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Old 02-24-2013, 04:04 PM   #101
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Default Re: "By The Goddess!": The Official Storm Discussion

I just don't think it's going to happen. And I'm not even sure I want it to.

I am ready for a reboot. Like I said, I am sick of Wolverine And Them. And they've ruined Storm pretty much beyond repair. Ditto for Scott since they are intent on keeping him in Logan's shadow.

Just start over.

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Old 02-24-2013, 04:18 PM   #102
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but a reboot doesnt mean Fox will put Logan on a secondary role, so we would be on the same scenario, he.

Fox can learn from their past mistakes while still using the same cast.

ok, we know some actors arent exactly like their comic versions, but Singer and co. could still do an amazing job with the whole cast, and doing a great script with amazing action sequences.

No comic movie will be perfect to the fans, so now that we have a big and famous cast both to fans and general audience, why not using at least for one last time?

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Old 02-24-2013, 04:25 PM   #103
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Why Is fox bothering with the Wolverine and Days of future past If they want to reboot.
Studios don't care about giving series one last outing they just reboot.

And what makes anyone think wolverine wouldn't be major character In a reboot.

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Old 02-24-2013, 05:34 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by marvelrobbins View Post
Why Is fox bothering with the Wolverine and Days of future past If they want to reboot.
Studios don't care about giving series one last outing they just reboot.

And what makes anyone think wolverine wouldn't be major character In a reboot.
I have to agree with this. Fox already had the chance to reboot with First Class and instead they choose to bring back cast of the original trilogy. Why bother? Like marvelrobbins said studios are not interested in giving a laat outing for an old cast they just reboot. I think Fox are using DOFP as a way to either

1) Connect the first class series with the original trilogy series whilst allowing first class to do its own thing and continue the franchise.
2) reinvigorating the original trilogy series and continuing the franchise with that.
3) both

But I don't see Fox completely rebooting and starting from scratch. They have invested too much into the franchise by that point for them to start over.

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Old 02-24-2013, 05:54 PM   #105
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Those are so minor. Most of your points don't make her a leader, and some of them make her look like a bad one.
You didn’t ask me to list major points. You asked me to list where she was a leader.

I did.

I never said that she was portrayed as the best leader ever, or that it was the best example of a leader we’ve seen. I don’t believe that ANY of the portrayals in the X-Men franchise have been perfect.

I simply said that she was portrayed as a leader. Because people were saying she hadn’t been.

Quote:
1. She's a teacher. Just like all of the other X-men. The only difference in this movie is that only she and Wolverine are able to teach. And Wolverine dominates the danger room session.
It doesn’t matter. That is a position of leadership. It’s also a consistency of her character between three films, and it shows how her role evolves from classroom teacher to outright mentor of X-Men in battle.

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It doesn’t matter whether he dominates it. She is clearly starting to take on a leadership role. This is the beginning of that arc for her character.
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2. She fails because Wolverine undermines her "leadership."
No, she fails to make Wolverine listen to her at that point (and later, it is revealed that he has learned his lesson). But her simply making the attempt to be a leader, through displaying leadership qualities IS being a leader.

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3. Wolverine is ultimately justified at the end of the movie, like you point out. Storm didn't teach or lead Wolverine.
No, they’re BOTH justified at the end of the movie, because they learn to work together, and they learn from each other.

And yes, she did teach him, because at the end of the battle, he flat out says “We work as a team”, which were her words to him earlier in the film, and what she was trying to get him to understand. He has learned from her. He is also shown considering her words about “Are you ready to do what you need to do when the time comes”, and he obviously acts on that at the end of the movie when he kills Jean.

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4. And Beast has to shut her up due to her insensitivity. Does she even mention the cure again in the movie?
No, Beast doesn't "shut her up". He simply offers an opposing viewpoint, because the point of the scene is to present both sides of the issue. Just because she didn’t mention the cure again doesn’t mean she didn’t display leadership qualities in that scene.

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5. Of course Storm leads them through the mist... she controls the weather! Using her powers doesn't equate leadership.
You and I both know that she wouldn’t need to be in front of Logan in order to control the weather.

I’m not using the fact that she used her powers to explain her being a leader. I’m pointing out that leading him off the X-Jet and into the area, in itself, equates leadership. He’s following her. It’s subtle, but its there.

