Superman Lives!

[BH/HHH]

So far I'm about 20 pages or so into the Gilroy script and I'm noticing stuff I dislike more than I did when I first read it:

- Clark telling Lois his secret at a Japenese. Also her quickly coming to terms with it, she doesn't seem that surpised.
- Supermans first appearance is abit weak going after some goons who are dumping sewage (or whatever it was) in the water supply
- Brainiac is after Kal El cause of jealousy over the fact that he was Jor Els son and he didn't spend enough time with him
- Brainiac merging with Lex whilst Lex is wearing a thong (why?)
- when Clark turns in Superman he burns all his clothes
- the gym scene where Clark uses his powers and is caught by Lois' annoying niece. How can he be so stupid to use his powers in a gym of all places
- Clark and Lois scene on the roof of the DP, really liked the dialogue here
- Doomsday the pet (urgh)

Things I have liked though:
- the opening on Krypton, way I read it came across like a scene from a horror movie
- Clarks discovery that he's an alien
- kind of like and dislike this one but he has a secret compartment for his costumes

There's more but I can't think right now

[Dr.]

Originally Posted by theMan-Bat

Superman needn't be consumed with angst to function as an entertaining character. Superman wouldn't have been a success for decades, entertaining generations, if he failed to function as an entertaining character.

To be sure, Supes gets credit for longevity. But it’s a big stretch to say that those 75 years have been marked with solid, uninterrupted quality. A lot of the material is, frankly, crap; a lot of it is dated; and a lot of the rest gets forgiven as quaintly charming - inasmuch as it was always geared towards a youth demographic.

So then the question becomes, is a big budget movie necessarily beholden to any of that? Not really. Not any more than Nolan was beholden to the Batman TV series; not any more than Ridley Scott’s Robin Hood was beholden to Disney’s animated version (starring anthropomorphized animals). A $200M PG-13 Superman film simply can’t bank on the warm-and-fuzzy nostalgia factor; it has to compete on the same playing field as the Dark Knight, Spider-Man and various Avengers and X-Men. And it’s not as if Superman isn’t up to the challenge. Indeed, one of the reasons that he has endured, imo, is because his basic mythos remains resonant and evocative. But that doesn’t mean perpetually consigning the character to 1940s/kiddie fare sensibilities.

I’ve said this before: modern audiences are onboard with the fantastical abilities and outré costumes of superheroes. That kind of Kool-Aid goes down just fine. But they expect everything else to conform to general standards of “realism.” I.e., given the genre convention that the protagonist can do X, what are the logical/plausible ramifications? If Superman were real, what would that look like? How would he feel? What would everyone else think? There are different and legitimate ways to interpret those questions. But winking to the audience or wisecracking during fisticuffs or smiling as bullets fly aren’t among those ways.

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by Dr.

To be sure, Supes gets credit for longevity. But it’s a big stretch to say that those 75 years have been marked with solid, uninterrupted quality.

I didn't say that. I didn't claim that everything labeled "Superman" in 75 years has been solid quality. I said Superman wouldn't have been a success for decades, entertaining generations, if Superman failed to function as an entertaining character. Of course I'm referring to the vast amount of successful Superman material over the decades, not flops like the 1975 musical TV special or poor quality like the two movie serials from the late '40s.

A lot of the material is, frankly, crap

I certainly don't agree with that mentality, particularly about the Golden Age Superman material by Jerry Siegel, Fleischer Studios, the Bud Collyer radio show, the George Reeves stuff. If you consider that crap then that tells me you are not much of a Superman fan at all if you can't appreciate and enjoy the classic Superman material.

So then the question becomes, is a big budget movie necessarily beholden to any of that? Not really. Not any more than Nolan was beholden to the Batman TV series; not any more than Ridley Scott’s Robin Hood was beholden to Disney’s animated version (starring anthropomorphized animals).

That is a ridiculous comparison. Does the satirical Adam West TV show accurately depict the nocturnal vigilantism and brutality of Batman as conceived and created by Bill Finger and Bob Kane? Of course not. Does the Disney talking animal Robin Hood accurately depict the Robin Hood of folklore, literature and early film? Of course not. Does the George Reeves Superman TV series accurately represent Superman's personality, methods and basic formula as conceived and created and depicted by Jerry Siegel? Yes, it does. Was it made strictly to entertain children? No, it wasn't. No. Producer Robert Maxwell, in partnership with Bernard Luber, made the first season of the Adventures of Superman television series with the intention of getting an early-evening, prime-time schedule slot, aimed at adults and families. The first season of Adventures of Superman included many deaths in many of the episodes, for example...a man is shot in the back and killed in "The Stolen Costume" episode, and a man and a woman fall to their deaths after Superman leaves them on top of a cliff in that same episode, a woman is beaten in "Night of Terror" and Lois is punched in the face, a crippled old woman in a wheelchair is pushed down a flight of stairs where skeletal remains are in "The Evil Three," a dead dog is found in "The Deserted Village." It was not geared primarily toward children. George Reeves also wanted to gain an adult audience.

