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Old 02-22-2013, 04:42 PM   #201
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Default Re: Superman Lives!

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Originally Posted by nouan View Post
I think Wisher's script was completely his own, if my memory serves me correct. I think his script got into consideration because there was lot's of positive feedback on it in the internet or something.
Ahh thanks for the reply, I just saw it on Supermanhomepage and was like I haven't read this.

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Old 02-22-2013, 06:13 PM   #202
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I'm surprised theMan-Bat isn't into MOS. I'am, and it's because of the new blood being injected in the Superman film franchise. Sure, it's Zod, but it's not like they can't do anything new to that character (and Luthor later on), and I can see Nolan/Goyer/Synder turning him (if the "Earth into New Krypton" is true, which seems to be because of Black Zero) into someone who is doing all of this because he wants his home back, maybe because he failed back then and wants to "undo his sins". Plus, there's robots, and a Superman who is so alienated and isolated, and later has to prove himself to the army and a world that doesn't trust him; all of which is relatable and realistic, because that's what would happen if Superman existed. That's new.

Now, what does that say for me and Superman Lives and Flyby; it's not like those were bad movies in the making, but more work had to be done, though a little for one and a little more for the other. What I mean is: I did a quick read on Strick's script, while I read Gilroy's (though it's been a while), and one thing that I noticed was that it seemed both needed each other: one had great ideas, but also had flaws; the other fixed those flaws, but had it's own that the first one didn't have. Which meant, for me, there needed to be a third script that combined the two and kept what was good in both and completely fixed what wasn't. Which is ironic, given that Gilroy was brought in as a script doctor. While Flyby had a much better second draft, still had the Krypton being alive which I wasn't against, but should've been saved for the sequels to that.

Also, and maybe someone has already realized this, but Lives and Flyby didn't really "die"; their influences appeared in Returns, Smallville, and MOS. You can probably figure out what.

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Old 02-22-2013, 06:24 PM   #203
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Default Re: Superman Lives!

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Originally Posted by Binker View Post
I'm surprised theMan-Bat isn't into MOS. I'am, and it's because of the new blood being injected in the Superman film franchise. Sure, it's Zod, but it's not like they can't do anything new to that character (and Luthor later on), and I can see Nolan/Goyer/Synder turning him (if the "Earth into New Krypton" is true, which seems to be because of Black Zero) into someone who is doing all of this because he wants his home back, maybe because he failed back then and wants to "undo his sins". Plus, there's robots, and a Superman who is so alienated and isolated, and later has to prove himself to the army and a world that doesn't trust him; all of which is relatable and realistic, because that's what would happen if Superman existed. That's new.

Now, what does that say for me and Superman Lives and Flyby; it's not like those were bad movies in the making, but more work had to be done, though a little for one and a little more for the other. What I mean is: I did a quick read on Strick's script, while I read Gilroy's (though it's been a while), and one thing that I noticed was that it seemed both needed each other: one had great ideas, but also had flaws; the other fixed those flaws, but had it's own that the first one didn't have. Which meant, for me, there needed to be a third script that combined the two and kept what was good in both and completely fixed what wasn't. Which is ironic, given that Gilroy was brought in as a script doctor. While Flyby had a much better second draft, still had the Krypton being alive which I wasn't against, but should've been saved for the sequels to that.

Also, and maybe someone has already realized this, but Lives and Flyby didn't really "die"; their influences appeared in Returns, Smallville, and MOS. You can probably figure out what.
Great post, agree 100%

I really cannot wait for Man of Steel, it looks like the Superman film I've been waiting for

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Old 02-24-2013, 04:43 AM   #204
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Default Re: Superman Lives!

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Originally Posted by Binker View Post
I'm surprised theMan-Bat isn't into MOS. I'am, and it's because of the new blood being injected in the Superman film franchise. Sure, it's Zod, but it's not like they can't do anything new to that character (and Luthor later on), and I can see Nolan/Goyer/Synder turning him (if the "Earth into New Krypton" is true, which seems to be because of Black Zero) into someone who is doing all of this because he wants his home back, maybe because he failed back then and wants to "undo his sins". Plus, there's robots, and a Superman who is so alienated and isolated, and later has to prove himself to the army and a world that doesn't trust him; all of which is relatable and realistic, because that's what would happen if Superman existed. That's new.
To each their own. I like how Tim Burton's Superman Lives was rebooting without focusing on remaking the origin, again, and Zod, again, consumed with overly angsty and dark drama. Man of Steel is looking to be Man of Angst. This quote from David Goyer is very telling, "In the case of Blade, he is acting heroically, but the rest of the world thinks he’s a vigilante, as is the case with Batman. I don’t think I’d ever be good to write Superman because it is the opposite…" [The interviewer says, "He's angst free."] David Goyer says, "Yeah, and I wouldn’t know the angle because I’m so angst ridden, so I wouldn’t know what to do with a character like that."
http://www.slashfilm.com/david-goyer...rite-superman/
Goyer explained in his introduction to Geoff Johns' Superman Secret Origin that Geoff Johns' Superman Secret Origin is a big influence on his script. "In which young Clark is told the truth about his heritage. He races out into the night, sobbing, stumbling through the cornfields. Eventually, his foster father, Jonathan, finds him. 'I don’t want to be someone else,' says Clark. 'I don’t want to be different. I want to be Clark Kent. I want to be your son.'" David Goyer says, "Right there in that moment, Geoff contextualized Superman in a way that I’m not sure has ever really been done before. I had an ‘aha’ experience when I read that. For the first time I was able to grasp how lonely Clark must have been when he was growing up. And what a sacrifice Clark must continually make by being Superman. As I write this, I am midway through my first draft of a new Superman screenplay. It’s a task that has stymied many talented filmmakers in the years since Donner’s film. And for all I know, it will end up stymieing me as well. But I’ve got one advantage that the screenwriters who came before me didn’t have– and that’s access to all the wonderful Superman stories written by Geoff Johns– first and foremost being the Secret Origin issues."
http://blastr.com/2010/12/did-david-goyer-give-away.php
Goyer's script reportedly has Clark Kent reluctantly grappling with whether or not he should become Superman.
http://www.uproxx.com/gammasquad/201...eeding-bullet/
I certainly don't want an angst ridden "poor me" Clark Kent being reluctant to become Superman. One of the things that audiences disliked about Singer's Superman Returns was the angst ridden, brooding, moping, sad Superman, rather than an upbeat, positive, inspiring Superman. The majesty of Superman was missing. Cavill's Superman is looking even more consumed with angst than Routh's did.

I prefer an upbeat, positive Superman who actually smiles, exudes warmth, confidence, is recognized as a hero and inspires others, as Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster intended.

I see Superman being feared by the general public as an example of going too far in attempts at "realism," and an attempt to create angst in this case, contradictory to the classic Superman mythos. Even in the early comics by creators Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, Superman was admired by the general public and recognized as a hero.
From Action Comics #1 (1938) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster:

From Action Comics #6 (1938) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster:

From Action Comics #7 (1938) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster:


It makes sense that the majority of the public admire and trust Superman as a hero as traditionally Superman's very public altruistic behavior is established early on. Superman has traditionally publicly used his abilities morally to assist humanity, helping those in need, saving lives in broad daylight, performing acts of charity, and Superman traditionally smiles and is friendly, has a natural Midwestern charm, looks and acts completely human, is outwardly positive, open, doesn't even hide behind a mask, and traditionally gets positive press reports from reporters Clark Kent and Lois Lane. Superman was meant to be a positive role-model, and to be a positive role-model the people must trust in the moral core of Superman.

I prefer to focus on what I enjoy....An uplifting Superman and the fantastical mythic sci-fi elements of Superman are what I enjoy, not an attempt at grounding Superman in dramatic angst in the name of "realism."

I enjoy Tim Burton's Superman Lives because it would have been a wild cosmic sci-fi adventure Superman film with K, Brainiac, the Skull Ship, Menagerie, the LexCorp Luthor, the Plutonian Gnaw Beast, the ShadowCaster, Doomsday, the K-suit, four eyed Lexiac, Brainiac's Beast Brigade, the Thanagarian Snare Beast and a dozen Baby Mutant Spiders, Courtney Cox as Lois Lane, plus Micheal Keaton's Bruce Wayne back in a cameo, and showing an uplifting Superman dedicated to fighting the never ending battle, and discovering his Kryptonian history, saving the planet, secure and upbeat and he would have worn a costume that's pretty faithful to the traditional costume with the red trunks, yellow belt, etc. Plus it would have featured a new Superman score by Danny Elfman.