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6. Very, very minor.
So it’s minor. Its still there. He still listens to her. Its still a leadership quality displayed, and it is still the actions of a leader.

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7. Her Eulogy was out place considering how little Xavier and Storm interacted outside of X3. But when all the better developed characters are gone, just give the leftovers to storm.
At this point, it just sounds like you’re reaching to make her look like she’s not doing any leading.

Please tell me, how in the hell is Xavier’s only surviving/available original student who is still working directly with the X-Men giving the eulogy and message about carrying on to his students “out of place” in this film?

The reasons for her leadership are irrelevant. The fact that she’s acting like a leader is relevant. She’s clearly acting as a leader in this scene.

Sometimes people who weren’t top dog have to step up and lead when they’re called on, or when there aren’t other options. It’s a valid portrayal of leadership. Logan wasn’t giving the speech and talking about carrying on Xavier’s dream. Beast wasn’t, either.

Storm was.

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8. Best moment of leadership, however it's completely shallow. The movie never explores how it affects her to keep it open. Why was there such doom and gloom over the school closing if Storm can just say one sentence and the school stays open?
I would imagine the movie didn’t explore that because its not relevant to the overall plot. The franchise never really explored that about Xavier, either.

What do you mean why was there such doom and gloom? Because of the possibility of the school closing and Xavier’s dream ending...

You didn’t ask me for deep moments of leadership. There haven’t been a whole lot of truly “deep” moments in this franchise, or in most superhero movie franchises, frankly.

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9. Completely uncarring, unsympathetic, and unlikable... but yeah I guess it was leader-ish.
No, she’s not uncaring. She’s the one who realizes what Jean means to Logan and helps him to realize and face that, and the decision he’s going to have to make regardless.

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10. Grasping at straws. They don't show her preparing or motivating the students. Again, it's all Wolverine. He has the leader speech... she does absolutely squat and takes the backseat to Wolverine. And she comes across as cold again.
Grasping at what’s called “subtlety”. A teacher with her students, dressed for a real battle, instead of the faux battle she was in with them at the beginning of the film. It’s a small moment. It’s still a moment of leadership.

And yes, Wolverine has the “leader speech”. That’s because Wolverine is more suited to motivating them for battle, and coming from someone who initially thought Xavier’s dream was a joke, it’s more powerful coming from him to hear him say “Let’s fight for their dream”.

Also, Storm ALREADY SAID THAT during the eulogy, and also showed her desire to keep the dream going when she kept the school open, so by having Wolverine give the speech, the writers avoid redundancy by having a different character espouse Xavier's ideals instead of just one of them. And let’s not forget…Wolverine is a true warrior, he’s seen battle, etc. It makes sense for him to give the "harden yourselves for battle" speech there.

Storm is the emotional core of the team. Wolverine is the battle leader. That's what the movie presents, and that's what ends up happening.

Who cares if she comes across as cold? That’s been part of her character since X-MEN.

Quote:
11. Minor. She pilots the jet in X2 also. And they were all using their powers. It's Wolverine with the strategy, telling everyone to hold the line.
But she doesn’t, in X2, pilot the jet into battle.

She doesn’t make the first “attack” in a battle, or lead her whole team into battle.

The fact that they were all using their powers doesn’t matter when determing who shows leadership qualities. Storm is the first person onto the battlefield, and the first to strike against the enemy.

Quote:
12. Storm learns from Wolverine, but did Wolverine learn from Storm at all?
Yes. Because, as I’ve already pointed out, at the end of the battle, he realizes they have to work as a team, which is a concept he was rejecting at the beginning of the movie. It is the concept Storm was trying to get him to understand at several points during the film.

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13. The movie ends with her as headmistress, but it's not developed at all.
Uhhh…that’s because the movie was ending. You asked me to point out examples of leadership, not “well developed ongoing storylines about Storm’s leadership".

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As far as her personality goes, I'm not buying the "different aspects of her personality" bit.
Why?

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There isn't anything consistent between the three aspects.
Yes there very much is.

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She's scared and insecure, then she's angry, and I don't even know what she was in X3.
Yeah, that’s called “different emotions and thoughts”. People have those. They don't always think one way.

