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Old 02-01-2013, 11:20 PM   #151
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Also, I like to believe that he wants it that way. If he had a record of any kind, he made sure that there was no trace for it. "Nothing. No matches on prints, DNA, dental. Clothing is custom, no labels. Nothing in his pockets but knives and lint. No name, no other alias. "

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Old 02-02-2013, 12:16 AM   #152
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Unless he grew up on the streets and lived in street gangs. Such theory and background for Ledger's Joker was presented in one of the post TDK stories



In there he killed his parents when he was a kid and lived on the streets. Such background presents a plausible explanation for having no name and no identity
What comic is this?

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Old 02-03-2013, 01:00 AM   #153
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Someone could answer me?

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Old 02-03-2013, 01:18 AM   #154
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I'm not sure, but it seems to be "Lovers and Madmen" from Batman Confidential #7-#12.

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Old 02-28-2013, 09:20 AM   #155
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Default Re: The Joker's background?

No it's not from 'Lovers and Madmen'. I have that arc. The art style and story is very different to those panels.

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Old 02-28-2013, 03:31 PM   #156
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It's from Brave and the Bold #20 something or 30 something

edit: It's the 31.


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Old 02-28-2013, 05:33 PM   #157
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Thanks.

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Old 03-03-2013, 07:13 PM   #158
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Unless he grew up on the streets and lived in street gangs. Such theory and background for Ledger's Joker was presented in one of the post TDK stories



In there he killed his parents when he was a kid and lived on the streets. Such background presents a plausible explanation for having no name and no identity
Did the Joker give Bane his old jacket??

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Old 03-03-2013, 07:19 PM   #159
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What if he was a demon, or even the devil himself, who just one day materialized into Gotham?
Didn't Nolan say something about him coming out of thin air on that sidewalk or something?
He also mentioned Loki the trickster, coyotes in Native American mythology I believe etc.
I love how this character is so mysterious, an enigma open to many different interpretations.
Truly a "self-made" man.

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Old 03-03-2013, 11:08 PM   #160
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Did the Joker give Bane his old jacket??
Maybe it's a growing fashion trend in Batman's rogues gallery

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Old 07-06-2013, 01:12 PM   #161
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First thread here.

We all know that the Joker told two separate stories of how he got his scars. But one thing occurred to me...he mentions more than once that he hated his father.

Moreover, he says "You remind me of my father...I HATED my father!" to a party guest who may be a man of power. The party guest was Senator Patrick Leahy. Makes sense that a well-known politician is at a political fundraiser for Harvey Dent, doesn't it?

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but if we go with this, then it could be deduced that the Joker's father was a man of authority....a politician, or a lawyer, or a military officer perhaps? A man who was a hypocrite who treated his family despicably while portraying himself as an all-American model father and authority figure.

So maybe the Joker came from a financially comfortable background. Maybe he was born into privilege and was well-educated...a member of the "perfect family" gone horribly, horribly wrong.

Anyway, that's my long-winded speculation. Any thoughts?
I agree but have you we ever thought that the Jokers background could be linked to his depressing childhood and this is what made him who is. I'm currently doing a thesis on how your childhood makes up who you are and i am especially focusing on the Joker because he is just a sublime example of what makes a villain.

I like your whole concept i want to hear more.

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Old 07-07-2013, 07:12 AM   #162
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I agree but have you we ever thought that the Jokers background could be linked to his depressing childhood and this is what made him who is. I'm currently doing a thesis on how your childhood makes up who you are and i am especially focusing on the Joker because he is just a sublime example of what makes a villain.

I like your whole concept i want to hear more.
No offense really but that sounds like the most generic subject for a thesis i've ever heard? Sort of like doing a thesis on how eating a lot makes you over-weight.

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Old 10-14-2013, 12:08 PM   #163
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I don't believe he was a psycho in his childhood.

He holds his views on life, law, right and wrong, as philosophy. You could say, as he's obviously highly intelligent, that he suffered a mental brake. Probably done by an over thinking of philosophy. He has suicidal tendencies, a lack of concern for his own life, and this was probably brought on by him thinking life is one big joke. He cracked the **** up, because he couldn't find a point or reason for people existing, even the universe.

Within that, the rules and decency of a normal society no longer applied to him. He couldn't go back to the way he was, if he ever was "sane" prior, of course.

Joker intended to take away the rules and decency away, as he thought it was what caused society from becoming like him. To him, it was all an apithany.
To him, without rules, society has no conscience. Everything will descend into madness, as that, he believes, is the true nature of people. Rules keep us grounded and sane, to the laws a decent society has layed down for us to follow.
Joker wants to eradicate all that, as he sees us as the ones who are crazy, not him.
That was his reason for living, imo. To break the human spirit, installed with the rules and morals of a decent society. Social restraints, that keep us held back from being who he believes us to be...and that is, monsters.

