The Official Batman (1989) Thread - Part 3

[TruerToTheCore]

Originally Posted by TheWatcher

Denny O'Neil and Neal Adams brought Batman back to the shadows. Frank Miller expanded on that. Tim Burton added the finishing touches.

But Gotham City still looked like an ordinary American city. Part of the "New Look" was to ground Batman, much like Nolan did. Frank Miller is nothing "Gothic", if anything he invented the hardass URBAN SWAT COMMANDO Batman. You have a pretty hard time to be a Demon of the Night and at the same time shooting everything into pieces with a big tank.

[CConn]

You're getting hung up in the details. It's the overarching tone and message that matters.

[CConn]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

That seems like an over-simplification too. There are a wide variety of interpretations of the character in the comics.

Sorry. I was referring specifically to the characterization of Bruce in the current DCU. And there's really only one of those. With minor variations between writers.

[Elevator Man]

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

[mikey1974]

I agree with CConn. we actually see a full character arc of Bruce through all 4 films.

when he stars, Bruce Wayne doesn;t really exist. he's pretty much Batman all the time,even when out as Bruce. analyzing.vengeful.no time for personal relationships. and what SHOULD be the moment that snaps his darkness - the death of his parent's killer - does not such thing....

as evidenced in BR. he's even more distant. Vickie has left him due to his inability to move on from the night,and to actually HAVE a life as Bruce Wayne. he's murderous,cold,just waiting for the Batsignal to bring him to life. even,again,while out as "Bruce Wayne",he's still Batman. see his scene with Max in the board room. all he's worried about is finding out Max's connection to the Red Triangle Circus Gang.Selina is his mirror image, murderous,full of rage and hurt,unable to get over the trauma in her life. just like him . the same "Split,right down the center." once he sees her,and what basically he has become,is when he has his moment, willing to give it all up (even openly exposing his identity in spite of what it would mean if Max survived,knowing he was Batman) to have them try and put it all behind and save each other. he's becoming HUMAN again,rather than just dwelling in the dark beast of Batman. and he's rejected by Selina's madness and pain,the pit he was in and is just beginning to crawl out of...

Batman Forever IS a sequel. loose,indirect,whatever. it references events from the 1st 2 films and has the same Alfred and Gordon characters. here is the most even split of the character. Batman is now more the "Hero" of Gotham rather than the boogeyman in the alley's and rooftops.He has embraced this role. and Bruce Wayne now actually exists,going on dates,running Wayne Enterprises,even taking in a ward. yet he's still not completely over his parents death,as evidenced by his dreams about the book. Chase and Robin help him with this,firstly by finally confronting the choice he made, and showing him that he can be "Both Bruce Wayne AND Batman. not because i have to be,but because I CHOOSE to be." and Dick shows him he doesn't need to face the night alone anymore,while also grounding him to not go back to being the vengeful,murderous psychopath he was previously cause Dick need guidance,some one to set him on the right path to seek JUSTICE rather than REVENGE.

B & R continues this transformation. Batman is now Bruce's costumed hero alterego,the mask he wears to go out and seek justice. Bruce is the "main" character in the split personality relationship, still running Wayne Enterprises and mentoring dick,engaged to Julie Madison,active in charitable causes,and most of all now part of a FAMILY with Dick, Barbara,and Alfred. something he never had before.

as the movies go along,we start off with a vengeful,in pain Bruce who is fully immersed in the monster he's created, to realizing that revenge has become his whole life and it's the wrong road to travel,to becoming part of the human race again and moving past his need for revenge to ease his pain,to finally becoming a hero to inspire others,a guiding figure in a hurt young man's life,and eventually part of the family he was denied all his life.

it's a pretty good,fully realized character arc in my opinion

[Elevator Man]

Somebody on YT did retrospective /review of B89.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Nothing special or anything I haven't heard before but thought I'd share it here. And I gotta laugh at the six minute mark he praises Elfman's score and say it's one of the best superhero scores and such, but then at the end does a montage of scenes from B89 using Zimmer's "Why Do We Fall?" from TDKR ,which took me right out of the montage b/c it just doesn't fit, imo. I could think of a ton of Elfman cues from B89 that would fit better than "Why Do We Fall?". Anyways.

Theres also a longer version of the video on blip.

http://blip.tv/oliverharper/batman-r...review-6540196

[OutRiddled]

Originally Posted by axecrazy

Bruce's last real on screen conversation with Vicki also took on a new dimension to an older me:

Bruce: Look, sometimes I don't know what to think about this. It's just something I have to do.

Vicki: why?!

Bruce: Because I'm the only one who can.

