Germans. Still Evil?

[chamber-music]

Alot of South American countries were happy to turn a blindeye to Nazis in their backyard.

A number of South Africans allied with the British and fought with the other commonwealth forces against Rommel in north africa.

It wouldn't of been a good idea to hide out in South Africa when there were a number of Pro-Allie supporters

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militar...g_World_War_II

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Silvermoth

This thread shows the silliest understanding of World War II history really. The idea that the Germans were inferior and weak which led to nazism.

Do you know what the difference between and nazi and you genetically is? Nothing at all. That's the important lesson to take away from this. That hatred of people for superficial reasons is always wrong and that it's a constant struggle to keep bad people away.

Can't believe I missed this.

Thank YOU!

Yup. Nail on the head.

The biggest difference between us and the Nazis is the Nazis lost, but the bigotry and hatred that was core to their structure still remains.

The Holocaust was only possible because Germany was anything but weak or inferior. They had an ultra-efficient infrastructure and government. Compared to the United States which will have Senate hearings over what kind of toilet paper is best for the Bureau of Indian Affairs Building. That's one thing I've always wondered. Were blacks spared a much grimmer fate simply due to the slow and plodding nature of our Government? I often think they were. We're more spread out, larger continent and slower Congress and Executive. There is so much in-fighting in our Government often basic needs go unmet, certainly back then, but also now, so we simply lack the resources of ability to draw up something like the Holocaust. By the time the Germans had the trains running, we'd still be arguing about what color to paint the stars of David. The Indians were easy targets for us because they lay firmly outside of our population. As such, we just didn't care, and not enough popular support for maintaining the Indians civilizations that existed.

In Germany, like I said before, just a perfect storm. Their Antisemitic attitudes was our racism, coupled with a more efficient Government and a population who had a chip on their shoulder about being made broke by the last war. Plus the Jews had faired somewhat okay, kept a lot of their wealth, so not only was Antisemitism a problem, but the Jews made obvious targets.

However we could easily do something similar.

[Thundercrack85]

Originally Posted by Deathlok

Take a look at what is happening in Greece with the "Golden Dawn" movement. The parallels to them and how Nazism started in Germany in the 1930's is truly frightening. We have learnt nothing as a species in the last hundred years.

And that's just weird, because a ton of Greeks were murdered by the Nazis (and Germans). But then they're pretty hated by most Greeks. Golden Dawn I mean (well, Germans too, by older people).

[SuperMike335!!]

VIDEO-CLick to Watch!:

^^^^
This thread makes me think of this guy.

[Hobgoblin]

I know this thread is dead but this story is too great to not pass on.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/03/09/living...html?hpt=hp_c2

[Thundercrack85]

You know it's funny, that's not unlike what happened to Hitler. In World War I, a British soldier was about to off him, then the soldier decided to spare him because he saw he was wounded, and exhausted.

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Bet they didn't have a warm reunion though (unless you count the heat from the blitz fire).

[James]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

You know it's funny, that's not unlike what happened to Hitler. In World War I, a British soldier was about to off him, then the soldier decided to spare him because he saw he was wounded, and exhausted.

That's not the kind of story you'd think a guy would spread around. "Oh, you lads will laugh...I know that guy! I was going to slot him but he looked right buggered so I spared the poor chap, hahaha!...lads? Lads...?"

[Thundercrack85]

True, but you have to remember that Hitler was immensely popular for a while before World War II. In fact, if he had died in the mid thirties, he would probably be remembered as Germany's greatest leader (or at least up there with Bismarck).

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Originally Posted by James

That's not the kind of story you'd think a guy would spread around. "Oh, you lads will laugh...I know that guy! I was going to slot him but he looked right buggered so I spared the poor chap, hahaha!...lads? Lads...?"

That's the last thing his mates hear as a V2 rocket obliterates their pub.

[Parker Wayne]

I'm surprise Erwin Rommel hasn't been brought up in detail in this thread.

Yeah, I can't hate Erwin Rommel. He's a man who constantly ignored orders to kill prisoners of war, foreigns citizens, Jewish people. Even though he was a nazi general who was responsible for Germany's success in war unfortunately, he actually opposed Hitler and was in on the failed attempt to kill Hiter, which led to his death. If only more German soldiers were like him, Hitler could have been overthrown.

Like many things in the world, people try to paint things in black and white when it's not that simple.

[Thundercrack85]

Let's not go nuts. Rommel was a recreational conquerer, and not a genocidal madman. That doesn't make him a great guy. That just makes him better than the Nazis.

He was aware that a number of officers were conspiring to kill Hitler. He was not complicit (if he was, he would have been executed). But since he was aware of the plot, and told no one about it, he was forced to commit suicide by Hitler.

