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Old 02-26-2013, 04:19 PM   #726
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It's more of a matter of applying logic to it. If you look at the very simple concept of Batman too long, you see a rich boy with daddy issues using his money to beat up the poor and mentally sick who are symptoms of a society that Bruce Wayne (could be) arguably contributing to when he spends all his money on fighting symptoms instead of pr the problems. Then it gets into a whole class warfare thing.
No it's not. Because it's not logical for Batman to be able to win the war on crime. What you listed there? All things I very much wish this franchise would have explored. Because that's some of what's most interesting about Bruce and Batman as a character.

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Nolan made his Batman's mission much more methodical. He not only partners with the cops and DA, he performs surgical strikes meant to completely demolish organized crime and set up a political climate for democratic and legislative change. I'd say a little less "unrealistic" than a guy who fights crime for decades and, usually, fails to see the bigger picture.
Those things are things that either Bruce or Batman have done in the comics. But in the comics, as in the real world, certain types of crime don't just vanish because a major organization is taken down.

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But that is the beauty of the comics. YOu can take it a step out of the logical and make it more of a mythological, elemental thing.
There's really no reason it couldn't have elements of both. And the comics have, for a long time. The movies kind of got to that point. Not fully, but they danced around it.

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That is kind of what TAS and even Burton did. Both are fine, but I can see why Nolan wanted to come up with an actual strategy. Also, in the comics, Batman is part of a bigger sci-fi world where the problems extend beyond the criminal. Again, Nolan boils it down to a war on crime. He then creates a fantastic situation that would make the war semi-winnable. It is an interesting alternative.
The "sci fi" problems you speak of...those tend to be criminals he's fighting. They're just more dangerous, freakish criminals. And Batman has an actual strategy in the comics. He fights crime and social injustice on multiple fronts, with multiple tactics, and multiple strategies. He spends his life doing so.

I think it's missing the point to depict Batman as someone who thinks he can win the war on crime and is naiive about this throughout his career. By the time he's established, he more or less knows he can't win. But he has to fight it nontheless.

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Old 02-26-2013, 04:19 PM   #727
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It's more of a matter of applying logic to it. If you look at the very simple concept of Batman too long, you see a rich boy with daddy issues using his money to beat up the poor and mentally sick who are symptoms of a society that Bruce Wayne (could be) arguably contributing to when he spends all his money on fighting symptoms instead of the root causes. Then it gets into a whole class warfare thing.

Nolan made his Batman's mission much more methodical. He not only partners with the cops and DA, he performs surgical strikes meant to completely demolish organized crime and set up a political climate for democratic and legislative change. I'd say a little less "unrealistic" than a guy who fights crime for decades and, usually, fails to see the bigger picture.

But that is the beauty of the comics. YOu can take it a step out of the logical and make it more of a mythological, elemental thing. That is kind of what TAS and even Burton did. Both are fine, but I can see why Nolan wanted to come up with an actual strategy. Also, in the comics, Batman is part of a bigger sci-fi world where the problems extend beyond the criminal. Again, Nolan boils it down to a war on crime. He then creates a fantastic situation that would make the war semi-winnable. It is an interesting alternative.

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Old 02-26-2013, 04:20 PM   #728
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

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It's more of a matter of applying logic to it. If you look at the very simple concept of Batman too long, you see a rich boy with daddy issues using his money to beat up the poor and mentally sick who are symptoms of a society that Bruce Wayne (could be) arguably contributing to when he spends all his money on fighting symptoms instead of pr the problems. Then it gets into a whole class warfare thing.

Nolan made his Batman's mission much more methodical. He not only partners with the cops and DA, he performs surgical strikes meant to completely demolish organized crime and set up a political climate for democratic and legislative change. I'd say a little less "unrealistic" than a guy who fights crime for decades and, usually, fails to see the bigger picture.

But that is the beauty of the comics. YOu can take it a step out of the logical and make it more of a mythological, elemental thing. That is kind of what TAS and even Burton did. Both are fine, but I can see why Nolan wanted to come up with an actual strategy. Also, in the comics, Batman is part of a bigger sci-fi world where the problems extend beyond the criminal. Again, Nolan boils it down to a war on crime. He then creates a fantastic situation that would make the war semi-winnable. It is an interesting alternative.


