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#26 | |
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The 2nd film, even worse than what the critics said. I did walk out on my first attempt at seeing it, right after Bumblebee knocked aside one of the Twins. I considered walking out at several other junctures, including the opening ten minutes. Very bad dialog and scene structures. "Pull over?" "Any last words?" Really. The other problems of the film have been crtically analyzed with great detail by other viewers on these forums, so I won't go on and on. With regards to the third film, the spoilers were enough to keep me away, not to mention ROTF was a disappointment of such tremendous magnitude, it was beyond sufficent to keep me away. As cliched as it sounds, it's true, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."
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#27 |
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The movie are what they are, but I think the second film fundamentally flawed, even for a popcorn flick. It's the one movie where I felt like I felt stupid for the world.
I think the perfect popcorn flick is 'Fast 5'; it delievers in the fun, pacing and action. But it never stoops to the lowest common denominator like showing off robotic balls or stupid slapstick humor (from the useless twins). If you gonna have banter, make it funny. I've always felt that Transformers don't strive to do..more with the story. And while you can say it shouldn't, I mean, again, look at Fast 5. Or better yet, look at the Marvel Studios films. They never stoop low for anyone. Transformers is junk food but once in a while, it's okay to sneak in an apple. Hopefully that apple can be part 4.
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#28 | |
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I would like to see much more engaging stories as well for Transformers and more faithful designs (looking at the Dreamwave and IDW comics) as well as even some fan art, I thought the potential to have robots more similar to their original designs could work well. You mentioned the Marvel films, and I will say I thought the Iron Man films provided a good example on how to execute a look to the character very similar to the comics' designs, and yet having excellent aesthetics and design choices (such as the darkening of the red and gold) of Iron Man's Mark II armor. Also with regards to the Marvel films (Thor, Iron Man films, Incredible Hulk, etc.) were done well. I watched the Avengers five times in the theater.
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"We've been down in the series and we've had nonbelievers all the way. I have one thing to say to those nonbelievers, never underestimate the heart of a champion." - Rudy Tomjonavich, 1995. |
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#29 | |
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#30 | |
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The film version of Starscream is an example of a character who looked worse than his cartoon/comic/toy version. Totally generic looking.
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#31 | |
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"We've been down in the series and we've had nonbelievers all the way. I have one thing to say to those nonbelievers, never underestimate the heart of a champion." - Rudy Tomjonavich, 1995. |
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#33 | |
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There's a few I didn't mind the changes to, always thought film Sideswipe had a pretty sick look. Last edited by def28; 03-12-2013 at 01:42 AM. |
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#34 | |
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-Spielberg -Hasbro(probably have the most say) -ILM creative leads Not saying bay doesn't have a say let's be real, this is a multi studio film. That being said, if you people had no concept of what the source material every looked like, I have a feeling things would be different. People have to get it through their heads that the aesthetic they are so in love was was born out of a designed for 2D animation pitch package. Designing for 80's 2D animation and designing for 200million dollar CGI shouldn't be the same thing. Just look at LordOfTheRings(probably a bad example). Secondly, unlike "ironman," selling the concept of mech aliens that open and fold up into vehicles at the "jurassic park wow" cgi levels, means that the designs may have to be more on the function over form style. Ironman is a man encased in metal, especially that first suit. Transformers are something else. And you better believe kids believe what they are seeing 100%. What's interesting is that when you had an ironman armor that sorta had to transform you got a much more radical design. see suit case amor. Still it wasn't an alien and it was still just an encasement. Thirdly, The producers of this franchise have to deal with a particular issue almost no other film of this success ever has. A live action film with non human leads. It's never, and will never happen. Ignoring the press tour element, executives sell movies on human leads and romance. Why bay should simply make fans happy by taking all the executive money and making a movie like the video games or comics is silly thinking. This isn't Avengers or GI Joe. Sadly bay and co. have the same dilemma with TMNT. Lastly, I love how we all love to put our noses up and hate on this so called "lowest common denominator" and how it's a plague upon cinema, yet you will never ever hear a word about the shame in the Hangover franchise(racism, nudity, low ball humor). That recent jack and the bean stock movie from the respectable Bryan Singer, has farting and other such jokes... Then we'll have people defend the fast series as good but TF 1-3 as bad. This is simply hypocrisy. If there was conviction I would at least give their opinion more weight. TF has never pretended to be anything more than an adaptation of an 80's toy commercial...for kids, are kids happy? This summer we'll see a more geek friendly Pacific Rim come out. It's got money, it's got ILM, and it's got a great date. Let's see what happens. When it fails to get TF numbers, the matter of what Bay and co are doing should be resolved. Again, those robots don't have to transform so we'll finally get to see solid designs......droooll. Sometimes aliens have dog legs, deal with it.
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I doubt it.
