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Old 02-25-2013, 10:32 AM   #126
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so what you are saying is that child Loki, this Loki,



has already killed Balder among other terrible things done and done to Loki in the myths (depending on what exactly they include in MCU)? Is that what you are proposing?

or perhaps the baby did it?



and then everyone up in Asgard just forgot, or forgave him because he's just soo darn cute.

and not only that, per the quote from the film book from earlier...

"Loki was a shape shifter that could turn into anything he wished. He was far more spiteful, cunning and deceitful than the other Gods in Asgard, which often led him into trouble. Trouble would be created because he loved playing mean and deceitful jokes on others. Eventually, he was seen for what he was and was distrusted. His quick wit and honey tongue inevitably caused the Aesir to forgive him which left room for his role in engineering the death of the god Balder."

So that would lead one to believe that this version of Loki pre Thor 1 has already done terrible things and been forgiven numerous times and then killed Balder at some point in time, child or not, AND not only the midgardians know about it, but all of the Asgardians must too. They have already apparently forgiven him for that terrible crime enough for Thor to treat him as a brother and Frigga and Odin to still consider him a "son" and potential heir to the throne by the time Thor 1 comes around. Nope. that really doesn't make any sense at all.

"Loki's always been one for mischief but this is something else entirely." ~ Fandral Thor 1

To this proposition that this version of the characters have done what the myths say already - I say NAY! It is clear to me that either it will be that the midgardians made everything up about these "gods" to explain things, which is what happened with real mythology anyway, or it was based on a previous version of them that some stories had come down to Midgard (think the Telephone game) over time, with some variations and changes depending on what stories the Norse wanted to tell.

I am leaning towards the second explanation, which is actually supported by the book quote, for the reasons stated, but also because the death of Balder is a precursor to Ragnarok in the myths. So like I said, the Norse Myths in the MCU are very likely going to be based on previous incarnations and previous Ragnarok.

The question is, Balder is mentioned in the MCU now per this book, but he does not appear to be in the current version, so where is he? Or will they completely ignore his part this time?

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Old 02-25-2013, 03:39 PM   #127
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

Quote:
Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
so what you are saying is that child Loki, this Loki,



has already killed Balder among other terrible things done and done to Loki in the myths (depending on what exactly they include in MCU)? Is that what you are proposing?

or perhaps the baby did it?



and then everyone up in Asgard just forgot, or forgave him because he's just soo darn cute.

and not only that, per the quote from the film book from earlier...

"Loki was a shape shifter that could turn into anything he wished. He was far more spiteful, cunning and deceitful than the other Gods in Asgard, which often led him into trouble. Trouble would be created because he loved playing mean and deceitful jokes on others. Eventually, he was seen for what he was and was distrusted. His quick wit and honey tongue inevitably caused the Aesir to forgive him which left room for his role in engineering the death of the god Balder."

So that would lead one to believe that this version of Loki pre Thor 1 has already done terrible things and been forgiven numerous times and then killed Balder at some point in time, child or not, AND not only the midgardians know about it, but all of the Asgardians must too. They have already apparently forgiven him for that terrible crime enough for Thor to treat him as a brother and Frigga and Odin to still consider him a "son" and potential heir to the throne by the time Thor 1 comes around. Nope. that really doesn't make any sense at all.

"Loki's always been one for mischief but this is something else entirely." ~ Fandral Thor 1

To this proposition that this version of the characters have done what the myths say already - I say NAY! It is clear to me that either it will be that the midgardians made everything up about these "gods" to explain things, which is what happened with real mythology anyway, or it was based on a previous version of them that some stories had come down to Midgard (think the Telephone game) over time, with some variations and changes depending on what stories the Norse wanted to tell.

I am leaning towards the second explanation, which is actually supported by the book quote, for the reasons stated, but also because the death of Balder is a precursor to Ragnarok in the myths. So like I said, the Norse Myths in the MCU are very likely going to be based on previous incarnations and previous Ragnarok.

The question is, Balder is mentioned in the MCU now per this book, but he does not appear to be in the current version, so where is he? Or will they completely ignore his part this time?
who is saying that? I am not saying that lol. I was saying that Loki was still probably an adult. You don't know how old/what year it is. The only thing we see is Loki as a baby in 965 AD. Around that time. As I said, the vikings were around anywhere from 900 AD, to almost 1200. They myth could have been written anytime. Since the asgardians showed up around 965 AD Elizah, that is probably when the vikings first saw them. I am more than sure that they still saw the asgardians, as they come and go. Even if Loki killed balder, or did the things in the myth by the year..990AD, he would still probably be an adult. So no, I am not saying loki did that as a kid. IF he did.