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Whereas someone like Cyclops, who had less screen time than her in the movies, is consistent and when he acts the way he does in X3 he's justified.
And when Storm changes the way she acts in each film, SHE’S justified as well. You’re so one-sided and biased about this that it’s not funny.

Pay attention to what they show. Throughout the franchise, she is depicted as an often quiet, somewhat angry person, quite capable of great power, who shows that she has a compassionate side to her, and also that she has some fear and anger over mutant bigotry. This is seen over the first two films, and elements of it are seen in the third movie as well.

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I have to agree with you. Storm has been the most lazily written character in the entire trilogy.
I disagree. She’s had some of the best, most relevant emotional character work of the trilogy and some of the more creative uses of power as well. She’s been underwritten, to be sure, particularly in X-MEN, but she has not been lazily written compared to the other ensemble characters.

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At alcatraz all logic points to Storm being the one giving orders but instead it is Logan. It just does my head in this franchises obsession over wolvie
No…actually it makes far more sense for Logan to give orders, since he has more experience in battle.

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Old 02-24-2013, 06:03 PM   #106
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Brilliant post, The Guard.

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Old 02-24-2013, 06:25 PM   #107
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I disagree. She’s had some of the best, most relevant emotional character work of the trilogy and some of the more creative uses of power as well. She’s been underwritten, to be sure, particularly in X-MEN, but she has not been lazily written compared to the other ensemble characters.



No…actually it makes far more sense for Logan to give orders, since he has more experience in battle.
I agree with most of the stuff you said The Guard and you have managed to sway me with your argument but there is one point I must disagree on. Whether Wolverine has more experience in battle or not it should have been Storm leading the team. She has experience and as a mainstay x-men member has been in her own fair share of battles. Besides, If Storm is capable of teaching the team how fight in a battle at the beginning of the movie then she should be more than capable of leading them at the final battle. She should have been giving orders.

I mean technically speaking Wolverine has more experience than Cyclops but would it be justified for Wolverine to be giving orders over Cyclops if he were present in the movie? No because he is the team's field leader. Same goes for Storm. If you put Storm and Wolvie in a fight either Storm would win or it would be an even match Logan has no advantage over Storm that would give him the right to lead the team over Storm.

It was just another opportunity for the writers to push Wolverine to the forefront again.

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Old 02-24-2013, 06:27 PM   #108
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even during times In COmics where storm and wolverine on both on team without Xavier around STorm Is technically the leader and wolverine still plays a major role.There has even been conflicts between them due to him not wanting to follow her orders.

Even If you think Wolverine and not storm was leader during the climix there Is proceed for Wolverine In charge from comics.In runup to fall of Mutants crossover Wolverine had to take charge.

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Old 02-24-2013, 06:44 PM   #109
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even during times In COmics where storm and wolverine on both on team without Xavier around STorm Is technically the leader and wolverine still plays a major role.There has even been conflicts between them due to him not wanting to follow her orders.

Even If you think Wolverine and not storm was leader during the climix there Is proceed for Wolverine In charge from comics.In runup to fall of Mutants crossover Wolverine had to take charge.
I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. I'm not talking about the comics. I was saying that after everything that X3 was building up to in terms of making Storm a leader it should have been her giving orders to the team at the climax. It didn't progress Storm's arc properly to have her take orders from Wolverine.

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Old 02-24-2013, 06:48 PM   #110
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If you have to try so hard to explain and justify a character's portrayal, and reach for examples of her leading like "she walked in front of Wolverine" than they clearly failed to give a satisfying character.

You keep saying they gave her a consistent personality, yet it takes multiple paragraphs to describe it, and even then the differences between the movies are still not justified by the explanation. Why did she change from being scared to being mad? Is she still mad and/or scared in X3? Most of her personality is derived from two or three conversations throughout three whole movies, which makes for a pretty weak character.

I'm glad it worked for some people, but I don't want to settle for Storm as Wolverine's sidekick.


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Old 02-24-2013, 06:50 PM   #111
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I am trying to say there Is precedent for some of things they did In Last Stand In comics
even If they were badly written by the Rothman committee.

