In hindsight what changes would you do

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

You know, after watching TDK again recently, I really enjoyed Rachel's character. To be blunt, I honestly think a lot of people who were glad she died were basing that on not her being a "b**chy" character who rejects Bruce Wayne. And both versions of Rachel had that spunk and attitude. Remember when Katie's version completely condescended Bruce on his birthday? ("You enjoy your party Bruce, some of us have work to do.")

I remember when I saw TDK with my mom, she was completely sucker punched by Rachel's death, even asking me "She's not really dead, is she?" I think the bloodlust for Rachel was more of a fanboy thing.

Those I spoke with were basing it on that. And they weren't fanboys. I'm glad at least your mom experienced the desired effect.

What she said to Bruce on his birthday was pretty called-for, as far as anybody who didn't know he was Batman could tell. In Begins, she was more of a motherly figure - in her scolding, in her advice, and in her warmth. In TDK, she's more spiteful and prissy. I can't think of a redeeming or wise moment.

You could reason it's because she's having a hard time with Bruce's obsession, but it seems a bit hypocritical considering her last scene in Begins, and an immature step back for her character. I can't respect it.

Funny, as I wound up feeling the same way about Bruce at the beginning of Rises!

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

Those I spoke with were basing it on that. And they weren't fanboys. I'm glad at least your mom experienced the desired effect.

What she said to Bruce on his birthday was pretty called-for, as far as anybody who didn't know he was Batman could tell. In Begins, she was more of a motherly figure - in her scolding, in her advice, and in her warmth. In TDK, she's more spiteful and prissy. I can't think of a redeeming or wise moment.

You could reason it's because she's having a hard time with Bruce's obsession, but it seems a bit hypocritical considering her last scene in Begins, and an immature step back for her character. I can't respect it.

Funny, as I wound up feeling the same way about Bruce at the beginning of Rises!

I can see how you can't respect that, but I feel her eventual objection to Bruce's crusade was justified. If you subscribe to the belief that Bruce had been Batman for a few years after BB going into TDK, she was probably growing tired of Bruce's promise that in the end, Batman was just a symbol that he would eventually step away from once his mission was complete.

Think about the scene at Harvey's fundraiser when Bruce continues to reassure her of the time Gotham would no longer need Batman, and that it's coming. She simply replies with "Bruce. You can't ask me to wait for that." Even when Harvey asks her to marry him a few scenes later; she still can't give Harvey a straight answer because she still has hope that Bruce's mission will come to an end soon.

But of course Rachel comes to the conclusion that, yes, Gotham will one day no longer need Batman; but even then Bruce will still need to have that outlet in his life, even if he doesn't quite realize that just yet.

The growth of the Rachel character in that regard would have been even better had Holmes stayed on board. But hey, them's the breaks.

[RustyCage]

I think the problem is more that I can't relate to Rachel, because I'm a different kind of person. At the end of Begins, she seemed to view it the way I did, which I liked, but then she backed down from it - and that's where I can't follow her anymore.

But in the end, it led to bolstering Harvey's development and Bruce's torment, so it worked out. I just wish it were done less abrasively.

Regarding your quote, "You can't ask me to wait for that", that always struck me as abrupt considering what she said at the end of Begins. Starkly contradictory. Kinda poisoned the water for the rest of her part in the movie.

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

I think the problem is more that I can't relate to Rachel, because I'm a different kind of person. At the end of Begins, she seemed to view it the way I did, which I liked, but then she backed down from it - and that's where I can't follow her anymore.

But in the end, it led to bolstering Harvey's development and Bruce's torment, so it worked out. I just wish it were done less abrasively.

Regarding your quote, "You can't ask me to wait for that", that always struck me as abrupt considering what she said at the end of Begins. Starkly contradictory. Kinda poisoned the water for the rest of her part in the movie.

Of course, you're a man. Men don't think like women!

But all jokes aside, like you said, at the end of the day it worked for Harvey and Bruce's character development.

