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Old 03-09-2013, 07:03 PM   #1
the last son
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Default What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

Lets start with begins. Forgetting the fact that scarecrow is a better villain than in begins with tons and tons of way more potential, how does he end? Being tasered and screaming away like a little wimp. Smh.

Ras Al ghul. I have a problem with Batman not saving him. Batman just letting someone die is not how Batman does it. So how that ended is sort of problem for me not huge but a problem.

Joker. The dark knight ending to joker is darn good but that is the last we see or hear from him again so that being his official ending is weak overall. I always said it was a mistake not to continue with the joker for a third movie joker being recast because I thought it would make for a better story.

Two-face. My only problem with this is I wanted two face to remain alive because he's one of my favorite villains and one who could easily be in all 3 movies of a trilogy. He's that fascinating and we never really got to see him spread his wings as a villain.

Bane blasted by catwoman was so uninspiring. I mean I wanted batman to end bane somehow. Like batman and bane fighting near a ledge in an epic battle and bane somehow someway falls off.

Talia is a much more interesting character than this movie made her out. Why make a reveal only to have her be killed 5 minutes later. What a waste.

I'm hoping Nolan and his team don't make the same mistakes for man of steel and crank it up a notch for how the villains are ended.

Agree or disagree?

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Old 03-09-2013, 07:34 PM   #2
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

Only bad ones are Scarecrow's and Bane's in my opinion, but it's not like they were very good or compelling villains anyway. Scarecrow's was pretty disappointing, because it felt like we finally got a fully realized, intimidating Scarecrow so a tazer to the face screaming is a buzz kill. I think everyone expected a final confrontation with Batman before he headed off to face Ra's. But whatever.
Bane? Don't even care. He was a pretty poor character in general, especially after how great the Joker was, not like it matters if he had a cool ending/death/defeat. Same goes for Talia. At least she had a laughably bad death scene. It sure wasn't boring to come back from the show and see all the criticism regarding her death scene.


I think Joker's was fine, it's just a shame we never got to see more of him again. What did people want? It was either going to end with him being captured or hav him die. We get a great scene of him finally being subdued, upside down and having a great speech to Batman. The last shot is the SWAT team moving in and he does that fantastic, hysterical laugh where it looks like he's crying and in tears.



This might have been cool to include in TDK's montage. Maybe have him getting thrown into the car and having it drive away, and he overhears cops over the police radio that they're pursuing a new suspect, the Batman. Cut away and show a final smile on his face.












I'd like to think they shot that after the Prewitt siege, but it was most likely after he's apprehended by Gordon after the street scene while Dent is talking to the media/press. Too bad it was never included. Would have made nice symmetry with the scene where he's hanging out of the car window.



Two-Face? While I wish they delved into the split personality and rich characterization from the comics, the final ending would have been different had he lived. We were never going to get "Two-Face" as most people know him, so the end is fitting for what it is. I like the contrast between "White Knight" and "Dark Knight" and having the two of them laying at the bottom of the hole. Two-Face literally falls, but Batman takes the fall. Batman also breaks his one rule to save an innocent child. It's appropriate.


Ra's? While I don't agree with the fact that Batman just lets him die (just as bad as killing really) with a sadistic quip, I do like how he man's up and calmly meditates and accepts his fate. I don't think he had a poor ending.



But Scarecrow and Bane? Yeah, I agree.


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Old 03-09-2013, 07:56 PM   #3
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

The one I would strongly disagree on is Joker's. I loved his "ending". The whole speech about how he and Batman are destined to battle forever, and then revealing what he did to Dent. Laughing gleefully at Batman after revealing what he's done to Dent. Beautiful. I love how he's swinging back and forth on the bat rope while he's doing it.

Dent's was such an emotionally charged ending that I had no problem with it. Batman and Gordon talking over Dent's dead body, and making the decision to cover up his crimes so he can stay the hero to Gotham.

Scarecrow being tazed by Rachel was pathetic. But at least it wasn't his final end.

I'd no problem with Ra's death. I loved how he calmly closes his eyes before the train crashes. Talia's was laughable because of Cottiard's comical acting.

Bane's is by far the worst though. Blown away nonchalantly by Catwoman, and never seen or mentioned again after that like he was nothing.

