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View Poll Results: Who made the better Catwoman?
Michelle Pfeiffer 70 39.11%
Anne Hathaway 109 60.89%
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Old 03-06-2013, 08:35 PM   #126
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

SInce the can of worms has been opened, and now I've had Catwomen on my mind all day...here's my list of faves:

1. Michelle

2. Anne


3. Eartha


4. Julie


5. Lee


and finally...

...nope thats it.

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Old 03-06-2013, 09:16 PM   #127
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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SInce the can of worms has been opened, and now I've had Catwomen on my mind all day...here's my list of faves:

1. Michelle

2. Anne


3. Eartha


4. Julie


5. Lee


and finally...

...nope thats it.
Don't agree with putting Eartha above Newmar. Or Hathaway above Newmar.

Here's how I would list:

1. Michelle
2. Newmar
3. Meriweather
4. Hathaway
5. Eartha/Halle - not that I am against Catwoman being a darker pigment of skin colour, it's just that I don't like their interpretations of Catwoman.

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Old 03-06-2013, 09:26 PM   #128
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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Speaking of which, I found this:




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Old 03-06-2013, 09:47 PM   #129
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Pfieffer's Catwoman had a complex sexuality which wasn't just sassiness, which was all that Hathaway's Catwoman was.
This.

I have no idea how someone can say Hathaway was more tantalizing.
I’m pretty sure Pfeiffer ruined “women mounting me” for life.

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The name alone does not do that in Catwoman's case.
I didn’t say that it did. I said the name is a nod to that aspect.
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You're implying that your preferred version of Catwoman is the only valid interpretation.
No I’m not. I’m implying that half the existing character was not portrayed onscreen.

I said nothing about it being the only valid interpretation of the character.

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I don't find these things necessary to get the core of the character across. She doesn't have to have be psychotic, have an affinity for cats, and she doesn't have to be inspired by Batman. Those are, frankly, superficialities; they're optional.
The problem is that those things ARE part of the core of the character. Without that aspect, she’s just a catburglar.

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Anyway - to say 'I don't prefer Nolan's approach' is one thing, but to say 'She wasn't Catwoman' is another.
I didn’t say it isn’t Catwoman.

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I mean, it should have been obvious this was gonna be a different take. The question is: Are you open to that or not?
Yes. I just recognize it’s incomplete nature as an adaption of a character.

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The character's behavior similarity does go deeper than 'she's a cat burglar'.
I didn’t say it didn’t. I said she’s only recognizeable as something called “Catwoman” because she’s a cat burglar in the film, and audiences' previous knowledge that this is who she's supposed to be.

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The idea is that it's far more subtle than going out of her way to make a kitty costume. Not that I dislike kitty costumes necessarily, but Nolan was going for incidental.
Sometimes subtle isn't always as good.

She’s completely randomly wearing an unsubtle “cliché 60’s mod thief outfit” in the middle of the film, so how is that really all that subtle?

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Because she's a slinky spy that uses feminine wiles to get her an edge in a pinch. I don't think it's too difficult to stretch your imagination there.
So she wears it because she needs to be the cliché of a slinky spy to use her feminine wiles?

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"____ is the bane of my existence" has been a popular phrase for a while. That's probably how I knew.
Again, I’d be willing to bet most people have never heard that phrase. People don’t read anymore.

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I still don't find it necessary for Catwoman. I also don't think it adds anything profound. In Burton's take, and in the Animated Series, it seems to just be some controlled and fun flamboyance. The books vary.
It’s sort of the opposite. There’s nothing “profound” about her as a character without those concepts. She’s a good character just as Selina Kyle, but her alter ego is a fairly generic femme fatale who has the same motivations as hundreds of other characters. Those “gimmicks” are half of what sets her apart from other characters in literature and film.

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You were saying that the name defines her. I don't think it does.
At no point did I say that the name defines her.

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Weren't you? Why are we arguing?
No. I don’t know.

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Old 03-06-2013, 10:35 PM   #130
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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Your participation here continues to impress me, man.

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Old 03-06-2013, 10:44 PM   #131
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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Originally Posted by Hellion View Post
SInce the can of worms has been opened, and now I've had Catwomen on my mind all day...here's my list of faves:
Spoiler!!! Click to Read!:

1. Michelle

2. Anne


3. Eartha


4. Julie


5. Lee


and finally...

...nope thats it.
Awwww here we go. Also cracked up at the last bit.

It's a shame that both of the darker skinned actresses didn't really pull off the character in that great of a way (same goes for Year One), cause my wife is half-black and she loves Catwoman. That would've been a cool visual link for her to grab on to.

She liked Anne a lot though, so I guess it doesn't matter.