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#36 |
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Marvin, we may not agree on everything......but I respect your opinion. But Transformers is for kids and families, and we've gotten to the point in pop culture where..we can do better. I'm not asking for Shakespeare..but robot balls and the Twins are awful. Agian, I don't hate part 1 and 3, but part 2 is just meandering, loud and boring.
And let's not compare this to The Hangover. I think there's a valid discussion there, but that's a Rated R franchise built on the college crowd. It's not for selling toys for kids. That being said, did I mention that Bay's Transformers look nasty and gaudy? Hehe..
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"Benicio Del Toro is up-and-coming...and this (movie) could be his breakthrough role." -- Anonymous, 2016 Last edited by Octoberist; 03-12-2013 at 10:43 PM. |
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#37 | |
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"I was offended by this movie" "I thought the humor was trite" "I thought the character was racist" Are these people speaking for the many children(showing up to a pg13 film). Or are they just speaking for themselves? The parents that show up with their kids for the 3rd film and are surprised, fine. But forum members that simply act offended upon viewing this film but not others(such as hangover) are pretty two faced imo. I remember how bad people wanted to complain about Ken Jeong being another racial stereotype that was offensive to them in TF3. They wanted to soooo bad. That same summer dude reprized his crazy asian role in hangover and not a word was spoken of the matter. All that being said, I'm there with most of you guys. The series could be better, but just because it can doesn't mean it's not making hundreds of thousands of people really happy. It's for that very same reason that I don't bash nolans batman as much as I want to(I do rant often). Cause it's just my opinion. 3 straight hits means something. And not coming off of a star wars legacy. The last one making more money than any batman effort.
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#38 |
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I love the first three. I have no doubt in my mind this film will be as good as the last three or even better. Bay is the man!!!!!!!
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#39 | ||
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![]() These films making money doesn't negate the massive flaws in terms of plot and story telling these movies suffer from. Quote:
Name one compelling character: Sam is spoiled, entitled, neurotic brat, Prime often comes off as a A-hole, Megan Fox was just eye candy and Megatron is one of the least effective villains ever and those are most developed characters in the series, the supporting characters are worse, even more bland or annoying. Last edited by The Overlord; 03-16-2013 at 09:36 PM. |
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#40 | |||
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Yup, financial success is definitely has nothing to do with crowd pleasing movies, the only films that make money are the lowest common denomination fare. If anything consistent success in a franchise is a sign of a bad film. ![]() Quote:
Define "interesting characters," I mean not every character is going to be the lead from old boy, but what is "interesting" to you may not be the same to other people. Quote:
As for your description of Sam. That sounds more like Henry the 8th or even Tony Stark and Thor pre typical marvel character growth arc. The question is, what's wrong with a movie about an "interesting" character...not every movie is about a saint with their **** together, just look at Raging Bull.
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Sure there are some popular films that are good, but I reject the notion that just because something is popular that it is good. Quote:
In these movies we have plot points that come out of nowhere, bad scene transitions, characters with motives that make no sense and plot points that make no sense what so ever (like the fact in the second film they were able to cover up the existence of alien robots, when they had a huge fight in the middle of an American city, there would have been footage of them on the web and in the news media withing minutes, no way could the government have covered that up.) Michael Bay is not David Lynch, he isn't trying to make some statement with this non sense, its just bad directing. Quote:
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Also in the third Movie, Prime let the Decepticons kill thousands of people in Chicago, in order to teach the government a lesson. How is that noble? That is psychopathic. It would be like if Spider-Man decided because the daily Bugle is making him unpopular, he will do nothing and let Carnage kill a thousand people, in order to teach the people of NYC a lesson. That is not noble. Quote:
Comparing Transformers to raging Bull is also ridiculous, Raging Bull was a character study of a man who could have been a contender but allowed his jealous, rage and lack of impulse control destroy his athletic career, there is no character study with Sam, he is not a tragic figure or a heroic one, he is just an annoying snot nosed brat and the script expects me sympathize with him, when it gives me no reason to. |
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Popularity and Success are not the same thing, not when it comes to expensive movie franchises. Here's my point on this matter. Why has transformers been a consistent 3 and probably four time movie success at the box office, with consistently increasing returns? Some would say because it's a big fat effects reels from ILM. Well ILM not only releases about 3 movies a year that aren't always as successful as TF but they've also released their fair share of similar if not better looking, bombs. Battleship being a primary example. What is it about TF that was lacking in BS? Of course, BS wasn't a recognized brand and property present in America since the 80's. Well then why don't we find something that was. GIJOE, why didn't that do transformers business(with a much bigger budget mind you)? Probably, because TF was “better” than the aforementioned. Secondly, when Xmen first class did moderately poorly at the box office(established property et all) in spite of it being great, many were quick to point out that it simply was at the mercy of the poor films that came before. Those poor films may have made money (due to what came before them) but they put XFC in the hole, public perception wise. TF has consistently not only been successful but that success has grown. You can cover your ears to this and blame a fickle audience all you want but when you see this effect on Xmen, something should click. Green Lantern Bombs, Air Bender Bombs, Battlehship, joe..etc. Why is TF any different. This is the success I was referring to and this is the "quality" I was referring to. The same crowd that made Ironman a hit and not green lantern. Criticize them all you want, but there is much to be extrapolated from them. Quote:
ON THE Matter of plot holes: How do you know the gov't can't cover up what they really have to. Web algorithms not only exit but can exist in the context of a kids show adaptation that wipe the web clean of just about anything. Much of our media does and in the context of a kids show adaptation could get paid off by the gov't to say what ever need be said(see fox news and msnbc). Everyone in that city could have been brought in and either paid off or even mentally suggested to think it was a terrorist attack by advanced drone systems… Cell phone camera's existed during Bush, not the way they exist today, but even now I could pull up a dozen of these uh oh, better run for the hills right? The fact of the matter is that it's possible and not demonstrably impossible, which is where genre film often exists. Least we get in to radio active spider bites not killing people but making them gods..etc. Every hole you brought up is on a script level btw. That means Spielberg and many of his partners all thought it was ok and wrote off on it in the context that it was an adaptation of an 80’s Saturday morning toy commercial fans hoped was even more true to it's material than that silly film already was. Quote:
Lastly, if you don't see the character arc in this Spielberg product plot, you simply aren't looking. I recall a story about a self absorbed materialistic white suburbanite always trying to get ahead essentially sacrificing himself towards the end of the film. And that's just at first glance. How he approaches women and talks to girls has it's little growth, how he deals with authority... Sure it resets in every film to a degree, but then again IronMan has has three separate character restarts in the eyes of many a critic. What you are confusing here is development and personality. You use the word "piss ant" I assume you are talking about his annoying characterization. That would be like me calling Tony Stark a snob and a smart ass, that won't ever change and it's fine. Neither will Nick Fury being Sam Jackson esque. Quote:
Secondly, Prime could have been simply been performing an act of mercy at that point, dude was in bad shape. Thirdly, if human life is Prime's priority, then killing Decepticons where ever they may be whilst you are on alien lands and greatly out numbered may be considered, "in the heat of battle". It’s a war of attrition. As if "in the heat of battle" is any excuse to take a life...but let's not turn this into a moral discussion ![]() I'll say this(and you may like it). In the first film Optimus has qualms about killing Megatron, in the second movie he kills his enemy with much more reckless disregard...do I sense a character development as we progress through this trilogy? Has the war changed the once quick to forgiveness warrior.. who's to say, the script is for kids anyways. Conan is a "noble warrior king" to many a fan, and he will hack off any a villain's head armed or disarmed. Quote:
Go watch some good star trek episodes if you need a lesson on how morals and interfering with sentient life on the brink of destruction works in genre story telling at it’s best. It's not simply "to prove a psychopathic point." It's usually the sign of, get this, noble leadership. SPIDERMAN is of earth, that's different, but if we must go there. Being a mask wearing vigilante is against not only the law but it crosses a moral fence that puts J.Jonah Jameson squarely in the right. Quote:
Never said TF was a character study either, I said it was an adaptation of an 80's saturday morning toy commercial.People like you need to stop acting like it's failing at being a "character study" or rather something it’s not. Snatch(73% on RT) is an over the top silly movie with lack of "coherence" odd "transitions" lack of arcs..etc, and is an over stylized excuse for a crime film, compared to the Godfather anyways, but godfather never claimed to be a comedy-crime film now did it. People need to stop acting like fun films are failing at being something they aren't, often times they succeeding at being just that. There's room in cinema for all sorts of things. This is art, not science magazine, there are different types of “great movies” especially when aimed at kids.
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http://www.hitfix.com/articles/10-of...ts-of-all-time Are all those movies good because they did well at the box office? I hate that notion that just because something is successful, that instantly makes it good, instead of debating the pros and cons of the work itself. People like junk food, binge drinking and cigarettes, just because people like these things doesn't make them any less bad for you. Quote:
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And suspension of disbelief doesn't a work should not have any sort of internal rules or logic. Spider-Man getting powers from a spider that is covered by suspension of disbelief, but if what no where, he started shooting lasers out of his hands and there is no explanation for it, that wouldn't be covered, you are introducing new elements out of nowhere. There are way too many things that come out of nowhere, have no build up, no set up or just blatantly contradict other things in the franchise. In the first movie the Allspark kills Megatron, in the second it brings him back to life, Jetfire teleporting everyone to Egypt comes out of nowhere and since we never saw any Transformer teleport anyone anywhere before, it looks like something the writers pulled out of their butts. Quote:
Two, there are rules to story telling (example: show don't tell) and generally you shouldn't throw away these rules unless you really know what you are doing and are making a good story point, Bay did not do that. Quote:
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So he becomes more of an A-hole as the movies progress? Yeah, that's what people want to see from Prime. ![]() Quote:
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There are kids movies that are better written then this dreck, why should I be soft on these films? Almost any Pixar movie is way better written then the TF movies, so saying that because its a kids movie, so the no one has put any real effort forward, I would have to disagree with that. Last edited by The Overlord; 03-18-2013 at 09:47 PM. |
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#44 |
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This is a billion dollar franchise. The movies were bad they would never made this much money. Every about these movies screams blockbusters. Plus I have heard so epic rumors from my buddy dean about the plans for the 4th one. It will be the highest grossing of the transformer films and it will be consider the best.