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Old 03-09-2013, 08:13 PM   #4
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

I too would have liked to have seen more of the Joker and Two Face. That being said, I'm find with the endings they had, as well as Ras's finale. I didn't really think too much of Scarecrow's 'ending' in Begins. I love the character and he did deserve better, but I could rationalize it with the fact that Scarecrow was usually a wimpy character. As stated above, Cottiard's acting did her charcater's ending no favours. Mind you, I thought the whole idea of having a paralyzed Talia giving a huge speech to Batman and company was a pretty lame idea in the first place. Not sure if even Brando could have made that scene work. Bane's death came across as more of a punchline to a joke then anything else. Might have been more effective if he was run over by a bus driver

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Old 03-09-2013, 08:27 PM   #5
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

The worst ending is Scarecrow in Batman Begins BY FAR. For anyone to argue this is only kidding themselves. He gets tasered by the ****ing love interest...and who plays the love interest? KATIE FREAKING HOLMES. It's just terrible, and even moreso when Scarecrow was actually a worthwhile villain in BB which then he was downgraded as only a very quick threat and then finally just as a cameo. It's not so much as the way Scarecrow is downsized with the progression of the trilogy, but that the film that he has the most potential in and he's beaten by a taser until we see him again in The Dark Knight.

The best ending? Two-Face. Batman gets shot and still tackles Dent over the edge AND saves Jim's son, leaving Dent's quarter to land on the good side which foreshadows Jim's kid being saved but also that Batman and Gordon now agreed to lie and make Harvey Dent still be this "White Knight". Even to boot, the way Bane rips the picture of Dent in The Dark Knight Rises after revealing the lie ended the Two-Face plot in a way as well(but the last part is really just speculation from me, lol).

Joker being saved was a great ending as well as the entire film was about Joker wanting Batman to kill and even while Joker falls off the building, he is still saved by The Batman.

Ra's and Talia al Ghul's death were very comparable and while some insist on continuing to make fun of Talia's actual death scene, the way they can be compared is fine by me with how they both were "driven" to their deaths, either by a purpose of thinking something is right or by a purpose of pure revenge.

Bane....my favorite Batman villain of all time and second favorite villain in Nolan's trilogy, and what a great ride he gave us in TDKR, but...I can definitely see how people hated the quick way he died. I have zero problem with it because he had a "speech", but via Talia while she was fixing his mask and his death was deserving when he was about to blow off Batman's head with a shotgun, but, still...I won't lie and say I don't understand the "hate".

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Old 03-09-2013, 08:35 PM   #6
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

I can't really choose what was worse: Bane getting offed unceremoniously by Catwoman or Scarecrow getting tazed by Rachel?

I might give the edge to Bane, because his character was built up a lot stronger in the narrative than Crane, considering he was a pawn in BB. I won't even mention Talia, lol.

The sendoffs for the Joker, Two-Face and Ra's were all done extremely well, IMO.

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Old 03-09-2013, 08:47 PM   #7
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

Well if batman saved joker why not Ras? I mean I know ras did himself in but bats went through a lot to save joker and not ras a man with more morals than the joker.

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Old 03-09-2013, 08:49 PM   #8
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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Well if batman saved joker why not Ras? I mean I know ras did himself in but bats went through a lot to save joker and not ras a man with more morals than the joker.
Batman was the one who threw Joker off the building in the first place. If he let him fall to his death that would be murder.

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Old 03-09-2013, 09:06 PM   #9
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Yeah, Batman throws him over after he shoots the gauntlet baldes at Joker's face. He couldn't let the Joker get the last laugh, as much as he wanted to see him go. That's one of the things the Joker wanted. He would have been deliberately killing the Joker in that respect. There was nothing remotely "accidental" about shooting him in the face and throwing him backward.


Ra's on the other hand is a bit different, it's not so cut and dry. It's not like Batman is there, throwing Ra's off the monorail like he had done to the Joker. Then again, it is sort of deliberate and murky territory. Batman planned on stopping the train by force, even before his confrontation with Ra's. So he knew it was going to get derailed and crash (he told Gordon what to do), even before the controls are ever damaged. It was sort of cold and un-Batman like (if you're the kind of person that prefers a comic version of Batman that saves criminals that are in danger) for him to just let Ra's die in a wreck he caused, even if Ra's tried to kill him before, even after Bruce had previously saved him. I guess that's why a lot of people have a problem with the whole "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you".