But they expect everything else to conform to general standards of “realism.”

Was The Avengers conforming to Christopher Nolan's attempts at grounded "realism"? No, not really, and it was a huge, huge success.

wisecracking during fisticuffs or smiling as bullets fly aren’t among those ways.

I disagree. Superman with a cocky sense of humor doesn't make him less entertaining or less adults or less believable as a character. There are people with that kind of cocky wisecracking personality in real life. He's smiling/smirking amusedly at criminals as they shoot him since the bullets harmlessly bounce off him.

A reminder, this thread is about Tim Burton's Superman Lives...

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

- Clark telling Lois his secret at a Japenese. Also her quickly coming to terms with it

That was in the Wesley Strick script, too. That doesn't really bother me. Lois suspected Clark Kent was Superman in the comics and on the George Reeves Adventures of Superman TV show. Jerry Siegel even had Superman reveal the secret identity to Lois and she quickly comes to terms with it in "The K-Metal from Krypton" story as far back as 1940, and but DC editorial director Whitney Ellsworth declined to publish it in 1940.

Superman also was to first learn he was an alien from Krypton in Jerry Siegel's "The K-Metal from Krypton" story.

Things I have liked though:
- the opening on Krypton, way I read it came across like a scene from a horror movie

There isn't even a Krypton opening in the original Dan Gilroy script I have that's dated February 24, 1998. It just starts off opening with Superman fighting the guys who dumped nuclear fuel rods into a lake. In the second Dan Gilroy script I have dated September 20, 1998, after Tim Burton was off the project, opens with a brief Krypton scene with Jor-El fighting Brainiac, which was based on the longer Krypton opening scene from the Wesley Strick script.

[BH/HHH]

The one I'm reading has that Krypton scene u mentioned in the draft dated Sep 20 1998. Also its not really that Clark tells Lois during the Japenese is how quickly she comes to terms with it, I'd expect she'd show different ranges of emotions I.e. Shock, anger, happiness but she just kind of accepts it.

Btw I just read the Elevators scene and I actually liked that, I also think its good it leads straight to him fighting Doomsday as a routine save turns into something horrific for Superman.

[Dr.]

Originally Posted by theMan-Bat

I said Superman wouldn't have been a success for decades, entertaining generations, if Superman failed to function as an entertaining character. Of course I'm referring to the vast amount of successful Superman material over the decades, not flops like the 1975 musical TV special or poor quality like the two movie serials from the late '40s.

Or any number of comic runs from the Silver and Bronze ages - including goofy stuff like Mr. Mxyzptlk, a menagerie of super pets or the Superman’s Pal and Girlfriend titles.

If you consider that crap then that tells me you are not much of a Superman fan at all if you can't appreciate and enjoy the classic Superman material.

I’d say I’m a fan of the Superman concept and the basic mythos. But that doesn’t mean that everything and anything featuring the character is axiomatically a storytelling gem. I don’t grade Supes on a curve; I judge the material against similar genres to be found in literature, film, etc. And by that criterion, it’s frequently bad-to-middling.

That is a ridiculous comparison...

The point of those comparisons was to note that a given property can be interpreted for different demographics. And if one version happens to be simplistic/family friendly, this doesn’t necessarily inform or constrain more mature iterations.

Was The Avengers conforming to Christopher Nolan's attempts at grounded "realism"? No, not really, and it was a huge, huge success.

Though I greatly admire the DK trilogy, I thought the level of “realism” in IM, Thor and Avengers was just fine. So we’re talking relative “realism” - distinguished from, say, the decidedly campy/silly approach of the Reeve movies (or, for that matter, the Lives screenplay).

Superman with a cocky sense of humor doesn't make him less entertaining or less adults or less believable as a character. There are people with that kind of cocky wisecracking personality in real life. He's smiling/smirking amusedly at criminals as they shoot him since the bullets harmlessly bounce off him.

Again, it’s a question of what strikes the modern audience as plausible (given the genre conceits). The first time someone shoots at our hero, Supes (himself) might not be certain if he can withstand the volley. Not really a lighthearted moment. Subsequently, Supes will be more assured - but the bad guys (presumably) still have the full intention of murdering a human being (otherwise, it’s a pointless waste of bullets). So, still not a credible time to inject comedy. (The smirk after the “eyeball scene” in SR would be about as far as you should go.)

A reminder, this thread is about Tim Burton's Superman Lives...

My own digressions have been relatively concise compared to yours. That’s not a complaint; as others have mentioned, your posts are interesting. Regarding the Superman Lives screenplay, I thought it was amateurishly bad. Abrams’ 2nd draft of Flyby, though it had issues, was better by miles.

