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Old 03-06-2013, 08:04 PM   #151
jrmtz543
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Just some quick support for Waid - I think Birthright is fantastic. He retells the origin in a new way, using Clark's world travels to offer something different than the usual Smallville stuff we've seen countless times. I also like Luthor as an astrobiologist and his connection to young Clark.

When reading Birthright, I figured Waid was hoping to lay the foundation for a movie. The book is very cinematic (especially an image like Supes protecting a kid with the giant S shield.) The appearance of the spider-like creature also seemed to be a wave to Jon Peters.

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:09 PM   #152
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

The reason why people think Superman is boring is because John Byrne took all the interesting stuff away from him.

Many modern-day fans sneer at the Silver Age craziness but that is because they conform to the adolescent worldview that everything needs to be dark, edgy and realistic in their stories about men in long underwear flying through the air and shooting lasers out of their eyes.

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Old 03-07-2013, 04:52 PM   #153
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

I dunno, denying Aquaman water in a desert is pretty dark.

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Old 03-08-2013, 07:04 AM   #154
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Has anyone ever noticed how Byrne's Luthor just sucks?

That Byrne's stories were still very, very Silver Age crazy but in a bad way?

That most of them were badly plotted?

Did you know that Byrne's Lois believes that the Kents raised Clark Kent and Superman as brothers?

Did you know that Big Barda and Superman made a porn movie because some Fourth World refugee thought that is the best thing to do when you have two powerful heroes mind-controlled?

Did you know that the whole Byrne's run is very bad and very painful to read, especially these days?

Amazing that people defend that kind of ****. Must be childhood nostalgia or that they confuse the things that came after Byrne with the stuff Byrne created.

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Old 03-08-2013, 03:32 PM   #155
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

That brothers thing was a piss poor idea I agree but I love Byrne's Lex. He's just so sinister, he really doesn't care who he hurts, he wants what he wants and he gets it.

The porn thing with Barda was a major WTF?! But I think it was a bad attempt at making it more adult.

I will agree I don't enjoy Byrne's run quite as much these days and Birthright just did it better than the Man of Steel origin story.

But each to their own, I can't read really old co,it's these days from the 50s/60s cause they really talk down to the audience.

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Old 03-08-2013, 05:40 PM   #156
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Quote:
Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore View Post
Has anyone ever noticed how Byrne's Luthor just sucks?

That Byrne's stories were still very, very Silver Age crazy but in a bad way?

That most of them were badly plotted?

Did you know that Byrne's Lois believes that the Kents raised Clark Kent and Superman as brothers?

Did you know that Big Barda and Superman made a porn movie because some Fourth World refugee thought that is the best thing to do when you have two powerful heroes mind-controlled?

Did you know that the whole Byrne's run is very bad and very painful to read, especially these days?

Amazing that people defend that kind of ****. Must be childhood nostalgia or that they confuse the things that came after Byrne with the stuff Byrne created.
Did you ever notice that those are largely just your opinions of John Byrne's material, and that opinions differ? Surprise, there are people who like things that you don't.

Also, Big Barda and Superman resisted against Sleez's mind-control and didn't actually do anything other than a kiss, which is not pornographic at all, and was a display of Superman's inner strength and strong moral fibre.


And I don't have a problem with Ma and Pa Kent telling Lois that they raised both Clark and Superman, which in fact they did.

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Old 03-08-2013, 06:13 PM   #157
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The reason why people think Superman is boring is because John Byrne took all the interesting stuff away from him.
The reason why many people think Superman is boring is because they feel Superman's way too super powerful, which makes him bland, dull, vanilla to them. Which is why John Byrne lowered Superman's powers in the comics, and boosted the comics sales in the '80s, but everything he did on his Superman revamp was reversed many, many, many years age.

If the Superman III movie had been a huge success, and if Superman comic books were the top sellers for DC in the early to mid '80s and were not considered boring by anybody, then DC's President/Publisher Jenette Kahn and Vice President/Executive Editor Dick Giordano wouldn't have even asked John Byrne to revamp Superman in the first place. But in reality DC's top seller in the early to mid '80s was The New Teen Titans by Marv Wolfman and George Perez (and the Crisis on Infinite Earths maxi-series by Marv Wolfman and George Perez in 1985).

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took all the interesting stuff away from him.
All of the interesting stuff? Such as? This all of the interesting stuff of Superman to you?










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Old 03-08-2013, 06:31 PM   #158
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Did you ever notice that those are largely just your opinions of John Byrne's material, and that opinions differ? Surprise, there are people who like things that you don't.
I can tell you flaws of his stories, lots of them, that virtually everyone who's slightly objective will understand.