My list.... uhhhh man, this is gonna be rough. Can I tie some of them? lol

1 Michelle/Anne - I think Michelle is an absolute artist through most of Returns, but I also loved the sensitivity versus toughness of Anne.. style wise, it depends on my mood, I love both.

2 Julie

3 Lee

4 Eartha

5 Halle

If I HAD to choose between Anne and Michelle at #1, I would have to weigh Michelle's corny moments against Anne's lack of development. Which is worse..?

This may shock Guard, but, I'm gonna say lack of development is way worse, even though Anne's Catwoman kicked ass and I am less often in the mood for Michelle's style.

#1, Michelle. But I'm wincing.



PS - Should we include voice actresses?

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Old 03-07-2013, 12:08 AM   #132
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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Game. Set. Match.
Halle Berry is sexy as ****, but man...this costume makes her look like ****.

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Only the first of two times that the word heist is misspelled, lol.

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Old 03-07-2013, 12:10 AM   #133
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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Halle Berry is sexy as ****, but man...this costume makes her look like ****.
It really is one of the worst costumes ever seen in a CBM. Right up there with Clooney's silver plated suit from B&R.

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Old 03-07-2013, 12:24 AM   #134
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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It really is one of the worst costumes ever seen in a CBM. Right up there with Clooney's silver plated suit from B&R.
It could've been worse.


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Old 03-07-2013, 12:27 AM   #135
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

^ That seems like a deal where it's more of who the actor is wearing the suit than the suit itself.

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Old 03-07-2013, 12:31 AM   #136
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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^ That seems like a deal where it's more of who the actor is wearing the suit than the suit itself.
It's both for me.

That's Nicholas Cage (no relation to RustyCage). Was the working design for Tim Burton's Superman project (which actually had some majorly badass Braniac concept art, I thought).

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Old 03-07-2013, 12:53 AM   #137
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Yah, I know it was Nic Cage...that's why I brought up if it's because it's just the actor wearing the suit that it's bad, lol.

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Old 03-07-2013, 01:35 AM   #138
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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Also, I'm pretty sure Black Widow calls Barton "Hawkeye" once in the Avengers.
When is that? I honestly do not remember.

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Old 03-07-2013, 01:41 AM   #139
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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Anne's acting was cringeworthy in that scene. As it was the whole movie. Her character was not believable in the slightest.

Michelle was over the top, but the emotional journey her character went through made it seem more real. She had a better motivation. And the whole love/hate thing with Batman I definitely think was done better.



Pfieffer's Catwoman had a complex sexuality which wasn't just sassiness, which was all that Hathaway's Catwoman was.



Anne Hathaway overplayed it and so wasn't sexy at all to me. That fake sassiness was obviously out of character for her and it felt awkward. Michelle had a more real sexuality, that didn't seem forced unlike with Hathaway.



What's the matter with ya? That's the most red-blooded, hot sexual scene in any comic book movie, ever.
I am not going to argue about performances, as we obviously disagree. However, your complaint about Anne not having the sexuality, but rather a sassiness, of Pffeifer is misplaced. Pffeifer, amazing in her part, had a role that was overtly about the role of sexuality in feminism and femininity in the 1990s. I.E. She's a working girl trying to overcome her domineering boss and must throw away childhood toys and go all Sandra Dee from Grease by donning skin tight leather and shout ridiculous lines like, "I am Catwoman. HEAR ME ROAR!"

That is great in Burton's surrealistic and fairy tale approach, however Anne's Catwoman is not about overt sexuality because she isn't struggling to find an identity. Pffeifer cannot find an identity between the feminine and supposed loneliness of professionalism in the late 20th century. Hathaway's Catwoman is in complete control of her identity, her sexual identity and does not view everything through political terms, sexual or otherwise. It is actually more empowering that she completely owns every situation that she is in through cunning, wits and, when necessary, sexuality. But it is never something that is a moral, ethical or psychological struggle for her. That in itself is actually stronger in many ways.

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Old 03-07-2013, 05:37 AM   #140
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

I really hope it's a Worlds Finest film we get with Catwoman and Nightwing/Robin as supporting roles.

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Old 03-07-2013, 10:17 AM   #141
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

I said i prefere Michelle but i forgot to said why (and it wasnt because of any of the arguments i read here). Her characterization in Returns fits really well with this sort of bestiality that exists in Burton movies. I think her character in Nolan's movies is a little bit of a stretch to accept , in the world he developed. I'm actually glad they didn't called her catwoman.

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Old 03-07-2013, 10:45 AM   #142
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

I never get the argument, even from Nolan, that she is hard to accept in his Batman world. She is a cat thief. Nothing really over-the-top about that. The fact she has the (slightest) of cat motifs can also be chalked up to her clearly being a fan of Batman growing up in a city where, as The Joker says about escalation, he has changed things.

