whole wall and hit everything in an 8 foot radius they are much better for people with little experience and limited practice time. They get on target easy.


That being said, I would like to have an AR-15 stored for a rainy day.

__________________
The Most Astounding Fact (Neil deGrasse Tyson, HD):
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


H.E.
Marvolo is offline  
Old 02-21-2013, 06:36 PM   #754
dnno1
Side-Kick
 
dnno1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 12,653
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_ View Post
Rifles is a far more specific category than "blunt objects". Blunt objects is basically anything that is not a knife or a gun, so the fact that guns outweigh blunt objects by a magnitude of nearly 20:1 is a fairly significant knock against guns. Even when you limit it to rifles you still have a large number of deaths, far larger than any one specific blunt object, which is the straw man you and others keep throwing out there.
Actually if you pistol whip somebody to death that would count as a blunt object murder, so even guns and rifles spill into that category it's so general.

__________________
Dno
dnno1 is offline  
Old 02-21-2013, 07:55 PM   #755
Bill
Side-Kick
 
Bill's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Posts: 2,630
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_ View Post
Rifles is a far more specific category than "blunt objects". Blunt objects is basically anything that is not a knife or a gun, so the fact that guns outweigh blunt objects by a magnitude of nearly 20:1 is a fairly significant knock against guns. Even when you limit it to rifles you still have a large number of deaths, far larger than any one specific blunt object, which is the straw man you and others keep throwing out there.
First of all, there is no straw man. Straw man arguments erroneously restate arguments and then attack the restated argument. At best, you've got misunderstanding the nature of statistics or observational selection.

Second of all, I didn't make the argument. There was a graphic posted not too long ago, and by someone else, that had an AR15 and a hammer with numbers for each. Now, neither number more than likely represented the actual numbers of death by each instrument, but the intent of the graphic was that if you're going to ban a specific firearm, which has numbers of deaths so low, then why not another tool that has low fatalities. The numbers on the graphic had rifles, all rifles, being lower than blunt instruments.

We're not discussing "guns," we're discussing a specific firearm that is attempting to be banned, even though it accounts for a very small percentage of deaths by firearms overall. There is no reason to read anything more into it than that, but I see that you've managed to do that anyway, and made a nice little straw man of your own since no one is making the specific argument you stated.

Finally, the overall intent of the graphic was to show the illogic of banning a specific firearm that accounts for so little deaths when there are comparable numbers for other objects, especially given the reasoning of wanting to "save lives." You want to "save lives?" There are a host of things you can ban that have numbers that make firearm deaths look like nothing.

Now, I understand that the argument comparing guns to hammers has been made by politicians and the like, and I can certainly agree that it was erroneously made. But that's neither the argument being made here, nor does it have anything to do with the overall intent.

__________________
What is a Survivalist?
Someone who hates the woods so much that they train to be able to get out of it if they ever happen to be caught out there.
Bill is offline  
Old 02-21-2013, 08:04 PM   #756
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,668
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Well, i's a false equivalency period. Not all blunt objects are designed to kill. Some are. But baseball bats and hammers have primary uses that aren't lethal.

Weapons like the AR-15 have no non-lethal practical application.

The real question is, if we can agree to a right to bear arms, then what are the limitations of said weapons?

On one side you have the people who think tanks should be legal, and on the other side, you have the people who think that anything sharper than a butter knife should be illegal.

Thundercrack85 is offline  
Old 02-21-2013, 08:51 PM   #757
Victarion
Cut
 
Victarion's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Posts: 12,310
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Well, I would say RPG's should be outlawed! AR-15...not very practical for self-defense. The only legitimate person who should own one is a collector. Perhaps a more stringent process for getting AR-15's relative to the background checks etc. for handguns?

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by Colin Trevorrow
But with all this talk of filmmakers “ruining our childhood”, we forget that right now is someone else’s childhood. This is their time.
If you want marvel babbies to stop torchering Idris Elba, copy and paste this into your signature.
Victarion is offline  
Old 02-21-2013, 09:41 PM   #758
fanboiii
♢♦ ᴍᴀᴅ ʟᴏᴠᴇ ♦♢
 
fanboiii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,145
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
on the other side, you have the people who think that anything sharper than a butter knife should be illegal.
This side does not exist.

__________________
DC Rɪsᴇs
fanboiii is offline  
Old 02-21-2013, 09:41 PM   #759
Kelly
The Teach!
SHH! Administrator
 
Kelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 58,783
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvolo View Post
This is me as well. My trusty Remington 870 is my go to defense, target, throwdown gun. It can shoot bird shot, buck shot, steel, lead, brass, copper, incendiary, slugs etc. You name it a shotgun can shoot it. I've even seen arrows shot out of shotguns. The smooth bore isn't picky. And, tho they won't pepper a whole wall and hit everything in an 8 foot radius they are much better for people with little experience and limited practice time. They get on target easy.


