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Old 02-24-2013, 02:08 AM   #101
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

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I was just re-watching Thor today, and I took a moment to pause on the pages of the book Selvig picked up at the library. And on doing that, I paused the movie to read the part on Loki.

"Loki was a shape shifter that could turn into anything he wished. He was far more spiteful, cunning and deceitful than the other Gods in Asgard, which often led him into trouble. Trouble would be created because he loved playing mean and deceitful jokes on others. Eventually, he was seen for what he was and was distrusted. His quick wit and honey tongue inevitably caused the Aesir to forgive him which left room for his role in engineering the death of the god Balder."

So could it be that we didn't see Balder in Thor because he's already dead?
I'd say that is one of the logical flaws of the movie.

Selvig's book tells us about Loki's character and what he did to Balder. Where does all that information come from? From the legends of the Vikings.

However, during the Viking age, Loki was still a child! In the movie Thor AND Loki weren't adults during that era. Was Balder killed by Loki when he was still a child? Probably not. Did Thor all the other things the Viking sagas tell us (fighting the giant Hrungnir, disguising as Freya, fishing for the Midgard Serpent) when Thor was a boy? Not very likely.


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Old 02-24-2013, 02:22 AM   #102
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

Balder could have been away in some other realm during the events of the first movie. I'd rather Balder was a close friend to Thor and they had a brotherly bond, like in EMH.

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Old 02-24-2013, 02:33 AM   #103
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

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I'd say that is one of the logical flaws of the movie.

Selvig's book tells us about Loki's character and what he did to Balder. Where does all that information come from? From the legends of the Vikings.

However, during the Viking age, Loki was still a child! In the movie Thor AND Loki weren't adults during that era. Was Balder killed by Loki when he was still a child? Probably not. Did Thor all the other things the Viking sagas tell us (fighting the giant Hrungnir, disguising as Freya, fishing for the Midgard Serpent) when Thor was a boy? Not very likely.
The Vikings had no real access to the personal lives of various Asgardians nor can we assume their historical documents are accurate.

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Old 02-24-2013, 03:28 AM   #104
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The Vikings had no real access to the personal lives of various Asgardians nor can we assume their historical documents are accurate.
So you mean all the legends (or most of them) aren't true? Interesting idea.

But in the real world, all people familiar with Norse mythology know that Loki is of frost giant heritage. Do all people on earth in the MCU know that? And if they do, why is Loki's heritage common knowledge on earth but a secret in Asgard (only Odin and Frigga knew it before Loki found out).

So Kenneth Branagh created some problems with his version of Thor. There are, however, several explanations how you could solve this problems:

A) All that "myth stuff" isn't true. These stories were made up by the Vikings. Thor never lifted the Midgard Serpent, he never disguised as Freya, Loki never killed Balder. And in the MCU, there is no mythological Viking story that tells of Loki's giant heritage. So the fact that Loki is a frost giant was a secret in Asgard and Midgard.

B) All the "myth stuff" is true. However, it didn't happen to the current versions of Thor, Loki, Odin etc. Ragnarok already took place once, Asgard had been destroyed, all the gods were reborn. Thor in his first life lifted the Midgard serpent (and that's what the Vikings tell us about in their sagas). The current Thor didn't, he was a small boy during the Viking age. The first Loki was a son of a frost giant (so that's the reason why the Vikings and all scholars of Norse mythology knew it), but the current Loki didn't know that this was also true for him.

C) All the "myth stuff" is true, but it didn't take place during the Viking era, but some centuries later. Loki and Thor weren grown-ups then. In the MCU, there are no Viking stories about adult Thor and Loki - all these stories come from the Icelander Snorri Sturleson (who was a Christian and no Norse pagean) who lived in the 12th/13th century. So Snorri knew Thor and Loki when they were adult and wrote down their stories.

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Old 02-24-2013, 05:58 AM   #105
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The Vikings had no real access to the personal lives of various Asgardians nor can we assume their historical documents are accurate.
This.