I honestly think the more sane, confident thief version we got was always an obvious choice for the series.

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Old 03-07-2013, 10:47 AM   #143
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I never get the argument, even from Nolan, that she is hard to accept in his Batman world. She is a cat thief. Nothing really over-the-top about that. The fact she has the (slightest) of cat motifs can also be chalked up to her clearly being a fan of Batman growing up in a city where, as The Joker says about escalation, he has changed things.

I honestly think the more sane, confident thief version we got was always an obvious choice for the series.
She has a theatricality that i don't accept well. The problem isn't being a cat burglar.

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Old 03-07-2013, 11:47 AM   #144
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Halle Berry as Catwoman was a wasted opportunity. That woman is sex on legs, but the movie made the concept somehow...gross. How?

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Old 03-07-2013, 12:15 PM   #145
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She has a theatricality that i don't accept well. The problem isn't being a cat burglar.
As opposed to a man who dresses up like a bat or a clown? Or a Scarecrow? If you poke holes in one, they all have to be done. I mean, it is not like she is shooting freeze rays or running around with a family dressed in playing cards or something.

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Old 03-07-2013, 12:17 PM   #146
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Nothing wrong with freeze rays, I'll have you know.

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Old 03-07-2013, 12:29 PM   #147
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As opposed to a man who dresses up like a bat or a clown? Or a Scarecrow? If you poke holes in one, they all have to be done. I mean, it is not like she is shooting freeze rays or running around with a family dressed in playing cards or something.
Two Face in TDK is even more extreme than the examples you mentioned. Im not saying she sticks like a sore thumb. But i cant help but feel she's a little displaced , especially when she's in the suit. But i quite liked some of the stuff about her in the movie , more specifically her importance in the themes of the movie. It's just easier for me to accept Michelle role in Burton's world.

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Old 03-07-2013, 12:39 PM   #148
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

I think the reason Anne's Catwoman sticks out to some people is because of the reasons OutOfBoose mentioned before. Her theatrical comic booky elements are never given any validation for being there.

We know why Bruce dressed up as a Bat and used the gadgets he used. We know why Crane wore the Scarecrow mask. We know why Joker wore the clown make up. We know why Two Face used the two headed coin. We know why Bane wore the mask etc.

Why did Selina need that domino mask, or the goggles, or have her hair flowing freely wearing that skin tight outfit? The heels were the only part of the costume that made any sense.

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Old 03-07-2013, 12:48 PM   #149
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Correct. And, oddly, that makes the muting of her cat-like elements less realistic. It is entirely plausible that someone impressionable would emanate Batman, coming up with their own nocturnal persona. The motive for Hathaway's Catwoman is elusive. She seems to wear tight spandex and bend over motorcycles purely for our gratification. There is none of the collusion of sexuality, empowerment and motive that makes Catwoman great (Pfeiffer's being a fine example), possibly because Nolan makes the stylistic choice to subdue all outlandish elements.

Some things in real life are outlandish, and sometimes the stranger explanation is the more plausible.

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Old 03-07-2013, 03:15 PM   #150
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

I feel like they trusted the pop culture collective understanding of Catwoman in choosing not to tell a new origin story. I just thought it worked for her to be Catwoman with no major explanation. Kinda like how The Joker just was in TDK. Rather than explaining everything step by step with her it was more of a...."Okay, you know how this Gotham works by this point. Here's who Catwoman would be in this world."

I find it rather easy to imagine a backstory for her. That's one of the things I loved about TDKR that I kind of found a bit mechanical in Begins. The step by step explanation of everything (Don't get me wrong I loved seeing how Bruce got his toys and their functions...just didn't need to see an equivalent of that for Catwoman). TDKR allowed for you to use your imagination a bit. With the familiarity we had with the Nolanverse at that point, any one of us could have probably come up with a great way to "Nolanize" any of the villains on our own. I thought it was refreshing to just skip the tediousness of explaining where her wardrobe comes from and why she dresses that way. You get a general impression of the functionality of it, and that's enough. Her characterization is way more interesting than all the nuts and bolts of that. It also cemented my belief that almost any villain could work tonally in that context.

And the whole inspiration from Batman thing...I found that to be pretty clearly implied. She flips her "ears" up for the first time right as the newscast about Batman's return is on (hello symbolism), and then is shown to be rather excited by his return. That scene has no other purpose other than to show us she still has some reverence for him, unlike a lot of the city at that point.

Let me just make one thing clear. Would I have minded her Catwoman get more development and focus? Hell no. I would have watched a 4 hour version of the movie if it meant that. I'm just saying it wasn't hard for me to believe in her in that world. I thought she fit in just fine.

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