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Old 02-24-2013, 07:11 PM   #112
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If you have to try so hard to explain and justify a character's portrayal, and reach for examples of her leading like "she walked in front of Wolverine" than they clearly failed to give a satisfying character.
"Try so hard"??

Okay. I totally enjoy your posts. But you do realize that he whipped your ass here right? He did so in a loving way dripping with gentleness, but nonetheless he made you WERK!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mad Ones
You keep saying they gave her a consistent personality, yet it takes multiple paragraphs to describe it, and even then the differences between the movies are still not justified by the explanation. Why did she change from being scared to being mad? Is she still mad and/or scared in X3? Most of her personality is derived from two or three conversations throughout three whole movies, which makes for a pretty weak character.


He answered all of this succinctly. Is it possible that you're splitting hairs or simply dissatisfied with what are clearly sound, unbiased answers? Why do you think I let him respond to you versus me handling your inquiries? You would've said, "Blah blah LS, we all know you love Storm, etc.," and would've blown me off.

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Originally Posted by Mad Ones
I'm glad it worked for some people, but I don't want to settle for Storm as Wolverine's sidekick.
I couldn't agree with you more. Which is why we need a reboot my friend.

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Old 02-24-2013, 07:38 PM   #113
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"Try so hard"??

Okay. I totally enjoy your posts. But you do realize that he whipped your ass here right?
If anything his examples confirmed that the movie told us Storm was the leader, but all actual evidence that she was is extremely minor or inconsequential. The Guard's version of "subtle" is what I call underdevelopment. Others agree with me, but you don't, doesn't mean my butt is sore

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Old 02-24-2013, 08:01 PM   #114
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If we're right and DoFP ends with a new timeline with Cyclops, Jean, alive and well in the X-Men. And they solider ahead with a First Class sequel and an X4, do people really see Cyclops, Jean and Storm in both series? In addition to Xavier, Magneto and Mystique? It seems like overkill.

If it is indeed their plan to have two movie series after this, that is.

But the timeline for Cyclops, Jean and Storm to be students in 1973 just doesn't work. If they were 16, at the youngest in 1973, they'd be born in 1957. And 43, at the youngest, during the OT.

Now, a FC sequel in the 80's, perhaps...
It is over-kill. The general audience would get tired of two movie series set in different time period and it could really affect the box-office performance of the series. Thats why they just need to move forward with doing a X-Men 4 movie. We have already seen how Prof X met Cyke and Jean. The only one left is Storm and they could just include it as a flashback just like with Jean.

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Old 02-24-2013, 08:03 PM   #115
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but a reboot doesnt mean Fox will put Logan on a secondary role, so we would be on the same scenario
I think he was suggesting a reboot with Marvel Studios and not FOX.

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how cant u see X4 with the amazing cast Fox has and Marvel doing HUGE things with their heroes, Lighting? Lol

if Fox think smaller, they get smaller impacts.

X4 WOULD be a huge hit, regardless of what some fans think about the original cast, their age or whatever.

The original cast has ALL the familiar faces of the tv shows and comics, and if we get Gambit and Jean back, we'd get this:

Cyclops
Wolverine
Storm
Rogue
Gambit
Iceman
Kitty
Beast
Angel
Nightcrawler
Colossus


HOW on earth this movie would fail???

jokes appart, X4 would be huge. Fans and general audience would be shocked and excited to see them all together again after all these years, and once the pics started coming and the teaser trailer, I swear you all, the hype would be crazy, even more than right now with DOFP.
A movie adaptation of Secret Invasion with that roster, would make wonders for FOX!

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Old 02-24-2013, 10:32 PM   #116
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Whether Wolverine has more experience in battle or not it should have been Storm leading the team.
Pay attention to the final battle. It was her leading the team.

She's the first person on the battlefield, and her power useage sets the tone for the final battle. She just didn't bark obvious orders to the soldiers. And heck, that moment could be as simple as the filmmakers realizing that Jackman shouting those orders would sound a lot more authoritative and appropriate than Halle Berry doing so.

Quote:
She has experience and as a mainstay x-men member has been in her own fair share of battles.
In the comics, sure. But not neccessarily in this franchise. In this franchise, Wolverine is the guy with military experience, who has done the lion's share of "battling" that we've seen in this franchise.

