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#451 |
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I thought Jack was like a mix of all eras of Joker up to that point (late 80s). There's a bit of Cesar Romero, a bit of the early 1940s mobster Joker, and some of the more darker Joker from comics like The Killing Joke. And of course, a bit of Jack Nicholson's own style thrown in there.
I still think, the 1989 movie gives us way more iconic Joker moments.. like the "Mirror, Mirror!" scene, the first reveal, the final confrontation, etc.. way more memorable lines too. Jack didn't have the physicality of Heath, but he has way more acting talent. He really commands the screen. While Ledger had a great method style of acting, he didn't have the same charisma as Jack. I can still watch Jack's performances over and over, while Ledger's just don't have the same re-watchability factor. There are only a few scenes I like of his Joker. If he had as many iconic and memorable scenes as Jack, then he would've been the best Joker ever. |
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#452 |
Everything Under the Sun
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The magic trick?
Ah-ta-ta-ta, let's not blow this out of proportion? LOOK AT ME? You remind me of my father, I hated my father? I had a wife who was beautiful, like you? Very poor choice of words? HIT ME? Well, depending on the time, he may be in one spot or several? You're just a freak - like me? You'll just have to play my little game if you want to save one of them? You have nothing to threaten me with, nothing to do with all your strength? Do you wanna know why I use a knife? I just want my phone call? I'm an agent of chaos? It's not about money, it's about sending a message. Everything burns? You and I are destined to do this forever? Those aren't iconic enough for you? I love Jack's Joker too, but you are waaay off base about Ledger. |
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#453 |
The Clown Prince of Crime
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Yeah, I don't associate Joker much with following Vicki Vale around because he fancies her, or thinking of himself as an artist, or being the killer of the Waynes. I liked Jack but he didn't nail Joker as much as Ledger did, IMO. Ledger vanished into the role. From the voice to the facial mannerisms to body language. Not a trace of Ledger. Whereas I always knew I was watching Jack. That's one reason why I don't think Nicholson had more talent with the role.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 02-28-2013 at 08:21 AM. |
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#454 | ||
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![]() ![]() And it doesn't really matter that he killed the Waynes in that film, it was only to set up the final confrontation. It made perfect sense in the context of the film. Jack nailed it, even Bob Kane agrees. But as I said, Ledger had a certain physicality that was perfect for Joker. |
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#455 | |
Everything Under the Sun
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The Clown Prince of Crime
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"Many observed that Burton was more interested in the Joker rather than Batman in terms of characterization and screen time. Comic book fans reacted negatively over the Joker murdering Thomas and Martha Wayne. In the comic book, Joe Chill is responsible. Writer Sam Hamm, who is a comic book fan, said it was Burton's idea to have the Joker murder Wayne's parents. "The Writer's Strike was going on," Hamm continued, "and Tim had the other writers do that. I also hold innocent to Alfred letting Vicki Vale into the Batcave," he reasoned. "Fans were ticked off with that, and I agree. That would have been Alfred's last day of employment at Wayne Manor." http://destinyosbourne.hubpages.com/hub/the-batman Quote:
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 02-28-2013 at 04:38 PM. |
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#457 | |
Everything Under the Sun
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#458 | |||||
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With Nicholson, I could tell the main influence was the original 1940 comic (Batman #1), which was Joker's first appearance. And pretty much everything else followed from that. Quote:
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The Clown Prince of Crime
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I can also show you some quotes from DC Batman writers about the likeness of Ledger's Joker to the comics, too, if you like. Quote:
All things I saw in TDK. I didn't see any of that in Batman '89. Quote:
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You won't find one shred of evidence to suggest it was the intention to show Bruce may have been wrong about Joker killing his parents. It was very clear cut. Quote:
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker |
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#460 | ||||||||
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He does though announce that his poisoning Gotham with cosmetic products and announces the Gotham parade (where he kills people), he still has his trademark Joker card: ![]() He leaves his victims with a hideous grin like in Batman #1, unlike Ledger's Joker: Quote:
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#461 |
Come what may..
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Can I just...
Both versions of the Joker were good in different ways (depending on your preferences), both had their own invented quirks that were new, and both were steeped in comic influence. That is all. Thank you for your attention.