Superman fighting giant creatures dates back to Superman #12 (1941) "The Beasts of Luthor" by creator Jerry Siegel where Superman battled a Giant Octopus, a pair of Giant Lions and a Giant Reptile. There were also Giant Ants. Tim Burton loves classic giant monster sci-fi movies like the original King Kong and Ray Harryhausen's The Beast from 20,000 Fathoms and It Came from Beneath the Sea, etc., which also influenced Tim Burton on Superman Lives from a movie making standpoint.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Binker View Post
Now, what does that say for me and Superman Lives and Flyby; it's not like those were bad movies in the making, but more work had to be done, though a little for one and a little more for the other. What I mean is: I did a quick read on Strick's script, while I read Gilroy's (though it's been a while), and one thing that I noticed was that it seemed both needed each other: one had great ideas, but also had flaws; the other fixed those flaws, but had it's own that the first one didn't have. Which meant, for me, there needed to be a third script that combined the two and kept what was good in both and completely fixed what wasn't. Which is ironic, given that Gilroy was brought in as a script doctor. While Flyby had a much better second draft, still had the Krypton being alive which I wasn't against, but should've been saved for the sequels to that.

Also, and maybe someone has already realized this, but Lives and Flyby didn't really "die"; their influences appeared in Returns, Smallville, and MOS. You can probably figure out what.
Tim Burton's Superman Lives and McG's Superman Flyby did have some influence on those. Kevin Spacey as Luthor was originally Tim Burton's idea for Superman Lives. Henry Cavill as Superman was originally McG's idea for Superman FlyBy. The Superman FlyBy costume appears to have influenced The Man of Steel costume.

Kevin Smith was brought in by Warners to write the Superman Lives script to Jon Peters' specifications in 1996. Batman Returns script doctor Wesley Strick was brought in by Tim Burton to doctor the Kevin Smith script to Burton's specifications in 1997, the Burton/Strick script was finished in July, 1997, but after Joel Schumacher's Batman & Robin tanked in June, 1997, Warners decided to put Superman Lives filming on hiatus, Dan Gilroy was eventually brought in by Jon Peters to lower the Superman Lives budget down to try and persuade Warners in 1998, but Warners fear of it flopping was the ultimate reason it wasn't made, Warners had a string of flops because of their poor judgement with The Postman, etc. Warners decided to green light Barry Sonnenfeld's Wild Wild West instead in early 1998 thinking it was a definite hit. Wild Wild West flopped in 1999.

In 2001 and 2002 Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace and Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones had been recent hits for 20th Century Fox and The Matrix had been a hit for Warners in 1999, so Warners favored JJ Abrams/McG's Superman FlyBy project (2001-03) featuring a Krypton that doesn't explode and looks like Tatooine in Star Wars, Superman fights using Matrix-style martial arts and Luthor is in the CIA, can fly and also fights using Matrix-style martial arts, and so on, which would have been essentially just a Star Wars/Matrix rip-off. JJ Abrams script changed way too much Superman mythology. McG wanted Johnny Depp as Luthor, Topher Grace as a gay Jimmy, Selma Blair as Lois and Henry Cavill as Superman. Behold, Superman FlyBy's Tatooine Krypton...

McG's Superman FlyBy was trying to cash in on recent hit movie trends of the time and largely ignoring the Superman mythos.

In my opinion the Wesley Strick script that Tim Burton wanted to film was the best screenplay that came out of the Superman Lives era. The Strick script is void of Jon Peters' ridiculous suggestions of a gay robot, polar bears and Superman never flying and never wearing the traditional costume with the red trunks, etc. at all, and Kevin Smith's too comic-booky, ultra-fanboy, silly wink-wink aspects (Deadshot, L-Ron, Batman, etc.), and tongue-in-cheek moments. In the Burton/Strick script he flies. Superman is about hope, optimism, heroism, fun cheer moments. Strength and compassion. That's Superman. The Burton/Strick Superman Lives script actually has plenty of heroic cheer moments. Superman saves an old lady in a wheelchair from being hit by a bus. Superman saves dozens of children from the Plutonian Gnaw Beast at the Luthorworld Amusement Park and Superman comforts a frightened boy ""You're safe now ... Superman says so." Superman saves Lois Lane and Jimmy Olsen and Metropolis from Doomsday. Superman saves Lois and Jimmy from being shot by three looters. Superman saves Metropolis from an arsonist. Superman saves a boy from a bully and asks the boy "Shall I walk you home?" Superman cleverly scams Luthor and Brainiac and regains his powers back. Superman destroys the ShadowCaster and defeats Brainiac's Beast Brigade and their rayguns. Superman saves Lois from the Thanagarian Snare Beast and a dozen Baby Mutant Spiders. Superman defeats Lexiac and the ultra-powerful forcefield and the Skull Ship. Superman rips down the Superman memorial monument with his bare hands, down to the size of a baseball -- then tosses the "ball" to a nearby kid, as a souvenir. Superman makes it clear in the Strick Superman Lives script how his place is here on earth, this is his home, these are his people, he cares for them and he's dedicated to help them, etc. that is faithful and respectful to who Superman is and what he symbolizes. There's also heartfelt romance between Superman and Lois and the love between them is depicted.

The Dan Gilroy script is a restrained, watered-down-lower-budgeted version of the Wesley Strick script. Gilroy's script features less action scenes and cheaper alternatives in action scenes. In the Gilroy script Superman saves dozens of children and Lois's niece in the elevators at Lexcorp and Superman saves a kid from a burning building and Superman saves Lois from Brainiac, instead of Superman saving dozens of children from the Plutonian Gnaw Beast at the Luthorworld Amusement Park and Superman saving more people and Superman saving Lois from the Thanagarian Snare Beast and a dozen Baby Mutant Spiders, etc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePhantasm View Post
I think its possible Cage could have been a great Superman. The problem with Cage is that sometimes he's amazing, and sometimes he's awful. The one thing I'm not convinced about either is his voice... when he speaks there's a cadence that isn't very Superman-esque.
I'm certain Cage would have changed his voice as Superman, and distinguished it from his Clark Kent voice.

He changed his speaking pattern as Big Daddy in Kick-Ass into a Adam West inspired vocal delivery, differing it from his voice as the often soft spoken Damon Macready alter ego.
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

He's a character actor. He changed his voice as Sailor Ripley in Wild at Heart into an Elvis Presley-style voice and even sings.
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

In Adaptation he plays two very different men, screenwriter Charlie Kaufman, a meek, shy, soft spoken and intervened man (essentially the Clark Kent persona), and Charlie’s extroverted, boisterous twin brother, Donald Kaufman.
VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

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Old 02-24-2013, 05:43 AM   #205
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Default Re: Superman Lives!

I'm looking forward to Man Of Steel. Besides, even if he really is moping and pondering if he should be Superman or no, it makes him relatable and sympatethic. And I think it could be human and natural of him to think if he is good for this world or not. And once they get that angst out of the way with this movie, the sequel, should it happen, will most likely have a more upbeat Superman again.

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Old 02-24-2013, 02:16 PM   #206
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Default Re: Superman Lives!

I actually preferred Gilroy's script to Stricks but that's just me. I really liked the first half of Gilroy's script it's just the second half I didn't enjoy as much.

Man-Bat have you ever read William Wisher's script? I've been reading it currently but the dialogue is awful. Just wondered if you knew anything about this?

Also have you read the Batman vs Superman script that Wolfgang Petersen wanted to shoot? If so what's your opinion of that?

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Old 02-24-2013, 02:31 PM   #207
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[QUOTE=theMan-Bat;25248697]I certainly don't want an angst ridden "poor me" Clark Kent being reluctant to become Superman. One of the things that audiences disliked about Singer's Superman Returns was the angst ridden, brooding, moping, sad Superman, rather than an upbeat, positive, inspiring Superman. The majesty of Superman was missing. Cavill's Superman is looking even more consumed with angst than Routh's did.

I prefer an upbeat, positive Superman who actually smiles, exudes warmth, confidence, is recognized as a hero and inspires others, as Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster intended.

I see Superman being feared by the general public as an example of going too far in attempts at "realism," and an attempt to create angst in this case, contradictory to the classic Superman mythos. Even in the early comics by creators Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, Superman was admired by the general public and recognized as a hero.It makes sense that the majority of the public admire and trust Superman as a hero as traditionally Superman's very public altruistic behavior is established early on. Superman has traditionally publicly used his abilities morally to assist humanity, helping those in need, saving lives in broad daylight, performing acts of charity, and Superman traditionally smiles and is friendly, has a natural Midwestern charm, looks and acts completely human, is outwardly positive, open, doesn't even hide behind a mask, and traditionally gets positive press reports from reporters Clark Kent and Lois Lane. Superman was meant to be a positive role-model, and to be a positive role-model the people must trust in the moral core of Superman.

I prefer to focus on what I enjoy....An uplifting Superman and the fantastical mythic sci-fi elements of Superman are what I enjoy, not an attempt at grounding Superman in dramatic angst in the name of "realism."[QUOTE]

Actually, that's not really the case for me. A realistic Superman doesn't show angst, or much of it, but shows something else that grabs audiences: complexity and depth. Sure, he could be uplifting, but we can't ignore that he is an alien, and how that can be reflected back on us. We always feel like we don't belong, and Superman himself has even admitted (from Geoff Johns' Superman and the Legion of Superheroes) that no matter how much change in his life he experiences or not, he still feels like an outsider. Earth One even took a step further by showing a Clark who didn't know what he wanted to be, but it wasn't a superhero. Which, btw, I can never understand why people dislike that plotpoint idea; is it because we know the ending? Because someone whom we know becomes something but before he does he wants to become something else, is believable. I can buy that, as anyone else would. Now, MOS is going to show us something new: a guy who is afraid of hurting people around him, so he becomes isolated. That's new and something we've never seen. Besdies, when I realized that, the one thing that came into my mind was this: Superman's "world of cardboard" speech from JLU.