[Binker]

Originally Posted by theMan-Bat

There isn't even a Krypton opening in the original Dan Gilroy script I have that's dated February 24, 1998. It just starts off opening with Superman fighting the guys who dumped nuclear fuel rods into a lake. In the second Dan Gilroy script I have dated September 20, 1998, after Tim Burton was off the project, opens with a brief Krypton scene with Jor-El fighting Brainiac, which was based on the longer Krypton opening scene from the Wesley Strick script.

Could I get that script from you? Also, what other scripts relating to Superman Lives/Reborn that people may not have or read that you have?

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by Binker

Could I get that script from you? Also, what other scripts relating to Superman Lives/Reborn that people may not have or read that you have?

I have the August 23rd, 1992 Superman Reborn script by Mark Jones and Cary Bates.

I have the March 24th, 1995 Superman Reborn script by Jonathan Lemkin.

I have the December 12th, 1995 Superman Reborn script by Gregory Poirier.

I have the January 31st, 1997 Superman Lives script by Kevin Smith.

I have the March 27th, 1997 Superman Lives script by Kevin Smith.

I have the July 7th, 1997 Superman script by Wesley Strick.

I have the January 24th, 1998 Superman Lives script by Dan Gilroy.

I have the September 20th, 1998 Superman Lives script by Dan Gilroy.

I have the February 3rd, 2000 Superman Lives script by William Wisher.

No, I can't give you copies of those scripts, it's against the board rules under pirated material, since those scripts have not been officially released by Warners.

Distribution of of unauthorized copies of intellectual property such as movies, television, music, games, comics and software programs via the "The Hype" is prohibited. This includes but is not limited to private messages, visitor messages, and posts. If a poster makes an announcement via thread or individual post on "The Hype" related to distributing any of the pirated material above said poster will be punished via warning, infraction, probationary, or permanent ban. Any requests by a poster in a thread for any of the above pirated material will result in the same above punishment on behalf of the moderating team of "The Hype". First Offense: One Week Probation Second Offense: Two Weeks Probation Third Offense: Permanent Ban Don't Be A Pirate.

http://forums.superherohype.com/faq....q_item#faq_pir

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by Dr.

Or any number of comic runs from the Silver and Bronze ages - including goofy stuff like Mr. Mxyzptlk, a menagerie of super pets or the Superman’s Pal and Girlfriend titles.

Mister Mxyztplk was hilarious in the Golden Age and Silver Age, and I love the Superman’s Pal, Jimmy Olsen run by Jack Kirby from the Bronze Age!

Though I greatly admire the DK trilogy, I thought the level of “realism” in IM, Thor and Avengers was just fine. So we’re talking relative “realism” - distinguished from, say, the decidedly campy/silly approach of the Reeve movies

This I agree with. While I'm glad that Superman's sense of humor was present in Superman: The Movie, it and the sequels were also needlessly campy with bumbling buffoon Clark, Lex and Otis, etc.

(or, for that matter, the Lives screenplay).

Which screenplay? There are many Superman Reborn/Lives screenplays. There's the Mark Jones and Cary Bates screenplay, the Jonathan Lemkin screenplay, the Gregory Poirier screenplay, the Kevin Smith screenplay, the second Kevin Smith screenplay, the Wesley Strick screenplay, the Dan Gilroy screenplay, the second Dan Gilroy screenplay, the William Wisher screenplay.

Again, it’s a question of what strikes the modern audience as plausible (given the genre conceits). The first time someone shoots at our hero, Supes (himself) might not be certain if he can withstand the volley. Not really a lighthearted moment. Subsequently, Supes will be more assured - but the bad guys (presumably) still have the full intention of murdering a human being (otherwise, it’s a pointless waste of bullets). So, still not a credible time to inject comedy.

Whats with the "cutesy" nickname? The characters name is Superman, not Supes or Supie. You'd rather he be stone-faced, without smiles, smirks, no wisecracks, no signs of his sense of humor, no fun. Frankly, that makes the character duller, more sterile than he was intended to be, much less fun and entertaining, like the sad version in Superman Returns. The end result is too many people today think Superman is a boring character. If Iron Man can show a sense of humor and wisecrack, so can Superman.

My own digressions have been relatively concise compared to yours.

That's been due to posters, such as yourself, messaging me about other Superman film projects and comics, and I answered, along with a friendly reminder to trying not to deviate off the topic of the thread.

That’s not a complaint; as others have mentioned, your posts are interesting.

Thanks.

Regarding the Superman Lives screenplay, I thought it was amateurishly bad.

Which screenplay? There are many Superman Reborn/Lives screenplays. There's the Mark Jones and Cary Bates screenplay, the Jonathan Lemkin screenplay, the Gregory Poirier screenplay, the Kevin Smith screenplay, the second Kevin Smith screenplay, the Wesley Strick screenplay, the Dan Gilroy screenplay, the second Dan Gilroy screenplay, the William Wisher screenplay.

Abrams’ 2nd draft of Flyby, though it had issues, was better by miles.

Better than what? There are many Superman Reborn/Lives screenplays.