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Why do we fall?
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#462 | ||||||||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
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In what way did I do that?
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So lets sum up. Your only claim to the Batman #1 influence is the use of Joker toxin, which he's used in a million different stories, and Napier holding up a Joker card once. Is that it? Quote:
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 03-03-2013 at 09:22 AM. |
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#463 | |||||||||||
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I never said Ledger's Joker was "not something you associate with the Joker from the comics".
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#464 | |||||||||||||||||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
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![]() I asked you to name three INFAMOUS Joker stories where this was a key trait since you claimed Joker is a notorious ladies man. You give me some obscure Brave and the Bold story panel. Quote:
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1. There is no big psychological payoff. It leads to a scene where Batman beats up the Joker for killing his parents. No big psychological payoff there. It was added in last minute by Burton during the writers strike. 2. If you consider the death of Batman's parents, the entire foundation of him being Batman, as a plot device, then you must not know Batman well at all. It weighs heavily on Bruce's arc in Batman Begins.
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 03-04-2013 at 08:20 AM. |
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#465 |
L'homme qui rit.
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Also in TDK Heath uses knives and dresses like a cop, both nods to B#1 and #2. Also unlike Nicholson who was stuck with the ridiculous perma-smile make-up, Ledger's Joker was not always smiling (contrary to one of his "stories"
![]() Nicholson was actually pretty close to Romero's take on the character and even in a way to Hackman's Luthor, where back thyen playing a supervillain wasn't really taken seriously and meant acting way over the top like some kind of commedia del'arte buffoon or something. Heath represents the spirit and the essence of the character. Bottom line, the writing and the Joker in B89 simply aren't in the same league as what was done with TDK. But to be fair, B89 did pave the way and prepared the audience for a darker take on the mythos.
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#466 |
Everything Under the Sun
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I think Jack's performance in '89 is so freaking fun to watch, but everything The Joker and gwynplaine have said is spot on
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#467 | |
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That is a cringeworthy moment. |
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#468 |
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Long time lurker, finally joined up. This thread has always caught my eye (I like seeing some of the posts in here, great stuff) so I thought it would be appropriate to make my first post here.
I don't see how anyone could hate/dislike the Nicholson Joker, or the Ledger Joker for that matter. I find it hard to believe that anyone that's a Batman fan would have any faults with either of them. The two characters are arguably the best villains out of the 7 films (atleast for me), they're one of the main reasons Batman and The Dark Knight are so special. I personally think they both nailed the Joker in their own ways. How come people always want to compare things in order to put one down? The Pfeiffer/Hathaway thread in the TDKR section comes to mind. Can't they just both be good? Why does there always have to be a victor? Why does it have to be "choose one", when both are available to us? I haven't read every comic book, but I think I've read enough to know what makes the Joker, Joker. He's literally one of my favorite characters, right up there with Batman himself. I don't think it's right to say that Nicholson or Ledger didn't "get it right" just because they're not every comic interpretation rolled into one. Even those interpretations vary from comic to comic. Nothing is set in stone, I have yet to see a definitive version out of all the stories out there. Personally, I never liked the whole, "Jack is just playing Jack in Batman '89" argument. Maybe Jack Napier, but once the Joker steps out of that elevator in that iconic scene where he reveals himself to Grissom, he ceases to be Jack being Jack, to the Joker. Heck even before that at the post-surgery scene with the mob doctor. That's cheesy and "not Joker", that whole sequence? Really? I don't think nostalgia has anything to do with it, but that vibe from that scene still gives me chills. It's just a great moment when you see all those bloody tools and he sees himself in the mirror for the first time. It's brilliant and a great first look. The reveal at Grissom's is even better. Jack is dead, enter the Joker. I never understood the negative comments about him going after