So yeah, these things that Nolan/Goyer/Synder are doing for Superman; it's not to make him dark and angst-ridden, but to give character complexity and depth to make him more believable in our world.

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Originally Posted by theMan-Bat View Post
In 2001 and 2002 Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace and Star Wars Episode II: Attack of the Clones had been recent hits for 20th Century Fox and The Matrix had been a hit for Warners in 1999, so Warners favored JJ Abrams/McG's Superman FlyBy project (2001-03) featuring a Krypton that doesn't explode and looks like Tatooine in Star Wars, Superman fights using Matrix-style martial arts and Luthor is in the CIA, can fly and also fights using Matrix-style martial arts, and so on, which would have been essentially just a Star Wars/Matrix rip-off. JJ Abrams script changed way too much Superman mythology. McG wanted Johnny Depp as Luthor, Topher Grace as a gay Jimmy, Selma Blair as Lois and Henry Cavill as Superman. Behold, Superman FlyBy's Tatooine Krypton...

McG's Superman FlyBy was trying to cash in on recent hit movie trends of the time and largely ignoring the Superman mythos.
You didn't read the second draft of Flyby, did you?

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Old 02-24-2013, 03:59 PM   #208
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Default Re: Superman Lives!

Didn't we get the 3rd draft of Flyby a few weeks back? I wonder how many drafts there actually were.

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Old 02-24-2013, 06:15 PM   #209
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Didn't we get the 3rd draft of Flyby a few weeks back? I wonder how many drafts there actually were.
There are two: a 2002 one, with the CIA/Kryptonian Luthor; and a 2003 one, with the billionaire Luthor. I have heard of a third draft, but if such a thing exists, I have not confirmed it nor has it been released.

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Old 02-25-2013, 08:41 AM   #210
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Default Re: Superman Lives!

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I'm looking forward to Man Of Steel. Besides, even if he really is moping and pondering if he should be Superman or no, it makes him relatable and sympathetic. And I think it could be human and natural of him to think if he is good for this world or not. And once they get that angst out of the way with this movie, the sequel, should it happen, will most likely have a more upbeat Superman again.
Unlike Spider-Man...

Superman was not intended to be relatable, angst-ridden. Superman is about hope. He was intended to be someone you look up to and cheer for, not someone you relate to. Superman was meant to be better than the rest of us and inspire us to better ourselves. That goes back to the early comics by creators Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster. For example, Action Comics #12 (1939) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster.


Action Comics #8 (1939) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster.

With Superman Lives Nicolas Cage wanted to try and inspire children around the world to better themselves. Nicolas Cage said "The death of Superman and his resurrection will be a part of the story, but I have other points that I want to address. I saw it for me as an opportunity to reach a lot of kids around the world and say something positive. I've never really made a movie for children before, but to me, Superman is an opportunity to reach children all around the world, and to say something to them that I believe. I guess I'm trying to take the judgment out of the way kids treat each other. To me, this project is very important because it's going to affect children around the world. What do I want to see happen to children around the world? I can't claim that I'm really going to be able to do this, but at least I can try. Which is if I can maybe get that little boy to stop teasing that little boy because Superman is different. That's my thought process. It's okay to be different because Superman is different. If one child sees that and says 'maybe I'm Superman' then I've done my job."

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I actually preferred Gilroy's script to Stricks but that's just me. I really liked the first half of Gilroy's script
Seriously? How so? I by far prefer the big budgeted Strick scripted extravaganza.

Strick's script opens with Jor-El fighting Brainiac on Krypton and Kal-El being rocked to Earth as Krypton explodes. I find that far more entertaining than Gilroy's script opening with Superman fighting guys who dumped nuclear fuel rods into a lake.

I don't like Gilroy's script having Clark being hit by a car and not even realizing it, which I regard as a poor attempt at adding humor. I don't like Gilroy's script adding Lois Lane's 10-year-old unnamed niece who was obviously added to make the film more kid-friendly. Gilroy's script adding Brainiac hanging out at a swanky Metropolis nightclub called the Big Bang is ridiculous, obviously added in another attempt to lighten the film and make it more family friendly.

In Strick's script Superman saves dozens of children from the Plutonian Gnaw Beast at the Luthorworld Amusement Park. I find that far more entertaining than the Gilroy script replacing that with Superman saving dozens of children and Lois's niece in the elevators at Lexcorp on Lexcop's Kids Day.

In the Strick script Lois is captured in the web of the Thanagarian Snare Beast and a dozen Baby Mutant Spiders slowly approach her to eat her until Superman can save her, the Gilroy script replaces that with tuxedoed Lexac having dinner on the Skull Ship with Lois and her niece with two goofy looking alien henchmen wearing tuxedos and don't fit them and Superman fights the Snare Beast without Lois in danger. Even K is toy size at the end of the Gilroy script and Superman hands K to Lois' niece and she says, "It's a toy." Warners obviously wanted Superman Lives to be much lighter, more kid-friendly than Strick's script and make it more toyetic.

In his book Burton on Burton, Tim Burton explained, "I was working for a year on script meetings with them, and once you go down that path the script doesn't get better, it becomes committee-ized." I see the result of that in the Dan Gilroy script.

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Originally Posted by BH/HHH View Post
Man-Bat have you ever read William Wisher's script? I've been reading it currently but the dialogue is awful. Just wondered if you knew anything about this?
I've read it. I agree, awful dialogue and awful alterations to the Superman Lives story in 2000 after Burton and Cage had left the project.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Jor-El is the ruler of Krypton with a crystal sword, rather than a scientist. The "S" is the symbol of Kryptonians ruling clan. Tal-Ar is Krypon's Minister of science. Kal-El is rocked to earth by Mal-Ar a bodyguard of Jor-El's. Many Kryptainians escaped Kryptons destruction in Escape Shuttles. Jimmy Olsen is described as very cutting edge with the wildest suit you've ever scene. Superman is described as wearing a shinning golden "S" shield on his chest as part of his normal suit at the beginning on the script. Superman says things like "Hey guys, you got a minute? Damn right. You can sue his ass." Clark and Lois are naked in the moonlight at Mount Rushmore on-top of Jefferson's head and argue about getting married. "Lexy" Luthor has a dim-witted girlfriend named Kitty. "Lexy" has an internet implant called Lexlink in the necks of his Lexmen henchmen and tries to force everyone in Metropolis to get implanted by outlawing AOL so he can build an e-world empire. Brainiac stabs Superman with a large Kryptonite spear. Brainaic's Skull Ship talks. "Lexy" declares himself the new Mayor and declares Superman's funeral an illegal gathering. K (the Eradicator) and the Fortress of Solitude are replaced with the cliched hooded Scarred Man Mal-Ar, and a black spaceship with Lois there. Mal-Ar Scarred Man strips Superman naked. Mal-Ar explains to Superman that many Kryptonians escaped Kryptons destruction in Escape Shuttles and they live in hiding. Awaiting Kal-El's return to build a new world. The K-suit is replaced by a Kryptonian Household Knight suit of armor with a crystal sword. Mal-Ar dies by diving in front of Superman and getting impaled by Brainiac's Kryponite blade. Superman vengefully kills Brainiac saying it's "especially for what you did to me" and destroys the Skull Ship. Superman and Lois leave the Earth to find the other Kryptonians and build a new world. William Wisher's script changed way too much Superman mythology.


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Originally Posted by BH/HHH View Post
Also have you read the Batman vs Superman script that Wolfgang Petersen wanted to shoot? If so what's your opinion of that?
The Batman vs. Superman script (2002) by Andrew Kevin Walker and Akiva Goldsman is terrible in my opinion. All the characters are written way out of character, with Batman officially retired. Bruce Wayne getting married to somebody named Elizabeth Miller. Superman is married to Lois Lane but they’re getting divorced. Superman wanders around sadly in his now empty apartment after Lois Lane left him. On Bruce Wayne’s honeymoon, is wife Elizabeth is killed by a bumblebee dart. Clark Kent asks for some time off from work at the Daily Planet over this “thing with Lois.” Clark Kent has sex with Lana Lang, and shows her the rocketship on the Kent farm. Batman fights the Toyman in Gotham. The Joker was dead and was brought back to life by DNA extraction and a billion dollars. Lex Luthor is in prison. Superman mopes in the rain. Batman says, “So you wanna get a beer?” Superman says, “Maybe a soda or something.” Batman replies, “Oh my God, what is it with you?” Terrible script. Colin Farrell was reportedly cast as Batman, with Josh Hartnett as Superman and Wolfgang Petersen excited to film. I'm glad that did not get made.