Not to mention, both approaches perfectly fit their medium like a glove. Yeah, you can do a Bond-like approach to Batman on film but the logistics of pulling it off become trickier and varying levels of quality are inevitable.

Besides, we had already seen the movie franchise span four films that treated his mission as infinite like the comics. Heck, one of them was called Batman Forever.

The finite mission approach was fresh, and it felt like we as the audience were rooting for a better society as much as we were rooting for Batman and his allies to stop the villain. It felt more positive in that sense.

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Old 02-26-2013, 04:24 PM   #729
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The basis of the crimes in Gotham City, or at lost the most of it, is because of the mobs.
Most =/= All.

Batman setting a standard for crime he'll tackle is again, unsympathetic. He didn't have to retire, plenty of horrible crimes are - for lack of a better term - unorganised.


This brings me on to another urksome detail of TDKR: Gotham city itself. The first 2 films do a good job of depicting a good city crippled by criminals. Rises drops the ball on this because once Bane arrives and drops some generic freedom speeches, the city goes ape-**** crazy.

We're talking about a major city that had the best handle on crime it's had for decades, and suddenly there's carnage in the streets, and people being sentenced to death by a known pyschopath. Was everyone on crazy pills? Maybe Gordon had some before sending the entire police force into the sewers too. The whole Bane-ruled Gotham section was odd, like a right-wingers' nightmare version of Occupy. I couldn't care a less if Gotham was destroyed by the bomb because the residents were so clearly retarded. Ras was right.

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Old 02-26-2013, 04:27 PM   #730
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I dunno, I just think something is lost from the whole "a man who lost his parents as a young child becomes a hero to prevent others from experiencing the type of loss he did" angle when it becomes "young boy becomes a hero to wipe out organized crime and people who experience the type of loss he did because of organized crime, but not because of regular crime".

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Old 02-26-2013, 04:30 PM   #731
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Most =/= All.

Batman setting a standard for crime he'll tackle is again, unsympathetic. He didn't have to retire, plenty of horrible crimes are - for lack of a better term - unorganised.


This brings me on to another urksome detail of TDKR: Gotham city itself. The first 2 films do a good job of depicting a good city crippled by criminals. Rises drops the ball on this because once Bane arrives and drops some generic freedom speeches, the city goes ape-**** crazy.

We're talking about a major city that had the best handle on crime it's had for decades, and suddenly there's carnage in the streets, and people being sentenced to death by a known pyschopath. Was everyone on crazy pills? Maybe Gordon had some before sending the entire police force into the sewers too. The whole Bane-ruled Gotham section was odd, like a right-wingers' nightmare version of Occupy. I couldn't care a less if Gotham was destroyed by the bomb because the residents were so clearly retarded. Ras was right.
It's widely assuming the rest of the crimes were as big of a deal as muggings only because people like Joe Chill are created because of guys like Falcone.

And I'll always agree more time should've been spent on the soul of Gotham as TDK dealt with(and I will always disagree that the idea wasn't so involved in BB or not even as much as TDK), but again, the IMAX run time where Nolan tried to cover other areas as well that needed just as much time.

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I dunno, I just think something is lost from the whole "young boy becomes a hero to prevent others from experiencing the type of loss he did" angle when it becomes "young boy becomes a hero to wipe out organized crime and people who experience the type of loss he did because of organized crime, but not because of regular crime".
What regular crime do you think needed to be taken care of?

Blake even insisted that Gordon and Dent cleaned the streets so well that the GCPD will have to be chasing overdue library books soon.

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Old 02-26-2013, 04:54 PM   #732
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I dunno, I just think something is lost from the whole "a man who lost his parents as a young child becomes a hero to prevent others from experiencing the type of loss he did" angle when it becomes "young boy becomes a hero to wipe out organized crime and people who experience the type of loss he did because of organized crime, but not because of regular crime".
Exactly. I'm all for Batman taking a methodical approach in taking out organised crime, but as the films progressed I feel Nolan lost sight of the personal story in favour of a grand crime saga.