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Also, Big Barda and Superman resisted against Sleez's mind-control and didn't actually do anything other than a kiss, which is not pornographic at all, and was a display of Superman's inner strength and strong moral fibre.
Yeah yeah, Sleez also says that under hypnosis you cannot do anything you do not truly want. So apparently Big Barda had no problems ****ing people on camera even before the new actor, Superman, was presented.

It's just disgusting.

Big Barda is also based on Jack Kirby's wife.

Disgusting.


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And I don't have a problem with Ma and Pa Kent telling Lois that they raised both Clark and Superman, which in fact they did.
It's pretty retarded, especially when you want to do "modern" and less "silly". But Byrne's stories are full of stuff like that. In many ways Byrne's stories were in no way more "realistic" than the pre-crisis days.

Fact is, the post-crisis relaunch was just a failure in the short (bad stories) and the long run (damaging Superman forever). Thank god that guys like Ordway and Stern came on later and produced some good stories on this raunchy foundation. Even Wolfman did better pre-crisis.


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Old 03-08-2013, 06:59 PM   #159
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Originally Posted by theMan-Bat View Post

All of the interesting stuff? Such as? This all of the interesting stuff of Superman to you?
1. most of the stuff wasn't really important anymore since the Bronze Age started
2. some stories have bad writing? Some puns here and there? LOL, Byrne's run is about 50% average, 20% good and 30% total ****.
3. Luthor didn't hate Superman because he made him bald. In fact, if they had fully integrated Maggin's Luthor into the comics he would have been the best Luthor ever. Better than Byrne's non-sense Luthor who is just a pathetic dumb being whose actions make no ****ing sense.
4. Clark Kent being a mild-mannered disguise is how Superman is meant to be. I know you hate this but it's just how it is and you cannot change it.
5. Nothing wrong with a lighter tone. Better than Superman making porn. You could have also written the pre-crisis Superman darker without sacrificing all of it.
6. What about Byrne actually using the "silly" stuff? Bizarro, Titano, the "Pocket Universe", Joker building nuclear-powered(!!!!!!!) Superman decoys...
7. Byrne's stories weren't overly realistic. He also couldn't keep a consistent power level. Sometimes Superman was pretty weak - next time he seemed as strong as in the pre-crisis days.
8. Superman executing depowered and helpless people is also not a very good move, no matter what they have done. (Of course, as she was dying Faora had to offer sex to Superman in exchange for her life. That's the sophistication of the post-crisis days, I guess)
[...]


Fact it, Byrne fans, you are totally blinded by childhood nostalgia. Maggin destroys him at every level possible (except for drawing, I guess).

Just because many people have problems with the pre-crisis Superman doesn't make the post-crisis Superman better. In fact, the final years of pre-crisis Superman weren't particualarly good but so were the first years of post-crisis. In many ways the reboot was just a waste. Get rid of the old stuff but replaced with stuff worse.


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Old 03-08-2013, 07:37 PM   #160
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore View Post
I can tell you flaws of his stories, lots of them, that virtually everyone who's slightly objective will understand.
Go ahead. Try to point out flaws in every one of his stories issue by issue, and try not to exaggerate and confuse opinion with facts.

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Yeah yeah, Sleez also says that under hypnosis you cannot do anything you do not truly want. So apparently Big Barda had no problems ****ing people on camera even before the new actor, Superman, was presented.

It's just disgusting.
Where does it say in the comic that Big Barda actually had sex with anyone? It doesn't.

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Big Barda is also based on Jack Kirby's wife.
I doubt Jack Kirby had a problem with Superman giving Big Barda a hug and a kiss.

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It's pretty retarded, especially when you want to do "modern" and less "silly". But Byrne's stories are full of stuff like that. In many ways Byrne's stories were in no way more "realistic" than the pre-crisis days.
Byrne obviously wasn't trying to make everything realistic and remove all things silly and comedic from Superman. Byrne actually had Golden Age/Silver Age style craziness in his run, particularly in the Superman vs. Mister Mxyzptlk issues. He included character driven humor. In the classic stories, Mister Mxyztplk always inflicted some weird transformation upon Superman or his world. Jerry Siegel created Mister Mxyztplk as a ridiculing comedic pest that tries to make a mockery of Superman and Metropolis until Superman outsmarts him.








Quote:
Fact is, the post-crisis relaunch was just a failure in the short (bad stories) and the long run (damaging Superman forever).
I completely disagree, and besides your opinion of his Superman stories, how exactly is Byrne's 1986-1988 run damaging Superman forever when everything he did was reverted many years age?

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Old 03-08-2013, 10:23 PM   #161
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Originally Posted by TruerToTheCore View Post
1. most of the stuff wasn't really important anymore since the Bronze Age started
So what are you complaining for?