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Originally Posted by Binker View Post
Actually, that's not really the case for me. A realistic Superman doesn't show angst, or much of it, but shows something else that grabs audiences: complexity and depth. Sure, he could be uplifting, but we can't ignore that he is an alien, and how that can be reflected back on us. We always feel like we don't belong, and Superman himself has even admitted (from Geoff Johns' Superman and the Legion of Superheroes) that no matter how much change in his life he experiences or not, he still feels like an outsider. Earth One even took a step further by showing a Clark who didn't know what he wanted to be, but it wasn't a superhero. Which, btw, I can never understand why people dislike that plot point idea; is it because we know the ending? Because someone whom we know becomes something but before he does he wants to become something else, is believable. I can buy that, as anyone else would. Now, MOS is going to show us something new: a guy who is afraid of hurting people around him, so he becomes isolated. That's new and something we've never seen. Besdies, when I realized that, the one thing that came into my mind was this: Superman's "world of cardboard" speech from JLU.

So yeah, these things that Nolan/Goyer/Synder are doing for Superman; it's not to make him dark and angst-ridden, but to give character complexity and depth to make him more believable in our world.
Those quotes from David Goyer say otherwise. He said Superman is so angst free that he'd never be good to write Superman and he wouldn’t know what to do with a character like Superman, until he obviously found a reboot of the origin with angst when he read Geoff Johns' reboot of the Superman origin and Goyer had an "aha" experience when he read that about a sad, lonely, angst-ridden Clark who is reluctant to become Superman.

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You didn't read the second draft of Flyby, did you?
I did, I didn't bother to get into that in my post since I prefer to focus on what I actually enjoy. JJ Abrams second draft of Superman Flyby again features a Krypton that doesn't explode (except for a part of it). Jor-El is still the king of Krypton instead of a scientist. Jor-El has an evil Kryptonian brother named Ty-Zor who comes to Earth looking for Superman "Kaaaal-Ellll" like Zod. Ty-Zor has a son named Kata-Zor who is yet another Kryptonian bad guy. Clark meets Lois Lane at a frat party in collage. Lex Luthor is a door to door shoe salesmen who only gains his mastermind knowledge for a Kryptonian touching him and transmitting his Kryptonian knowledge and consciousnesses into Lex Luthor and makes Lex's hair fall out. Jor-El commits suicide. JJ Abrams Superman Flyby changed way too much Superman mythology.

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Old 02-25-2013, 09:07 AM   #211
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Unlike Spider-Man... Superman was not intended to be relatable, angst-ridden. Superman is about hope. He was intended to be someone you look up to and cheer for, not someone you relate to. Superman was meant to be better than the rest of us and inspire us to better ourselves.
Sure, but you can't say being relatable hurts his case? And he can be relatable and inspiring at the same time. Actually if he is relatable it's maybe easier to be inspired by Superman. Does it really matter if Superman is a bit more human? Just because he "wasn't intended" to be something doesn't make it a bad thing.

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Old 02-25-2013, 02:23 PM   #212
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Seriously? How so? I by far prefer the big budgeted Strick scripted extravaganza.

Strick's script opens with Jor-El fighting Brainiac on Krypton and Kal-El being rocked to Earth as Krypton explodes. I find that far more entertaining than Gilroy's script opening with Superman fighting guys who dumped nuclear fuel rods into a lake.

I don't like Gilroy's script having Clark being hit by a car and not even realizing it, which I regard as a poor attempt at adding humor. I don't like Gilroy's script adding Lois Lane's 10-year-old unnamed niece who was obviously added to make the film more kid-friendly. Gilroy's script adding Brainiac hanging out at a swanky Metropolis nightclub called the Big Bang is ridiculous, obviously added in another attempt to lighten the film and make it more family friendly.

In Strick's script Superman saves dozens of children from the Plutonian Gnaw Beast at the Luthorworld Amusement Park. I find that far more entertaining than the Gilroy script replacing that with Superman saving dozens of children and Lois's niece in the elevators at Lexcorp on Lexcop's Kids Day.

In the Strick script Lois is captured in the web of the Thanagarian Snare Beast and a dozen Baby Mutant Spiders slowly approach her to eat her until Superman can save her, the Gilroy script replaces that with tuxedoed Lexac having dinner on the Skull Ship with Lois and her niece with two goofy looking alien henchmen wearing tuxedos and don't fit them and Superman fights the Snare Beast without Lois in danger. Even K is toy size at the end of the Gilroy script and Superman hands K to Lois' niece and she says, "It's a toy." Warners obviously wanted Superman Lives to be much lighter, more kid-friendly than Strick's script and make it more toyetic.

In his book Burton on Burton, Tim Burton explained, "I was working for a year on script meetings with them, and once you go down that path the script doesn't get better, it becomes committee-ized." I see the result of that in the Dan Gilroy script.
This basically sums up what I don't like about the Strick script (although he is abit bias in what he says):

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
Proof That Superman Lives Would Have Made Batman & Robin Look Like The Dark Knight by Rob Bricken



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Proof That Superman Lives Would Have Made Batman & Robin Look Like The Dark Knight
Rob Bricken
We all know that we were once very close to getting a Superman movie directed by Tim Burton and starring Nic Cage, titled Superman Lives. We've heard legends -– that it was based on the Death of Superman storyline, that Superman's outfit was radically redesigned, that it would have been godawful, etc.

And now, one of Superman' Lives' many scripts has apparently surfaced — specifically, the one by screenwriter Wesley Strick, after Kevin Smith was fired. Assuming it's real — and we don't know for certain that it is (although it's certainly banal enough to be authentic '90s Hollywood drivel) — it gives us an insight into the Superman movie we almost had –- and why we should all get on our knees and thank Zod we didn't. Here are some of the most notable travesties from the disaster that was narrowly averted.
The movie begins with a young college professor in some sort of oddly foreign locale. Of course, it turns out it's none other than Jor-El, going to check on I.A.C., the "Intelligence, Artificial, Cybernetic" currently a *****y A.I. in the shape of a glowy ball, but who will eventually surpass ALF as the lamest alien comedian of all time. IAC complains that Jor-El turned him off (although why is he speaking?), while Jor-El says IAC's need for power made him "untenable"

After a bit of chiding on both sides, IAC redubs himself Brainiac ("because [my brain] is so big" the hyper-advanced alien-computer explains], and reveals that he's 1) somehow developed little spider-legs, and 2) drilled down to Krypton's core and is destroying the planet. Brianiac tells Jor-El he'll let Krypton go if Jor-El gives him a mysterious "perfect" AI named "K" that generates its own power. Jor-El politely declines and runs the hell home.

There, Jor-El says some stuff about how since he made Brainiac, Brainiac is kind of his son, but his wife Lana thinks that's dumb. Jor-El readies two ships -– one for his family and K, and one for himself, after he sees if he can stop Brainiac. But as the couple puts K and his baby in the spaceship, Brainiac attacks, and Jor-El is forced to launch the ship before Lara can get into it. After a bit of nonsense about Jor-El being his dad, Brainiac kills Jor-El and Lara, and hops in the other spaceship just as Krypton explodes.

30 Years later! Brainiac is traveling through space with a bunch of alien animals; he's also turned the Kryptonian rocket into a spaceship resembling a skull, in two of the many indications that the movie's screenwriter already seems to have forgotten that Brainiac is technically a robot. Anyways, he finds Earth and locks on its biggest energy source –- a Lexcorp power plant, obviously –- and then he tells one of his alien critters to "fetch his cape!" I'm so serious.

The screenwriter describes Lex as, and I'm quoting here, "the boomer love child of Robert Vesco and Leona Helmsley." Lex is giving a press conference about some doohickey that lead him to discover two alien spaceships landing on Earth 30 years ago, one near Smallville, one in the Arctic. Clark is of course covering the conference. He calls Perry White, who says:

You'll cover Smallville — local boy, human interest, "Hick Town In the Headlines" ... I'll send Lois to the Arctic, she'll think that's fun: longjohns, frostbite, stuck on a tundra with twenty men ...

Clark leaves, and there's some chatter amongst the background character, where it slowly becomes obvious that no one knows Superman is an alien. In fact, they hope Superman finds the alien that landed, and kills it.

The next day, Clark walks to work, and surreptitiously helps people on the way –- he drags a bus about to hit a guy to a stop, he moves a tired delivery boy's papers, and –- I can barely believe I'm about to type this –- he cooks the raw meat a homeless woman is eating from the garbage with his heat vision. That's right. Clark sees a woman eating garbage out of a garbage can, and his solution is to heat up her goddamn food.

At Smallville, Lex Luthor's team of scientists finds a bolt and everyone seems to think it proves the alien thing. Even Clark goes to Ma and Pa Kent's grave to ask them about the bolt… because it turns out Clark doesn't realize he's an alien either. He thought he was a human all this while… and is now beginning to suspect otherwise.