So he sort of does kill Ra's.



He definitely killed Dent though, breaking his one rule. For me, it makes it deeper. Jimmy Gordon is way more important than the "one rule", he's an innocent child being threatened by a mad man. It's sort of bitter irony that Batman does Dent in, after everything that happened in the film. You can see the anguish in Batman's face, especially after he looks at Dent and gets up and looks back up from where they fell. Like thinking about taking the blame is the least he could do for Dent after "letting that murdering psychopath blow him half to hell" (and the fact that Dent did the same for Batman a day or two earlier). It wasn't just for Dent either, but for Rachel as well.


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Old 03-09-2013, 09:17 PM   #10
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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Well if batman saved joker why not Ras? I mean I know ras did himself in but bats went through a lot to save joker and not ras a man with more morals than the joker.
Ra's destroyed the train's controls and it then became a suicidal mission while Joker was thrown off because of Batman'a gauntlet and it would've looked more like Batman murdered Joker than it would have ever looked like Batman murdered Ra's when he's the one who destroyed the controls and was planning on crashing right into Wayne Tower anyways. It's a very thin line between the two villains for sure though, but I never felt that Batman killed Ra's al Ghul at all. You could say he killed Talia more than Ra's even. And Dent, well...a child's life was far more important.

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Old 03-09-2013, 09:47 PM   #11
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

Batman set Ras up.

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Old 03-09-2013, 09:55 PM   #12
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Batman set Ras up.
Ra's stabbed the controls himself, Batman didn't make him. Ra's made the choice to condemn himself to death.

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Old 03-09-2013, 09:56 PM   #13
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The one I would strongly disagree on is Joker's. I loved his "ending". The whole speech about how he and Batman are destined to battle forever, and then revealing what he did to Dent. Laughing gleefully at Batman after revealing what he's done to Dent. Beautiful. I love how he's swinging back and forth on the bat rope while he's doing it.

Dent's was such an emotionally charged ending that I had no problem with it. Batman and Gordon talking over Dent's dead body, and making the decision to cover up his crimes so he can stay the hero to Gotham.

Scarecrow being tazed by Rachel was pathetic.

I'd no problem with Ra's death. I loved how he calmly closes his eyes before the train crashes. Talia's was laughable because of Cottiard's comical acting.

Bane's is by far the worst though. Blown away nonchalantly by Catwoman, and never seen or mentioned again after that like he was nothing.
So many times I enter TDKR threads ready to type up a long, detailed response only to find you've basically said everything I wanted to.

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Old 03-09-2013, 10:01 PM   #14
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

Bane still has my favorite final line of all the villains. Even thought it's a total one-liner, the implications are so chilling.

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Old 03-09-2013, 10:02 PM   #15
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The villains in these movies had amazing dialogue throughout.

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Old 03-09-2013, 10:04 PM   #16
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Ra's stabbed the controls himself, Batman didn't make him. Ra's made the choice to condemn himself to death.
But don't forget that prior to that, Batman told Gordon to blow the monorail supports to derail the train and also, "who said anything about stopping it". Ra's Al Ghul's face there is priceless by the way.


That's a little premeditated don't you think? Even if the controls weren't damaged in the brawl, Batman still intended to bring down the train with Ra's in it. It doesn't really bother me (I sort of dig Batman's slightly sadistic response to his unfaltering mentor) but I can see how Batman's cold little quip isn't too heroic for some people's tastes and that they'd be against it.

It might have been better for Batman to try and make an attempt to save Ra's for a second time, only to have Ra's refuse. Like I said, it's murky. For someone that's as good and noble as Batman, the whole "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" is a little harsh. He planned to take out the train, the wreckage was all his doing, whether Ra's wanted to go with it or not.

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Old 03-09-2013, 10:05 PM   #17
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The villains in these movies had amazing dialogue throughout.
That's the truth right there. Some of the most quotable movie villains in recent memory.