[georgec]

Yea I rather like Rachel, too. I feel bad because perhaps before TDKR came out, I felt that Holmes had somehow given the better performance. o_O What was I smoking??

In retrospect Gyllenhaal was very good in the role, and Rachel's character was a big part of the saga and Bruce's development. He paid the ultimate price for being Batman.

But in a superhero movie it's quite a difficult feat to have people care about a side character like Rachel.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Welp RustyCage, I actually now see a new potential interpretation of the movie that I hadn't previously been considering. Which makes me appreciate it even more. Thanks

So, I just finished rewatching Begins. "Can they kill me before breakfast?" appears to be a quip about how horrible the prison food looks rather than about himself.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

[redfirebird2008]

With the rumors about Bale coming back, I'm kinda wishing they killed off Bruce so he can't come out of retirement.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by redfirebird2008

With the rumors about Bale coming back, I'm kinda wishing they killed off Bruce so he can't come out of retirement.

I feel the opposite.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

So, I just finished rewatching Begins. "Can they kill me before breakfast?" appears to be a quip about how horrible the prison food looks rather than about himself.

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

Hahaha, yeah I should have been clear when I made that remark, I don't think Bruce was literally looking to die in the Bhutanese prison and that line is clearly a joke.

But it's more the idea that Bruce has become lost and directionless once again in TDKR that makes my mind see a parallel there.

[AnneFan]

Originally Posted by redfirebird2008

With the rumors about Bale coming back, I'm kinda wishing they killed off Bruce so he can't come out of retirement.

Not sure if I believe that rumour. And the notion of Nolanverse mixing in with Superman's world seems off to me.

Though it would mean Selina could come back in some fashion...

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Hahaha, yeah I should have been clear when I made that remark, I don't think Bruce was literally looking to die in the Bhutanese prison and that line is clearly a joke.

But it's more the idea that Bruce has become lost and directionless once again in TDKR that makes my mind see a parallel there.

Definitely with you there.

[Anno_Domini]

Well, the rumor of Bale returning seems to be false

There goes my hope for what could be an unbelievably amazing World's Finest.

[redfirebird2008]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Well, the rumor of Bale returning seems to be false

Who to believe? Latino Review or Comic Book Movie? Neither one has a ton of credibility, but CBM is worse. This time I hope CBM is right for once.

[JackWhite]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

Well, the rumor of Bale returning seems to be false

There goes my hope for what could be an unbelievably amazing World's Finest.

Yeah, I'm pretty bummed. It seemed like this could have been perfect, especially if Nolan is looking after the project.

[uniqueweasel]

Something that I feel is a minor problem is the transition from Batman being hunted by all the cops then, after the marshal law and he breaks the cops out, there isn't any mistrust or anything, they just file past him like hey Bats, i'd of liked to have seen a little uneasiness around him, at first. Or maybe i'm nitpicking.

[DACrowe]

I watched The Dark Knight Returns Part 2 this week and for some reason it made me think this would have drastically made Batman and Bane's final fight even more enjoyable.

Actual scene:

BANE: So you came back to die with your city?
BATMAN: No, I came back to stop you.

I like Bane's line, but Batman's felt weak. Yes, he later gets the "Then, you have my permission to die" epic reprise quote, but there needed to be something more before he and Bane square off. Something that let's the audience stand up and cheer (metaphorically) for the Batman at the start of his final battle. Something that let's you smile at his badassery in the way people did during, say, his assault on the Joker at the end of TDK when ignoring Gordon. So...

Revised Scene:

BANE: So, you came back to die with your city? You are the fool to the end.
BATMAN: No. I'm the GODDAMN BATMAN.

Instantly cut into the brawl with epic Zimmer music. The line is still cheesy, like the original, but just cool enough that it would have escalated the tension greatly there.

[FeedOnATreeFrog]

main point: anything (even nothing) would have been better

[ThePhantasm]

BANE: So, you came back to die with your city?
BATMAN: Oh yeah, totally. That's my plan. No, you idiot.