Back in Lexcorp, the power levels are going down; an aggravated Lex heads to a sub-basement and meets Brainiac, who kills a bunch of technicians. Lex -– in full-on toadying mode from Superman II –- asks Brainiac if he's the alien that landed here 30 years ago, and shows him the bolt. Brainiac sees that it's Kryptonian, realizes "K" is here, and presses his holo-sphere against Lex's face, "a strange sort of cyber-kiss." All right then.

In the Arctic, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen and Luthor's Arctic team are somewhat surprised to see Clark Kent walking past. In a blizzard. In his business suit. They make brief small talk, and then Clark continues on. Lois and Jimmy are perplexed, but not as much as they probably should be to suddenly discover their co-worker talking a walk in the Arctic in a suit and tie.

Clark -– who is walking for reasons that are completely unknown –- spies a little glowy crevice, he walks to it, the ice gives, he falls down, and meets K. K gives him History of Superman 101 : his parents, Krypton exploding, etc. And Clark is just stunned to find out he's an alien and not just a regular human who can fly and shot heat rays out of his eyes. After a two minute conversation about the past he never knew he had, Superman leaves K (who, it should be noted, specifically says "I am programmed to protect you," and then doesn't follow him. This will come up again later.)

Back at Lexcorp, an EPA agent is coming to inspect the waste-disposal system. This is apparently a Very Bad Thing, because Lex sends him and his family on an all-expenses paid trip to his amusement park –- Luthorworld — and then Brainiac puts one of his alien creatures on one of the roller coasters to eat him.

The "Plutonian Gnaw Beast" eats some of the track, but Superman catches the roller coasters cars as they fly off, and starts fighting the beast. After knocking it into the water, which Superman realizes it does not enjoy, he flies into the pool, sucks up all the water –- in what would have been the most Superfriends-ian moment of Superman's cinematic career -– and spits it at the monster until it dies. Yes, Superman spits on a monster… to death.

Brainiac quite reasonably wonders why Luthor hadn't mentioned Superman before, quickly deduces who this is, and realizes Earth's yellow sun it was gives him his powers. Meanwhile, Lex is disgusted he's missed a chance to stoke the public's xenophobia against Supes.

A distressed Clark takes Lois on a date to a Japanese Hibachi restaurant, and briefly explains to Lois that 1) he's Superman, 2) he's an alien, and 3) there are some potential reproductive issues, straight out of "Man of Steel, Woman of Kleenex."



CLARK:
One day, you'll want a baby, and I won't be able to give you one — Or, if I can, he's liable to ... who knows. a human carrying a "super baby", he's liable to — who knows, punch his way out -

Lois, for her part, takes this three-part revelation exceedingly well, until she kisses Superman as Clark, and they both realize it's super, super weird (no pun).

Brainiac insists that Superman needs to meet his Doomsday. Doomsday is of course, a tiny alien pet, with his own tiny nametag that says "Doomsday" on it. Lex is skeptical until it bites off the tip of his finger (which Lex also takes surprisingly well). At which point, Brainiac gets his one good line of the movie:

BRAINIAC:
Never pet a thing named Doomsday.

This is totally mitigated by other phrases Brainiac uses, including "Always a bridesmaid, never a bride" and "mano a monster" and "want to hear a lot of Kryptonian shop talk?" and "the sun is about to exit, stage left." Brainiac isn't an AI, he's a goddamn colloquialism machine. Anyways, those last two lines are in regards to Brainiac and Luthor's plan to block the sun, by Brainiac transforming one of Luthor's satellites into a really big disc. It's dumb.

Three days later, Superman feels like he has the flu. At the Daily Planet, Perry White is assigning "life with no sun" stories, where he utters the most reprehensible line in the entire script:

WHITE (as he exits):
Lane, you cover the feminine angle - how the eclipse affects carpooling, grocery shopping, soap viewership, tranquilizer intake.

LOIS:
Yes, Boss.

Remember, this script was written in 1997, not 1937. Fun!

For some reason, Luthor pilots the sunblocker really close to Earth so Superman can see what it is; as weak as he is, he can only fly up enough to take a look at the tech, before crashing back to Earth. Which is when Luthor releases Doomsday.

The script doesn't describes what Doomsday looks like (this concept art is a possibility), but the fight goes pretty much like it does in The Death of Superman comics, in that they both beat each other to death. Except that the scriptwriter insists that Superman kicks Doomsday "with a super-steel-toed boot." Superman wears steel-toed boots. Uh-huh. Oh, and there's this:

LUTHOR teases his hair into a Don King 'do, and crows):
You loved The Thrilla In Manilla!
You dug The Rumble In the Jungle! Tonight, Brainy and I bring you:
The Superman-Stoppa In Metroppa!

The villains from the '66 Batman show would have too much dignity to say that garbage.

Now here's where things get weird. Lois –- seemingly based entirely by Superman's mention of the word "home" when they met in the Arctic –- steals Superman's corpse from the morgue and flies it to the Arctic, where she drops it down the same crevice Superman had found earlier that Lois never, ever saw. While you're pondering that, let me tell you that Lois literally pushes Superman's corpse into the crack, goes home, and crosses her fingers. Oh, and she put a homeless dude's corpse in Superman's coffin. Glad Lex didn't organize an open-casket funeral!

At the Fortress of Solitude, K puts Superman's body in a big tub of Kryptonian bactine or whatever, and then starts flashing memories of Krypton into Supes' mind. Eventually, Brainiac -– who's been hanging out over Superman's crypt waiting for K to appear (because in Kryptonian "protect" apparently means "show up at his grave several days after he's dead") gets frustrated. Brainiac rips open the coffin and is not pleased to discover "a common vagabond" inside.

Superman wakes up –- but now he's not Superman, he's Kal-El! He has no memory of his life on Earth, and only a super-vague notion of Krypton — good job, K! He's also still pretty weak because of the sun thing. So K turns into weird, iridescent armor, which is almost certainly the one being tested out in these horrendous pics. But the armor is even goofier than that, because:

• It has goggles which allow Kal-El to use his x-ray vision"
• The S-emblem is actually a blade –- as in it's got super-sharp edges
• Kal-El can break parts of the S-shield off, and throw them at people — which he does, a lot
• He even has tiny S-shields, which are for all intents and purpose Superman throwing stars
• It can sprout wings like a Stealth bomber

And last but not least, K tells Kal-El that the "S" emblem stands for "Science," which was Jor-El's "passion." This is so dumb, I can barely stand it. Kal-El flies to Metropolis and starts taking care of looters and things, as opposed to, you know, Luthor and Brainiac. When Lois first spots Superman, this is what the script says -– I swear I'm not changing a word:

KAL-EL stands in shadow, intermittently lit by the flickering fires, cloaked in the strange suit, face half-hidden by the x-ray goggles like a hip-hop Phantom of the Opera.

A HIP-HOP PHANTOM OF THE OPERA. God, that sounds like the worst idea for Superman ever, but I'd still watch the hell out of that movie.

Superman doesn't recognize Lois, Lois doesn't recognize Superman, Luthor and Brainiac realize it's Superman pretty quickly, and start bickering. But Brainiac has a plan –- for he and Lex merge the way K and Superman clearly have. Luthor says, "I agree, it's a brilliant merger, bigger than RJR/Nabisco!" The ship fills with what the screenwriter describes as "Kryptonian lounge music" — I'm so serious here -– and they combine. The result: A two-headed dude. Now let the agony wash over you.

BRAINIAC HALF:
Excuse me ... We were supposed to fuse together. Not room together.

LUTHOR HALF:
Hey I'm clean, I don't smoke, I never leave hairs in the sink ...

Oh, there's more:

BRAINIAC HALF:
I always wanted to be part-real!

LUTHOR HALF:
I always wanted to be part-fake!

One more for the road!

LUTHOR HALF'S VOICE:
So what's our new corporate name?

BRAINIAC HALF :
"Brex"?

LUTHOR HALF:
Too hair-care. "Luthiac"?

BRAINIAC HALF:
Too mandolin-maker. "Brainlex"?

Later, Kal-El finds Lois and asks her why he kinda sorta recognizes her. Lois tries to explain, but it's all super-awkward (no pun), and Kal-El gives her his S-shield throwing star and flies off. Lexiac almost instantly captures Lois, where Brainiac's head says:

BRAINIAC HALF:
The Baron of Brilliant, Sultan of Smart, guy who put the "I" in IQ.

He's a robot from another planet! Hee hee!

Proving he's the only person in this film with a lick of sense, Jimmy starts breaking windows until Superman shows up –- because Superman is still focused on those damn looters! -– and tells him Lois has been kidnapped. This ends up being needless, though, because Lexiac broadcasts a message (oh, and of course Superman's K-suit has a retractable earpiece) and says they'll trade Lois for K. Superman counters by asking for the satellite instead of Lois, and the Brainiac Half agrees.