Vicki either. Did people really think that he wanted her as a girlfriend or something? That he was in infatuated with her? I didn't see that. The Joker is easily sidetracked, you even see it in The Dark Knight where that versions of the Joker's plans and ideas are all over the place (a distracted "dog chasing cars"). Vicki was never the Joker's end game, he didn't want to court her. I mean, didn't he try to deform her with acid at the museum and kill her at the Cathedral? I always figured that after he saw that picture of her after Bob's reconnaissance outside the courthouse that he became obsessed with disfiguring her because of what she represented and how beautiful she was, just like Alica (who "threw herself out of a window". The Joker was demented and psychotic. There's also the fact that he seemed to think she had information about the Batman (along with Knox). He asks her this at the Museum. I love the way she quickly answers "I don't know anything about Batman" and it's like he just snaps and starts going after her like a shark. Those eyes, the way he's coming over to her like a Terminator when he misses with the acid. It's creepy stuff. I dunno, the Vicki thing seems like a nitpick to me. I mean yeah, their encounter is there to move things along like people have stated, but she's the damsel in distress. Ledger Joker does the same thing with Rachel "you are beautiful", but I don't think he wanted to "get with" Rachel at Dent's party, quite the contrary. They're the hero's girl, they're put in harms way. That's how the stories go. A lot of fans really rip the Nicholson Joker now a days and I'm not sure why. What's so bad about him? I see complaints about the chelsea grin, really? I thought that was brilliant for an explanation for the Joker's perma smile. Just as good as in TDK with the scars. He's not always smiling, there's emotion in there. At the mob meeting, when Anton and the other mob bosses provoke him ("what's with that stupid grin") he looks down right sinister. Or even at the museum when Vicki says "you must be joking", I don't see the Joker "smiling" there, even with his deformity. There's an expression there, and the expression isn't happy, happy. He looks down right serious and threatening. Ironically, he looks the most intimidating WITH the flesh tones in my opinion. I'll always prefer the white, red and green classic look, but I gotta admit, I really dig when the Joker is in "disguise". I thought the flesh tone "civilian" look was brilliant. Joker DID that in the comics. Hell, that's one of my favorite parts in TDK. I love the honor guard sequence. I remember when that pic was first revealed with Ledger in the cop get up without make up and the scars, I was so excited. Same deal with the Nicholson Joker in his mob look. Now to the Ledger Joker, I don't see why people still seem to have hang ups over the painted face or say that he's not funny or "Joker" enough when it comes to the clown aspects. He's not just some sick, homicidal clown and he has the white face, red lips, green hair and the purple suit. What more do people want? I don't know about other folks, but when he was on screen, I literally had a smile from ear to ear. From the magic tricks to his nurse disguise, I thought he was great. He didn't need the gags (which are great in other interpretations) to impress you, he was naturally charismatic, just like the Nicholson Joker. Some things that you shouldn't agree with, you just do. He's just an electrifying character. I love how in the beginning of the film, you're not sure what his end game is. He wants to mess with the mob, he wants to kill Batman. Then later on, everything is turned on it's head like he's been enlightened and now he wants to destroy the mob, give the city a better class of criminal (the rise of the freaks which, unfortunately TDKR completely does away with, along with the Joker) and duke it out with Batman forever, never killing him. He's just so great and interacts with every character, even the city. I love them both equally, not just for their differences but their similarities. Everyone focuses on how they are different, how one is better than the other and even how they "aren't accurate to the source", but how about all the things that they got right and the similarities they share? Both Joker's rise to the top of the food chain and end up ruling Gotham (for a short time) after decimating the mob. Those mob meetings are eerily similar. They both get annoyed/upset when they're called "freaks" or "crazy", everyone at the table is shocked that they're there and can't take their eyes off them, especially after Nicholson Joker fries Anton or when Ledger Joker pulls out the grenade rig. The tv broadcasts, boy oh boy. That Joker commercial with the smylex is brilliant, "NEW AND IMPROVED JOKER PRODUCTS". It's just lolz. He's developed this product that not only kills innocent gothamites, but gives them a disgusting, hideous grin and he's promoting it with cardboard cut outs of models and a seagul. If that isn't Joker, I don't know what is. The song, the "OH, NO", the shopping card jig. It's just so fantastic, he was like the first troll before the internet. I especially love Bruce Wayne's expression at the sight of it, you can tell he's uneasy. Then of course the Joker broadcasts in TDK. JUST