Quote:
Besides, If Storm is capable of teaching the team how fight in a battle at the beginning of the movie then she should be more than capable of leading them at the final battle. She should have been giving orders.
There's no "should" about it. You guys are hung up on "someone shouting orders" as if it means anything about what makes a leader. The orders weren't really that important specifically (the soldiers aren't stupid, they were scared and outnumbered, not unable to wage basic combat). Wolverine was just rallying the troops more than he was giving any kind of important tactical orders. It's a hopeful moment in the film.

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I mean technically speaking Wolverine has more experience than Cyclops but would it be justified for Wolverine to be giving orders over Cyclops if he were present in the movie? No because he is the team's field leader.
No, even if Cyclops had been there, if Wolverine said something to the troops, it wouldn't have mattered in the grand scheme of who was leading the X-Men.

Because Cyclops is the X-Men's field leader, not the US Army's.

Wolverine wasn't even really giving the X-Men orders in the scene.

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Same goes for Storm. If you put Storm and Wolvie in a fight either Storm would win or it would be an even match Logan has no advantage over Storm that would give him the right to lead the team over Storm.
...

What?

When did that become a prerequisite for someone to act as a leader?

Quote:
It was just another opportunity for the writers to push Wolverine to the forefront again.
They didn't need to create an opportunity to do that...

Logan has been a main character and received the most focus of all of them this entire franchise. Every development he has received has to do with him accepting his role as a team member with the X-Men, and growing into someone who becomes a mentor and a leader among them. It's not something they pulled out of nowhere in X3 just to secretly give their main star more screentime.

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I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. I'm not talking about the comics. I was saying that after everything that X3 was building up to in terms of making Storm a leader it should have been her giving orders to the team at the climax. It didn't progress Storm's arc properly to have her take orders from Wolverine.
1. X3 didn't build Storm up as a tactical leader. It built her up as the person who would take over from Xavier. Wolverine was built up as the tactical leader.

2. Storm wasn’t taking orders from Wolverine. The soldiers were.

Quote:
If you have to try so hard to explain and justify a character's portrayal, and reach for examples of her leading like "she walked in front of Wolverine" than they clearly failed to give a satisfying character.
Yeah, that's one of the more subtle leadership moments. Let's not pretend that all my examples of Storm's leadership were quite as hard to notice in the film.

Quote:
You keep saying they gave her a consistent personality, yet it takes multiple paragraphs to describe it, and even then the differences between the movies are still not justified by the explanation.
It takes multiple paragraphs to describe it, because, underwritten as she was, the character as presented was still somewhat complex as a character. And yes, the differences between the movies are justified by the explanation.

Quote:
Why did she change from being scared to being mad? Is she still mad and/or scared in X3?
Well, I would imagine if she was scared, it would be because something scared her, and that if she was mad, it was because something made her angry.

Like most people.

That said, regarding the sequences I was referring to...she wasn't actually scared or mad at those moments...she was explaining to characters she was talking to that sometimes she FEELS scared or mad because of the way mutants are persecuted.

Was that really a serious question? Do you not understand how human personalities work?

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Most of her personality is derived from two or three conversations throughout three whole movies, which makes for a pretty weak character.
I don't even know what "most of her personality" means. She has several distinct parts to her personality as a character.

The character is underwritten, and she doesn't have much depth of character, but she isn't weakly drawn or portrayed. She's fairly clearly defined, and very effective as a team member.

Quote:
I'm glad it worked for some people, but I don't want to settle for Storm as Wolverine's sidekick.
She wasn't a sidekick. She and Wolverine were not exactly friends, and she certainly didn't have less "authority" than he did. They were co leading the young X-Men. I don’t understand why this is such a hard concept for some of you to grasp.

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Pretty much.

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If anything his examples confirmed that the movie told us Storm was the leader, but all actual evidence that she was is extremely minor or inconsequential.
Umm...no. Because she wasn't "inconsequential" and her impact on the lives of the X-Men and the students, and the people they were protecting was quite sizeable.

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Old 02-24-2013, 11:16 PM   #117
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Old 02-25-2013, 01:54 AM   #118
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Default Re: "By The Goddess!": The Official Storm Discussion

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Pay attention to the final battle. It was her leading the team.
You're making good points but I have to disagree with you here. Wolverine was the one to lead the team in the final battle. He was the one to rally the team at the end just before the battle and told them to "get together and hold the line"(giving orders) when they got to the prison.