A simple statement, but filled with truth on multiple levels. Various writers have tried over the years to pass on the mantle to other characters... but it never really works. Bruce has something that makes him irreplaceable as Batman. Everyone else is viewed as an imposter by both readers and other characters when they try to do his job. Why is that? What makes him so special? That's a big question... one that can at least be partially answered by is schizophrenic nature. Also, his origin is unique among superheroes. It shaped him as much as he shaped himself through concious choice and long training.


Bruce: I tried to avoid all this but I can't. This is how it is [being Batman]. It's not a perfect world.

Vicki: It doesn't have to be a perfect world. I just gotta know if we're going to try to love each other.

Bruce: *looks sad* I'd like to. *bat-voice begins to emerge* But he's out there right now, and I gotta go to work. *turns away to the batsuit*

Something tells me that this is how Bruce's relationships with normal women will always end. They can't handle his duality because it feels like they're in an intimate relationship with two very different men. One is fairly normal...and the other ultimately frightens them. Not that they believe Batman will ever intentionally hurt them, but he is always dark presence... a void they can't fully understand. Even Doctor Chase Meridian, who helps him reconcile the two aspects of himself, leaves him in the end. Bruce finds bad girls more akin to himself, but those relationships always end with them trying to knife him in the back. They're crooks at the end of the day. He can't win. *sigh* Our boy is destined to be a lonely bachelor for the rest of his days.

And now, after looking back, I can finally pinpoint why Nolan's Batman feels false to me. Because his Batman was never really Batman at all. Just some whiny rich kid dressed in kevlar who can't decide what he really wants, and thus is unimpressive in almost every way. A weirdly dressed James Bond cut out with ninja training is how I sum up Nolan's Batman. Even Schumacher's Batman is more impressive as an individual. I mean at least Schumacher's Batman made his own Batman stuff and didn't take **** from his butler. Remove the neon, costume aesthetics, nipples, and ass-shots and Schumachers Batman suddenly looks way more like what we've come to expect from our hero. He's supposed to be an extraordinary in every sense, not some regular Joe in a weird suit he can afford just because he's rich.

Nolan and Bale utterly fail to convey that Bruce Wayne is fractured at his core... their Batman is wholly false because he is a mere construct, a 'symbol' Bruce creates to hide behind because he can't find a way to confront Gotham's problems as Bruce Wayne. Whereas the real Batman knows exactly what he's about, and uses both personalities in his struggle against injustice. He was literally born the night Thomas and Martha Wayne died and Bruce shut down to grieve. Tim Burton, Bruce Timm, and even Joel Schumacher got that critical part right. Nolan did not.

A great post. Nolan's Bruce Wayne was willing to give up Batman for a woman who was going to choose another man over him, and then finally gave being Batman for 10 years because she died.....

When Vicki tried to change his mind, it's: "This is how it is *****!" Well, not exactly, but he didn't give up being Batman for her. Keaton's Bruce Wayne would never do something like that.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by OutRiddled

A great post. Nolan's Bruce Wayne was willing to give up Batman for a woman who was going to choose another man over him, and then finally gave being Batman for 10 years because she died.....

That's not actually why he gave up being Batman. It was because he felt Batman wasn't "needed" any more. So he just became a recluse, a bit similar actually to how Keaton's Bat simply brooded in Wayne Manor until called at the beginning of Returns.

There are fair critiques to be made of Nolan's version of Batman, but this isn't among them.

[CConn]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

That's not actually why he gave up being Batman. It was because he felt Batman wasn't "needed" any more. So he just became a recluse, a bit similar actually to how Keaton's Bat simply brooded in Wayne Manor until called at the beginning of Returns.

There are fair critiques to be made of Nolan's version of Batman, but this isn't among them.

Yes, but Nolan, IMO, failed to orchestrate it nearly as well as it needed to be. Ultimately, it proved to be little more than another example of Nolan's Bruce being little more than a rather immature perform mainly guided by exterior direction and reaction as opposed to action.

[OutRiddled]

Originally Posted by ThePhantasm

That's not actually why he gave up being Batman. It was because he felt Batman wasn't "needed" any more. So he just became a recluse, a bit similar actually to how Keaton's Bat simply brooded in Wayne Manor until called at the beginning of Returns.

There are fair critiques to be made of Nolan's version of Batman, but this isn't among them.

I got the sense that was his main motivation. That's why he engineered the whole thing with Harvey Dent. He wanted to give up being Batman. So he could be with Rachel Dawes. But he couldn't just give it up willy nilly. That explains the whole plot of The Dark Knight. Begins was all about proving he was the real man he was inside, again so he could be with Rachel Dawes "It's what you do that defines you". He spends the whole trilogy completely pussy-whipped.

[axecrazy]

Originally Posted by OutRiddled

He spends the whole trilogy completely pussy-whipped.