That being said, I would like to have an AR-15 stored for a rainy day.
"pump action" will scare the hell out of them before they come in the door.... You may never actually have to shoot the thing. The universal..."get the **** off my property"...

__________________

"HATE, It has caused a lot of problems in this world, but it has not solved one yet."
… Maya Angelou ...

Kelly is offline  
Old 02-21-2013, 09:45 PM   #760
Marvolo
Side-Kick
 
Marvolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,236
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Kelly View Post
"pump action" will scare the hell out of them before they come in the door.... You may never actually have to shoot the thing. The universal..."get the **** off my property"...
Heck yeah. Everyone knows that sound, and what follows it.

__________________
The Most Astounding Fact (Neil deGrasse Tyson, HD):
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


H.E.
Marvolo is offline  
Old 02-21-2013, 11:29 PM   #761
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 14,668
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by fanboiii View Post
This side does not exist.
Oh it does.

Thundercrack85 is offline  
Old 02-21-2013, 11:34 PM   #762
fanboiii
♢♦ ᴍᴀᴅ ʟᴏᴠᴇ ♦♢
 
fanboiii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,145
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thundercrack85 View Post
Oh it does.
Are they the people who voted for invisible Obama?

__________________
DC Rɪsᴇs
fanboiii is offline  
Old 02-22-2013, 06:48 AM   #763
Kelly
The Teach!
SHH! Administrator
 
Kelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 58,783
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by wiegeabo View Post
and a shotgun with poor aim will have a lot less collateral human damage than another type of gun with poor aim.
I would much rather be able to simply point the thing at the person coming at me and pull the trigger, knowing that I'm probably going to at the least, slow them down because I will hit them somewhere. But as I mentioned earlier, the pump action will probably do the trick, and I wouldn't have to pull the trigger, which would be my choice. I think I told this story earlier on here. A "peeping Tom" was peeking through my nieces window, my sister went and got their shot gun. Pumped it once, and the guy almost killed himself trying to get out of the bushes and run as fast as he could. He heard it from outside the house and high tailed it outta there lol, that works for me.

__________________

"HATE, It has caused a lot of problems in this world, but it has not solved one yet."
… Maya Angelou ...

Kelly is offline  
Old 02-22-2013, 08:54 AM   #764
dnno1
Side-Kick
 
dnno1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 12,653
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post
First of all, there is no straw man. Straw man arguments erroneously restate arguments and then attack the restated argument. At best, you've got misunderstanding the nature of statistics or observational selection.

Second of all, I didn't make the argument. There was a graphic posted not too long ago, and by someone else, that had an AR15 and a hammer with numbers for each. Now, neither number more than likely represented the actual numbers of death by each instrument, but the intent of the graphic was that if you're going to ban a specific firearm, which has numbers of deaths so low, then why not another tool that has low fatalities. The numbers on the graphic had rifles, all rifles, being lower than blunt instruments.

We're not discussing "guns," we're discussing a specific firearm that is attempting to be banned, even though it accounts for a very small percentage of deaths by firearms overall. There is no reason to read anything more into it than that, but I see that you've managed to do that anyway, and made a nice little straw man of your own since no one is making the specific argument you stated.

Finally, the overall intent of the graphic was to show the illogic of banning a specific firearm that accounts for so little deaths when there are comparable numbers for other objects, especially given the reasoning of wanting to "save lives." You want to "save lives?" There are a host of things you can ban that have numbers that make firearm deaths look like nothing.

Now, I understand that the argument comparing guns to hammers has been made by politicians and the like, and I can certainly agree that it was erroneously made. But that's neither the argument being made here, nor does it have anything to do with the overall intent.
"Hammers and Bats kill more people than Assault Weapons, so we should be banning Hammers and Bats". That sounds like a straw man to me. You guys want us to beat up on hammers and bats when it is not really clear if they do kill more people.

__________________
Dno
dnno1 is offline  
Old 02-22-2013, 08:59 AM   #765
dnno1
Side-Kick
 
dnno1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 12,653
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Wooden Alligator View Post
Well, I would say RPG's should be outlawed! AR-15...not very practical for self-defense. The only legitimate person who should own one is a collector. Perhaps a more stringent process for getting AR-15's relative to the background checks etc. for handguns?
Well I think the fans of RPG's like "Elder Scrolls" or "Mass Effect" wouldn't be too happy about that.

__________________
Dno
dnno1 is offline  
Old 02-22-2013, 11:40 AM   #766
Jedi-Spirit
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 127
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Forget interpretations and opinions on the second amendment...Those who are against guns, only get what they want if all guns are gone...For this to happen, you have to take guns away...Does anyone want to see that kind of thing happen?...The blood shed will make everyone forget about all the random killings of the past...

Jedi-Spirit is offline  
Old 02-22-2013, 12:43 PM   #767
dnno1
Side-Kick
 
dnno1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 12,653
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi-Spirit View Post
Forget interpretations and opinions on the second amendment...Those who are against guns, only get what they want if all guns are gone...For this to happen, you have to take guns away...Does anyone want to see that kind of thing happen?...The blood shed will make everyone forget about all the random killings of the past...
That's not happening in Australia or Japan...

