Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

[OutOfBoose]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

It's a basic spy/thief outfit. The cat ears are an 'incidental' nod. They never call her Catwoman because they never intended her to literally be a cat-based character.

Basic spy/thief outfit? You mean - flowing hair, heels, dominatrix elements and red lipstick? Not even funny.

I'm not saying it's not beautiful, I'm saying it's out of place. I think, this is the thing that Nolan feared introducing her. He didn't know how to make her credible.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by OutOfBoose

Basic spy/thief outfit? You mean - flowing hair, heels, dominatrix elements and red lipstick? Not even funny.

I'm not saying it's not beautiful, I'm saying it's out of place. I think, this is the thing that Nolan feared introducing her. He didn't know how to make her credible.

I didn't say it was practical.

[BatLobsterRises]

Selina was definitely someone who used her sexuality to her advantage. The way she seduced the Senator, tried to get Batman to trust her ("Still don't trust me...how can we change that?"). Her wardrobe was a reflection of that.

Just because the film didn't give us her backstory doesn't mean it's not possible that one exists for her that makes her fit into that world. And she did fit into that world, to me. I believed that there could be a Catwoman prequel that explained it all, but I didn't need to see it.

[regwec]

The failure to call Catwoman Catwoman is one of those Nolanisms I find to be pointlessly disingenuous and fussy. Just like those goggles that look like ears but aren't quite. I know it is a matter of taste, but I feel that anyone who has such a pervasive distrust for the character and material should do something different instead.

The strength in Nolan's Joker is that it is something quite different to the comicbook version, and it works well because it isn't a half-arsed dilution of a better idea.

Again, let me say that I think TDKR is a decent film and Hathaway did her best; it just seems marred by timidity to me.

[ThePhantasm]

Originally Posted by regwec

it just seems marred by timidity to me.

That's a good way of putting it.

[BatLobsterRises]

I don't think there was anything watered down or diluted about Selina's characterization in the film though. Plot-wise there was just no need for anyone to actually call her Catwoman, when she has a known record as Selina Kyle. Same reason Gordon always refers to The Scarecrow as "Crane" or why Batman and Gordon always referred to Two-Face as "Dent".

[The Joker]

At least we heard the names Scarecrow and Two-Face in reference to Crane and Dent. Catwoman is the only one who's name is never uttered once. Not that it bothered me. Just pointing it out that she's the only comic book character to not get her name mentioned in Nolan's trilogy. But then there has been many comic book characters who never got their comic book names mentioned in movies.

Iron Man never called Obidiah Stane 'The Iron Monger'.

The Incredible Hulk never called Blonsky 'The Abomination'.

Spider-Man 3 never named Eddie Brock 'Venom'.

Iron Man 2 never calls Mickey Rourke's character 'Whiplash'.

Rhodey is never called War Machine.

The Avengers never even calls Agent Barton 'Hawkeye'.

[BatLobsterRises]

While it's true they didn't say the name "Catwoman", they at least referenced her as a "Cat burglar" and such. But as you've excellently pointed out, she's hardly the first character in a CBM to not get the full namedrop.

Sometimes it's just not necessary and hard to pull off without seeming extremely forced.

[ThePhantasm]

I seem to remember Barton being called Hawkeye once... though I might be wrong.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

While it's true they didn't say the name "Catwoman", they at least referenced her as a "Cat burglar" and such.

Actually it was 'The Cat', which was her criminal name in her original comic book appearance in Batman #1

[Anno_Domini]

Iron Monger(just monger), Abomination and War Machine are names actually mentioned in some way, though.

[RustyCage]

If your standard for quality is 'They need to actually CALL HER Catwoman', I don't really see an argument.

I don't care if they never called her Catwoman. She was clearly Catwoman.

They didn't even have to call Harvey 'Two-Face' in The Dark Knight. It speaks for itself.

It's funny how I felt Nolan had too many lines that were obvious - to the point of embarrassment, and should have left more to silent acting, but other people feel the extreme opposite.

I'm pro-subtlety, personally. I don't need gobs of cheese on my sub, covers up the shine of the core ingredients.

[The Guard]

They didn't even have to call Harvey 'Two-Face' in The Dark Knight. It speaks for itself.

And yet they did.

At the end of the day, its a small sign of respect for the source material.

There's not really a story need to call Bane "Bane"...but they did.

[Gotham's Knight]

Originally Posted by The Guard

There's not really a story need to call Bane "Bane"...but they did.

What else would you call him? Unless I'm missing something here, Bane doesn't have any other name.

[Happy Jack]

Originally Posted by Gotham's Knight

What else would you call him? Unless I'm missing something here, Bane doesn't have any other name.

I believe in the comics one iteration gives him the name Edmund Dorrence, after his father. But for the most part he's only referred to as Bane, which in the context of the movie resonated because its a moniker that builds a measure of awe and legend around him that he cannot separate himself from. Just like with the mask. Without it he's a feeble nobody.

It's not much different than the Joker, come to think of it.

[BatLobsterRises]

Bane is really such a badass name for a villain. Probably one of the coolest aspects of Bane IMO.