Personally, I think that the whole balder thing is being looked into too much, and it is simply most definitally an easter egg, that's all I think.

If balder doesn't even show up, and he isn't addressed. then, that is it. The words we saw of Loki playing a role in killing him, is probably just a tease as I just said. HOWEVER, if it says that, technically, it was written in myth in the mcu that Loki has done that. If we could assume their myth be true, then yeah, technically, Loki COULD have killed balder. But he wouldn't have been a baby, or a kid at that point. Nothing says so far that the myth is made up. The whole, loki being forgiven thing, it could just be a plothole. I dont think there was a previous ragnarok, and a previous thor and previous odin and Loki. Loki very well could have played a role in the death of balder, and 800 years later, he is finally forgiven.

Again, your thoughts make sense, but I mean, I think that's too deep. What we got is this. Point blank. Like real life, there is myth to these norse beings in the movies. Unlike real life, in the movies, those beings DO actually exist. So we got myth written on beings that actually do exist. These beings HAVE been on earth before. Again, it is all speculation, but at this point, I would say it's a safer guess to assume that those things in the myth DID happen, opposed to not. These beings exist, and they have been to earth. Until it is said otherwise, it is reasonable to believe that these characters did do whatever they said they did in the myth, at some point.

However, regarding the loki balder thing, I think it can go both ways. I think the myths could be one way for us to view the characters past.

but this is too deep.

I think it's easier to assume that the myth is true, than it being made up.

However, in my opinion, I think that the whole Loki, balder thing, and revealing what it said in the myth books is simply just an easter egg, and nothing more.

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Old 02-25-2013, 04:13 PM   #128
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You don't know how old/what year it is.
I do too, it's 2013!

I still say that's a pretty late for them to have them writing myths about those Asgardians. and actually, now, I think that was done on purpose, due to them being based on a previous incarnation of the Asgardians. It is a REAL problem to say that Loki at any age in this version has already killed Balder and that everyone, even the Midgardians know that and the Asgardians have forgiven him for that. That is something he is not forgiven for, and even so, they would all have to be a hell of a lot more cautious of him then they are in Thor 1. To present it the way you are proposing, as being based on this version, is not simply a plot hole but it is a major major characterization problem! Judging by the pains they went to bring plausible characterizations to Thor 1, that people can relate to, to make them more "real", I cannot imagine they would make that massive a mistake as having them treat him in such an unrealistic manner after such crimes. Absolutely not. That just plain does not gel with what we saw on screen in Thor 1 and how the other characters treated him. It just doesn't work to say he's already killed Balder and done terrible things that they all know about it. I'm sorry. That does not make sense. It has to be either made up completely or based on stories about a previous incarnation of the Asgardians, who now have no memory of what happened before, except for, *possibly* Odin.

I dont really see what the issue is with even considering the idea. Ragnarok happens. and as I said I am leaning towards the myths, *to an extent* being true in the MCU, not completely made up, but I really really really think that it is from a previous incarnation, not this one.

once again we'll have to agree to disagree I suppose...

Quote:
Personally, I think that the whole balder thing is being looked into too much, and it is simply most definitally an easter egg, that's all I think
.

that is probably true, or considering that Balder was very nearly in Thor 1, it might have been made up while he was still in it, and never taken out, because they didnt figure anyone would be able to freeze and read all that. LOL

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Old 02-25-2013, 04:34 PM   #129
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and just one or two more little things here. take a look at the scene with Odin and the two boys again. Odin says..

"Only one of you can ascend to the throne, but both of you were born to be kings."

Only one of those two boys can ascend to the throne. In other words, Balder is NOT in the picture here. So either little boy Loki already killed Balder, which is *highly unlikely*, or Balder was never there.

Also, note, at the beginning of all of that, Odin does give the impression that it has been some time since he defended Midgard from the Frost Giants. Certainly more than 10 or so years. There has been enough time for them to have "fallen into man's myths and legends". So no, I do not go along with the idea that Asgardian children grow up on a similar timeline to humans. I would agree with hundreds of years to mature (physically at least ). I definitely dont get the impression that Thor has been an "adult" for 1000 years at the beginning of Thor 1.