as GREAT in my opinion, hell, the virals revolved around it. That first one when he finally shows himself to Gotham with Brian Douglass is just fantastic and eerie. "So you think you've made Gotham a better place?", you can tell Ledger was just really into it there. The latter ones are even better where he's not even harming people, like with Mike Engle. I love how the Ledger Joker makes up little scripts and you can hear him repeating this things to Engle during the "town is mine" speech. You see him later on READING from the paper scripts during his speech to the ferry boats before the Prewitt seige. It's just pure Joker. There's another similarity that ties both of them together. What is the only painting that the Nicholson Joker doesn't destroy at the Museum? Why 'Figure of Meat' of course. Guess what Nolan gave Ledger as inspiration for his role? Francis Bacon paintings, the painter of 'Figure of Meat'. One of the included paintings was none other than 'Figure of Meat'. The painting is just as twisted and dark as both of their psyches, how appropriate. That's another thing that I don't get. What's the hangup with the Joker's views on art? It seems appropriate to me. "I'm the world's first fully functioning homicidal artist . . . and I want my face on the one dollar bill". What's wrong with destroying all those priceless painting (which, if you're an art person is pretty upsetting), it fits with the Joker's twisted view with vanity and what's considered beautfiul (after he's been scarred and disfigured by Batman). This guy gets off on death, destruction, chaos, so much so that he considers corpses of war to be brilliant (as seen in Vicki's portfolio with the corto maltese war photos). Just because he's defacing priceless works of arts doesn't mean that simply painting is what art is all about (nor is it what Joker is all about). His goal, other than to get back at Batman is one about vanity. His major end game is killing Gotham on the outside with his DDID nerve gas (which he famously dubs Smylex) so everyone is just as ugly as him while having a damn good time doing it. Not swooning Vicki. How about the Ledger Joker? He's an "artist" in his own way with the things he does. There's an art to what he pursues and accomplishes, hell, just look at his "custom" outfit. He wears his ideals and deformities on his sleeve, just like the Nicholson Joker. He has those stories about his scars that he tells his victims, instead of smylex, he carves up his victims and paints their faces (Brian Douglass, Harvey and Dent) etc. His whole motto is "whatever doesn't kills us simply makes us stranger", he can attest to that. He gets right up in people's faces with not only his ideals, but his facial scars as well. His major end game is destroying Gotham's spirit from the inside and making everyone just as ugly as him while having a damn good time doing it. I could go on and on, but there you have it. I think both actors nailed the character completely. Any time the two of them are on, they get my attention (and other people's as well). That's what the character does, he steals the show. He's the ultimate showman, the antithesis Batman (it doesn't matter if he killed Batman's parents or if he wasn't dropped by him into a vat of chemicals), you're supposed to hate him, but you can't help but cheer for him with his crazy (and sometimes not so crazy) antics. He's the most quotable and easily the best written character of all the Batman films. He's the Joker, Batman's greatest villain, and perhaps the best comic book villain and villain in general. He has been played by two great actors (that are rooted from their comic origin, but also transcend it) and will hopefully see a glorious return in a future cinematic interpretation. Not sure what more people could ask for other than more when it comes to either Nicholson or Ledger for the Joker. It upset everyone when the Joker was killed off in '89, that's a gripe almost everyone had with it. "Damn, they killed off the Joker". Then, sadly, we lost Heath Ledger, whose character lived through the events of the film, but would never be heard or seen from again. It's a shame really (especially about Ledger), but having the character around in film once every 20 years makes it that much special and powerful. You want to see more, but what's given to you lives on. Am I the only one who loved both and think Ledger and Nicholson nailed the character? Last edited by milost; 03-05-2013 at 11:40 PM. |
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#469 | ||||||||||||||||||||||
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#470 | |||||||||||||||||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
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Joker's obsession with Batman because he thinks he's so much fun is another key trait of the character. Several examples of that shown in that link I showed you, including from infamous Joker stories like The Laughing Fish and A Death in the Family. Yet somehow you saw Osama Bin Laden. Your version of Osama Bin Laden sounds a lot more interesting than the version I've seen on the News. Quote:
So remind me again what this list is you're talking about? Quote:
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Batman #1 Joker went on the air and said he will kill. Like Heath's Joker. Quote:
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A Joker card is a Joker card. It doesn't make one iota of difference what design of Joker is on it. Quote:
So why are you continuously trying to claim this came from Batman #1? Quote:
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Apart from the proof you've been given by me and others of the blatant similarities of Batman #1 and TDK's Joker, I can give you direct quotes from Nolan that Batman #1 was used as an influence. Do you want to see them? Quote:
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Alicia committed suicide after seeing two brief scenes of her "following" the Joker. You were really stretching that one weren't you. Quote:
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How on earth do you equate that to Joker "going after her" like with Vicki in Batman '89? Or being a ladies man? Quote:
"She's dating some guy named Wayne" "She's about to trade up" Explain to me in detail how that's the same as what Joker did to Rachel in TDK? Quote:
Think about that then you'll see the silliness of your argument. Quote:
Out of character gimmicks. Quote:
1. First scene between Batman and Joker is when Batman bursts into the museum, grabs Vicki, and leaves. Very thrilling duel there. 2. Joker dares Batman to meet him at the parade. 3. Joker and Batman finally come face to face in the cathedral and Joker gets the snot beaten out of him for killing Batman's parents. I must have missed this big epic duel between them. The last half hour was Batman climbing a cathedral, getting beaten up by a random Joker henchman, then beating up Joker. Is that the big epic duel you're talking about? Quote:
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 03-06-2013 at 05:53 PM. |
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#471 |
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![]() Thanks! But I gotta say, I obviously don't see the Ledger Joker as a "half-assed anarchist/Osama Bin Laden wannabe who wears war paint". I think you're downplaying it quite a bit (then again, that's exactly what The Joker is doing to Nicholson as well). In TDK, the Joker is brilliant and the right amount of sinister and fun in my opinion. You don't like the magic trick? You don't like "a little fight in ya"? Or his charisma? Or his Nurse disguise with the ironic "I Belive in Harvey Dent" sticker"? If you like Nicholson Joker, you must like the Ledger one right? Like I said, those great clown characteristics are in there, Ledger plays them to a tee. As for Batman and Joker "meeting" and "dueling" in person. I never felt that they actually had to physically meet and discuss everything from weather to politics to get that "epic" feeling of two titans duking it out, not just physically, but with their ideals and outlooks on life. In Batman and The Dark Knight, the two of them don't really meet that often, they simply react to each other. In fact, both films take place in what, just a few days? A week or two at the most? In Batman, they're obviously at Axis together where the Joker is born. They see each other/hear about each other in the news. There's the few seconds at the Museum where Batman saves Vicki and fights his goons. There's also Axis when Batman isn't able to subdue Joker at the factory. Then of course, there's the parade and Cathedral in the film's climax. The Dark Knight is similar, with just a little more Batman and Joker interaction, namely during the interrogation scene (though Batman is pretty much silent and more preoccupied as the clock counts down with Dent's life than what Joker has to say, besides the location). Before that, they meet at the party that is literally not even a minute long. Then there's the great street scene with the Batpod (just like the Batwing scene in '89). Instead of duking it out and subduing the Joker though, Batman literally plays possum and falls off his Batpod. Hell, up till that point, the Joker thought he was Harvey Dent anyway which, if you're worried about interactions between the two sort of deflates their "clash of the titans" relationship. Then after the interrogation scene, they don't meet again until the Prewitt sequence. It's probably no longer than the Cathedral, other than the dialogue (which is cut with the actual reactions in the Ferry). It's just like '89 Batman where Batman is getting to the top of the building, fighting off the Joker's goons. Instead of Batman pounding on the Joker like in '89 (I love the Joker's little gags to distract Batman, like the chattering teeth), the Joker is the one doing the beating to Batman at the end of TDK. Unfortunately, while we get the fantastic "I think you and I are destined to do this forever speech", we never hear or see the Joker again (one of my biggest gripes with TDKR). He's simply retconned out of existence along with Ramirez, Reese and the other important key players from The Dark Knight. So Batman and Joker's feud is a couple of days long, does that detract from the impact the two of them have on each other? Batman literally spends most of his time trying to find the untraceable Joker (until his Sonar device of course). What constitutes as Batman and the Joker meeting? Sitting down and having a cup of tea with a little chit chat? I don't need to see them