BANE: So, you came back to die with your city?
BATMAN: Are you south american or something?

BANE: So, you came back to die with your city?
BATMAN: No, I came back to pretend to die and then set up some rookie cop as Batman in my place.

[Brain Damage]

Kevin Smith made a great point that Batman didn't even need to say anything and it would have still worked great.

[DACrowe]

I still like "No. I'm THE GODDAMN BATMAN."

I think that is a great line if delivered right and, for once, Bale's growl and vocal anger would be advantageous. It would get the audience pumped if delivered right.

[BatmanGoesToRio]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

Kevin Smith made a great point that Batman didn't even need to say anything and it would have still worked great.

This.
Batman should have never answered Bane's silly question with more than just a punch to his mask. Nolan's Batman talks too much IMHO.

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by DACrowe

I still like "No. I'm THE GODDAMN BATMAN."

I think that is a great line if delivered right and, for once, Bale's growl and vocal anger would be advantageous. It would get the audience pumped if delivered right.

Lol, I would have loved that but that would have been pretty cheeky I think. Almost like the "I'm the Juggernaut, b*tch!" line in X3.

[Mr. Wooden Alligator]

Bruce had unrealistic expectations for Rachel. I'd have Bane introduce himself with Batman's speech from Y1 about the people who feasted on Gotham, ending with the line "none of you are safe."

[Gotham's Knight]

I would have liked:

Bane: "Welcome to hell."
Batman: "This isn't hell, it's an operating table and I'm the surgeon."

[milost]

Here are the changes I'd make.


- No League of Shadows

- No Talia

- Bane is his own man with his own agenda, perhaps a true liberator that escaped a hellish prison, becomes a mercenary, pursues Batman and Gotham to break and own/lead. Perhaps an ex-league of shadows member, like Bruce. Have him escaping the pit as a child to mirror Bruce Wayne's experience with the bats and well. He knows that Batman is an equal opponent and respects him, but he stands in his way and must rally the city (which isn't hard to do since Batman is a "villain" now)

- Bane isn't a villain "per se", certainly not the mustache twirling evil thing we see in TDKR. He's the antagonist, but you can sort of relate to what he's trying to achieve, especially when you consider his upbringing (innocent child who serves and is punished for a crime he didn't commit). His life mirrors Bruce Wayne, as his upbringing consists of coming up from nothing, whereas Bruce had everything at his disposal to succeed. Bane is a self made man.

- More Selina Kyle/Catwoman, especially important to Bruce Wayne

- No clean energy bomb/nuclear weapon crap

- No 8 year plot device

- No "Harvey Dent Days" or "Harvey Dent Acts", Dent's name is simply untarnished and the people he put away remain locked up. Explain how Batman and Gordon's decision worked for the possibility of a brighter future

- Batman is a scapegoat for all the cities pain and suffering, the final straw. The city has had enough after what the Joker has put them through and everyone wants Batman's head and everyone's doors are getting knocked down for the "bastard that killed Dent". They trusted Batman, so for him to turn on him puts them at odds with the police department as well (who let him work with them). So there's pressure on Gordon and the GCPD to apprehend the vigilante known as Batman. And they have a few leads and know that he's simply a man . . .

- Batman's last appearance wasn't "that night", it took a while for the city to get "cleaned up". Rachel's death sent Bruce into a darker, downward spiral (we saw hints of this seeing how far he'd go with the Sonar concept "beautiful, isn't it"), he's in full Batman mode now. For his life to have meaning after Rachel's death, he feels compelled to be OUT there, even going after the pettiest of crimes just to have purpose. Thomas and Martha Wayne as well as Rachel were the catalysts for Batman, and now they're both gone. All Bruce has left is Alfred and Batman. Batman and crime is like a compulsion, a drug that is forever gnawing at him. He doesn't care about a "normal life", he's frozen in time as Batman. The "live long enough to see yourself become the villain" has gotten to his head, and he's become more darker than ever. He still won't take a life, but his tactics have been much more ruthless, cold, and calculating. He doesn't even need Fox's or Alfred's help anymore.