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Old 02-25-2013, 05:17 PM   #130
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Old 02-25-2013, 05:21 PM   #131
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Ohhh.... we are getting WAAYYYYY too bored here, talking about this type of stuff that may not even have anything to do with Thor 2. We need a freakin' trailer, more official images, SOMETHING!!!!

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Old 02-25-2013, 05:53 PM   #132
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

In the comics ADULT Loki goes back in time, talks to CHILD Loki and Kills his Father back then.

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Originally Posted by elizah72 View Post
so what you are saying is that child Loki, this Loki,



has already killed Balder among other terrible things done and done to Loki in the myths (depending on what exactly they include in MCU)? Is that what you are proposing?

or perhaps the baby did it?



and then everyone up in Asgard just forgot, or forgave him because he's just soo darn cute.

and not only that, per the quote from the film book from earlier...

"Loki was a shape shifter that could turn into anything he wished. He was far more spiteful, cunning and deceitful than the other Gods in Asgard, which often led him into trouble. Trouble would be created because he loved playing mean and deceitful jokes on others. Eventually, he was seen for what he was and was distrusted. His quick wit and honey tongue inevitably caused the Aesir to forgive him which left room for his role in engineering the death of the god Balder."

So that would lead one to believe that this version of Loki pre Thor 1 has already done terrible things and been forgiven numerous times and then killed Balder at some point in time, child or not, AND not only the midgardians know about it, but all of the Asgardians must too. They have already apparently forgiven him for that terrible crime enough for Thor to treat him as a brother and Frigga and Odin to still consider him a "son" and potential heir to the throne by the time Thor 1 comes around. Nope. that really doesn't make any sense at all.

"Loki's always been one for mischief but this is something else entirely." ~ Fandral Thor 1

To this proposition that this version of the characters have done what the myths say already - I say NAY! It is clear to me that either it will be that the midgardians made everything up about these "gods" to explain things, which is what happened with real mythology anyway, or it was based on a previous version of them that some stories had come down to Midgard (think the Telephone game) over time, with some variations and changes depending on what stories the Norse wanted to tell.

I am leaning towards the second explanation, which is actually supported by the book quote, for the reasons stated, but also because the death of Balder is a precursor to Ragnarok in the myths. So like I said, the Norse Myths in the MCU are very likely going to be based on previous incarnations and previous Ragnarok.

The question is, Balder is mentioned in the MCU now per this book, but he does not appear to be in the current version, so where is he? Or will they completely ignore his part this time?

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Old 02-25-2013, 06:05 PM   #133
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I think by Iron Man 3 we will have this place very lively with the supply of a trailer.

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Old 02-25-2013, 06:11 PM   #134
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Pretty much, yeah

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Old 02-25-2013, 06:22 PM   #135
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That child Loki DOES look like quite the conniving demon......


I like the Ragnarok theory. I think.

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Old 02-25-2013, 06:54 PM   #136
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Ohhh.... we are getting WAAYYYYY too bored here, talking about this type of stuff that may not even have anything to do with Thor 2. We need a freakin' trailer, more official images, SOMETHING!!!!
I'm surprised we've only gotten one official BTS still so far. I would have thought we'd have a propper poster once they finished filming, or even a 30 announcement teaser.

IM3's posters have been really cool, a big step up from most of Phase I's, so I'm expecting TDW's follow suit.

Hopefully March yields something.

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Old 02-25-2013, 10:30 PM   #137
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

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and just one or two more little things here. take a look at the scene with Odin and the two boys again. Odin says..

"Only one of you can ascend to the throne, but both of you were born to be kings."

Only one of those two boys can ascend to the throne. In other words, Balder is NOT in the picture here. So either little boy Loki already killed Balder, which is *highly unlikely*, or Balder was never there.