Though judging by the number of officers killed in the days following the plot (several thousands, including numerous generals), it was apparently common knowledge to many senior Wehrmacht officers.

[Parker Wayne]

Actually, several conspirators confessed that Rommel was involved in the plot to kill Hitler.

[Thundercrack85]

Originally Posted by Parker Wayne

Actually, several conspirators confessed that Rommel was involved in the plot to kill Hitler.

Read up. Most of them were being tortured by the Gestapo, they named multiple people (they did arrest 7,000 people). The people who brought the charges against Rommel had old scores to settle (SS vs Wehrmacht).

He actually rejected the plot outright (according to one of the key conspirators), since he thought it would result in a civil war (he was probably right, since it nearly did).

I'm not saying don't give the man his due, he was a villain with some noble qualities, but he's still a villain.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

Let's not go nuts. Rommel was a recreational conquerer, and not a genocidal madman. That doesn't make him a great guy. That just makes him better than the Nazis.

He was aware that a number of officers were conspiring to kill Hitler. He was not complicit (if he was, he would have been executed). But since he was aware of the plot, and told no one about it, he was forced to commit suicide by Hitler.

Though judging by the number of officers killed in the days following the plot (several thousands, including numerous generals), it was apparently common knowledge to many senior Wehrmacht officers.

Let's not pretend like Rommel didn't kill a lot of people in pursuit of this recreation.

I think Hitler isn't helped by the fact that his actions against the Jews seems very narrow in it's focus, and doesn't really seem to follow any real logic outside of the antisemitism which was found both in Europe and the United States (especially in the south). There were some economic motivations behind Hitler's actions against the Jews, but it's not as plain or as understandable on it's surface as our economic interest in exploiting the blacks and Natives. The land the Jews were on in Germany already belonged to Hitler, unlike the territories we took hold of from the Natives, and while the Jews were used as laborers, and needed to support the economy, that bore itself more out of convenience. They would've done that if another hypothetical group of prisoners were chosen.

It does seem like if you want to be a nation of any prominence, prison logic seems to be a good analogy: if you want to be a great nation, walk up and beat the sh** out of biggest f***er in the room.

[Thundercrack85]

Hitler's hatred of the Jews wasn't that exceptional, considering most of the planning for the holocaust was apparently delegated to other people. The true number involved will always be debated. But this notion that a few people carried it out is historical revisionism of the worst kind. But then, even most of those people were never brought to justice.

Though I suppose culpability breaks down to degrees. The average joe may not have known the exact details of the death camps (though they did build them), but they were certainly complicit in the systematic discrimination, disenfranchisement and deportations that led directly to them.

Makes you wonder what the average German thought was going to happen to the Jews.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

Hitler's hatred of the Jews wasn't that exceptional, considering most of the planning for the holocaust was apparently delegated to other people. The true number involved will always be debated. But this notion that a few people carried it out is historical revisionism of the worst kind. But then, even most of those people were never brought to justice.

Though I suppose culpability breaks down to degrees. The average joe may not have known the exact details of the death camps (though they did build them), but they were certainly complicit in the systematic discrimination, disenfranchisement and deportations that led directly to them.

Makes you wonder what the average German thought was going to happen to the Jews.

Like many said, they were ignorant of some of the details, but they understood the gist of what was happening. Between the stars of David, laws against sheltering Jews, it was pretty obvious.

[JJJ's Ulcer]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

Hitler's hatred of the Jews wasn't that exceptional, considering most of the planning for the holocaust was apparently delegated to others.

I always thought Goebbels and Himmler were more evil and complicit in the actual planning and implementation of the persecution and subsequent extermination of the Jews. Hitler was the boss and it was his ideology, but those two pursued their parts (propaganda and overseeing the camps respectively) with a cold and efficient ruthlessness. They to me, were the two most evil men of an already very evil regime. If Rommel was the "best" Nazi (if there was such a thing) then Himmler was the worst.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by JJJ's Ulcer

I always thought Goebbels and Himmler were more evil and complicit in the actual planning and implementation of the persecution and subsequent extermination of the Jews. Hitler was the boss and it was his ideology, but those two pursued their parts (propaganda and overseeing the camps respectively) with a cold and efficient ruthlessness. They to me, were the two most evil men of an already very evil regime. If Rommel was the "best" Nazi (if there was such a thing) then Himmler was the worst.

You think correct.

[MessiahDecoy123]

Originally Posted by Thundercrack85

Makes you wonder what the average German thought was going to happen to the Jews.

I think it's ridiculous to think the German people knew the Jews were being deported to camps for mass execution.