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#45 | |
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Especially when they aren't coming off of such things as the most loved franchises in the history of film or are the sequels to critically and financially successful installments. Or are adapted from books that are worldwide pop culture zeitgeist machines. If a film is coming off of nothing but it's own merit or better yet a hated series of films, it's most likely not anywhere near that top 20 list unless it's doing something right. I like your food analogy. Here's another. There is a well cooked meal and then there's ice cream. That's all well and good. Now there is good ice cream and there's bad ice cream. Good ice cream has it's place. Next you will be saying there's no place for comedy in the film industry because it offers no "substance." I mean people like it but you know, that doesn't make it any less "bad for you". Quote:
ie, robots, not alien monsters, so who's to say it wasn't a military experiment or attack. Are there enough locals to doubt that? A localized emp could stop any footage being recorded or immediately sent out...I digress, because it wasn't shown I suppose that makes it a hole. I honestly wonder how they even cleaned up the city, seeing as how that wasn't shown either. Quote:
![]() Do you know the physics, quantum or otherwise of how the all spark works, moreover how it reacts with cybertronian physiology, let alone what state the robot's body has to in(dead or alive) when it is put in contact with the artifact ....you don't. So why act like you just saw an apple bounce off the ground and reach orbit. Jetfire used a mobile ground bride, I thought that was clear. Quote:
btw, I'm having a hard time recalling Captain America's oh so important character arc. I suppose one could say that after the steroids, he started to believe in himself more. Quote:
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Also, not every time a soldier kills other soldiers, is it an act of self defense in the strictest form. Especially when a bomb is used from a plane. Or better yet, a drone. Yet those aren't war crimes. But putting a dying building sized killer out do do more killing out of it's misery is the devils work. My point was that even our rules are fickle, whose to say what the rules are for these millennia old war time aliens. Quote:
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I also said Prime is a Noble warrior and leader. Apple and Oranges are both fruits. ![]() Quote:
Superman could end world hunger and war and all sorts of things in a day yet any fool can argue why he has no right too. Mark Millar nailed it in RedSun. If Prime doesn't listen to the worlds leaders who represent the people then he truly would be the Ahole you make him out to be. I'd expect Superman to leave if faced with the same public outcry too. Quote:
Fresh Prince and Cosby both dealt with young adult sex, and those programs were intended for the entire family. I say the films for kids because it's adapted from an 80's Saturday morning toy commercial only this time it's PG13. That means it can appeal to older audiences in it's humor and action. That doesn't mean the material isn't still based on an 80's Saturday morning toy commercial. I’d expect a PG 13 rated Barney episode to not have G humor if made into a 100plus million dollar film franchise. Maybe they just shouldn’t bother though. Quote:
Here's the thing. The simpsons is a great great animated sitcom. Does it compare to the writing in a pixar film? I would argue no. It's great at what it's trying to do. I hate south park with a passion but I'm not on here saying , well it's no Grave of the Fireflies...No, it's great at what it's trying to do. TF isn't failing at being Toystory 4, it's succeeding at being TF, lots of people don’t like it, but lots of people do. No one liked The Happening for sucking. Something about Mary is a great little comedy, it's no Gosford Park, so it's a failure? No, it's a great little comedy. I'm personally tired of people missing this point. Bad boys is a great Buddy Cop movie in the Action/Comedy Genre. It's not a failed Serpico John Tururro, John Malkovich, Frances McDormand all great actors, but all putting on their comedy faces for this as they have in times before. Yet people act like the "Acting" is bad in this one instance. Intent goes along way. Quote:
For example (external link due to some language) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFqynqZIcoQ It's a long 5 parts, but then again, there is alot of crap to cover. You might like it though, it asks the very same question you did above. Just because something is successful doesn't mean it's good. However, Batman isn't based on an 80's Saturday morning toy… it's a film that sent out "for your consideration ads. I ponder why be hard on an admitted romp yet no as hard on a critical study....as many’s like you do.
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