TDK worked so well because it could focus on the crackdown on the mob through Dent and used the Joker to bring out all of the interesting ideological material in the leads. The third film just isn't as concise. I think there is a strain between allowing the Dent act from the second film to play out, and the need for things to go wrong again for a new story.

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Old 02-26-2013, 04:55 PM   #733
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Bruce did need Batman in TDKR. He needed to go out at night and that's why he went out even when his body was way past his prime from BB/TDK and he didn't care if he died once he stepped out, as Alfred even acknowledged. I thought it was clear that Bruce needed Batman as he stayed away from the cape and cowl while the Dent Act cleaned the streets. Once something bad happened, boom...Batman returns and Bruce was just waiting for that moment to happen.

And still...people think he died because of Rachel. If Nolan or both brothers do commentary for the trilogy, they need to exclaim that he did not quit because of Rachel while commentating on TDKR, lol.
It's not that he didn't care if he died, it's that he wanted to die. That's what Alfred acknowledged. Bruce even says he can't move on because Rachel never had the chance. Alfred knew he was looking for his final exit because of that and thats why he told him the truth.

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Old 02-26-2013, 06:18 PM   #734
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I always viewed it as Bruce not caring if he lived or die, not necessarily wanting to die, although you do raise a point. He did ask Bane why he didn't kill him, so you could be right.

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Old 02-26-2013, 07:15 PM   #735
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

It's never more clear than it is in Batman's first fight with Bane that he had a deathwish.

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Old 02-26-2013, 08:12 PM   #736
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It's never more clear than it is in Batman's first fight with Bane that he had a deathwish.
The deathwish is just scratching the surface with Bruce's mindset going into his first encounter with Bane. Bruce having had Alfred not only leave him because of his obsession to be Batman, but also revealing to him that Rachel was going to marry Harvey and not be with him only added flames to the fire when it came to his mental state prior to that fight.

Add Bruce losing all of his money and his seat at his fathers company and it's just a recipe for a disaster when you think about what lead to his defeat at the hands of Bane.

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Old 02-26-2013, 08:55 PM   #737
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It's never more clear than it is in Batman's first fight with Bane that he had a deathwish.
How? Bruce thought he could take out Bane in seconds and tried to keep up with Bane. Didn't really seem like someone with a deathwish if you ask me.

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Old 02-26-2013, 09:45 PM   #738
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

I think when he charged at Bane after Bane had bashed his head in, you can kinda see it. Bruce knew he had no chance of winning at that point, it felt like a defiant display of rage to show Bane that he wasn't going down without a fight. So in that sense, I can see him sort of craving that "heroic" death.

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Old 02-26-2013, 10:49 PM   #739
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Hrm, yes, maybe in those few seconds, I can agree with that. But for 95% of the fight at least, I didn't see a Batman wanting to die.

And, and here's a question for anyone who'd wanna answer...now, I understand how living worked thematically for The Dark Knight, but now looking at Heath Ledger having passed away and how The Dark Knight Rises gave us a Bruce Wayne that retired for eight years as Batman, returned and then passed the mantle down to Robin John Blake...do you think The Joker should have instead died, or still fine with the villain living in Nolan's Batverse?

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Old 02-26-2013, 11:03 PM   #740
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Nah, I'm fine with him being still alive within the universe Nolan established.

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Old 02-26-2013, 11:10 PM   #741
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There's really nothing in THE DARK KNIGHT RISES that suggests Batman wants to die or fail other than Alfred's suggestion that he might. It's a kind of major element that wasn't handled very well in the film.

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What regular crime do you think needed to be taken care of?

Blake even insisted that Gordon and Dent cleaned the streets so well that the GCPD will have to be chasing overdue library books soon
Which, in itself, is a concept so damned silly and ridiculous that it would make Bob Kane himself vomit with rage.