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Originally Posted by Incredible Hans View Post
So you mean all the legends (or most of them) aren't true? Interesting idea.

But in the real world, all people familiar with Norse mythology know that Loki is of frost giant heritage. Do all people on earth in the MCU know that? And if they do, why is Loki's heritage common knowledge on earth but a secret in Asgard (only Odin and Frigga knew it before Loki found out).

So Kenneth Branagh created some problems with his version of Thor. There are, however, several explanations how you could solve this problems:

A) All that "myth stuff" isn't true. These stories were made up by the Vikings. Thor never lifted the Midgard Serpent, he never disguised as Freya, Loki never killed Balder. And in the MCU, there is no mythological Viking story that tells of Loki's giant heritage. So the fact that Loki is a frost giant was a secret in Asgard and Midgard.

B) All the "myth stuff" is true. However, it didn't happen to the current versions of Thor, Loki, Odin etc. Ragnarok already took place once, Asgard had been destroyed, all the gods were reborn. Thor in his first life lifted the Midgard serpent (and that's what the Vikings tell us about in their sagas). The current Thor didn't, he was a small boy during the Viking age. The first Loki was a son of a frost giant (so that's the reason why the Vikings and all scholars of Norse mythology knew it), but the current Loki didn't know that this was also true for him.

C) All the "myth stuff" is true, but it didn't take place during the Viking era, but some centuries later. Loki and Thor weren grown-ups then. In the MCU, there are no Viking stories about adult Thor and Loki - all these stories come from the Icelander Snorri Sturleson (who was a Christian and no Norse pagean) who lived in the 12th/13th century. So Snorri knew Thor and Loki when they were adult and wrote down their stories.
and possibly this in bold too.... Not completely but to an extent. There would have to be some fiction in the mythology, since it was from spoken tales eventually written down as stories by ancient people, but it may have been based on some real events/characters (real as in, in the MCU) from a time prior to the flashbacks in Thor 1. A previous Ragnarok. The Asgardians either may not be aware what the Midgardians wrote about them in their books or don't consider it truth since they have no recollection of those things happening (except possibly I could see Odin being aware of the past)


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Old 02-24-2013, 07:19 AM   #106
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

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"You've got a mean swing, Point Break."

I think Tony was probably initially dubious about Thor being an alien at all, and was just trying in his head to come up with different explanations; like maybe Thor was a mutant or super who just thought/pretended he was an ancient god from a distant world. But after fighting the Chitauri firsthand and zapping up to space and all, he probably had to quickly reassess.
Hulk and Abom are the only "mutant" type creatures on MCU earth, so it's not like Tony has come across lots of people with powers.

It's just wierd that Tony meets a guy who can fly, summon lightning, crush part of his armor, and not be astounded.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Incredible Hans View Post
So you mean all the legends (or most of them) aren't true? Interesting idea.

But in the real world, all people familiar with Norse mythology know that Loki is of frost giant heritage. Do all people on earth in the MCU know that? And if they do, why is Loki's heritage common knowledge on earth but a secret in Asgard (only Odin and Frigga knew it before Loki found out).

So Kenneth Branagh created some problems with his version of Thor. There are, however, several explanations how you could solve this problems:

A) All that "myth stuff" isn't true. These stories were made up by the Vikings. Thor never lifted the Midgard Serpent, he never disguised as Freya, Loki never killed Balder. And in the MCU, there is no mythological Viking story that tells of Loki's giant heritage. So the fact that Loki is a frost giant was a secret in Asgard and Midgard.

B) All the "myth stuff" is true. However, it didn't happen to the current versions of Thor, Loki, Odin etc. Ragnarok already took place once, Asgard had been destroyed, all the gods were reborn. Thor in his first life lifted the Midgard serpent (and that's what the Vikings tell us about in their sagas). The current Thor didn't, he was a small boy during the Viking age. The first Loki was a son of a frost giant (so that's the reason why the Vikings and all scholars of Norse mythology knew it), but the current Loki didn't know that this was also true for him.