Quote:
2. some stories have bad writing? Some puns here and there? LOL, Byrne's run is about 50% average, 20% good and 30% total ****.
Again, that's purely your opinions, not facts.

Quote:
3. Luthor didn't hate Superman because he made him bald. In fact, if they had fully integrated Maggin's Luthor into the comics he would have been the best Luthor ever.
Well, the comics didn't integrate Elliot S Maggin's Lex Luthor from the novels Last Son of Krypton (1978) and Miracle Monday (1981). The Silver Age/Bronze Age comics Earth-One version of Lex Luthor showed his anger at Superboy/Superman for making him bald and destroying his experiment.

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Better than Byrne's non-sense Luthor who is just a pathetic dumb being whose actions make no ****ing sense.
It's pretty obvious that Byrne's Luthor hates Superman because his powers are viewed as a threat to egotistical Luthor, and Superman actually arrested Luthor, humiliating him. Superman is one person in Metropolis that Luthor can't control.




The original Golden Age Luthor by Jerry Siegel was a corrupt supergenuis red headed greedy mastermind that Superman met as an adult and hated Superman because he's powers were a threat. John Byrne's The Man of Steel was a return to that concept. This Luthor was not so easily defeated like the Silver Age/Bronze Age Lex. Luthor as the richest man in Metropolis made Superman look like he wasn't perfect or living in a perfect world. I'm glad Superman couldn't legally keep him behind bars. It created tension, created a struggle to have Luthor actually hold his own against one of the most powerful men in the universe, despite having no actual Superhuman powers of his own physically. His ability to exist above the law made things very difficult for Superman, and it brought some reality to Superman, some relevance, showing that the system is flawed and doesn't always work. Superman originally was a champion of the common man versus corruption of the law at the highest level. And it also reminded me of Jack Kirby's sinister wealthy Morgan Edge, the president of the Galaxy Broadcasting System, whom was Superman's new boss whom Superman couldn't arrest and whom was a servant of Darkseid connected to the Apokolips-sponsored crime organization Intergang in Superman's Pal Jimmy Olsen by Jack Kirby.

Quote:
4. Clark Kent being a mild-mannered disguise is how Superman is meant to be. I know you hate this but it's just how it is and you cannot change it.
Friedrich Thorben: "But you changed the classic formula of Superman being the real person and Clark Kent being a disguise. That's a pretty big change."

John Byrne: "Only if you assume his life began the day he put on the costume."
http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/f...725&PN=1&TPN=3

Clark Kent is the "real" identity in the sense that he had been Clark Kent since he was a baby living in Smallville. When he decided to take a public crime fighting role, Clark, with the help of Ma Kent, invented the identity of the costumed superhero, Superman, with an "S" on his chest, etc.

And Clark also invented a new Clark Kent secret identity, the glasses wearing, posture altering persona as a disguise to hide the fact that he is also Superman.


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5. Nothing wrong with a lighter tone. Better than Superman making porn. You could have also written the pre-crisis Superman darker without sacrificing all of it.
Byrne's Superman often had a light tone. As I've pointed out, Superman really didn't engage in pornographic acts. Byrne's Superman wasn't very dark. Like Jery Siegel intended, Byrne's Superman showed a sense of humor, toying with criminals humorously.


Quote:
6. What about Byrne actually using the "silly" stuff? Bizarro, Titano, the "Pocket Universe", Joker building nuclear-powered(!!!!!!!) Superman decoys...
Not to mention Mister Mxyzptlk, the Toyman, the Prankster, Jimmy Olsen's Signal Watch.

Quote:
7. Byrne's stories weren't overly realistic.
I'm aware of that, especially his stories with Mister Mxyzptlk.

Quote:
He also couldn't keep a consistent power level. Sometimes Superman was pretty weak - next time he seemed as strong as in the pre-crisis days.
Byrne set consistent limits to Superman's powers, closer to the Golden Age. He was still super strong but he couldn't move planets around, had super speed but he couldn't time travel, he couldn't survive without air forever, etc.

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8. Superman executing depowered and helpless people is also not a very good move, no matter what they have done.
They had killed everyone on their Earth and they were threatening to find his universe and repeat their atrocity. Superman was the lone representative of that now-dead world. So he acted as their executioner. He executed them as punishment, and prevention from them finding his universe and repeating their atrocity on his Earth.



Superman creator Jerry Siegel had the Golden Age Superman kill villains as well in some cases while Siegel still had creative control of Superman. That was only changed because an Editorial Advisory Board was created by DC editorial director Whitney Ellsworth in Octobor, 1941. DC's Editorial Board was replaced with the creation of the Comics Code Authority in 1954.