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

The one I'm reading has that Krypton scene u mentioned in the draft dated Sep 20 1998. Also its not really that Clark tells Lois during the Japenese is how quickly she comes to terms with it, I'd expect she'd show different ranges of emotions I.e. Shock, anger, happiness but she just kind of accepts it.

That Dan Gilroy script does say she's stunned. She does show shock, and a little anger. She says, "I don't believe it. All the times we, I mean Clark and I -- I mean you worked with me, all the late nights in the news room, all the mornings -- All the times I came to work with no make-up! Why did you wait so long to tell me who you really were?"

Btw I just read the Elevators scene and I actually liked that

I prefer the Plutonian Gnaw Beast scene, battle and rescue of children at the Luthorworld Amusement Park in the Wesley Strick script.

[BH/HHH]

Ill have to read Stricks again.

Also on the subject above of scripts my favourite script was definitely the Cary Bates one. I'd have loved to have seen that film made in the 90s.

[nouan]

I liked that one part in Gilroy's script where Superman has that secret room or whatever and he has a wall full of newspaper clippings of aliens and what not. I have to read it again. And on a side note, The Man-Bat reminds me of Kurosawa, who posted on Man of Steel threads, with his knowledge of the history.

[BH/HHH]

Man-Bat what are some of the differences in both drafts of Kevin Smith's Superman Lives?

I have the March one infact that's my fave script of the Superman Lives lot, he obviously had some ridiculous things in there but he made it work.

[Dr.]

In terms of citing numerous comic book pages, issues or eras for precedent, I would think intention is a more fruitful guidepost for modern iterations. With a few exceptions, Superman (in the old days) was never presented as comedic or spoofy. Allowing for the fantastical context, the reader/audience was always supposed to take the character and his stories seriously. But what if, in the intervening years, certain aspects of execution have come to be regarded as dated, awkward or inadvertently humorous and corny? There’s no credit in slavishly replicating this. Indeed, it contravenes the original intention.

Originally Posted by theMan-Bat

Which screenplay? There are many Superman Reborn/Lives screenplays. There's the Mark Jones and Cary Bates screenplay, the Jonathan Lemkin screenplay, the Gregory Poirier screenplay, the Kevin Smith screenplay, the second Kevin Smith screenplay, the Wesley Strick screenplay, the Dan Gilroy screenplay, the second Dan Gilroy screenplay, the William Wisher screenplay.

The Strick screenplay.

Whats with the "cutesy" nickname? The characters name is Superman, not Supes or Supie.

Yes, it’s a nickname - and a fairly ubiquitous one at that (do a search on SHH and count the hits). If you’re campaigning against it, you’ve got a lot of work ahead of you.

You'd rather he be stone-faced, without smiles, smirks, no wisecracks, no signs of his sense of humor, no fun. Frankly, that makes the character duller, more sterile than he was intended to be, much less fun and entertaining, like the sad version in Superman Returns. The end result is too many people today think Superman is a boring character. If Iron Man can show a sense of humor and wisecrack, so can Superman.

I prefer Supes as the strong, silent, Gary Cooper-ish type. In the right situation, smiles are fine. But wisecracking or making didactic speeches at the UN, etc. is undignified. And above all, I think of Superman as dignified.

Which screenplay? There are many Superman Reborn/Lives screenplays. There's the Mark Jones and Cary Bates screenplay, the Jonathan Lemkin screenplay, the Gregory Poirier screenplay, the Kevin Smith screenplay, the second Kevin Smith screenplay, the Wesley Strick screenplay, the Dan Gilroy screenplay, the second Dan Gilroy screenplay, the William Wisher screenplay.

The Strick screenplay.

Better than what? There are many Superman Reborn/Lives screenplays.

The Strick screenplay. The Smith one was pretty weak too - but as I recall, it had better dialogue. Clearly, both were hampered by the bizarre constraints imposed by Peters. I haven't read Gilroy.

[BH/HHH]

Smith's dialogue was definitely better although I don't like Lois calling Superman baby

[batman strikes]

All this time I was thinking the Dan Gilroy draft was the last script Tim Burton was working with before he left the project. I come to find out now that Burton left in April and that the draft Dan Gilroy wrote was in dated September of 98. So the Wesley Strick script that was released is the closet thing we have to Tim Burton vision of the film?

[BH/HHH]

Yeah Man-bat said somewhere above that Stricks script was what Burton would have used as Gilroys drafts were after Burton left.

I've just gotten to where Superman Returns from his death in the Gilrot script, not sure what I think of Superman wearing a mask (finding it hard to picture it) but I loved the bit where he saved the child from the burning building. I'm actually quite enjoying Gilroys script.

I must say though I'm not that keen on Lexiac, I guess I'm just finding it hard to picture him sucking power out of lightbulbs and that weird thing he does when Brainiac comes out of Lex's body at times.