C) All the "myth stuff" is true, but it didn't take place during the Viking era, but some centuries later. Loki and Thor weren grown-ups then. In the MCU, there are no Viking stories about adult Thor and Loki - all these stories come from the Icelander Snorri Sturleson (who was a Christian and no Norse pagean) who lived in the 12th/13th century. So Snorri knew Thor and Loki when they were adult and wrote down their stories.
OR Thor and Loki simply grew up at a normal rate and still did the things it says they did in the myths. Asgardians are extremely long lived but who's to say it takes them centuries to reach adult hood, they might reach adulthood around the same speed as humans.

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Old 02-24-2013, 07:27 AM   #107
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

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So you mean all the legends (or most of them) aren't true? Interesting idea.

But in the real world, all people familiar with Norse mythology know that Loki is of frost giant heritage. Do all people on earth in the MCU know that? And if they do, why is Loki's heritage common knowledge on earth but a secret in Asgard (only Odin and Frigga knew it before Loki found out).

So Kenneth Branagh created some problems with his version of Thor. There are, however, several explanations how you could solve this problems:

A) All that "myth stuff" isn't true. These stories were made up by the Vikings. Thor never lifted the Midgard Serpent, he never disguised as Freya, Loki never killed Balder. And in the MCU, there is no mythological Viking story that tells of Loki's giant heritage. So the fact that Loki is a frost giant was a secret in Asgard and Midgard.

B) All the "myth stuff" is true. However, it didn't happen to the current versions of Thor, Loki, Odin etc. Ragnarok already took place once, Asgard had been destroyed, all the gods were reborn. Thor in his first life lifted the Midgard serpent (and that's what the Vikings tell us about in their sagas). The current Thor didn't, he was a small boy during the Viking age. The first Loki was a son of a frost giant (so that's the reason why the Vikings and all scholars of Norse mythology knew it), but the current Loki didn't know that this was also true for him.

C) All the "myth stuff" is true, but it didn't take place during the Viking era, but some centuries later. Loki and Thor weren grown-ups then. In the MCU, there are no Viking stories about adult Thor and Loki - all these stories come from the Icelander Snorri Sturleson (who was a Christian and no Norse pagean) who lived in the 12th/13th century. So Snorri knew Thor and Loki when they were adult and wrote down their stories.
Or maybe the Asgardians had a "PR man" who told the Vikings to write down those stories, and the stories have little to no basis in the reality of what the Asgardians experienced.

For a character who's based on mythology and pagan gods, Thor has never been "properly" dealt with by Marvel. The elephant in the room has always been that this guy was worshipped as a god by large numbers of humanity, was later described by Christianity as just a lie, and has now come back and proven to the whole world that he definitely exists. So everyone on this planet (and maybe others) is going to want to know just how many OTHER truths in Norse myth (and other pantheons, for that matter --- just wait 'til Hercules shows up in the MCU) were buried by the monotheist Christians.

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Old 02-24-2013, 07:35 AM   #108
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Hulk and Abom are the only "mutant" type creatures on MCU earth, so it's not like Tony has come across lots of people with powers.

It's just wierd that Tony meets a guy who can fly, summon lightning, crush part of his armor, and not be astounded.



OR Thor and Loki simply grew up at a normal rate and still did the things it says they did in the myths. Asgardians are extremely long lived but who's to say it takes them centuries to reach adult hood, they might reach adulthood around the same speed as humans.
Could be. But it's more likely that they grow at a much slower rate.

But even if you were right... in any case, the battle of Tonsberg at the beginning of the Thor movie takes place in 965. If we assume that from that point on the war between Asgardians and Jotuns probably still took a couple of years until Odin was victorious and if we keep in mind that Thor and Loki still were children after that victory, then during most of the Viking Age (which ended in the 11th century) there were no adult Thor and Loki.