/off topic

[Gotham's Knight]

Originally Posted by Happy Jack

I believe in the comics one iteration gives him the name Edmund Dorrence, after his father. But for the most part he's only referred to as Bane, which in the context of the movie resonated because its a moniker that builds a measure of awe and legend around him that he cannot separate himself from. Just like with the mask. Without it he's a feeble nobody.

It's not much different than the Joker, come to think of it.

Do you know which comic that's from? I'm a fan of Bane stories but I don't believe I've read one that has his name in it unless I missed it so I'll have to seek that out.

And, why not call him that? Because it'd be like calling Adolf Hitler Adolf Schicklgruber. One's intimidating, the other's just not.

[AnneFan]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Bane is really such a badass name for a villain. Probably one of the coolest aspects of Bane IMO.

/off topic

Yes, it's a good one. It's like the Joker in the sense the name is just the name.

[regwec]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

If your standard for quality is 'They need to actually CALL HER Catwoman', I don't really see an argument.

*Sigh*.

Yes, that is of course our "standard for quality", whatever that it meant to mean.

I don't know why anyone bothers to make that kind of comment. It is so plainly a misrepresentation or misunderstanding of what is being said that it really shouldn't have made it from keyboard to screen.

Originally Posted by RustyCage

I'm pro-subtlety, personally. I don't need gobs of cheese on my sub, covers up the shine of the core ingredients.

You must have found it grating to hear The Joker being called 'The Joker', or Batman being called 'Batman', then.

Are you really willing to strain logic so much to suggest that calling things what they are is 'cheese'?

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by regwec

You must have found it grating to hear The Joker being called 'The Joker', or Batman being called 'Batman', then.

Are you really willing to strain logic so much to suggest that calling things what they are is 'cheese'?

No, I didn't mind at all.

What I do mind is doing it for the mere sake of doing it, or because someone thinks you 'have to or it's disrespectful'. THAT kind of thinking is cheese-oriented, and it's nonsense.

I'm open to an idea for an origin of her name that isn't corny though, if you have one in mind.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by The Guard

And yet they did.

At the end of the day, its a small sign of respect for the source material.

There's not really a story need to call Bane "Bane"...but they did.

And if they didn't? What then? Are they 'disrespecting' it? That's such an irrational conclusion to draw.

So what if they did name a couple of villains? They didn't have to, and the point would still be clear in many cases. I feel that while The Joker and Bane make the respective characters more ominous (largely because they don't have real identities underneath as Selina and Dent do), there are times when giving them a name does not have that effect, and is more of just a cute gimmick.

Catwoman is one of those cases. Two-Face at least was explained as a nickname based on his reputation. And even so, they don't go around calling him "TWO-FACE!! Hey, put down the gun, Two-Face!" for the rest of the movie (looking at you, Batman Forever). They still call him Harvey.

'I'm Batman' has always kind of bugged me too, to be fair. I like the idea of thugs and the mob referring to him as that once rumors spread and people have recognized his theme. He doesn't name himself, but the streets do. His reputation names him, and he just kind of accepts it.

Similarly, 'Scarecrow' was introduced in this way. Crane has a scary mask, and his victims moan about what it reminds them of while they quake in fear under the effect of his toxin. He doesn't name himself either.

When Crane says 'it's the Batman', it feels like he's referring to such a process, like he's talking about fearful whispers amongst the underworld. Unfortunately, the effect was already undermined at the docks with Falcone.

When you go 'I'm Batman', it eschews that cool aspect and drags the audience back into cartoon territory.

That, obviously, throws off the momentum of Begins for me - that sense of 'THIS is a superhero movie I can take seriously and get lost in without things getting hammy. They have re-invented Batman to be something dark and steeped in reality.'

It's only momentary, but yeah. The film's heart misses a beat.

You could take the 'her reputation names her' approach to Catwoman as well, but it's more likely that they'd just refer to her as a cat burglar than come up with a counterpart name to Batman.

Even so, I'd have taken that over 'I am Catwoman! Hear me roar!!'

[BatLobsterRises]

Originally Posted by RustyCage

Even so, I'd have taken that over 'I am Catwoman! Hear me roar!!'

Totally with you there. That line made me cringe even when I was 6.

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Totally with you there. That line made me cringe even when I was 6.

Yeah. Contrary to popular belief, kids are perfectly capable of recognizing these sorts of things. They have standards too (or some of them, anyway).

That's why I call it 'cartoony' rather than 'kiddy', cause I felt the same way as a kid.

In a way, just going off of those kinds of moments, you can almost understand why Schumacher thought his approach was sensible.

[BatLobsterRises]

Yup. I'm a big believer in respecting the intelligence of kids when it comes to movies. A lot of my favorite movies from childhood ended up being the ones that I can still enjoy as an adult (and Batman Returns is one of them, to be sure).

[RustyCage]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

Yup. I'm a big believer in respecting the intelligence of kids when it comes to movies. A lot of my favorite movies from childhood end up being ones that I can still enjoy as an adult (and Batman Returns is one of them, to be sure).

For sure. And despite that one line, Michelle is a big part of why.