__________________
Dno
dnno1 is offline  
Old 02-22-2013, 12:55 PM   #768
fanboiii
♢♦ ᴍᴀᴅ ʟᴏᴠᴇ ♦♢
 
fanboiii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,145
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedi-Spirit View Post
Those who are against guns, only get what they want if all guns are gone...
Why do people think this? That's an extreme interpretation. It's not a black and white issue.

It's gun control not gun abolishment.

__________________
DC Rɪsᴇs
fanboiii is offline  
Old 02-22-2013, 01:05 PM   #769
wiegeabo
Omniposcient
 
wiegeabo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Look behind you...
Posts: 36,384
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by fanboiii View Post
Why do people think this? That's an extreme interpretation. It's not a black and white issue.

It's gun control not gun abolishment.
Which people?

The people who think there are people like that, or the people who actually think that way?

__________________
I don't care about your deathmatches. Don't even ask. I'll just report it as spam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Lantern View Post
90% of people are in love with wiegeabo. The other 10% are liars.
wiegeabo is offline  
Old 02-22-2013, 01:11 PM   #770
fanboiii
♢♦ ᴍᴀᴅ ʟᴏᴠᴇ ♦♢
 
fanboiii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,145
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

The people who think there are people like that.

Getting rid of all guns isn't even an option.

__________________
DC Rɪsᴇs
fanboiii is offline  
Old 02-22-2013, 01:12 PM   #771
wiegeabo
Omniposcient
 
wiegeabo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Look behind you...
Posts: 36,384
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

People think that because there are people who want that.

I've seen them on this board.

__________________
I don't care about your deathmatches. Don't even ask. I'll just report it as spam.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Lantern View Post
90% of people are in love with wiegeabo. The other 10% are liars.
wiegeabo is offline  
Old 02-22-2013, 01:16 PM   #772
Marvolo
Side-Kick
 
Marvolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,236
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnno1 View Post
That's not happening in Australia or Japan...
Japan and Australia are not America. Our heritage, culture, and ideas are different from them. Very very very different in regards to Japan. We are a country who in less than 300 years was founded on violent revolution then torn apart by civil war. Our people have been spoon fed a steady diet that it is freedom or death. BS romanticized history is thrown at us. The media stirs up crap for ratings and viewers. People are uninformed. Millions think this country is under constant threat of a violent overthrow by imaginary Hitler. Communism and socialism will sneak up and rape us from behind. Hell on earth will rise. We are the last bastion of God's holy plan for earth. etc etc etc We are a very paranoid people. So what works in another country won't work in another country, because no two countries are alike.

__________________
The Most Astounding Fact (Neil deGrasse Tyson, HD):
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


H.E.

Last edited by Marvolo; 02-22-2013 at 01:27 PM.
Marvolo is offline  
Old 02-22-2013, 01:27 PM   #773
fanboiii
♢♦ ᴍᴀᴅ ʟᴏᴠᴇ ♦♢
 
fanboiii's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,145
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

If they are people who want to get rid of all guns, they are a very tiny group with an extreme opinion. So tiny, they aren't worth arguing against especially when it's not a valid option. That's a strawman.

Police with no guns? Hunting with no guns? No more black market? It's literally impossible and impractical to get rid of all guns. There will always be circumstances when the lethal force of a gun is necessary.

"No guns at all" is not part of the debate.

__________________
DC Rɪsᴇs
fanboiii is offline  
Old 02-22-2013, 01:28 PM   #774
Marvolo
Side-Kick
 
Marvolo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 17,236
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

I was surprised to find out that Switzerland has one of the highest militia gun ownership rates in the world. They require mandatory military service for all males, and when they leave the service they take their guns home. All males who have been conscripted in that population have a firearm during and after they leave the service.

__________________
The Most Astounding Fact (Neil deGrasse Tyson, HD):
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


H.E.
Marvolo is offline  
Old 02-22-2013, 01:47 PM   #775
Kelly
The Teach!
SHH! Administrator
 
Kelly's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Houston, Texas
Posts: 58,783
Default Re: Discussion: The Second Amendment IV

Quote:
Originally Posted by dnno1 View Post
That's not happening in Australia or Japan...
Australia doesn't have near the population, distribution of population, population density, etc. They speak English, that is pretty much what we have in common.

Japan, has all of those things similar to us in their urban areas....but their history, their culture, their entire way of life is unbelievably different from us and to compare us is like apples and oranges.

I'm sorry that is such a ridiculous comparison. You cannot just compare countries, hell you can't even compare us with this issue with Canada. There are soooo many other imporant, imperative, crucial issues that come into play besides some statistics and laws.

__________________

"HATE, It has caused a lot of problems in this world, but it has not solved one yet."
… Maya Angelou ...

Kelly is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:17 AM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. ©2014 All Rights Reserved.