To me, Joker was incredibly philosophical. So much so, I believe he drove himself mad with his revelation and tried to kill himself, only to survive. This, in turn, left him with the scars in his face...resembling a smile.
He probably found it funny. The trauma in that, mixed in with his new views on life, that it's all just a joke, led him on that spiral.

To be honest, I believe, this Joker has crafted his look in order to hold a mirror up to society. To show them, that this is what we all are, but none of you don't realise it.
Batman took absurdity to a new level, and his life was fixated on battling crime and upholding the law. Something Joker already opposed. So, he was both inspired and obsessed with Batman. Taking upon himself to destroy this force that had both a mix of madness and sanity.

To Joker, he's not crazy. On the outside of the box, he's sane. We, inside the box, are the ones that are crazy.

He embraces chaos and madness, because he knows they are the tools that will break the chains of law and order that hold us back from being our true selves.

Joker knows that it's evil, but to him, it's what we all are deep down. He simply wants to establish himself as Emperor of the new world order he's showing us, a world hidden away by unnecessary rules, a concept he can no longer follow. He wants to be king of the jokers.

Because that's what life is to him, a joke, and we are nothing but clown's for the amusement of nobody.
Rules and sanity have prevented our eyes from being opened, and it's his mission to open our eyes to the world as he sees it.

Even then, he wouldn't call it his legacy. Because, nothing matters to him anyway. He's just an agent of Chaos, not a force above it.
If Jesus was the messenger of God, then Joker is the messenger of the Devil.

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Old 10-14-2013, 12:39 PM   #164
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Did the Joker give Bane his old jacket??
BANE: Nice coat.

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Old 10-14-2013, 02:52 PM   #165
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I don't believe he was a psycho in his childhood.

He holds his views on life, law, right and wrong, as philosophy. You could say, as he's obviously highly intelligent, that he suffered a mental brake. Probably done by an over thinking of philosophy. He has suicidal tendencies, a lack of concern for his own life, and this was probably brought on by him thinking life is one big joke. He cracked the **** up, because he couldn't find a point or reason for people existing, even the universe.

Within that, the rules and decency of a normal society no longer applied to him. He couldn't go back to the way he was, if he ever was "sane" prior, of course.

Joker intended to take away the rules and decency away, as he thought it was what caused society from becoming like him. To him, it was all an apithany.
To him, without rules, society has no conscience. Everything will descend into madness, as that, he believes, is the true nature of people. Rules keep us grounded and sane, to the laws a decent society has layed down for us to follow.
Joker wants to eradicate all that, as he sees us as the ones who are crazy, not him.
That was his reason for living, imo. To break the human spirit, installed with the rules and morals of a decent society. Social restraints, that keep us held back from being who he believes us to be...and that is, monsters.

To me, Joker was incredibly philosophical. So much so, I believe he drove himself mad with his revelation and tried to kill himself, only to survive. This, in turn, left him with the scars in his face...resembling a smile.
He probably found it funny. The trauma in that, mixed in with his new views on life, that it's all just a joke, led him on that spiral.

To be honest, I believe, this Joker has crafted his look in order to hold a mirror up to society. To show them, that this is what we all are, but none of you don't realise it.
Batman took absurdity to a new level, and his life was fixated on battling crime and upholding the law. Something Joker already opposed. So, he was both inspired and obsessed with Batman. Taking upon himself to destroy this force that had both a mix of madness and sanity.

To Joker, he's not crazy. On the outside of the box, he's sane. We, inside the box, are the ones that are crazy.

He embraces chaos and madness, because he knows they are the tools that will break the chains of law and order that hold us back from being our true selves.

Joker knows that it's evil, but to him, it's what we all are deep down. He simply wants to establish himself as Emperor of the new world order he's showing us, a world hidden away by unnecessary rules, a concept he can no longer follow. He wants to be king of the jokers.

Because that's what life is to him, a joke, and we are nothing but clown's for the amusement of nobody.
Rules and sanity have prevented our eyes from being opened, and it's his mission to open our eyes to the world as he sees it.

Even then, he wouldn't call it his legacy. Because, nothing matters to him anyway. He's just an agent of Chaos, not a force above it.
If Jesus was the messenger of God, then Joker is the messenger of the Devil.

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Old 10-14-2013, 02:59 PM   #166
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Default Re: The Joker's background?

Thanks for the applause, Ross!

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Old 10-14-2013, 03:14 PM   #167
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Old 10-14-2013, 03:20 PM   #168
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Old 10-14-2013, 05:55 PM   #169
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Do you know the film Hesher, with Joseph Gordon Lewitt and Natalie Portman? It shows a possible young Joker before becoming crazy and cutting his face:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1403177/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

Here the trailer:

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:


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Old 10-14-2013, 08:44 PM   #170
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Default Re: The Joker's background?