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Old 02-24-2013, 08:03 AM   #109
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Could be. But it's more likely that they grow at a much slower rate.

But even if you were right... in any case, the battle of Tonsberg at the beginning of the Thor movie takes place in 965. If we assume that from that point on the war between Asgardians and Jotuns probably still took a couple of years until Odin was victorious and if we keep in mind that Thor and Loki still were children after that victory, then during most of the Viking Age (which ended in the 11th century) there were no adult Thor and Loki.
The Viking Age ended in the late 11th century so there's plenty of time between 965 and the latter 1000's. So even if it takes Asgardians around 50-60 years to reach adult hood Thor and Loki would still have plenty of time to do those things.

Personally I'm not buying that it takes Asgardians centuries to reach adulthood which is reasonable since there is no prove that they do.

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Old 02-24-2013, 08:26 AM   #110
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Gosforth Cross
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gosforth_Cross

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The Gosforth Cross has elaborate carvings which have been interpreted as representing characters and scenes from Norse mythology. The Gosforth Cross was first identified in 1886 by the amateur antiquarian Charles Arundel Parker in his book The Ancient Crosses at Gosford and Cumberland. He demonstrated that the cross showed scenes described in the Poetic Edda.[1] Those include images identified as:
Loki bound with his wife Sigyn protecting him.
The god Heimdallr holding his horn.
The god Vķšarr tearing the jaws of Fenrir.
Thor's failed attempt to catch Jörmungandr, the Midgard Serpent.
The cross also has Christian symbolism, including a depiction of the crucifixion of Christ. The combination of Christian and Norse pagan symbolism on the cross may be evidence of the use of pagan stories to illustrate Christian teachings.[1]
The cross is 4.4 metres tall and made out of red sandstone. It is estimated to date from 920-950 and is still in fairly good condition. The importance of the Gosforth Cross (as well as the Irton Cross) caused the Victoria and Albert Museum to have replicas made in 1882.[2] They are on display in the Cast Hall at the museum. In 1887, the Rev. William Slater Calverley commissioned a replica life-sized copy of this cross and erected it in the churchyard at Aspatria, Cumbria.[3]
The church also has important hogback tombs, and what appears to be a fragment of another cross, showing the god Thor fishing.
The attack on the Viking Village in Thor 1 occurs in 965 AD. After this cross is estimated to have dated back to. Any myths the images on the cross would have had to happen well prior to this, to have these images added at all. Not that they couldnt completely ignore this in the MCU, just saying, the Vikings and their gods were around well before 965, and it seems like they would be pretty severely changing history to say that was not the case.

If the Asgardian's had a PR guy telling the Vikings what to write, needless to say Loki got seriously screwed in that deal. (literally) I'd almost like a joke about that in MCU, like "what the Hel have they been writing about me?! BAH! I will destroy them all!" Besides the fact that the Aesir/Asgardians, are not the nicest and most honorable of gods in the real mythology. So hardly stuff I'd think the Asgardians would want spread about them.


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Old 02-24-2013, 08:58 AM   #111
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

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The Vikings had no real access to the personal lives of various Asgardians nor can we assume their historical documents are accurate.
the Asgardians or the Viking documents?
one there different eras of Viking myth not to mention areas of the world.
THEN there's the little thing called the Ragnarok that wipes the slate clean ever so often. Whose to say that certain Vikings didn't heard stories from the Asgardians thinking they stories may not be THOUSANDS of year apart?


not trying to start anything just bring up some points that can explain away different stories.

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Old 02-24-2013, 10:07 AM   #112
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The Viking Age ended in the late 11th century so there's plenty of time between 965 and the latter 1000's. So even if it takes Asgardians around 50-60 years to reach adult hood Thor and Loki would still have plenty of time to do those things.
Agreed. 50-60 years is plenty of time.

But the 11th century is also the period when most of the Vikings became Christians.