[batman strikes]

Yeah Gilroy draft was probably the best on out the Superman Lives scripts. Are you reading the september draft or the January draft?

[BH/HHH]

Originally Posted by batman strikes

Yeah Gilroy draft was probably the best on out the Superman Lives scripts. Are you reading the september draft or the January draft?

Good question I think September. Well I actually like Smiths the best cause even though it has some daft moments it still feels like a Superman film to me.

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by batman strikes

All this time I was thinking the Dan Gilroy draft was the last script Tim Burton was working with before he left the project. I come to find out now that Burton left in April and that the draft Dan Gilroy wrote was in dated September of 98. So the Wesley Strick script that was released is the closet thing we have to Tim Burton vision of the film?

That's right. The first Dan Gilroy draft that was dated January 24th, 1998 was also while Tim Burton was still signed on to direct the Superman film project, but Tim Burton didn't like that draft and called it committee-ized. Tim Burton had lost control of the scripting and was upset. By the time Dan Gilroy was finished with his September 20th, 1998 draft Tim Burton was off the Superman film project and onto directing the Sleepy Hollow film project instead. Tim Burton signed onto direct Sleepy Hollow in June 1998, regaining creative independence, away from Jon Peters and Warners year long script meetings and rewrites.

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by Dr.

Superman (in the old days) was never presented as comedic or spoofy. Allowing for the fantastical context, the reader/audience was always supposed to take the character and his stories seriously.

Is that the way you figure it? You honestly think that the many Superman scans I posted of humorous Superman moments written by creator Jerry Siegel such as this...

...were intended to be dead serious and not comedic? Or you are just trying to ignore all of those examples I provided. Those moments were obviously intended to be comedic and showed Superman's sense of humor. And of course the many Superman stories featuring Mister Mxyztplk were intended to be comedic. While those Jack Kirby scans I posted were mostly all serious moments, there was some humor included there as well in Scrapper's reaction to the Zoomway. Also in Jack Kirby's run there was insult comedian Don Rickles and Goodie Rickles. Those stories featuring Don Rickles and Goodie Rickles were obviously intended to be comedic.



Jack Kirby also created a little creature named Charlie who eats chairs as more comic relief to his run on Superman's Pal, Jimmy Olsen.

Even John Byrne's The Man of Steel had comedic moments, again showing Superman's sense of humor, toying with criminals humorously.

[theMan-Bat]

John Byrne even brought back Mister Mxyzptlk during his Superman run, with those Superman stories obviously intended to be comedic.







I'm not saying a Superman movie needs to have this much humor, unless it's a Superman movie featuring Mister Mxyzptlk, I'm just proving a point that Superman stories contained humor provided by Superman and other characters in the Golden Age, Silver Age, Bronze Age and Modern Age.

Originally Posted by Dr.

Yes, it’s a nickname - and a fairly ubiquitous one at that (do a search on SHH and count the hits). If you’re campaigning against it, you’ve got a lot of work ahead of you.

People are of course free to use it. I just don't care for it in reference to Superman. I find it a rather undignified nickname for the character.

I prefer Supes as the strong, silent, Gary Cooper-ish type. In the right situation, smiles are fine.

You are of course free to prefer whatever soups you like, but there is no more "right" version of Superman than the original Golden Age version that was conceived and created by Jerry Siegel and Joe Shuster in the first place, and that Superman was the lively, smiling, wisecracking Douglas Fairbanks type. Douglas Fairbanks was the influence on the creation of Superman's personality. The characters basic personality should be retained. Move too far away from that and then the character is no longer authentic.

Getting back to the topic of Superman Lives...

The Strick screenplay. The Smith one was pretty weak too - but as I recall, it had better dialogue. Clearly, both were hampered by the bizarre constraints imposed by Peters. I haven't read Gilroy.

I've made it quite clear that I prefer the Strick script, so I obviously disagree with that view.

[theMan-Bat]

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

Smith's dialogue was definitely better

I don't agree with that. Kevin Smith scripted Lois saying with Clark Kent "It's always, 'Gee, shucks Lois,' and all that Kansas boy scout babble" and Lois refers to Clark as "Dudley Do-Right" and says "I'm the kind of woman who likes a man in tights." Superman pulls glasses from his cape and puts them on and says he's Clark and Lois faints and then says "Must we go though this every night?" So she mocks Clark and fake faints every night already knowing the secret identity. When Superman asks her for dinner she says "Not Burger King again." Lois says to Superman "You're such a goof" for drinking orange juice. Superman says about Krypton "There was a planet. It blew up. End of story." Lois says to Jimmy, "Would you shut up all ready." L-Ron says "B*tch, b*tch, b*tch." The Eradictor says to Superman "B*tch b*tch b*tch." Lex Luthor "I can't believe the b*tch tagged me." L-Ron says "Back to your tree, monkey man." and calls Lex Luthor "Baldy." Lex Luthor wears a t-shirt that say "I'M A MANIAC FOR BRAINIAC", Lex Luthor calls Superman "Stupid-Man." Superman says to the Eradictor "On our way, buddy. WOOOOOO-HOOOOOOOO!!" Superman says to the Eradicator, “You’ve been in the Fortress all this time and I didn’t know it?!? Wait, wait, wait… did you ever see Lois and I… while we… Well, why the hell did you never say anything?!” Etc., etc. I don't consider that definitely better dialogue.