This is from the transcript of the 1954 Senate hearings showing the editorial policy restrictions that every DC writer and artist had to follow from 1941 to 1954:

EDITORIAL POLICY FOR SUPERMAN D─C PUBLICATIONS

1. Sex. ─ The inclusion of females in stories is specifically discouraged. Women, when used in plot structure, should be secondary in importance, and should be drawn realistically, without exaggeration of feminine physical qualities.
2. Language. ─ Expessions having reference to the Deity are forbidden. Heroes and other "good” persons must use basically good English, through some slang and other colloquialism may be judiciously employed. Poor grammar is used only by crooks and villains ─ and not always by them.
3. Bloodshed. ─ Characters ─ even villains ─ should never be shown bleeding. No character should be shown being stabbed or shot or otherwise assaulted so that the sanguinary result is visible. Acts of mayhem are specifically forbidden. The picturization of dead bodies is forbidden.
4. Torture. ─ The use of chains, whips, or other such devices is forbidden. Anything having a sexual or sadistic implication is forbidden.
5. Kidnaping. ─ The kidnaping of children is specifically forbidden. The kidnaping of women is discouraged, and must never have any sexual implication.
6. Killing. ─ Heroes should never kill a villain, regardless of the depth of the villainy. The villain, If he is to die, should do so as the result of his own evil machinations. A specific exception may be made in the case of duly constituted officers of the law. The use of lethal weapons by women ─ even villainous women ─ is discouraged.
7.Crime. ─ Crime should be depicted in all cases as sordid and unpleasant. Crime and criminals must never be glamorized. All stories must be written and depicted from the angle of the law ─ never the reverse. Justice must triumph in every case.
In general, the policy of Superman D─C Publications is to provide interesting, dramatic, and reasonably exciting entertainment without having recourse to such artificial devices as the use of exaggerated physical manifestations of sex, sexual situations, or situations in which violence is emphasized sadistically. Good people should be good, and bad people bad, without middle ground shading. Good people need not be "stuffy" to be good, but bad people should not be excused. Heroes should act within the law, and for the law.

http://www.thecomicbooks.com/dybwad.html

Quote:
(Of course, as she was dying Faora had to offer sex to Superman in exchange for her life. That's the sophistication of the post-crisis days, I guess)
[...]
While John Byrne didn't write Superman just for kids, John Byrne had an all-ages approach to writing Superman, so Faora's desperate offer was tamer than you are characterizing it. She didn't say "I offer you sex" or "I will give you sexual pleasures." She said "I will show you pleasures."



Quote:
Fact it, Byrne fans, you are totally blinded by childhood nostalgia.
Wrong again, I was not a child when Byrne revamped Superman. I was 19 years old in 1986, I was 20 years old in 1987 and 21 years old in 1988. The Bronze Age 1970s Superman was from my childhood (the Super Friends cartoons, the Mego dolls, Superman comics by Marty Pasko/Cary Bates/Curt Swan, Superman: The Movie), I enjoyed all that as a little boy, but some of it (Super Friends, etc.) makes me cringe as an adult. I don't just prefer the Superman material from my childhood. I don't view Superman and Batman as childhood nostalgia items.

Quote:
Just because many people have problems with the pre-crisis Superman doesn't make the post-crisis Superman better. In fact, the final years of pre-crisis Superman weren't particualarly good but so were the first years of post-crisis. In many ways the reboot was just a waste. Get rid of the old stuff but replaced with stuff worse.
Again, that is purely your opinion, many people disagree with that opinion. Opinions differ. To each their own.

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Old 03-10-2013, 05:12 PM   #162
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Actually regarding the Big Barda Superman porn film I'm pretty sure they did do something judging my Mr Miracles horrified reaction when he sees the tape. I don't think he'd act like that if it was just a kiss.




For the record I'm a fan of Byrnes Superman, but I do think this one was a but strange.

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Old 03-11-2013, 01:30 AM   #163
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

No, the only way to derive the assumption that the video is Superman/Big Barda pornography is by taking that scene out of context. Context is key. That story is a two-parter that began in Action Comics #592 (1987) "...A Walk on the Darkside!" where a thief stole Big Barda's purse, which had Barda's Mega-Rod in it, the thief runs down to Metropolis' Suicide Slum sewer where he is captured by Sleez's Ash-Crawler from Apokolips, and Sleez blasts Big Barda with the Mega-Rod, knocking her out. When Big Barda awakens she becomes controlled by Sleez's mind control power and he makes her dance wearing tassels and heavy make up.