punching each other or having long elaborate conversations. They don't have to meet for them to be epic rivals, '89 Batman and The Dark Knight prove this. As for comic accuracy, while I prefer a nameless, low life criminal (not even Joe Chill per se) murdering Thomas and Martha Wayne, I don't mind Jack Napier murdering the Wayne's. It doesn't bother me at all. I can see what Burton was going for. He made it more personal and I love the whole "I made you, but you made me first". It's a nice twist to the lore, and doesn't really destroy the relationship Batman and the Joker have with each other in the film. In fact, even after the Joker is told, he doesn't seem to remember or care. That was another life, when he was Jack Napier, now he's the Joker. He continues to call Batman "Batsy", and wants him dead. He still sees him as Batman, nothing else. The murder aside, the personalities and traits of Batman and the Joker were always going to clash, just like in the comics. They're the exact opposites of each other in nearly every way. Batman is hidden, a loner, he works alone, everyone fears him, he should be the villain, he's a brooding monster. In fact, Gotham doesn't know what to make of him, even after he cracks the Joker's code. The Joker on the other hand, is again, the ultimate showman. He's out there, in the public, day and night. He loves attention, from his commercials to his announcements. He seeks a certain fame as the clown prince of crime and relishes in becoming the center of attention. He's the villain, he murders innocent Gothamites in various ways with agenda and outlook on life. Before Batman even discovers that the Joker killed his parents, he's out there to stop him. Joker is in direct conflict with everything Batman represents. Was it about revenge when he saves Vicki at the Museum? He could have killed the Joker right then and there (and all of his goons for that matter). Was it about revenge when he foils the Joker's cosmetics plot when he discovers the ingredients and gives them to the press? Nope. It's simply about Batman eliminating crime and apprehending a madman, nothing more. He doesn't even KILL a criminal, thug, goon, etc. until he discovers that Jack Napier killed his parents. Batman is very much the figure he is in the comics, one that apprehends and leaves criminals shaking in their boots before the final act. Likewise, the Joker is just like his comic counterpart. The murder and flashback (that flashback is brilliantly haunting and sad by the way, when Bruce thinks back to the night that created him) is a twist, a catalyst that doesn't take away from either character as far as I'm concerned. Before that they're still titans trying to outsmart and end each other. "He's psychotic", Batman despises the Joker because the Joker is everything Batman is not. They're the exact opposites, antitheses of each other. Like wise, the Joker is the same way. Remember how infuriated he is when Batman continues to thwart every plan the Joker has? Or when Batman gets the media's attention? It bothers him. This is the same man that "dropped him into the vat of chemicals", now, not only has he created him, but he's ruining everything he believes in and conjures up. The Dark Knight is the same way, just even more fleshed out (as it should be with the progression of the characters and 20+ years of evolution). It doesn't matter if Batman didn't CREATE the Joker in a vat of chemicals or physically deforming him, a key component to the mythology. It's the characters alone, the Dark Knight character, and the Clown Prince of Crime character that makes it impossible for them not to clash. They have completely different ideologies, just like in '89. They don't have to be punching each other or meeting up to get this idea. Joker even says that the fight for Gotham's soul isn't about a fist fight with Batman. It's all about the characters and their reactions to each other. You see Bruce's expression when he watches the Joker on his monitors in the Batbunker, you see the Joker's reaction to Batman. THAT is what's important. Comic accuracy be damned, imo. It doesn't matter if Jack Napier killed Bruce's parents in '89 or if Ledger wasn't created by Batman in TDK. You still get that sense that they contrast each other by personalities alone. I'll tell you what they both do though, they both damage Batman emotionally in a BIG way. In '89, The Joker obviously kills Bruce Wayne's parents. That's huge. What does the Joker do in The Dark Knight? He also kills one of the most important people in Bruce's life, Rachel Dawes. This is similar to the comics where the Joker kills Jason Todd and it has a lasting impact on Batman, emotionally and mentally. I don't see the problem with either. In fact, the same scene plays, music and all, when Bruce is mourning Rachel in the penthouse. It's the same sequence as the first film where he's a child and blames himself for the death of his parents. Alfred is there comforting and supporting him (asking him if he wants something to eat) and the same emotion and music is playing. So, even in that aspect, both Joker's do the same amount of damage. It doesn't matter who or what. Parents or girlfriends. It's still there. Last edited by milost; 03-06-2013 at 11:23 AM. |
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#472 | |||||||||||||||||||||||