A theory into his life.

I don't believe his parents were bad.
They might, though I'm not too sure, might've been too strict on him. He has issues with wanting to obtain total freedom and listening to a higher authority.
This might have something to do with his upbringing. He could've felt trapped under their harsh rules that he to abide by.
He MIGHT have killed his parents. But I don't believe he would have done it as a child.
It's interesting to note, whenever he brings his father up in conversation, he raises his knife to someone's face.
Do I believe his father had something to do with his mental state? Yes. But I cant determine whether or not it was because he was a good man or a bad man.
Honestly? I think his father was a good person, perhaps a bit too strict, but nevertheless, a good man.
A point is, when Joker tells the story to Gambol, he's clearly thinking and imagining and lying about his father.
All Joker knows is, is that he hates his father, not for being good or bad, but for being a domineering presence in his life. A presence that made him feel that his life and freedom was not his own. A man with one rule - that he is in charge of what happens in his son's life.

It probably added to Joker's philosophy, that the only sensible way to live in the world is without rules. Without them, we are free to behave the way we want, the way we truly are inside, according to him.

He never seems to blame himself. It's either his father or "wife" that gets the blame for the way he is.
His feelings towards his father is hatred, though he's probably not sure why he feels that way.
With his "wife", it was love. A desire to see her smile after her face was scarred.

Joker is OBESSESED with mutilation. He needs to tell a story that involves him being mutilated. Why?
Because it haunts him. I'm certain he mutilated his face in an attempted suicide. When people are traumatized, they obviously feel the need to talk about the problem with someone who will listen. Joker has Gambol, Rachel and Batman in his clutches when relaying his story of mutilation upon them. Though Batman managed to knock Joker off the building before he could tell his new tale.
Joker had Harvey at his mercy, but didn't relay his story. Why? I believe it was because Harvey was mutilated in his own way. He didn't feel the need to do it, because Harvey was now physically and mentally damaged, ripe for Joker's brainwashing.

I find it interesting though. After Joker tells his story he proceeds to cut and kill his victim. He's like an abuser, passing on his pain to others. Forcing them into things they don't want to do. He takes away the freedom of certain individuals in order for them to listen and see what he wants them to. A control freak....like his father before him, perhaps?


I don't believe it was father that caused his breakdown. But I believe him to be a contributing factor.
I believe Joker cracked up because he couldn't make sense of things anymore through a philosophical view of societal and social existence. Yet, he focused on the existence of rules. He hated rules. They prevented him from doing what he wanted and being who he inherently thought he was, who we all are. Absurd human beings. Evil. Nothing but jokes. Crazy for being blinded to the truth, because of our rules grounding us to a decent society.

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Old 10-15-2013, 12:16 AM   #171
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Fantastic theory. But im not so sure if Joker was the one who did it to himself. It's a high possibility. And ive thought about that before. But it could also be at the hands of somebody else. Maybe his father, maybe a gangster, maybe he was abused and this was done to him at some point. Isolation (which parallels Heath finding a way to isolate himself in a hotel room to get into the mindset). So yes, isolation and abuse for any number of years could have made Joker lose all faith in humanity.

The gangster route always sounds cliché to me. I don't like it. So I think it was himself, his father or some stranger in general that did this to him. But not some gangster who carves his face up for money or whatever.

Id say his father is a big part of his evolution. And there's a woman involved too. Of course I don't believe the literal stories Joker tells about these two people...the details are not fact IMO. But there's a reason why this woman and father enter his stories. It's partly a call for help (subconsciously maybe, if he comes up with these stories on the spot) but without actually telling his victim his past with them.

The mystery is what im attracted to the most. I don't ever want to know what really happened, and nobody has that answer either. The only person that may have came up with something definitive for a backstory would have been Heath Ledger. And in a haunting way, that's another reason why we'll never know.

I see him almost as the devil. A lost demonic soul who just IS. He comes into the story like a ghost and exits the story the same way. And I don't mean when they capture him, throwing him in Arkham Asylum. Im referring to the TDKR novelization where there's a possibility that he has vanished from the institute. Which is what I choose to think happens. Never to be found again.

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Old 10-15-2013, 04:32 AM   #172
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I don't agree totally with you, I think you're forgetting a key detail in the Joker's existence: Batman. I think Batman's the reason of the Joker's existence, and I'm not refering to the man behind the clown make-up, I'm talking about the character. I think the Joker was a man with a very high spiritual level who disregarded social rules and habits, but not a specially dangerous or violent one. He was like the voluntary tramp of Nietzsche who's beyond the goals imposed by society (money, power, stability...) and who limits himself to exist. Until Batman appears. Batman is his nemesis, obsessed with a vast war he can't ever win (a war against the violence, which is a primordial part of human being), and he's such crazy that the pre-Joker sees himself forced to act. And he acts.