So true. And pussy whipped by just about everybody, not just Rachel Dawes. Alfred, Talia, Ras, Joker, Bane, Catwoman... they all kicked his ass and talked down to him. Gordon was the only one who never wavered in his devotion and support. And for that at least, I have to praise the writers and Gary Oldman's performance.

In contrast, Keaton!Bruce doesn't take **** from anyone. He's rich, powerful, self-assured, and asserts himself when he feels he should. He's no ones *****, and has a purpose all his own. Burton!Batman is a force to be reckoned with at all times. He certainly has scruples, but he's no pussy when the stakes are upped and dirty jobs need to be DONE.

I know I sort of abondoned this thread. I got sidetracked by RL and other geeky stuff. I wrote up futher thoughts and responses to some counterpoints here a while ago, as well as random thoughts. I'll post them if you're interested.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

B89 was on TV the other day... and it made me realise just how much I loved it. I still think it's one of the best superhero movies.

The one thing that did stick out at me was the ending... It was incredibly melancholic. There is just something so sad and bittersweet about it.

[axecrazy]

Originally Posted by Pfeiffer-Pfan

I one thing that did stick out at me was the ending... It was incredibly melancholic. There is just something so sad and bittersweet about the ending.

Yeah. Although he saved Gotham and found his parents killer, in a way he lost somehow, didn't he? He has made his choices, and is fully committed to the Bat-Signal now. It's good for Gotham, but the personal cost to Bruce is immense. More than anyone except Alfred will ever understand.

[mikey1974]

yeah,this is basically him saying he's in it for the long haul, no matter the consequences to his personal life.

[OutRiddled]

Originally Posted by Pfeiffer-Pfan

B89 was on TV the other day... and it made me realise just how much I loved it. I still think it's one of the best superhero movies.

The one thing that did stick out at me was the ending... It was incredibly melancholic. There is just something so sad and bittersweet about it.

It does have a melancholy to it, but it also gets my blood pumping with excitement. Seeing the bat signal, and that epic music. One of the best endings to a superhero movie.

[axecrazy]

I found this excellent review/analysis on Kenneth Muir's blog a few months ago. Easily the most insightful review on the Net:

http://reflectionsonfilmandtelevisio...tman-1989.html

Muir talks about the resurrection theme in detail. Joker and Batman are both terrifying spectres who haunt Gotham City; she created them, and they are her children in every sense.

I like that idea a lot. It fits perfectly with both the visual motifs and psychological underpinnings of their respective alter-egos. And in a pinch Catwoman/Selina fits with the resurrection theme as well.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by mikey1974

I agree with CConn. we actually see a full character arc of Bruce through all 4 films.

(I did read your post. Just prefer to live in denial in this one teensy instance.)

[OutRiddled]

Originally Posted by axecrazy

I found this excellent review/analysis on Kenneth Muir's blog a few months ago. Easily the most insightful review on the Net:

http://reflectionsonfilmandtelevisio...tman-1989.html

Muir talks about the resurrection theme in detail. Joker and Batman are both terrifying spectres who haunt Gotham City; she created them, and they are her children in every sense.

I like that idea a lot. It fits perfectly with both the visual motifs and psychological underpinnings of their respective alter-egos. And in a pinch Catwoman/Selina fits with the resurrection theme as well.

Thanks for the link. I like reading stuff like this.

[axecrazy]

No worries. I especially love how he explains the Joker. Even as an older viewer, Joker's talk about being an artist still puzzled me somewhat until Muir explained it. Burton himself has the soul of a true artist by the way. It's why he's so.... weird. Like Batman and Joker really.

[Ponyboy]

I love what Keaton says about the role here. Also his interaction with Burton at the end is pretty funny...

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

[Elevator Man]

It's a shame those two haven't worked together in over 20 years now. Those two made a great team.

[Pfeiffer-Pfan]

He would have been perfect for Willy Wonka...

It just seems like when Burton left Batman behind, he left Keaton behind as well.

[OutRiddled]

Originally Posted by Elevator Man

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Surreal to watch this stuff. It's like the movie doesn't even exist now, let alone being so popular that all the major stars of the day are giving their opinion on it. Or maybe it's just the 80s..

[C. Lee]

I met Billy Dee Williams last weekend. Got him to sign pics of him as Lando Calrisian and Harvey Dent....

[milost]

Very cool. Did you talk about anything with him or was it just an autograph?

He was at one of our conventions (assuming you were at a convention of some kind), and man, what he charged for his autos was pretty damn high. My brother got him to sign a Star Wars figure and I think it was like 90 bucks. Still a fun experience though.


I know personally, my worst autograph experience was with Todd McFarlane who seemed different from when I first met him a decade earlier.