Also, note, at the beginning of all of that, Odin does give the impression that it has been some time since he defended Midgard from the Frost Giants. Certainly more than 10 or so years. There has been enough time for them to have "fallen into man's myths and legends". So no, I do not go along with the idea that Asgardian children grow up on a similar timeline to humans. I would agree with hundreds of years to mature (physically at least ). I definitely dont get the impression that Thor has been an "adult" for 1000 years at the beginning of Thor 1.
Balder probably doesn't exist. OR it's like the show, and balder simply isn't a son of Odin

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Old 02-25-2013, 11:32 PM   #138
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Balder probably doesn't exist. OR it's like the show, and balder simply isn't a son of Odin
I think Balder likely is not going to exist in the MCU. True, he was in an early draft of the Thor1 script. But there wasn't enough room to deal with his story, so they cut him. And now it's kind of too late (unless they make him just some random unrelated Asgardian, as Jon suggests above. But if they're going to do that, why bother calling him Balder? Why not, for example, "Kemper" )

Scholars think that Baldr was added to the myths when Scandinavia was Christianized, so Marvel could explain the reference to Balder in the book along those lines.

They actually could explain away any of a number of elements from myth that they don't want to use in Marvel continuities in a similar manner. Someone makes up something, and before you know it, it's taken on a life of its own. (enough to populate the entire snopes.com website).

A couple of examples: the idea that Vikings had horns in their helmets. Didn't happen. But it appears commonly enough in culture that it has its own entry on the TV Tropes website.

Here's another one: Davy Crockett was a real person. But that doesn't mean he killed him a bear when he was only three. (song reference for those who don't know)

So just because a Midgardian myth says the Norse gods did this or that doesn't mean that the corresponding Marvel Asgardians must have also. They could just say that it was a tall tale that grew up on Midgard around the legend of the Asgardian figure.

Now, the issue of the timing of Thor and Loki being born around 965 CE and having their adventures after that time is a bit more problematic. There is record of Tor/Donar/Thunor/Thunaer/etc. from the 1st, 7th, 8th, and 9th centuries CE. So at best we can say the mythical figure predates the Asgardian and was conflated with the Asgardian (and that, btw, kind of would imply that the Asgardian was named after the Midgardian mythical figure, or that both were named after some third figure that predates them both). But I think it's just an "oops" on the part of the writers, and we'll make a bigger hash of it trying to make it all fit together than to just chalk it up to an "oops".

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Old 02-26-2013, 12:23 AM   #139
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Maybe we'll find that Tyr was the first God of Thunder in Thor 2? Or something?

I just think it would be insane to have Tyr show up and not Balder.

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Old 02-26-2013, 01:42 AM   #140
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Tony can take anything in his stride , even if it defies all his scientific beliefs.
Not in the comics or even A:EMH for that matter.

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Old 02-26-2013, 01:54 AM   #141
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Not in the comics or even A:EMH for that matter.
RDJ Tony.

Thought you were talking film.

He's unflappable & that much cockier.

Although film-wise the other human (non-alien) Avengers didn't seem all that shaken by seeing alien Gods or alien invasions either. Of course they were surprised and unprepared but they too adjusted very quickly and took it in their stride pretty well.

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Old 02-26-2013, 02:37 AM   #142
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RDJ Tony.

Thought you were talking film.

He's unflappable & that much cockier.

Although film-wise the other human (non-alien) Avengers didn't seem all that shaken by seeing alien Gods or alien invasions either. Of course they were surprised and unprepared but they too adjusted very quickly and took it in their stride pretty well.
That's one thing I didn't like about TA, the human character's reactions to Gods and aliens were TOO nonchalant.

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Old 02-26-2013, 03:36 AM   #143
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That's one thing I didn't like about TA, the human character's reactions to Gods and aliens were TOO nonchalant.
Captain America- "An army... from outer space?"

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Old 02-26-2013, 04:53 AM   #144
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Captain America- "An army... from outer space?"
His reaction should've been more like "what in the hell, an actual army of ALIENS from outer space!!??"

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Old 02-26-2013, 06:38 AM   #145
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Well, I have to admit though, the one small touch that I enjoyed was how Black Widow automatically knew that Thor needed to be present in the room with Banner as they were about to confront him since Thor is the only one among the group that is capable of potentially subduing the Hulk.

It would have been very easy to miss something like that, so I appreciate that they had at least one character recognize on how important it was for everyone that Thor was on the spot. In many ways, Thor is like the Avengers insurance policy in case if Banner is unable to control Hulk from causing a Rampage.

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Old 02-26-2013, 07:16 AM   #146
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That's one thing I didn't like about TA, the human character's reactions to Gods and aliens were TOO nonchalant.
But earth had already started to see some pretty wierd stuff, right? I can't think of the exact quote off hand, but Fury alluded to that, which was the reasoning behind using the tesseract to create weapons.