He creates the Joker persona, he cuts his face and with the make-up gives himself the appearance of a clown. He wants to mirror Batman in a ridiculous way, mocking him. That's the reason behind the attacks of the hospital and the ferrys, he wants to force people to be violent and kill in order to show Batman that everyone can be a criminal and, consequently, that his crusade is totally absurd. He wants to show Batman HE is the real clown.


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Old 10-15-2013, 06:23 AM   #173
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It's a theory, and a one I agree with on a few levels.

Joker became who he was because of Batman, he was influenced.
But I don't agree it was primarily through Batman.
It goes back further.
The story about his scars, it's because he's traumatized.
To me, he's had them for years and he's obsessed with with them.
When he says
"I believe whatever doesn't kill you..."
He's clearly referring to his own failed sucide attempt. He survived and it made him "stranger".
He likes to use knives and exact mutilation on others. He's performing on others, what he did to himself years prior to TDK. He survived having his face cut open and others usually don't.
So, upon his survival, he was messed up.

And of course, it couldn't have been done without seeing Batman.

So I imagine he was mental for a long time before seeing Batman, and seeing the changes this costumed freak was making to society in Gotham, it gave him the kick to unleash his true self, the Joker.

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Old 10-15-2013, 07:30 AM   #174
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Fantastic theory. But im not so sure if Joker was the one who did it to himself. It's a high possibility. And ive thought about that before. But it could also be at the hands of somebody else. Maybe his father, maybe a gangster, maybe he was abused and this was done to him at some point. Isolation (which parallels Heath finding a way to isolate himself in a hotel room to get into the mindset). So yes, isolation and abuse for any number of years could have made Joker lose all faith in humanity.

The gangster route always sounds cliché to me. I don't like it. So I think it was himself, his father or some stranger in general that did this to him. But not some gangster who carves his face up for money or whatever.

Id say his father is a big part of his evolution. And there's a woman involved too. Of course I don't believe the literal stories Joker tells about these two people...the details are not fact IMO. But there's a reason why this woman and father enter his stories. It's partly a call for help (subconsciously maybe, if he comes up with these stories on the spot) but without actually telling his victim his past with them.

The mystery is what im attracted to the most. I don't ever want to know what really happened, and nobody has that answer either. The only person that may have came up with something definitive for a backstory would have been Heath Ledger. And in a haunting way, that's another reason why we'll never know.

I see him almost as the devil. A lost demonic soul who just IS. He comes into the story like a ghost and exits the story the same way. And I don't mean when they capture him, throwing him in Arkham Asylum. Im referring to the TDKR novelization where there's a possibility that he has vanished from the institute. Which is what I choose to think happens. Never to be found again.
It could be through someone else, his scarring. But I've noticed this in the comics and the film. Joker blames EVERYBODY else but himself for the way he is.
He blames Batman in the comics and in this film, blames his father, wife and to a lesser extent, Batman.
When people are like that, it's usually because they try to shift the guilt of their behaviour onto the actions of others. So, I believe, there is no one else but to blame for his scarring and what not other than on himself.
He'll always accuse others, and they may be contributing factors as to why he did it, but I firmly think he mutilated himself by his own hand and blames others for being the reasons.

Spooky, that he just disappeared lol
A religious point of view, he is someone that is trying to destroy the word of God, without anybody catching on to his real agenda. Rules (Commandments) were sent by God to keep us grounded and good, so one day we may enter Heaven.
It's like Joker wants to destroy that possibility.
Without commandments, we give into a life of complete sin. Joker is like the Devil, a minion more so. Tempting people to give into a life of freedom (sin), which corrupts our souls and leads us on a path to Hell.
Batman could be represented by the archangel, Michael. Upholding God's law as his leading soldier, that combats the forces of evil.

Law is God to Batman and Chaos is Satan to the Joker.

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Old 10-15-2013, 07:39 AM   #175
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But his scars don't look like the product of a failed suicide, don't? If someone wants to kill himself he doesn't cut his mouth in that way, there are ways much more effectives to get it. It looks more probable he made it during a psychotic outbreak, but it carries me to my second point:

The Ledger's Joker doesn't act like a psychotic/schizophrenic person, their actions along the movie doesn't correspond with that kind of subject. He knows what he's doing in every moment and how to get everything he wants, and that fits better with a psychopath totally centered in a mission, a psychopath who has created the Joker character to achieve it, being the stories of the scars just part of his performance. Why did he cut his mouth? To have a frightening appearance opposed to Batman's. Why does he tell different stories about the scars? To confuse their victims (and the spectators) and parody the traumatic origins of the typical movie villains. Why he mentions his father two times? Maybe he really hated him, maybe not, I don't know, but I'm sure it isn't important for what he's doing now (during the film, I mean), just part of the dramatic effect.


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