Then we learn the origin of Sleez. He use to be Darkseid's henchman on Apokolips until he fell from favor and Darkseid banished Sleez to Earth, where he's lived in the sewers of Metropolis' Suicide Slum.



Meanwhile, Superman's x-ray vision detects traces of a peculiar radiation all through the area of Metropolis known as Suicide Slum, which is the same radiation he detected in elderly citizens from that area, which is keeping them alive at a Metropolis health clinic for low income people. Investigating for the source of the radiation sends Superman down to the sewer where he encounters Big Barda and Sleez. Superman's sudden entrance breaks Sleez's mind control over Big Barda, giving her the chance to obtain her Mega-Rod, she attempts to blast Sleez, but Superman's x-ray vision detects the radiation he'd been searching for is coming from Sleez, so he tries to prevent Big Barda from blasting and killing Sleez. Big Barda then assumes Superman is a pawn of Sleez and blasts Superman with the Mega-Rod, knocking Superman out. Then Sleez's Ash-Crawler from Apokolips snatches Big Barda's Mega-Rod and Sleez opens a trap door sending both Big Barda and unconscious Superman down. In Action Comics #593 (1987) "The Suicide Snare" Darkseid is at Mister Miracle's house and gives him the video tape of Big Barda (presumably dancing wearing just tassels and heavy make up), filmed by Sleez in the sewer.

Then Grossman, who has seen, produced and distributed the video of Big Barda, and is introduced to Superman (under Sleez's mind control) and Sleez (thinly disguised as "Mister Smith") purposes the idea of filming a video of Superman with Big Barda.



But they are resistant to Sleez's mind control. Earlier Sleez commented that Big Barda's strength of will is great. Sleez also comments on Superman's strong moral fibre making him resistant to Sleez's power. All they do is hug and kiss.

Mister Miracle finds Sleez and Grossman's set, and is surprised to see Superman there with Big Barda, and he worries that it's about to go too far as Big Barda and Superman hug and kiss, and he crashes in through the window.

Mister Miracle's sudden entrance breaks Sleez's mind control. Big Barda fights and kills Sleez's Ash-Crawler from Apokolips...Superman flies after Sleez, who has escaped into the sewer amongst the lead pipes, until Superman finds him, and Sleez then seems to kill himself by lighting a match which ignited the gases from the decomposing sewage. The blast blew off all the manhole covers all over Suicide Slum. Then Superman, as Clark Kent, goes back to the health clinic, assuming that if Sleez is dead, so are the elderly patients that Sleez's bodily radiation was inadvertently keeping alive. But Clark Kent discovers to his surprise that they are still alive and the radiation that his x-ray vision detected in their bodies is still there, still keeping them alive. But he had discovered that the radiation came from Sleez. Sleez feed on human misery and the destruction of the human spirit, but he also inadvertently gave off the excess energy as pure life force. That life force is what's keeping those elderly people alive, and if they're still alive...than so is Sleez.

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THE DEATH OF "SUPERMAN LIVES": WHAT HAPPENED?
Release date unknown. Needs finishing funds for new filming of scenes from the Superman script, etc.


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In theaters August 22nd.

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Old 03-11-2013, 02:45 AM   #164
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Oh so that follows the video, sorry I hadn't read the issue in a while and I thought the video was if them kissing. Apologies.

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Old 03-13-2013, 10:19 AM   #165
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Does anyone know what Byrne meant when he compared his revamped Superman to the Fleischer Superman? I'm not seeing any references in his issues. He claimed "I'm going back to the basics. My Superman is basically the Seigel/Shuster version mixed with the Fleischer Superman set in 1986."

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Old 03-13-2013, 07:36 PM   #166
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Like Superman in Byrne's comics, Superman in the Fleischer cartoons was less powerful than the Pre-Crisis Silver Age/Bronze Age comics Superman and the popular Christopher Reeve Superman.

Like Clark Kent in Byrne's comics, Clark Kent in the Fleischer cartoons showed some confidence, some seriousness and self-reliant aggressiveness as an investigative reporter, and scooped Lois out of writing the story in "The Mummy Strikes." The Fleischer Clark Kent didn't act like a Jerry Lewis-esque bumbling buffoon goofball like the popular Christopher Reeve Clark and wasn't a TV news anchor like the Pre-Crisis Bronze Age comics Clark.

Primarily the Fleischer cartoons provided John Byrne with an influence for Superman battling gigantic monsters that give him a physical challenge. Like Superman in Byrne's comics, Superman in the Fleischer cartoons fought a lot of monstrous (often gigantic) super-powered foes that gave him a physical challenge that he had to struggle to defeat - the giant robots in "The Mechanical Monsters," the giant dinosaur creature in "The Arctic Giant," the giant gorilla in "Terror on the Midway" and the giant mummies in "The Mummy Strikes" and the race of hawk people in "The Underground World."
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That all had an influence on John Byrne. The story where Superman battles the gigantic Host in Mummy bandages is even titled "The Mummy Strikes" (Superman #5 (1987)) obviously even titled after "The Mummy Strikes" Fleischer Superman cartoon from 1943.