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Old 03-09-2013, 10:15 PM   #18
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Ra's stabbed the controls himself, Batman didn't make him. Ra's made the choice to condemn himself to death.
Batman is the one who stabbed the controls, actually. I was confused by this but if you watch closely it's Bats. That was his back up plan, "who said anything about stopping it?"

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Old 03-09-2013, 10:15 PM   #19
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Bane still has my favorite final line of all the villains. Even thought it's a total one-liner, the implications are so chilling.

I think Joker curb stomps Bane with the "I took Gotham's white knight and I brought him down to our level. It wasn't hard. You see, madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it takes is a little push!" line.



As far as implications go, I think "depending on the time, he may in one spot, or several" kills it as well. That's some dark humor there.

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Old 03-09-2013, 10:16 PM   #20
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Batman is the one who stabbed the controls, actually. I was confused by this but if you watch closely it's Bats. That was his back up plan, "who said anything about stopping it?"
Watch the Blu Ray, the arm stabbing it with the (knife or broken sword, can't remember which at the moment) has a sleeve.

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Old 03-09-2013, 10:20 PM   #21
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I think Joker curb stomps Bane with the "I took Gotham's white knight and I brought him down to our level. It wasn't hard. You see, madness, as you know, is like gravity. All it takes is a little push!" line.



As far as implications go, I think "depending on the time, he may in one spot, or several" kills it as well. That's some dark humor there.
Curb stomps? Easy there broski, haha.

Imagine the fire was epic. I know the line I was comparing it against, and I like it more/found it more poetic in its brevity.

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Old 03-09-2013, 10:20 PM   #22
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Batman is the one who stabbed the controls, actually. I was confused by this but if you watch closely it's Bats. That was his back up plan, "who said anything about stopping it?"

I think Ra's did it by accident trying to stab Batman in the fight, like Gotham's Knight stated. But still, Batman knew what was up and planned on derailing it any way before that even happened. Like you posted and I stated above, "who said anything about stopping it".



The Nolans and Goyer even said that their Batman wasn't above killing or breaking his one rule and that, in the case of the first and second film, he breaks it. The whole Ra's thing is a bit messy.

Dent is a definite kill. So is the garbage truck driver and HEMTT driver and maybe even Miranda Tate. Ra's could be included in there, depending on how you look at it.

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Old 03-09-2013, 10:24 PM   #23
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But don't forget that prior to that, Batman told Gordon to blow the monorail supports to derail the train and also, "who said anything about stopping it". Ra's Al Ghul's face there is priceless by the way.


That's a little premeditated don't you think? Even if the controls weren't damaged in the brawl, Batman still intended to bring down the train with Ra's in it. It doesn't really bother me (I sort of dig Batman's slightly sadistic response to his unfaltering mentor) but I can see how Batman's cold little quip isn't too heroic for some people's tastes and that they'd be against it.

It might have been better for Batman to try and make an attempt to save Ra's for a second time, only to have Ra's refuse. Like I said, it's murky. For someone that's as good and noble as Batman, the whole "I won't kill you, but I don't have to save you" is a little harsh. He planned to take out the train, the wreckage was all his doing, whether Ra's wanted to go with it or not.
Best "Oh *****" face ever.

I saw blowing the tracks as a back up strategy. Basically, if he couldn't shut off the controls, the plan still couldn't be completed. If he just wanted to kill everyone on the train as his primary plan, he'd have no reason to be onboard.

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Old 03-09-2013, 10:25 PM   #24
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Batman set Ras up.
Oh, please explain yourself now.

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Old 03-09-2013, 10:31 PM   #25
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Best "Oh *****" face ever.

I saw blowing the tracks as a back up strategy. Basically, if he couldn't shut off the controls, the plan still couldn't be completed. If he just wanted to kill everyone on the train as his primary plan, he'd have no reason to be onboard.

But then there wouldn't be a final fight or a cool action scene for the film sooooooooo.


It's pretty premeditated, but I can see why Batman setting Ra's up would upset people. It goes either way, it really isn't too clean.


And lets face it, it's not like Batman denies the fact when Talia says that he quote on quote, "murdered him". LOL Batman doesn't say, "no I didn't", he pretty much says, "I had to kill him to save millions of innocent people, I had to".

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