It would be an interesting phenomenon that during the period of time when one of the most important Viking gods was most active on earth, most of his followers converted to another religion. It looks like as if the Vikings were not really impressed by Thor...

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Old 02-24-2013, 10:34 AM   #113
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Agreed. 50-60 years is plenty of time.

But the 11th century is also the period when most of the Vikings became Christians.

It would be an interesting phenomenon that during the period of time when one of the most important Viking gods was most active on earth, most of his followers converted to another religion. It looks like as if the Vikings were not really impressed by Thor...
Or they considered Thor to be Jesus? *shrugs*

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Old 02-24-2013, 10:41 AM   #114
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Or they considered Thor to be Jesus? *shrugs*
No--scholars think that the Balder character might have been inserted into the stories to be a Jesus figure. But Thor in the myth predates the 11th century and the Christianization of Scandinavia (and this fictional Battle of Toenberg) by several centuries.

They think that the Thor's Hammer pendants became popular as a reaction by adherents of this Norse religion to Christians wearing crosses. (And some molds were crafted so that they could form either Thor's Hammer pendants or crosses--merchants trying to serve all market segments!)

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Old 02-24-2013, 10:43 AM   #115
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Well, thank God in the MCU mythos nobody performed human sacrifices in honor of Thor.

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Old 02-24-2013, 10:49 AM   #116
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

vaguely remember that happening tho, not sure of the issues been years and I never got it back after floods took my collection

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Old 02-24-2013, 11:50 AM   #117
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

Was it in the Ultimates by any chance?

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Old 02-24-2013, 12:46 PM   #118
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I believe it was an older comic in the mainstream continuity that showed Thor being very shocked when he learned that the Vikings performed human sacrifices for him.

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Old 02-24-2013, 02:15 PM   #119
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That makes no sense, Pagan Thor doesn't accept human sacrifices, he is god of the common man.

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Old 02-24-2013, 02:31 PM   #120
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That makes no sense, Pagan Thor doesn't accept human sacrifices, he is god of the common man.
Then that's the reason why he was shocked...

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Old 02-24-2013, 06:40 PM   #121
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

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Gosforth Cross
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gosforth_Cross



The attack on the Viking Village in Thor 1 occurs in 965 AD. After this cross is estimated to have dated back to. Any myths the images on the cross would have had to happen well prior to this, to have these images added at all. Not that they couldnt completely ignore this in the MCU, just saying, the Vikings and their gods were around well before 965, and it seems like they would be pretty severely changing history to say that was not the case.

If the Asgardian's had a PR guy telling the Vikings what to write, needless to say Loki got seriously screwed in that deal. (literally) I'd almost like a joke about that in MCU, like "what the Hel have they been writing about me?! BAH! I will destroy them all!" Besides the fact that the Aesir/Asgardians, are not the nicest and most honorable of gods in the real mythology. So hardly stuff I'd think the Asgardians would want spread about them.

The obvious answer for things that appear to be discrepancies between Norse myth/history and the Asgardians of the MCU is that the films are an alternate universe/timeline from actual human history. The comic books already changed the myths and history to suit their own purposes. Now it's clear that the films have, as well. The history of the MCU diverges from actual history in many ways, simply because these are science fiction/comic book movies, not historically accurate ones.

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Old 02-24-2013, 07:20 PM   #122
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

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Hulk and Abom are the only "mutant" type creatures on MCU earth, so it's not like Tony has come across lots of people with powers.

It's just wierd that Tony meets a guy who can fly, summon lightning, crush part of his armor, and not be astounded.



OR Thor and Loki simply grew up at a normal rate and still did the things it says they did in the myths. Asgardians are extremely long lived but who's to say it takes them centuries to reach adult hood, they might reach adulthood around the same speed as humans.
Bingo. Bingo. Bingo.

The whole cycle of ragnarok would probably be a bit confusing to casual viewers, as I have tried to explain it to my friends. We know thor is over 1000 years old, even in the MCU. I assume everything written about them, has indeed happened.