Also in that issue Superman has a dream flashback about his battle against the giant Hounds of War robots from Apokolips with Wonder Woman which took place in the Legends mini-series.

Superman fought many gigantic foes in John Byrne's run. The giant creature created by the Serabite Stone (Action Comics #585 (1987) "... And Graves Give Up Their Dead...").

The giant Pacifier/Glommer of Apokolips (Superman #3 (1987) "Legends from the Darkside").

The giant towers (Action Comics #587 (1987) "Cityscape!"). The gigantic Rampage (Superman #7 (1987) "Rampage!"). The giant Klaash robot (Superman #10 (1987) "The Super Menace of Metropolis"). The giant strange microbes, giant tentacle organisms (Action Comics #589 (1987) "Green on Green"). The giant Chemo (Action Comics #590 (1987) "Better Living/Dying Through Chemistry"). The giant Highmaster (Superman #14 (1987) "Last Stand!").

The Prankster's giant rubber flower (Superman #16 (1987) "He Only Laughs When I Hurt!"). Professor Killgrave's giant Juggernaut (Superman #19 (1988) "The Power that Failed!"). The giant Dreadnaught (The Adventures of Superman #442 (1988) "Power Play").


Also Superman fighting giant foes dates back to creator Jerry Siegel's "Giants of Doom Valley" (1940) where Superman fought giant men and giant vultures, that was published in the Superman newspaper strip.

Also Superman fighting giant foes dates back to creator Jerry Siegel's "The Chosen" (1940) where Superman fought a giant spider, that was published in the Superman newspaper strip.

Also Superman fighting giant foes dates back to creator Jerry Siegel's "Bandit Robots of Metropolis" (1940) where Superman fought giant robots, that was published in the Superman newspaper strip.

Superman also fought the giant robots on the cover of Action Comics #36 (1941). Superman fighting giants also dates back to Superman #8 (1941) "The Giants of Professor Zee" by creator Jerry Siegel. Superman fighting giant creatures also dates back to Superman #12 (1941) "The Beasts of Luthor" by creator Jerry Siegel where Superman battled a giant octopus, a pair of giant lions and a giant reptile. There were also giant ants. So Superman versus giant monstrous foes is not just faithful to the Fleischer cartoons, it's actually also faithful to Jerry Siegel's vision.

John Byrne explained, "Part of the homework I did preparing to take on Superman was to study up on as much material as I could find. First the comics, of course, and there I sifted through almost fifty years of often very contradictory material. I looked at the serials, the George Reeves TV series, the Fleischer cartoons and, of course, the Christopher Reeve movies. I also checked out how the character had been handled in his Superboy adventures. With all that percolating in my brain, I took the parts that seemed to be most consistent thru-out, and then added a few modernizations."

John Byrne also commented, "George Reeves introduced me to the character, so he will always have a special place in my heart. As will Wayne Boring, who was principle artist when I started reading the comics. The Fleischer cartoons gave another kind of life to Superman, as did Christopher Reeve."

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/f...s.asp?TID=5126
http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/f...427&PN=0&TPN=2

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Release date unknown. Needs finishing funds for new filming of scenes from the Superman script, etc.


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Old 03-13-2013, 10:00 PM   #167
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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Like Superman in Byrne's comics, Superman in the Fleischer cartoons was less powerful than the Pre-Crisis Silver Age/Bronze Age comics Superman and the popular Christopher Reeve Superman.

Like Clark Kent in Byrne's comics, Clark Kent in the Fleischer cartoons showed some confidence, some seriousness and self-reliant aggressiveness as an investigative reporter, and scooped Lois out of writing the story in "The Mummy Strikes." The Fleischer Clark Kent didn't act like a Jerry Lewis-esque bumbling buffoon goofball like the popular Christopher Reeve Clark and wasn't a TV news anchor like the Pre-Crisis Bronze Age comics Clark.