Superman flies up — only to be shot by the Sun Gun Lex had placed on the original satellite. Knowing that Superman is powered by the energy of the sun, but Lex and Brainiac seems to be surprised to realize that a gun that fires the energy of the sun has somehow rejuvenated him. It blasts off Superman's K outfit and restores his normal tights -– what are the odds?! –- except the platinum S-shield blade thing.

Then there's some more nonsense, but it boils down to:

• K sacrifices itself to destroy the Sunblocker thing
• Superman acts sad about this, although K was not at all personable
• Superman flies into Lexiac's Skull Ship to get Lois.
• Lexiac releases the Thanagarian Snare Beast, after having this conversation:

LUTHOR HALF:
That was private property ... My premiums are gonna go sky-high.

BRAINIAC HALF:
And my ever-pressing energy needs will have to be met ... otherwise.

LUTHOR HALF :
Sup on Supe?

BRAINIAC HALF:
You read my RAM-disk ...

• The fight with the Snare Beast does not sound particularly exciting on paper
• The beast gets Lois but she frees herself with the S-throwing-star
• Lois gets sucked out an airlock
• Superman punches Lexiac's two heads simultaneously
• The Snare Beast vomits "Day-Glo Puke" on Superman
• Lexiac does some kind of force-field thing that weakens Superman and stops the monster
• Brianiac tries to lay the "brothers" **** on Superman again
• Superman falls, but Lois catches him because she caught the edge of the ship or something
• Superman powers up with love
• Superman makes Brainiac and Luthor explode with said love

The end. Except for some kids smiling at Superman while he's flying around with Lois. Oh, and also:

SUPERMAN:
Y'know ... We need to set up an appointment with a reproductive endocrinologist ...
(Off Lois' puzzled look)
To see whether we can ... you know, reproduce.

The end, folks!

The script is available over at Superman Homepage [via Den of Geek]


http://io9.com/5981002/proof-that-su...he-dark-knight

Am I correct in thinking that they were going to use Gilroy's script for the shoot?

I'm currently going to re-read the Gilroy script so ill get back to you on what I liked in it

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Old 02-25-2013, 02:23 PM   #213
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Default Re: Superman Lives!

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Originally Posted by theMan-Bat View Post
I've read it. I agree, awful dialogue and awful alterations to the Superman Lives story in 2000 after Burton and Cage had left the project.
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:
]Jor-El is the ruler of Krypton with a crystal sword, rather than a scientist. The "S" is the symbol of Kryptonians ruling clan. Tal-Ar is Krypon's Minister of science. Kal-El is rocked to earth by Mal-Ar a bodyguard of Jor-El's. Many Kryptainians escaped Kryptons destruction in Escape Shuttles. Jimmy Olsen is described as very cutting edge with the wildest suit you've ever scene. Superman is described as wearing a shinning golden "S" shield on his chest as part of his normal suit at the beginning on the script. Superman says thing like "Hey guys, you got a minute? Damn right. You can sue his ass." Clark and Lois are naked in the moonlight at Mount Rushmore on-top of Jefferson's head and argue about getting married. "Lexy" Luthor has a dim-witted girlfriend named Kitty. "Lexy" has an internet implant called Lexlink in the necks of his Lexmen henchmen and tries to force everyone in Metropolis to get implanted by outlawing AOL so he can build an e-world empire. Brainiac stabs Superman with a large Kryptonite spear. Brainaic's Skull Ship talks. "Lexy" declares himself the new Mayor and declares Superman's funeral an illegal gathering. K (the Eradicator) and the Fortress of Solitude are is replaced with the cliched hooded Scarred Man Mal-Ar, and a black spaceship with Lois there. Mal-Ar Scarred Man strips Superman naked. Mal-Ar explains to Superman that many Kryptonians escaped Kryptons destruction in Escape Shuttles and they live in hiding. Awaiting Kal-El's return to build a new world. The K-suit is replaced by a Kryptonian Household Knight suit of armor with a crystal sword. Mal-Ar dies by diving infront of Superman and getting impaled by Brainiac's Kryponite blade. Superman vengefully kills Brainiac saying it's "especially for what you did to me" and destroys the Sull Ship. Superman and Lois leave the Earth to find the other Kryptonians and build a new world. William Wisher's script changed way too much Superman mythology.
Wow we finally agree

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Originally Posted by theMan-Bat View Post
The Batman vs. Superman script (2002) by Andrew Kevin Walker and Akiva Goldsman is terrible in my opinion. All the characters are written way out of character, with Batman officially retired. Bruce Wayne getting married to somebody named Elizabeth Miller. Superman is married to Lois Lane but they’re getting divorced. Superman wanders around sadly in his now empty apartment after Lois Lane left him. On Bruce Wayne’s honeymoon, is wife Elizabeth is killed by a bumblebee dart. Clark Kent asks for some time off from work at the Daily Planet over this “thing with Lois.” Clark Kent has sex with Lana Lang, and shows her the rocketship on the Kent farm. Batman fights the Toyman in Gotham. The Joker was dead and was brought back to life by DNA extraction and a billion dollars. Lex Luthor is in prison. Superman mopes in the rain. Batman says, “So you wanna get a beer?” Superman says, “Maybe a soda or something.” Batman replies, “Oh my God, what is it with you?” Terrible script. Colin Farrell was reportedly cast as Batman, with Josh Hartnett as Superman and Wolfgang Petersen excited to film. I'm glad that did not get made.
Yep we agree again admittedly though I would have loved to have seen Hartnett as Superman, I read in that Superman book Superman vs Hollywood that Hartnett had screen tested (I'm sure it was under Ratner) and he was superb in his screen test.

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Old 02-25-2013, 02:53 PM   #214
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Okay, I finally read the Wesley Strick script for Superman Lives, a script which I was sure would prove that this movie wouldn't have been as bad as it seemed, and it's ****ing bad... the dialogue is really bad... I could hear Nicolas Cage saying that **** tho. And despite the crappy screenplay, I still wish they had made it. It would be such a weird Superman movie, and propably really entertaining. Kinda like Stallone's Judge Dredd. Great production design and campy as **** but someways enjoyable.

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Old 02-25-2013, 03:10 PM   #215
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Okay, I finally read the Wesley Strick script for Superman Lives, a script which I was sure would prove that this movie wouldn't have been as bad as it seemed, and it's ****ing bad... the dialogue is really bad... I could hear Nicolas Cage saying that **** tho. And despite the crappy screenplay, I still wish they had made it. It would be such a weird Superman movie, and propably really entertaining. Kinda like Stallone's Judge Dredd. Great production design and campy as **** but someways enjoyable.
The worst thing was the dialogue one of the reasons I prefer the Gilroy script. Infact if you go on the link I attached in the posts above he points out exactly why the script is so bad.

Like I've said before I wouldn't have minded seeing it but with someone like Jim Caviezal (who at that time was an unknown). I really couldn't stomach Cage as Superman but wouldn't have minded if he had been Jor El. I would've liked either Sandra Bullock or Courtney Cox as Lois Lane and Spacey would've been awesome, I actually liked him in Superman Returns.

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Old 02-25-2013, 04:23 PM   #216
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Default Re: Superman Lives!

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Originally Posted by theMan-Bat
Unlike Spider-Man...
Superman was not intended to be relatable, angst-ridden. Superman is about hope. He was intended to be someone you look up to and cheer for, not someone you relate to. Superman was meant to be better than the rest of us and inspire us to better ourselves. That goes back to the early comics by creators Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster.
Okay, this is where I'm going to fight you on this. Even back then, with Action #1, Superman was suppose to be us: more specifically the meek, outcast kids who no one cared for (even girls), but were actually heroes inside. Over time, Superman became a symbol. We still have that relatability even before MOS: Superman (1978), and yes even I have to admit, Superman II; Byrne, and yes, Lois and Clark; Smallville, yep, and Earth One. And to be very honest: a relatable Superman works. I myself have read "It's Superman!" and I not only found myself relating to Superman, I actually was him. Not even Smallville did that. So the whole "Superman is not suppose to be relatable" thing; you're wrong with that.

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Old 02-26-2013, 05:35 AM   #217
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Sure, but you can't say being relatable hurts his case? And he can be relatable and inspiring at the same time. Actually if he is relatable it's maybe easier to be inspired by Superman. Does it really matter if Superman is a bit more human? Just because he "wasn't intended" to be something doesn't make it a bad thing.
It is a bad thing to me when they alter the characters personality for the sake of trying to create angsty drama. When todays writers portray Superman angst-ridden and feared, then he isn't the uplifting figure is was meant to be, and it becomes difficult to be positively inspired by the character when he isn't portrayed as the positive inspirational figure. Why is bring a character back to it's roots good? To get back closer to what it was meant to be. There is no more "real" version of Superman than the original Golden Age version that was conceived and created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, and that Superman was generally positive, confident, also showed a sense of humor and joy. Snyder's Man of Steel looks, to me, like it lacks the fun, the joy of the best Superman material. The smile moments. So far it looks like it lacks the over all sense of fun of the best Superman stuff. Of course none of us have seen Snyder's Man of Steel film yet, we can only judge it by what we've seen so far. This thread is about Burton's Superman Lives. We should get back on topic.