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

Man-Bat what are some of the differences in both drafts of Kevin Smith's Superman Lives?

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

The January 31st, 1997 Superman Lives script by Kevin Smith opens on Krypton at the Council meeting were Jor-El tells the Council members that Krypton is doomed and they must all leave the planet and they don't believe him and mock him and laugh at him. The Council calls on Brainiac who tells them that Krypton is in no danger. Jor-El says, "He's lying!" The Council hall begins to crumble as the surface of Krypton explodes. Jor-El runs to his lab. The Eradicator with the "S" emblem saves Lara from an elevator shaft. Jor-El rockets Kal-El with the Eradicator off Krypton. Krypton explodes. Kal-El's rocketship goes past Brainiac's satellite. Brainiac says, "Predictable to the last, Jor-El. It took the destruction of your planet, but I now have access to your precious Eradicator technology." Brainiac's satellite shoots a blue beam of light at Kal-El's rocketship, to suck energy from it. Brainiac says, "Ahhhhh! The power!" Brainiac's satellite suddenly transforms itself into the Skull Ship. Suddenly the space surrounding what was Krypton transforms into a Black Hole, sucking Brainiac's Skull Ship into it and fire sweeps through the Skull Ship, burning Brainiac, as Brainiac says "Nooooo!"

In the January 31st, 1997 script by Kevin Smith, on the island of Corto Maltese Superman fights Aquaman villain Black Manta and his Manta Ray submarine and Batman villain Deadshot. Deadshot yells, "WE CLAIM THE ISLAND OF CORTO MALTESE IN THE NAME OF THE LEGION OF DOOM!!!" Superman easily defeats them. Black Manta's helmet explodes in Superman's hands, but doesn't hurt Superman or anyone at all.

In the January 31st, 1997 script by Kevin Smith, the Skull Ship blasts a laser at the Metropolis Bridges suspension cables. The bridge begins to snap and crumble. Superman strains to hold the suspension cables. Superman says "Need...more...strength." The Eradictor says to Superman "B*tch...b*tch...b*tch."

In the January 31st, 1997 script by Kevin Smith, Superman says to the Eradictor "On our way, buddy. WOOOOOO-HOOOOOOOO!!"

The March 27th, 1997 Superman Lives script by Kevin Smith opens in space with an alien space ship approaching what they think is an asteroid, and it is actually Brainiac's Skull Ship and tentacles wrap themselves around the space ship, and sucks the electrical energy out of the space ship. Brainiac enters the space ship and the aliens shoot him with laser guns but it has no effect and Brainiac grabs the laser guns, jamming them into his body -- consuming the lasers into his form, energizing. Brainiac drops the laser guns, and his hands morph into tendrils, which plunge into the chests of the aliens. He absorbs the aliens life forces and they explode, covering the space ship cabin in goo. Brainiac takes the Thanagarian Snare Beast, infancy stage, from the alien space ship.

In the March 27th, 1997 script by Kevin Smith, on Hob's Bay Street in Metropolis Superman fights Batman villain Deadshot and masked thugs. Superman defeats them easily.

In the March 27th, 1997 script by Kevin Smith, Lex Luthor has a girlfriend named Misty. There is a scientist named Shuster working at Lextech.

In the March 27th, 1997 script by Kevin Smith, two statue-like polar bears are outside the massive front doors of the Fortress of Solitude, obviously at Jon Peters request.

In the March 27th, 1997 script by Kevin Smith, Superman says "You've been in the Fortress all this time and I didn't know it?!? (thinks) Wait, wait, wait... did you ever see Lois and I... while we...Well, why the hell did you never say anything?!"

There's an apartment building fire in the March 27th, 1997 script by Kevin Smith. Tenants pour out of the building. The Eradicator kicks a hydrant open and water begins spilling onto the street. Superman soaks himself in it from head to toe. He races off into the building, leaving the Eradicator just standing there. Superman powerlessly saves everyone in the burning building.

Kevin Smith has Jimmy Olsen say "Holy ****!" when he sees Superman in the March 27th, 1997 script by Kevin Smith.

In April, 1997 Tim Burton signed on to directed Superman Lives and had Wisley Strick (who had doctored Daniel Waters' Batman Returns script) doctor Kevin Smith's two drafts, retaining the basic plot and story structure, adding Tim Burton's own ideas and removing the majority of Jon Peters' ideas.

Originally Posted by BH/HHH

Ill have to read Stricks again.

Also on the subject above of scripts my favourite script was definitely the Cary Bates one. I'd have loved to have seen that film made in the 90s.