- He's pursuing a thief called "the Cat", Catwoman, who appears to be an obstacle Batman is having trouble in dealing with

- Batman is taking a toll on his life as Bruce Wayne, which is upsetting Alfred (who once believed in the persona that Bruce had built). Bruce seems to be on the edge of "getting lost in this monster of his". Selina Kyle enters Wayne's life and appears to be a new chance for a normal life. Alfred takes notice.

- Show Batman being hunted down by Gordon and the GCPD

- With the mob defeated, and most involved in organized crime put away (Batman and Gordon's plan worked, Dent's accusations stick) they concentrate all efforts on Batman, Gordon is getting worried because the chases are starting to get out of his hands and they're getting closer and closer to apprehending the Batman (Bruce is severely injured, the closest he's been to death yet), even despite Gordon's warnings/communication to Batman. There are even bounties on Batman's head.


- Enter Bane, the mercenary who comes in to take down Batman for the "good of Gotham City", people seem to respect this "unsung hero". He vows to bring the Dark Knight to justice and take him down.


- Gordon's apprehensive nature of capturing Batman hasn't gone unnoticed by Gotham, Bane and the GCPD (Gordon secretly communicates with Batman), they question him and consider him a traitor and want him to resign. His family can't take it anymore. The city is also baffled as to why Batman hasn't killed anyone and is seemingly continuing his quest to eradicate crime (Batman has been as covert as he possibly can, having regained an almost monstrous, terrifying new reputation, like the Batman Begins days)


- The truth about Dent emerges, Blackgate and Arkham have experience a break in that tires Batman out (who has been combating the injuries the GCPD have given him), Batman is broken/defeated by Bane Bane takes control of the city (he's been planning it for years)

- Alfred killed? Fox?

- Bruce is practically crippled, his war on the mob, on crime, against the League of Shadows, the Joker, freaks being hunted, and beaten by Bane has taken it's toll. He's lost pretty much everything but his name and company (that others want to desperately take over/take down). He's also at odds with himself (his Batman and Bruce persona) because he's discovered the woman he loves, Selina Kyle is a criminal, but Batman is against crime. Does he turn her in?

- Gordon is in a similar situation, having lost pretty much everything, including his reputation. He's at his lowest.

- Selina Kyle is also having the same problems, especially with Gotham the way it is. Is she Selina Kyle, the ascending social climber or Catwoman, the criminal jewel thief.

- Gotham is in chaos and panic, people are acting like caged animals. More in depth depiction of class wars?

- The city is pillaged, but there is a clear divide (there are people inspired by Batman, Gordon, Dent, for the forces of good)

- Years go by and Gotham is slowly rotting again

- Bane steps up, finalizing his plan after orchestrating everything and controls the city with his own laws, much like TDKR but there is no nuclear threat. He uses brute force, strategy, his army and the city's pain to spread his ideals and power

- Gordon, after being injured and in terrible condition by a lynch mob, urges Batman to come back (after not seeing his friend for years)

- Bruce has to get back in the game, Gotham needs him more than ever. He must retrain, reheal, and relearn what he learned to take down Bane

- Batman defeats Bane

- Bruce Wayne helps "rebuild" Gotham brick for brick.


- In the end, maybe the Batman persona is sacrificed for the city too, a relentless symbol of fear, justice and to be inspired by. He puts the cowl and cape away. But Bruce Wayne still remains and gets to live a happy life (maybe with Kyle). He does what he should have done all along, focus his priorities on the city with his wealth to combat the poverty that creates crime and hopelessness (which helps create crime) Bruce Wayne can also be a symbol of hope as he pours himself into philanthropy like his father.


Or maybe he finally finds balance between both personas and if the city should happen to need a Batman, he'll be there.