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This basically sums up what I don't like about the Strick script (although he is abit bias in what he says):
I can't take that mocking douchbaggery bashing of the Wesley Strick script like an insult comic seriously. He even mocks Brainiac having a Skull Ship. He takes quotes out of context to where they make no sense. He also claims such things as "Clark is just stunned to find out he's an alien and not just a regular human who can fly and shot heat rays out of his eyes," which is not true at all if you read the script. Have you read the script yourself? If not, I suggest you read the Strick script yourself, form your own opinion. A reasoned review does not start off with HOLY CRAP WTF. I don't go along with the group think mentality. I research things for myself and draw my own conclusions. Many people allow others criticisms make a decision for them, take that criticism to heart and if they do actually go and read it, do very little but play back the criticisms in their head and look for any perceived negatives in the script to reinforce an already established preconception on it. Then (having read it or not) decide that it sucks. Then, since they’ve decided it sucked, they figure it would be a service to spread the negativity, and henceforth, if they know it or not, attempt to create negative preconceptions in anyone who will even half heartedly listen to them. I view it plainly as allowing others to make up your mind for you.

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Am I correct in thinking that they were going to use Gilroy's script for the shoot?
Tim Burton was going to use the Wesley Strick script dated July 1997, but Warners got scared after Schumacher's Batman & Robin bombed so bad in June 1997, so Warners delayed the filming and had many script meetings, hired Dan Gilroy to rewrite and make the film more kid-friendly and toyetic. Jon Peters and Warners felt Gilroy's script was an improvement but Warners still didn't consider it a guaranteed hit. Tim Burton indicates that he didn't feel Gilroy's committee-ized script changes was an improvement. In his book Burton on Burton, Tim Burton explained, "I was working for a year on script meetings with them, and once you go down that path the script doesn't get better, it becomes committee-ized." The Dan Gilroy script is dated February 24, 1998. By April, 1998 Warner Bros. shut down the production of Tim Burton's Superman Lives and green lit Wild Wild West. Tim Burton signed on to direct Sleepy Hollow by June 1998.

Tim Burton said that nothing he was paid was worth what he went through in trying to get the film off the ground. Merchandising, he said, was the sole driving force behind the movie as far as the Powers-that-be were concerned, who after seeing Nicholas Cage in the classic Superman costume said they wanted to lose the red underpants, and instead wanted to swap them for red shorts (like those of a basketball player), they also were happy to keep the red boots as long as they had a lightning bolt down the side.
http://www.supermanhomepage.com/news...ews-movie/1122

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Originally Posted by BH/HHH View Post
I'm currently going to re-read the Gilroy script so ill get back to you on what I liked in it
I look forward to that.

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Originally Posted by BH/HHH View Post
The worst thing was the dialogue one of the reasons I prefer the Gilroy script.
Tim Burton encourages his actors to improvise their dialogue so a lot of the lines in the script wouldn't have even been in the Superman Lives film. If you look at the Batman and Batman Returns scripts, a lot of the scripted dialogue was changed by the actors improvisations, and most of Batman's scripted dialogue was completely opted by Michael Keaton.

Tim Burton explained on the Batman commentary, "I love working with actors who understand it's really what's in between the lines of the script and all these guys get that. From Beetlejuice, that movie and also Pee-Wee's Big Adventure, I learned that I love actors that are good at improve. I mean, as long as it kept kind of within the spirit and the form of what it is, but real good improvisational actors know that. They find what the character is, the root of what it is, and then you can almost do anything, and I do enjoy that, so I promote it. The real good improvisational actors, it works because they know what the character is and I love doing it, and I've had the opportunity to work with lots of good improvisational actors. Like on Beetlejuice, Micheal (Keaton) was excellent at improve. He comes from improve. Those are the kind of actors I like working with."

Batman Returns script writer Daniel Waters said, "Michael Keaton would go through my script and say, 'I should say less here, I should say less here.' I had so many angry Batman rant speeches, and he's like, 'Batman would never say that. Batman should just say this line right here.'"

Michael Gough said, "Tim very much encouraged me to have ideas about Alfred. 'It's got to be your idea.' Once you've got the idea, you've got a rope to hang on to and then you can go anywhere, and I felt that with Tim that we could go anywhere."

Jack Nicholson said, "There were collaborative ideas on a real level about the material itself. A lot of this movie comes from improvisational inspiration right there actually while your doing it. We work give and take. A lot of what happened in refining the script comes from that kind of fun collaboration."

Robert Wuhl said, "Tim let me play, he gave me that great freedom to let me try things. I'd just suggest things and if I could do them and he'd say, 'Yeah, yeah. Go ahead.' Which was wonderful. In the scene were I walk into the newsroom and the guy shows me the picture of the bat and I say 'What a dick.' Tim loved it. Same thing with 'The curse of the wicker people.' Tim loved it. Another interesting thing is that my character died at the end of the draft. I was suppose to die. Tim said 'Okay, were gonna have him live.'"

Tim Burton's Batman producer Peter Guber echoed Burton's viewpoint, "A script is a blue print, it isn't the Bible, it's a blue print for a movie. It is capable of being changed, and it is changed. Of course actors ad-lib. That's why it's called filmmaking. Your making something. It's the processes that makes the magic."

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Originally Posted by Binker View Post
Okay, this is where I'm going to fight you on this.
A fight? Trying to bait people into a fight is against the rules of these boards.

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Originally Posted by Binker View Post
Even back then, with Action #1, Superman was suppose to be us: more specifically the meek, outcast kids who no one cared for (even girls), but were actually heroes inside. Over time, Superman became a symbol. We still have that relatability even before MOS: Superman (1978), and yes even I have to admit, Superman II; Byrne, and yes, Lois and Clark; Smallville, yep, and Earth One. And to be very honest: a relatable Superman works. I myself have read "It's Superman!" and I not only found myself relating to Superman, I actually was him. Not even Smallville did that. So the whole "Superman is not suppose to be relatable" thing; you're wrong with that.


Superman was created as a friend of the helpless, defender of the weak and oppressed, but he was not the helpless, weak and oppressed. We are intended to admire him, learn from him, but we are not him. He's an alien from another planet. Superman was not suppose to be us, as conceived and created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, we were are not intended to relate to Superman, the super-powered hero from Krypton, but rather to his Clark Kent disguise. He pretended to be one of us as Clark Kent, but he really was not one of us. Look, it's possible to relate to the iconic Superman in some capacity, but he wasn't meant to be a grounded, relatable guy. That was my point. Some contemporary writers try to inject angst into Superman because they realize that as conceived and created, at Superman's core, as David Goyer said, he is angst free. I do not enjoy such an angsty version of Superman. As I said, I prefer to focus on what I actually enjoy. This thread is about Burton's Superman Lives. I advise you to try and get back to the topic of the thread.

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Old 02-26-2013, 05:50 AM   #218
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Its been a while since I read Stricks script but that review pointed out many things that were awful in it I.e. The dialogue although I will admit that reviewer did talk a lot of BS. So I might have to read it again as its been a while but there was a lot I didn't like in it.

Funnily enough I actually liked Kevin Smiths script I think a touch up on that and it could've been a decent movie.

Tbh though the worst aspect of everything Superman Lives was Jon Peters. That guy shouldn't have been allowed anywhere near this movie.

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Old 02-26-2013, 06:51 AM   #219
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Does the Kickstarter doco have a even a vague release date? And what formats will it be released in (ie DVD/Bluray, download only). I don't think any of that's been talked about.

EDIT: Oh, it seems they don't have the full funding yet? Disappointing. But Wesley Strick has confirmed his participation if it goes ahead.


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Old 02-26-2013, 11:31 AM   #220
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I must say theMan-Bat, even if I don't always agree with your posts, they are an enjoyable read.

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Old 02-26-2013, 01:32 PM   #221
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theMan-Bat View Post
It is a bad thing to me when they alter the characters personality for the sake of trying to create angsty drama. When todays writers portray Superman angst-ridden and feared, then he isn't the uplifting figure is was meant to be, and it becomes difficult to be positively inspired by the character when he isn't portrayed as the positive inspirational figure.
Much of your post speaks of Supes in an abstract sense - as cultural icon and metaphor, and with the idealized qualities that are not far removed from certain religious figures. Nothing wrong with that, per se. Indeed, if you were writing a scholarly analysis of Superman as a symbol, it would be entirely appropriate to explore the moral and ethical attributes that the character has accumulated over the decades - and has come to personify as a pop cultural touchstone.

The problem is, Superman also has to function as a character in a set of narratives. And the more he’s delineated as an idealized construct, the less dramatically interesting he becomes. Now when that point is raised, the (petulant?) response is often: “Well, it’s a sad day when virtuousness is considered boring.” But this deflects the issue. Certainly, people are free to worship whomever they want. And they can also compose thoughtful dissertations on how noble and non-boring these wise sages are. But, typically, those sages are not - additionally - pressed into service as action heroes in adventure stories.