Primarily the Fleischer cartoons provided John Byrne with an influence for Superman battling gigantic monsters that give him a physical challenge. Like Superman in Byrne's comics, Superman in the Fleischer cartoons fought a lot of monstrous (often gigantic) super-powered foes that gave him a physical challenge that he had to struggle to defeat - the giant robots in "The Mechanical Monsters," the giant dinosaur creature in "The Arctic Giant," the giant gorilla in "Terror on the Midway" and the giant mummy in "The Mummy Strikes" and the race of hawk people in "The Underground World." That all had an influence on John Byrne having Superman battle the gigantic Host rapped in Mummy bandages in an story even titled "The Mummy Strikes" (Superman #5 (1987)). The giant creature created by the Serabite Stone (Action Comics #585 (1987) "... And Graves Give Up Their Dead..."). The giant Pacifier/Glommer (Superman #3 (1987) "Legends from the Darkside"). The giant towers (Action Comics #587 (1987) "Cityscape!"). The gigantic Rampage (Superman #7 (1987) "Rampage!"). The gaint Klaash robot (Superman #10 (1987) "The Super Menace of Metropolis"). The giant strange microbes, giant tentacle organisms (Action Comics #589 (1987) "Green on Green"). The giant Chemo (Action Comics #590 (1987) "Better Living/Dying Through Chemistry"). The giant Highmaster (Superman #14 (1987) "Last Stand!"). The Prankster's giant rubber flower (Superman #16 (1987) "He Only Laughs When I Hurt!"). Professor Killgrave's giant Juggernaut (Superman #19 (1988) "The Power that Failed!"). The giant Dreadnaught (The Adventures of Superman #442 (1988) "Power Play").

John Byrne explained, "Part of the homework I did preparing to take on Superman was to study up on as much material as I could find. First the comics, of course, and there I sifted through almost fifty years of often very contradictory material. I looked at the serials, the George Reeves TV series, the Fleischer cartoons and, of course, the Christopher Reeve movies. I also checked out how the character had been handled in his Superboy adventures. With all that percolating in my brain, I took the parts that seemed to be most consistent thru-out, and then added a few modernizations."

John Byrne also commented, "George Reeves introduced me to the character, so he will always have a special place in my heart. As will Wayne Boring, who was principle artist when I started reading the comics. The Fleischer cartoons gave another kind of life to Superman, as did Christopher Reeve."

http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/f...s.asp?TID=5126
http://www.byrnerobotics.com/forum/f...427&PN=0&TPN=2

Oh my god. Finally someone has given me an explanation. I've been needing a logical explanation to Byrne's claim for years! Thank you so much!

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Old 03-14-2013, 08:23 AM   #168
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Some very good posts here explaining a lot of what Byrne did. I have always been a fan of Byrnes Man of Steel.

My favorite Byrne quote is the fact that Clark is the disguise if you are a believer that his life starts the moment he put on his Superman costume. The original 1938 creation, was Clark Kent until he became Superman as an adult. He is the man who was brought up by Pa and Ma Kent.

I have always hated when Superman said "Great Krypton!"...yes really great, ûber-species that managed to blow themselves up.

Its always also funny when people use the argument that Byrne's Man of Steel has been rebooted so many times becouse it was "so bad" and "failed" and whatever. Heck, Waids "Birthright" was rebooted in like 15 minutes, when Byrne's stuff lasted like 15+ years. DC has always rebooted and revamped Supermans origins, they did it before MOS and they have keept doing it.

Heck in the 10 years, we have gotten Birthright, Secret Origin, and now Morrison's run on Action Comics. Using the logic some guys use on Byrnes "failure", then all the other origins must be failures becouse they keep rebooting them too!.

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Old 03-14-2013, 11:33 AM   #169
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Can't argue with that....I'd find the new revisions on Superman more palatable if his current look didn't suck so bad. His costume is the thing that Did Not need to change.

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Old 03-14-2013, 05:20 PM   #170
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

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They had killed everyone on their Earth and they were threatening to find his universe and repeat their atrocity. Superman was the lone representative of that now-dead world. So he acted as their executioner. He executed them as punishment, and prevention from them finding his universe and repeating their atrocity on his Earth.



Superman creator Jerry Siegel had the Golden Age Superman kill villains as well in some cases while Siegel still had creative control of Superman. That was only changed because an Editorial Advisory Board was created by DC editorial director Whitney Ellsworth in Octobor, 1941. DC's Editorial Board was replaced with the creation of the Comics Code Authority in 1954.