Not to mention the superpowered destruction that had already been wrought by the individual Avengers themselves (Harlem was Hulk smashed, for heaven's sake). After a while people get kinda jaded by all these superpowered activities.

Oh, another god? Fine. Whatever.

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Old 02-26-2013, 07:31 AM   #147
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But earth had already started to see some pretty wierd stuff, right? I can't think of the exact quote off hand, but Fury alluded to that, which was the reasoning behind using the tesseract to create weapons.

Not to mention the superpowered destruction that had already been wrought by the individual Avengers themselves (Harlem was Hulk smashed, for heaven's sake). After a while people get kinda jaded by all these superpowered activities.

Oh, another god? Fine. Whatever.
lol; perhaps, but Thor and Loki were the first extraterrestrial beings that they had encountered, thus like Fury said, proving that human beings weren't the only ones in the universe.

If I had to make an argument, I'd say that people were more in awe of Steve Rogers, due to his World War 2 heroics and legends, and more conscious of Banner due to his ability to turn into the Hulk than they were of Thor, the Asgardian God of Thunder just casually walking about on the Hellcarrier.lol

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Old 02-26-2013, 07:59 AM   #148
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I think Balder likely is not going to exist in the MCU. True, he was in an early draft of the Thor1 script. But there wasn't enough room to deal with his story, so they cut him. And now it's kind of too late (unless they make him just some random unrelated Asgardian, as Jon suggests above. But if they're going to do that, why bother calling him Balder? Why not, for example, "Kemper" )

Scholars think that Baldr was added to the myths when Scandinavia was Christianized, so Marvel could explain the reference to Balder in the book along those lines.

They actually could explain away any of a number of elements from myth that they don't want to use in Marvel continuities in a similar manner. Someone makes up something, and before you know it, it's taken on a life of its own. (enough to populate the entire snopes.com website).

A couple of examples: the idea that Vikings had horns in their helmets. Didn't happen. But it appears commonly enough in culture that it has its own entry on the TV Tropes website.

Here's another one: Davy Crockett was a real person. But that doesn't mean he killed him a bear when he was only three. (song reference for those who don't know)

So just because a Midgardian myth says the Norse gods did this or that doesn't mean that the corresponding Marvel Asgardians must have also. They could just say that it was a tall tale that grew up on Midgard around the legend of the Asgardian figure.

Now, the issue of the timing of Thor and Loki being born around 965 CE and having their adventures after that time is a bit more problematic. There is record of Tor/Donar/Thunor/Thunaer/etc. from the 1st, 7th, 8th, and 9th centuries CE.
In the real world.

They could always say that in the MCU, there is no worhsip of Thor before the 10th century...

Which would lead us to the question: who were the gods of the Germanic peoples before the 10th century in the MCU? Odin/Wotan and Frigga without Thor, Loki, Sif, etc.?

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Old 02-26-2013, 08:52 AM   #149
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

I said:
Quote:
There is record of Tor/Donar/Thunor/Thunaer/etc. from the 1st, 7th, 8th, and 9th centuries CE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Incredible Hans View Post
In the real world.

They could always say that in the MCU, there is no worhsip of Thor before the 10th century...
Ha! True!

Although that could have a lot of unintended complications, such as:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Incredible Hans View Post
Which would lead us to the question: who were the gods of the Germanic peoples before the 10th century in the MCU? Odin/Wotan and Frigga without Thor, Loki, Sif, etc.?
Hmmm, also true. Odin/Wotan+Frigga works, and then in that scenario, they finally had kids after a long time. Or you could say people worshiped the Vanir before the 10th century, and news of the Battle of Toensberg caused people to convert in short order.

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Old 02-26-2013, 09:05 AM   #150
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Default Re: Thor 2 Dark World news, speculation and pictures possible Spoilers - Part

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That's one thing I didn't like about TA, the human character's reactions to Gods and aliens were TOO nonchalant.
That's what makes them heroes instead of normal people.
Plop down a bunch of gods and aliens invading earth:
Normal people: "AAAAAHHHHHH!!!! It's the end of the world! We are all gonna die!!!!" ....And they do.
Heroes: "Let's form a plan of attack and find out what their weaknesses are, exploit that, and take the sonsabicches down." .....And they do.

Save the earth; ask questions later.

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