The Mark Jones and Cary Bates drafts were the first scripts called Superman Reborn (a title which was eventually changed by Kevin Smith to Superman Lives) and featuring Brainiac, and Superman thought to have died, been killed, in the script. But unfortunately, the script opens with Brainiac enthralled with silly TV comedy shows like I Love Lucy, the Honeymooners. Brainiac has a Space-Ark instead of the Skull Ship. Brainiac comes to Earth to learn about Superman. Brainiac disguises himself as a Earthling in order to fully comprehend Earthlings. Lois Lane decides to leave Superman and quite the Daily Planet and leave Metropolis since Superman can't devote all of his attention to her. Lois hopes to meet someone else with "both feet on the ground." Superman watches the woman he loves walk out of his life. Brainiac shrinks Metropolis and holds it and it's citizens hostage on the Space-Ark. Brainiac publicly battles Superman and appears to have killed Superman. Afterwards, Lois has dinner with Brainiac and he attempts to romance and seduce Lois. "It must be love." Lois says she needs three days to get over Superman before she can give herself to Brainiac. Much of the script features Superman powerlessly stuck in the miniature Kandor wearing a white Kryptonian Kal-El suit with a black "S". After the Kryptonians escape Kandor, they find a new home, a new Krypon. Superman asks Lois to marry him and she accepts. Lex Luthor is completely absent from the script, not even a mention on Luthor.

While not my favorite script, I definitely prefer it over Jonathan Lemkin's Christian Bible-based Superman Reborn script with the immaculate conception, Lois Lane impregnated with Superman's spirit, etc. which deviated waaaay too far from the Superman mythos.

[theMan-Bat]

Here is a video update by Jon Schnepp about the The Death of Superman Lives: What Happened? documentary. So far at this early stage, before it's even been fully funded ($86,988 funded so far), Wesley Strick and Grant Morrison have agreed and been confirmed for the documentary.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/.../?ref=kicktraq

[BH/HHH]

Originally Posted by theMan-Bat

I don't agree with that. Kevin Smith scripted Lois saying with Clark Kent "It's always, 'Gee, shucks Lois,' and all that Kansas boy scout babble" and Lois refers to Clark as "Dudley Do-Right" and says "I'm the kind of woman who likes a man in tights." Superman pulls glasses from his cape and puts them on and says he's Clark and Lois faints and then says "Must we go though this every night?" So she mocks Clark and fake faints every night already knowing the secret identity. When Superman asks her for dinner she says "Not Burger King again." Lois says to Superman "You're such a goof" for drinking orange juice. Superman says about Krypton "There was a planet. It blew up. End of story." Lois says to Jimmy, "Would you shut up all ready." L-Ron says "B*tch, b*tch, b*tch." The Eradictor says to Superman "B*tch b*tch b*tch." Lex Luthor "I can't believe the b*tch tagged me." L-Ron says "Back to your tree, monkey man." and calls Lex Luthor "Baldy." Lex Luthor wears a t-shirt that say "I'M A MANIAC FOR BRAINIAC", Lex Luthor calls Superman "Stupid-Man." Superman says to the Eradictor "On our way, buddy. WOOOOOO-HOOOOOOOO!!" Superman says to the Eradicator, “You’ve been in the Fortress all this time and I didn’t know it?!? Wait, wait, wait… did you ever see Lois and I… while we… Well, why the hell did you never say anything?!” Etc., etc. I don't consider that definitely better dialogue.

I actually take that back have started re-reading Smiths script I do think the dialogues pretty poor.

Originally Posted by theMan-Bat

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

The January 31st, 1997 Superman Lives script by Kevin Smith opens on Krypton at the Council meeting were Jor-El tells the Council members that Krypton is doomed and they must leave all the planet and they don't believe him and mock him and laugh at him. The Council calls on Brainiac who tells them that Krypton is in no danger. Jor-El says, "He's lying!" The Council hall begins to crumble as the surface of Krypton explodes. Jor-El runs to his lab. The Eradicator with the "S" emblem saves Lara from an elevator shaft. Jor-El rockets Kal-El with the Eradicator off Krypton. Krypton explodes. Kal-El's rocketship goes past Brainiac's satellite. Brainiac says, "Predictable to the last, Jor-El. It took the destruction of your planet, but I now have access to your precious Eradicator technology." Brainiac's satellite shoots a blue beam of light at Kal-El's rocketship, to suck energy from it. Brainiac says, "Ahhhhh! The power!" Brainiac's satellite suddenly transforms itself into the Skull Ship. Suddenly the space surrounding what was Krypton transforms into a Black Hole, sucking Brainiac's Skull Ship into it and fire sweeps through the Shull Ship, burning Brainiac, as Brainiac says "Nooooo!"