This is from the transcript of the 1954 Senate hearings showing the editorial policy restrictions that every DC writer and artist had to follow from 1941 to 1954:

EDITORIAL POLICY FOR SUPERMAN D─C PUBLICATIONS

1. Sex. ─ The inclusion of females in stories is specifically discouraged. Women, when used in plot structure, should be secondary in importance, and should be drawn realistically, without exaggeration of feminine physical qualities.
2. Language. ─ Expessions having reference to the Deity are forbidden. Heroes and other "good” persons must use basically good English, through some slang and other colloquialism may be judiciously employed. Poor grammar is used only by crooks and villains ─ and not always by them.
3. Bloodshed. ─ Characters ─ even villains ─ should never be shown bleeding. No character should be shown being stabbed or shot or otherwise assaulted so that the sanguinary result is visible. Acts of mayhem are specifically forbidden. The picturization of dead bodies is forbidden.
4. Torture. ─ The use of chains, whips, or other such devices is forbidden. Anything having a sexual or sadistic implication is forbidden.
5. Kidnaping. ─ The kidnaping of children is specifically forbidden. The kidnaping of women is discouraged, and must never have any sexual implication.
6. Killing. ─ Heroes should never kill a villain, regardless of the depth of the villainy. The villain, If he is to die, should do so as the result of his own evil machinations. A specific exception may be made in the case of duly constituted officers of the law. The use of lethal weapons by women ─ even villainous women ─ is discouraged.
7.Crime. ─ Crime should be depicted in all cases as sordid and unpleasant. Crime and criminals must never be glamorized. All stories must be written and depicted from the angle of the law ─ never the reverse. Justice must triumph in every case.
In general, the policy of Superman D─C Publications is to provide interesting, dramatic, and reasonably exciting entertainment without having recourse to such artificial devices as the use of exaggerated physical manifestations of sex, sexual situations, or situations in which violence is emphasized sadistically. Good people should be good, and bad people bad, without middle ground shading. Good people need not be "stuffy" to be good, but bad people should not be excused. Heroes should act within the law, and for the law.

.
Totally agree I really liked that story too

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Old 03-15-2013, 08:39 AM   #171
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Byrne's stories aren't good. Look at them again. They are badly plotted most of the time.

I've just noticed that the porn producer from Byrne's story is called "Grossmann". LOL, typical Jewish name and he is also drawn like a stereotypical-looking jew. Good lord, Byrne.

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Old 03-15-2013, 09:09 AM   #172
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

TruerToTheCore

Have you also noticed that Byrne has created positive good HBT characters during his career? that whatever you may find in his career there are several progressive and nice stories that show minorities in a good way?

Did you notice also that the comic you have such problems with was approved by the Comics Code Authority? and the point of it was that if uyou are a child you think that its just a kiss, the comic doesn't show anything else. If you want it to be "disgusting" , well then it is.

Could "Grossman" also be "Gross Man" ? etc.

Your hatred over 30 year old comics is quite passionate. Maybe you should, u know, ignore that, and just read stuff that gives you positive feelings?

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Old 03-15-2013, 10:39 AM   #173
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Drawn like a stereotypical Jew? Grossman isn't depicted with any stereotypically Jewish things as a yamaka or a full bushy beard, or saying "Oy vey," etc. Are glasses and a goatee stereotypically Jewish? No. People of many races wear glasses and goatee.

A lot of the surnames that sound Jewish to some people are simply German names such as Grossman. Grossman is actually an ancient German surname of medieval origins. Recorded in many forms including Gros, Gross, Grosse, Groz, Groos, all meaning big or large, and was given as a surname to a large person, and compounds based upon Gross such as Grossbauer (Big farmer), Grooskopf (Big head), Grosman, Groseman and Grossman (the friend of Gross), Grossnickel (big Nicholas), this was a name of medieval origins. It was in most cases a name which may have originally meant literally what it says, or as in the case of Grossman for instance could indicate either a big man, or more likely a friend or servant of a person called Gross. Compound surnames were not necessarily descriptive at all, they were often purely ornamental. As such they were given either to refugees from foreign parts, Germany being considered for centuries the most liberal part of Europe, or sometimes to people who had a common name like Schmit or Schmidt.

"TruerToTheCore," I am sure everyone is well aware of you're opinion of John Byrne's comics by now. Repeatedly posting harassingly inflammatory, hostile comments to know fans of the material you repeatedly bash and call "total ****", etc. is essentially trolling. And again, you are acting like you're opinions are facts. Obviously, as you must already know, I and the others disagree with you're opinion. No amount of hostile comments is going to change that, yet you have continued posting inflammatory, hostile comments with the apparent goal of trying to provoke people into an angry flame war.

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Old 03-16-2013, 06:06 AM   #174
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

Here's a rebuttal to the accusations that John Byrne depowered Superman "too much"...this is from Superman #19 (1988)...



This was also yet another homage to the Golden Age, this time an obvious homage to the Superman #32 (1945) cover by Wayne Boring of Superman getting struck, and being completely unharmed, and making a humorous comment about it...

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Old 03-16-2013, 01:00 PM   #175
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Default Re: What was Mark Waid's issues with the 1986 retelling?

The "it tickles" cover is one of my favs. Somehow it sums up Superman.

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