Banned User
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And the 'social experiment' was basically to prove that people would murder others for self-preservation. I don't see how that proves Joker's point that "deep down, everyone is like him". Quote:
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I already know that Batman #1 was an influence on The Dark Knight, I'm not trying to prove against that. Quote:
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Ever even think that he was actually joking. But surely someone called The Joker would never make a joke like that. Quote:
But Joker in '89 wasn't a 'skirt chaser'. He was the supervillain threatening the hero's girl, as has been seen countless times in movies, even in The Dark Knight. You're acting like it is some love triangle, with Joker putting the moves on Vicki. Yeah, trying to burn her with acid and throw her off a building. Quote:
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That doesn't mean it's all physical, one on one, but other stuff like Batman foiling Joker's plans and such. Quote:
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#473 | |
Everything Under the Sun
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Boston
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#474 | |||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
The Clown Prince of Crime
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Arkham Asylum
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"You didn't think I'd risk losing the battle Gotham's soul in a fist fight with you. Nooooo, you need an ace in the hole. Mine's Harvey" His plan was to take over the Gotham underworld and break Gotham's soul. Kill the city's hope. All from the comics, too. Quote:
Now that's flawed writing. Quote:
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I'm still waiting to see your list of exclusive Batman #1 influences. Quote:
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"Uh oh, he don't look happy. He's been using brand X. But with this new improved Joker brand I get a grin again and again" "If you want order in Gotham, Batman must take off his mask and turn himself in. Every day he doesn't people will die. Starting tonight. I'm a man of my word. HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!" "Tonight I will kill Henry Claridge. The Joker has spoken" Who's quote looks out of place? Yep Nicholson's. Quote:
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You quote him like he was some great authority on what's good. If you want to think that way then you must agree with him that Val Kilmer was the best Batman. Better than Keaton. Quote:
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Bob: "She's dating some guy named Wayne" Joker: "She's about to trade up" Joker: "We were having dinner. I was a man doing well with a beautiful woman" Joker: "It's though we were made for each other. Beauty and the Beast" He gives her flowers as a gift. He has their conversation by candlelight in the museum with romantic music playing on the radio etc. He was as subtle as a sledgehammer about his romantic intentions. Quote:
Like he did with Alicia. Quote:
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Joker: "She's about to trade up" Joker: "We were having dinner. I was a man doing well with a beautiful woman" Joker: "It's though we were made for each other. Beauty and the Beast" He gives her flowers as a gift. He has their conversation by candlelight in the museum with romantic music playing on the radio etc. He was as subtle as a sledgehammer about his romantic intentions. Yeah, all comic book villains treat the damsels in distress that way lol. Quote:
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I've explained these already. Quote:
You must be the one having the joke if you're trying to suggest otherwise. Quote:
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I'm seriously wondering if you're just making this up now to try and save face. Do you see all other villains in comic book movies treat the hero's girl like the way Joker did with candlelit dinners, romantic music, flowers, and repetitive lines about how they belong together, how beautiful she is, how she's going to trade up dating someone for him etc? Honestly stop talking nonsense here. Quote:
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Boring. Then he finds out Joker killed his parents, goes to the parade, and swipes his balloons, then follows him up a church tower and beats him up. I struggle to understand how you see this as an epic rivalry. Quote:
Yet both Batman '89 and Begins got sequels 3 years later after their release. So what's your point?
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"Sometimes I remember it one way. Sometimes another. If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!" - The Joker Last edited by The Joker; 03-07-2013 at 09:07 AM. |
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#475 |
Banned User
Join Date: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,005
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I didn't really like the GCPD taking their time to converge on the Joker's location either. They show up as soon as the Joker goes up to the Cathedral, but where are they before that?