In the January 31st, 1997 script by Kevin Smith on the island of Corto Maltese Superman fights Aquaman villain Black Manta and his Manta Ray submarine and Batman villain Deadshot. Deadshot yells, "WE CLAIM THE ISLAND OF CORTO MALTESE IN THE NAME OF THE LEGION OF DOOM!!!" Superman easily defeats them. Black Manta's helmet explodes in Superman's hands, but doesn't hurt Superman or anyone at all.

In the January 31st, 1997 script by Kevin Smith the Skull Ship blasts a laser at the Metropolis Bridges suspension cables. The bridge begins to snap and crumble. Superman strains to hold the suspension cables. Superman says "Need...more...strength." The Eradictor says to Superman "B*tch...b*tch...b*tch."

In the January 31st, 1997 script by Kevin Smith Superman says to the Eradictor "On our way, buddy. WOOOOOO-HOOOOOOOO!!"

The March 27th, 1997 Superman Lives script by Kevin Smith opens in space with an alien space ship approaching what they think is an asteroid, and it is actually Brainiac's Skull Ship and tentacles wrap themselves around the space ship, and sucks the electrical energy out of the space ship. Brainiac enters the space ship and the aliens shoot him with laser guns but it has no effect and Brainiac grabs the laser guns, jamming them into his body -- consuming the lasers into his form, energizing. Brainiac drops the laser guns, and his hands morph into tendrils, which plunge into the chests of the aliens. He absorbs the aliens life forces and they explode, covering the space ship cabin in goo. Brainiac takes the Thanagarian Snare Beast, infancy stage, from the alien space ship.

In the March 27th, 1997 script by Kevin Smith on Hob's Bay Street in Metropolis Superman fights Batman villain Deadshot and masked thugs. Superman defeats them easily.

In the March 27th, 1997 script by Kevin Smith Lex Luthor has a girlfriend named Misty. There is a scientist named Shuster working at Lextech.

In the March 27th, 1997 script by Kevin Smith two statue-like polar bears are outside the massive front doors of the Fortress of Solitude, obviously at Jon Peters request.

In the March 27th, 1997 script by Kevin Smith Superman says "You've been in the Fortress all this time and I didn't know it?!? (thinks) Wait, wait, wait... did you ever see Lois and I... while we...Well, why the hell did you never say anything?!"

There's an apartment building fire in the March 27th, 1997 script by Kevin Smith. Tenants pour out of the building. The Eradicator kicks a hydrant open and water begins spilling onto the street. Superman soaks himself in it from head to toe. He races off into the building, leaving the Eradicator just standing there. Superman powerlessly saves everyone in the burning building.

Kevin Smith has Jimmy Olsen say "Holy ****!" when he sees Superman in the March 27th, 1997 script.

In April, 1997 Tim Burton signed on to directed Superman Lives and had Wistley Strick (who had doctored Daniel Waters' Batman Returns script) doctor Kevin Smith's two drafts, retaining the basic plot and story structure, adding Tim Burton's own ideas and removing the majority of Jon Peters' ideas.

Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

Wow that's really interesting doe of the Janary stuff sounds really bad. E secularly that LOD bit.

Originally Posted by theMan-Bat

The Mark Jones and Cary Bates drafts were the first scripts called Superman Reborn (a title which was eventually changed by Kevin Smith to Superman Lives) and featuring Brainiac and Superman thought to have died. But unfortunately, the script opens with Brainiac enthralled with silly TV comedy shows like I Love Lucy, the Honeymooners. Brainiac has a Space-Ark instead of the Skull Ship. Brainiac comes to Earth to learn about Superman. Brainiac disguises himself as a Earthling in order to fully comprehend Earthlings. Lois Lane decides to leave Superman and quite the Daily Planet and leave Metropolis since Superman can't devote all of his attention to her. Lois hopes to meet someone else with "both feet on the ground." Superman watches the woman he loves walk out of his life. Brainiac shrinks Metropolis and holds it and it's citizens hostage on the Space-Ark. Brainiac publicly battles Superman and appears to have killed Superman. Afterwards, Lois has dinner with Brainiac and he attempts to romance and seduce Lois. "It must be love." Lois says she needs three days to get over Superman before she can give herself to Brainiac. Much of the script features Superman powerlessly stuck in the miniature Kandor wearing a white Kryptonian Kal-El suit with a black "S". After the Kryptonians escape Kandor, they find a new home, a new Krypon. Superman asks Lois to marry him and she accepts. Lex Luthor is completely absent from the script, not even a mention on Luthor.

While not my favorite script, I definitely prefer it over Jonathan Lemkin's Christian Bible-based Superman Reborn script with the immaculate conception, impregnated with Superman's spirit, etc. which deviated waaaay too far from the Superman mythos.

Never read Jonathan Lemkin's script thankfully sounds awful. I really do love the Cary Bates script wish they'd made it myself. Don't know why but I picture Rutger Hauer as Brainiac on that. I also heard Christopher Reeve was interested in doing that one.


Btw I just finished reading the Gilroy draft really enjoyed it actually.