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Exactly. I'm all for Batman taking a methodical approach in taking out organised crime, but as the films progressed I feel Nolan lost sight of the personal story in favour of a grand crime saga.
This. Just because the movies were about Bruce and his personal issues doesn’t mean it was the truly personal story it could have been. Nolan never quite got to the meat of why Batman does what he does beyond “the city needs me”. The whole Wayne legacy thing was just sort of forgotten about as a motivation after BATMAN BEGINS, and really only paid lip service even then. He just kind of missed the point, and the aspect that really sets Batman apart from most superheroes (other than being human).

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Old 02-26-2013, 11:54 PM   #742
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So it's really just an opinion of just not liking what Nolan did with his Batman in only taking out mobs that, in Nolan's universe, is the reason for really any other crime. I can take that if it's just not your thing.

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Old 02-27-2013, 12:00 AM   #743
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Well, given that Alfred knows Bruce probably better than Bruce knows himself, I think what he said had some weight to it. Wanting to die isn't exactly what I would call it. I think Bruce was okay with dying if it came to it. He had a complete absence of fear when it came to death. And that was always the case IMO when he was Batman. He put his life on the line every single night he went out as Batman. And also, when Bane tells Bruce that he welcomes death...that's an assessment from someone who fought the man, which goes back to what I was saying about how Bruce charged at him hopelessly at the end of the fight.

What we have in TDKR is someone who is in worse shape physically and more vulnerable due to age, and with nothing really left to live for...so you can see how it'd be a slippery slope into him almost craving to die a warrior's death on some deeper level. It's like in Dark Knight Returns, when Carrie asks Bruce if he's going to die, and Bruce kind of nonchalantly says, "I figure I will." I know the context is totally different, but I think we see some of that same callousness towards life/death from Bruce in Rises. He's just kind of whatever about it, which is why Alfred is worried about him.

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Old 02-27-2013, 04:46 PM   #744
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Default Re: In hindsight what changes would you do

Gonna put this simply: The 'deathwish' is conjecture. Unsubstantied, and even directly contradictory to Bruce's stated motives and actions.

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Old 02-27-2013, 05:10 PM   #745
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Would you agree though that he was at least ambivalent and callous towards it? The whole point of his escape from the pit was to get back in touch with that primal fear of dying, which is what finally gave him the will to live again in the end.

In order for that to have any meaning, it's almost necessary to consider the fact that Bruce was pretty much okay with death. Like Bane says, "You don't fear death...you welcome it." Why shouldn't that be true? It gives context to what Bruce has to overcome in the film.

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Old 02-27-2013, 05:26 PM   #746
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So it's really just an opinion of just not liking what Nolan did with his Batman in only taking out mobs that, in Nolan's universe, is the reason for really any other crime. I can take that if it's just not your thing.
It's an opinion that Nolan lost sight of the Batman character when he wrote TDKR. It's also an opinion that for a director who prides himself on realism, Nolan really half-assed the depiction of Gotham city in TDKR.

Both of these things were handled pretty damn well in the preceding films. Shame he dropped the ball.


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Old 02-27-2013, 05:29 PM   #747
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If that's your opinion, blame Goyer and Jonathan Nolan as well. This was not a one man show when it came to the writing. And don't focus the blame to TDKR either, when that was the interpretation they were going with since Batman Begins. It's all right there in the dialogue on the plane between Bruce and Alfred. And all throughout TDK he was looking to pass the torch to Dent and move on.

TDKR simply stayed consistent with this interpretation rather than branching off into a territory that was more similar to the comics, which is I think what a lot of people were expecting.

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Old 02-27-2013, 06:27 PM   #748
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TDKR simply stayed consistent with this interpretation rather than branching off into a territory that was more similar to the comics, which is I think what a lot of people were expecting.
Perhaps people thought that because the Joker and Two-Face worked so well to match the comics and Nolan's world.

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Old 02-27-2013, 08:33 PM   #749
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The whole "death wish" thing is just one more thing the film introduced and then sort of never touched on again. The only time it ever really comes up is when Alfred mentions the possibility. That's it.

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Old 02-27-2013, 09:52 PM   #750
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The whole "death wish" thing is just one more thing the film introduced and then sort of never touched on again. The only time it ever really comes up is when Alfred mentions the possibility. That's it.
What about during Bruce's time in the pit? It's pretty integral with him finally being able to climb out because he regained that fear in his heart again.

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