Here's the last battle I found on Youtube. Best quality I could get. Around the 2:24 mark is when he gives the orders like a leader.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

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Old 02-25-2013, 02:09 AM   #119
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It takes multiple paragraphs to describe it, because, underwritten as she was, the character as presented was still somewhat complex as a character. And yes, the differences between the movies are justified by the explanation.

The character is underwritten, and she doesn't have much depth of character, but she isn't weakly drawn or portrayed. She's fairly clearly defined, and very effective as a team member.
I'm sorry, but this just confirms it. You say she's complex, but doesn't have much depth. To me that equals a mess and bad writing. I'm glad you like this Storm, but i want better.

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Old 02-25-2013, 02:42 AM   #120
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Default Re: "By The Goddess!": The Official Storm Discussion

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You're making good points but I have to disagree with you here. Wolverine was the one to lead the team in the final battle. He was the one to rally the team at the end just before the battle and told them to "get together and hold the line"(giving orders) when they got to the prison.

Here's the last battle I found on Youtube. Best quality I could get. Around the 2:24 mark is when he gives the orders like a leader.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:
LOL. The quality of the video is terrible, but I'm glad you posted it. If you continue watching, the video further demonstrates Wolverine's dominance over the rest of the team in the final battle, including Storm. Wolverine is the first X-Man they cut to when, one-by-one, the team notices the cure needles lying on the ground, as though indicating he is the one to first develop the plan to stop Magneto. Then, they cut to Beast. Then, Storm. This is followed by Wolverine saying, "we work as a team," while Storm parrots his earlier advice, noting that "the best defense is a good offense." Then, Wolverine delegates each team member's task, instructing Bobby to take care of Pyro, Storm to provide cover, and Colossus to get him a strike. Finally, Wolverine distracts Magneto so that Beast can inject Magneto with the cure, while Storm is nowhere to be found.

Of course, we all know what happens next. Phoenix rises, and Wolverine declares he is the only one that can stop her and subsequently instructs Storm to leave. Then, Storm's magical wires carry her away, and we don't see her again until after the most Wolverine heavy climax of the trilogy.


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Old 02-25-2013, 02:53 AM   #121
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Default Re: "By The Goddess!": The Official Storm Discussion

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LOL. The quality of the video is terrible, but I'm glad you posted it. If you continue watching, the video demonstrates Wolverine's dominance over the rest of the team in the final battle, including Storm. Wolverine is the first X-Man they cut to, when, one-by-one, the team notices the cure needles lying on the ground, as though indicating he is the one to first develop the plan to stop Magneto. Then, they cut to Beast. Then, Storm. This is followed by Wolverine saying, "we work as a team," while Storm parrots his earlier advice, noting that "the best defense is a good offense." Then, Wolverine delegates each team member's task, instructing Bobby to take care of Pyro, Storm to provide cover, and Colossus to get him a strike. Finally, Wolverine distracts Magneto so that Beast can inject Magneto with the cure, while Storm is no where to be found.

Of course, we all know what happens next. Phoenix rises, and Wolverine declares he is the only one that can stop her and subsequently instructs Storm to leave. Then, Storm's magical wires carry her away, and we don't see her again until after the most Wolverine heavy climax of the trilogy.

I didn't even think to post about those parts, good points. What you said about Storm and her wires had me rolling.

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Old 02-25-2013, 03:13 AM   #122
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Yeah, that's one of those lack of attention to detail moments that bug me. Storm is a wind-rider. It should look like there is more than a draft present. They do a better job of this earlier in the movie, at the Grey household. And Singer does a much, much better job when she lifts herself out of the elevator shaft, despite the awkward pose. This is something that I really hope they improve upon, the next time the character is present and flying.

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Old 02-25-2013, 03:58 AM   #123
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Same here.

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Old 02-25-2013, 08:54 AM   #124
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Default Re: "By The Goddess!": The Official Storm Discussion

Halle at the Oscars... Get a white wig on it, Photoshoppers lol


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Old 02-25-2013, 09:02 AM   #125
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wow, great dress

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