Opposed to Ragnarok being a cycle, I feel it is just a prophecy, the destruction of all the nine realms. Period.

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Old 02-24-2013, 07:30 PM   #123
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

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The Viking Age ended in the late 11th century so there's plenty of time between 965 and the latter 1000's. So even if it takes Asgardians around 50-60 years to reach adult hood Thor and Loki would still have plenty of time to do those things.

Personally I'm not buying that it takes Asgardians centuries to reach adulthood which is reasonable since there is no prove that they do.
I am with ya dude.

I dont think it's proportional. A human being, who lives, say...on average, 85 years, reaches adulthood by 20-25 years old. that is around 1/4 of their life time.

Now, if you are a being who lives for 2000 years. that doesn't mean it takes you 500 years to reach adult hood. They probably go through childhood quickly. In terms of years on the face, and physical aging, if it ever gets revealed, I'd bet the 1000 year old MCU thor has looked like this since he was 30-35 years old.

Thor is older than Loki. We'd assume Loki was born around 965. The end of the viking age took place from the years, late 900s, all the way up to around 1170, if I recall and scotland broke from viking control around the 12th century. If it takes an asgardian 40 years to reach adulthood, then that means Loki would be an adult by 1000+ 10 years. Thor, by the year 1000, is probably closer to, idk, 60-100 years old. If these beings, who are JUST becoming adults, come to earth, and do things for the first time which results in the writing in 1000, then it is totally reasonable to assume that the myth in the MCU was written by the same people.

Nothing at all suggests otherwise

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Old 02-25-2013, 08:57 AM   #124
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

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So you mean all the legends (or most of them) aren't true? Interesting idea.

But in the real world, all people familiar with Norse mythology know that Loki is of frost giant heritage. Do all people on earth in the MCU know that? And if they do, why is Loki's heritage common knowledge on earth but a secret in Asgard (only Odin and Frigga knew it before Loki found out).

So Kenneth Branagh created some problems with his version of Thor. There are, however, several explanations how you could solve this problems:

A) All that "myth stuff" isn't true. These stories were made up by the Vikings. Thor never lifted the Midgard Serpent, he never disguised as Freya, Loki never killed Balder. And in the MCU, there is no mythological Viking story that tells of Loki's giant heritage. So the fact that Loki is a frost giant was a secret in Asgard and Midgard.

B) All the "myth stuff" is true. However, it didn't happen to the current versions of Thor, Loki, Odin etc. Ragnarok already took place once, Asgard had been destroyed, all the gods were reborn. Thor in his first life lifted the Midgard serpent (and that's what the Vikings tell us about in their sagas). The current Thor didn't, he was a small boy during the Viking age. The first Loki was a son of a frost giant (so that's the reason why the Vikings and all scholars of Norse mythology knew it), but the current Loki didn't know that this was also true for him.

C) All the "myth stuff" is true, but it didn't take place during the Viking era, but some centuries later. Loki and Thor weren grown-ups then. In the MCU, there are no Viking stories about adult Thor and Loki - all these stories come from the Icelander Snorri Sturleson (who was a Christian and no Norse pagean) who lived in the 12th/13th century. So Snorri knew Thor and Loki when they were adult and wrote down their stories.
He's saying that they are second, third, forth, fifth, ect... hand accounts of the the actual events. They're not 100% accurate. Think of it like the Movie Lincoln. The movie isn't 100% accurate to what ACTUALLY happened during that time period but its may be some where in the ball park. Plus even if they where children they would still be at lease one or two hundred years old.You don't' really know how quickly they age to there eloquent teen and young adult stages.

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Old 02-25-2013, 09:07 AM   #125
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

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Hulk and Abom are the only "mutant" type creatures on MCU earth, so it's not like Tony has come across lots of people with powers.

It's just wierd that Tony meets a guy who can fly, summon lightning, crush part of his armor, and not be astounded.
Tony can take anything in his stride , even if it defies all his scientific beliefs.

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