Again, if Superman is just a symbol (appearing only on posters and bumper stickers) then idealization works just fine. But if he’s an actual character, then he needs to be treated as such. The over-veneration has been a chronic liability for poor Supes.

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Old 02-26-2013, 01:45 PM   #222
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I must say theMan-Bat, even if I don't always agree with your posts, they are an enjoyable read.
I've got a lot of respect for Man-Bat, the guys got great knowledge. I agree I really enjoy reading his posts too.

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Old 02-26-2013, 08:07 PM   #223
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There are two: a 2002 one, with the CIA/Kryptonian Luthor; and a 2003 one, with the billionaire Luthor. I have heard of a third draft, but if such a thing exists, I have not confirmed it nor has it been released.
The third draft exists. Some years ago a member of the hype posted a brief comparison between Superman Returns and the Third Draft:

- Lex Luthor obtaining Kryptonian technology was a major storyline in the script. Fresh out of college, Luthor was driving cross country for his first job in Metropolis working at some local industrial coroporation, and while stopped in Smallville, witnessed the crashing of Superman's ship. After the Kents scooped up baby Clark as in every other incarnation, Lex found the ship and stole it for himself before Johnathan could return to secure it. This plays into the Kents telling Clark to never use his powers no matter what, and to proceed living like a normal human being, as they know there is someone out there who would be able to identify him. They don't put the fear of god into about his powers like the first draft, but it's made clear they want Clark to live like a normal human being. But anyway, Lex takes the ship, figures out how to adapt the Kryptonian technology, and then buys out his boss and turns the Metropolis Corporation into the Billion dollar company known as Lexcorp, which specializes in military arms development, sonar tech, news forms of stealth flight, etc etc. Not to mention he basically buys the city of Metropolis, including the Daily Planet. There are some funny lines with Perry White and Lois Lane concerning that fact. Lex would then use the Kryptonian technology to call upon the surving Kryptonians to come to Earth and defeat Superman. On a side note, the Lex in this script was a damn creep. Very unnerving almost. Before witnessing the rocket ship crash in Smallville, lex is pulled off to the side of the road, basically writing down notes for his own Mein Kampf. I geuss Luthor has some grand, Hitler like plan that would have played out over the course of the franchise. I really liked how Lex was done here. More on that Later.

- The plane sequence in Superman Returns was basically taken right out of the script. As described in the novel and from all the images and previews Ive seen, it is honestly a shot for shot copy, which isn't a bad thing. The plane sequence in the script was the one of the most stunning visuals Ive ever had in my head, and it should be know different in Superman Returns.

- Superman flying above the world and listening to people's problems, then flying around doing Super deeds was in the script, and might I say one of the best parts about it. Might not be shot for shot, but the idea's came for the scene in Superman Returns came from this script it would seem.

- The heavy emphasis on the romance was there, although with obviously WAAYYYY different storylines. It was the traditional Superman/Clark/Lois triangle, which wasn't a bad thing, not that the Superman Returns love story is bad either.

- The idea of going back to Krypton, with the difference being that Superman leaves for Krypton at the end of the film.

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Old 02-26-2013, 11:54 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by Dr. View Post
Much of your post speaks of Supes in an abstract sense - as cultural icon and metaphor, and with the idealized qualities that are not far removed from certain religious figures. Nothing wrong with that, per se. Indeed, if you were writing a scholarly analysis of Superman as a symbol, it would be entirely appropriate to explore the moral and ethical attributes that the character has accumulated over the decades - and has come to personify as a pop cultural touchstone.

The problem is, Superman also has to function as a character in a set of narratives. And the more he’s delineated as an idealized construct, the less dramatically interesting he becomes. Now when that point is raised, the (petulant?) response is often: “Well, it’s a sad day when virtuousness is considered boring.” But this deflects the issue. Certainly, people are free to worship whomever they want. And they can also compose thoughtful dissertations on how noble and non-boring these wise sages are. But, typically, those sages are not - additionally - pressed into service as action heroes in adventure stories.

Again, if Superman is just a symbol (appearing only on posters and bumper stickers) then idealization works just fine. But if he’s an actual character, then he needs to be treated as such. The over-veneration has been a chronic liability for poor Supes.
Superman needn't be consumed with angst to function as an entertaining character. Superman wouldn't have been a success for decades, entertaining generations, if he failed to function as an entertaining character. As conceived and created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster, Superman was a generally positive, upbeat, enthusiastic personality, often smiling...

Action Comics #5 (1938) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster:

Showed a great sense of humor and toyed with the criminals humorously...
Action Comics #12 (1939) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster:

Action Comics #9 (1939) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster:

Action Comics #7 (1938) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster:

Action Comics #7 (1938) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster:

Action Comics #2 (1938) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster:

Action Comics #12 (1939) by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster:

In live-action George Reeves captured that personality, the sense of humor, smiling amusedly at criminals as they shoot him and the bullets harmlessly bounce off him, etc. on the Adventures of Superman television series.

Although lacking the rougher edge of the Golden Age Superman, Christopher Reeve's version captured the sense of humor in Superman: The Movie with "Hi there! Something wrong with the Elevator?" etc. Jerry Siegel even commented, "He really captured the sense of humor that Joe (Shuster) and I intended the early character to have."
http://www.greatkrypton.com/siegelsh...t-as-superman/


As for Superman being an positive inspirational moral figure, that also goes back to how Siegel and Shuster created the character, and beyond him being a positive inspirational moral figure to people in Superman's world, he also can be a positive inspirational figure on audiences. For example...

Writer Denny O'Neil remembered the effect of Superman's words against racism had on him when he was a kid listening to the Adventures of Superman radio show in the 1940s. "The Superman radio show, I know, gave me my first peek into race situations because I remember, I was a avid listener of that show, if you can imagine little Denny O’Neil standing listening to mommy’s radio, every afternoon at 5:15," he said with a laugh. "And Superman once said that the difference in skin color was only due to a chemical. And that was the first time I ever heard anything like that. It is now 66 years later or so, and I still remember it."
http://www.newsarama.com/comics/2011...ary-11027.html
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I must say theMan-Bat, even if I don't always agree with your posts, they are an enjoyable read.
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Originally Posted by BH/HHH View Post
I've got a lot of respect for Man-Bat, the guys got great knowledge. I agree I really enjoy reading his posts too.
Thank you. I appreciate that.

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Old 02-27-2013, 12:02 AM   #225
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Wargod View Post
The third draft exists. Some years ago a member of the hype posted a brief comparison between Superman Returns and the Third Draft:

- Lex Luthor obtaining Kryptonian technology was a major storyline in the script. Fresh out of college, Luthor was driving cross country for his first job in Metropolis working at some local industrial coroporation, and while stopped in Smallville, witnessed the crashing of Superman's ship. After the Kents scooped up baby Clark as in every other incarnation, Lex found the ship and stole it for himself before Johnathan could return to secure it. This plays into the Kents telling Clark to never use his powers no matter what, and to proceed living like a normal human being, as they know there is someone out there who would be able to identify him. They don't put the fear of god into about his powers like the first draft, but it's made clear they want Clark to live like a normal human being. But anyway, Lex takes the ship, figures out how to adapt the Kryptonian technology, and then buys out his boss and turns the Metropolis Corporation into the Billion dollar company known as Lexcorp, which specializes in military arms development, sonar tech, news forms of stealth flight, etc etc. Not to mention he basically buys the city of Metropolis, including the Daily Planet. There are some funny lines with Perry White and Lois Lane concerning that fact. Lex would then use the Kryptonian technology to call upon the surving Kryptonians to come to Earth and defeat Superman. On a side note, the Lex in this script was a damn creep. Very unnerving almost. Before witnessing the rocket ship crash in Smallville, lex is pulled off to the side of the road, basically writing down notes for his own Mein Kampf. I geuss Luthor has some grand, Hitler like plan that would have played out over the course of the franchise. I really liked how Lex was done here. More on that Later.

- The plane sequence in Superman Returns was basically taken right out of the script. As described in the novel and from all the images and previews Ive seen, it is honestly a shot for shot copy, which isn't a bad thing. The plane sequence in the script was the one of the most stunning visuals Ive ever had in my head, and it should be know different in Superman Returns.

- Superman flying above the world and listening to people's problems, then flying around doing Super deeds was in the script, and might I say one of the best parts about it. Might not be shot for shot, but the idea's came for the scene in Superman Returns came from this script it would seem.

- The heavy emphasis on the romance was there, although with obviously WAAYYYY different storylines. It was the traditional Superman/Clark/Lois triangle, which wasn't a bad thing, not that the Superman Returns love story is bad either.

- The idea of going back to Krypton, with the difference being that Superman leaves for Krypton at the end of the film.
Okay, thanks. Now...I want the third draft, lol Was it written by Abrams like the others, or someone else?

Also, when you mentioned the ending: both the first and second drafts do end with Superman leaving Earth; are you saying the third draft doesn't have that, or has something else? Could you clarify that?

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