I know in the scripts, cards and comic adaptations, the Joker poisoned/killed the officers and they weren't equipped to handle the Joker and his men, but it would have been nice to have a small explanation in the actual film. Unless it was left on the cutting room floor, which is a pretty great possibility. I just chalk it up as behind the scenes stuff I guess, even though I don't really like doing that. Joker never announced where he'd be, the streets were crowded, and the Joker's men were all over various buildings, so maybe they just couldn't get up to him. I'll just chalk that up as a coincidence. All movies have that though. I mean atleast a small force of them come later right? It's not as bad as sending EVERY single cop in the city into a trap like in TDKR. THAT is bad writing. It's ashame how bumbling and unsuitable Gordon got by TDKR. But then again, the police being incompentent at showing up at the Joker's float is just as bad as having the idea of sending the two ferries out (one with citizens, and the other for prisoners) for the sole purpose of protecting them. They scanned the bridges for explosives, they didn't think of checking the oh so important ferries? Gotham's men in blue have never been to bright in any of these films. Not Burton's, not Nolan's. Outriddled, I think you should watch The Dark Knight again. I don't know if you're being biased because of your appreciation and love for the Nicholson Joker, but I promise you, the Ledger version is just as good and just as faithful to the comics. He's certainly no Osama Bin Laden rip off or alagory. He's just as much Joker as Nicholson. Ledger Joker's plans changed on a whim, very much like the Joker of most interpretations. He's not supposed to be predictable. I mean look. At first you think he wants the mob money and a part of their cut. He's also pretty serious about killing Batman (and Dent and other civic leaders). But then look, once Batman shows up and he figures out Dent and Batman aren't the same, he's offing mob bosses, won't kill Batman and wants to make Dent a freak criminal too. What if he had killed Dent in the SWAT van? He was being the JOKER, it's that simple. Is ideal was that nothing really mattered. He wanted to be at the top of Gotham's food chain and break the whole system apart. He wasn't even against the idea of other folks coming in and joining in on the fun, he even says he wants as much. Who knows that else he had up his sleeve. Too bad we'll never find out. And I do agree with you about the '89 Joker not being a skirt chaser. There's no way the Joker was trying to get with Vicki, he was just messing with her and wanted to disfigure her. She was a side plan, a happy accident. Again, another one of those unpredictable things. I mean, look at what he's doing when he first discovers Vicki. He's literally making a collage of victims, cutting and pasting away at his Axis lair. After Bob's reconnisance (where he learns about key players in Gotham), he snaps and adverts his attention to Vicki. Not out of love, not out of trying to “wow her”. He's psychotic, he's pursuing a beautiful woman, probably Gotham's best, but not to court her, to get info and ruin her. Even more so when he found out she was somehow involved with Batman. I mean, Jack Napier didn't even love Alicia, it was a power thing. He even says to Grissom “you set me up, over a WOMAN”, as if she's nothing more than a thing, an inanimate object. These ladies were just objects to him. Not lovers, not things. Hell, they're no meaningful to him than those works of art in the gallery. All they are to him are things that need his personal touch, which is chaos and death. Had he gotten a hold of Vicki, Vicki wouldn't have lived very long. I mean, this guy disfigured Alicia, seemed to have ruined her mind (she doesn't even act the same anymore) and most likely killed her horribly (I highly doubt she “threw herself out of a window not by his twisted expression at the apartment and omlett speech”). Personally, I think the Joker wanted Vicki for 1. information (“what can you tell me about Batman”) and 2. to kill her in some horrible way. Not buy her flowers and go out on a date with her, that's ridiculous. He gave her, what, a dead rose? That shock alone might have killed her What about how shocked he looks when she starts kissing him to distract him from Batman. If he were looking to be with her, why would he do those things? Nah, he wanted to torment and disfigure her, then kill her. More so when he found out that she was somehow associated with the Dark Knight when she “ran off with that sideshow phoney”. She represented something beautiful and pure in Gotham and that's against his view on life. The Joker doesn't want or need girl friends or friends. I mean, look what he did to poor Bob, his right hand man who'd take a bullet for if need be. He murders him in a quick, unpredictable gun shot to the side. He even shows signs of hating Bob's guts when he mocks Grissom by mocking Bob's “yes sir”. He treated Alicia like crap before he even became the Joker. She compliments him and he's still nasty with the "I didn't ask" line. Bad wiring indeed. He's a vile character. Last edited by milost; 03-07-2013 at 05:15 PM. |
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