Of course hindsight is 20/20 but they had no idea at the time.

The Japanese were rounded up and put in camps in the USA. Americans didn't expect them to be executed, nor did the Germans who saw Jews rounded up.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123

I think it's ridiculous to think the German people knew the Jews were being deported to camps for mass execution.

You might think it ridiculous, but you are wrong, they did know. It's fairly easy to understand why they were complicit; the same reason Americans were complicit in seeing natives driven from their land and executed, they economically benefited, despite it being on the suffering of others.

This still happens. A more casual example is the shirt I am wearing was made by a child who is basically a slave, who may even have died in the factory while making my clothes, yet I'm far enough removed from him, and it benefits me, so the behavior persists. Even though my pleasure comes at someone else expense.

[MessiahDecoy123]

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

You might think it ridiculous, but you are wrong, they did know. It's fairly easy to understand why they were complicit; the same reason Americans were complicit in seeing natives driven from their land and executed, they economically benefited, despite it being on the suffering of others.

This still happens. A more casual example is the shirt I am wearing was made by a child who is basically a slave, who may even have died in the factory while making my clothes, yet I'm far enough removed from him, and it benefits me, so the behavior persists. Even though my pleasure comes at someone else expense.

How would the German public know the Jews weren't being deported but gassed and put in ovens? How could they know. Those things were done far away from the cities in guarded secret.

Not even the Jews knew when they were put on trains. Some had suspicions based on rumors in the ghettos but the Nazis kept the entire operation very secret. They knew there would be weakened public support and even mass revolts if word got out.

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123

How would the German public know the Jews weren't being deported but gassed and put in ovens? How could they know. Those things were done far away from the cities in guarded secret.

It was hardly a guarded secret. It was well known just from visual evidence, what with the stars of David, and war propaganda. You just seem to want them to be unaware because, I dunno, you're uncomfortable with the notion they could be so cruel. That's pretty naive considering we do the same things now, in many countries, with most of the general world population not giving a sh**. Yes, some Jews were unaware initially, but once the trains were running and everything was up and rolling people knew. You have to understand that this was before the age of the internet, so the initial surprise is to be expected, since news traveled slower those days.

Not even the Jews knew when they were put on trains. Some had suspicions based on rumors in the ghettos but the Nazis kept the entire operation very secret. They knew there would be weakened public support and even mass revolts if word got out.

There were tons of revolts and uprisings of Jews, many of them armed uprisings, but the SS was just way too much for them. There was even a formal Jewish Resistance Force that existed in Germany and Poland throughout the war.

[MessiahDecoy123]

Originally Posted by Optimus_Prime_

It was hardly a guarded secret. It was well known just from visual evidence, what with the stars of David, and war propaganda. You just seem to want them to be unaware because, I dunno, you're uncomfortable with the notion they could be so cruel. That's pretty naive considering we do the same things now, in many countries, with most of the general world population not giving a sh**. Yes, some Jews were unaware initially, but once the trains were running and everything was up and rolling people knew. You have to understand that this was before the age of the internet, so the initial surprise is to be expected, since news traveled slower those days.

There were tons of revolts and uprisings of Jews, many of them armed uprisings, but the SS was just way too much for them. There was even a formal Jewish Resistance Force that existed in Germany and Poland throughout the war.

The Jews spent years in the ghettos before any revolts. Even with the stars of David, being put in ghettos with horrible conditions, and the government/media slander the resistance leaders believed the deportations were for labor camps, not extermination camps.

By the time it became obvious it was too late. Much of the ghetto populations had already been taken away.

Now if it wasn't obvious to Jews in the ghettos for years why would the average German know?

When the deportations first began, members of the Jewish resistance movement met and decided not to fight the SS directives, believing that the Jews were being sent to labour camps and not to their deaths. By the end of 1942, Ghetto inhabitants learned that the deportations were part of an extermination process. Many of the remaining Jews decided to revolt.[10]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warsaw_Ghetto_Uprising

[Optimus_Prime_]

Originally Posted by MessiahDecoy123

The Jews spent years in the ghettos before any revolts. Even with the stars of David, being put in ghettos with horrible conditions, and the government/media slander the resistance leaders believed the deportations were for labor camps, not extermination camps.

By the time it became obvious it was too late. Much of the ghetto populations had already been taken away.

Now if it wasn't obvious to Jews in the ghettos for years why would the average German know?

That was only the famous one. There were many guerrilla style attacks against Germany well before then. They centralized a resistance force in 1942, but smaller groups who acted independently had been attacking SS for quite some time by this point. Also, the "final solution" wasn't arrived upon until later, that's why no one knew about it right away, it wasn't around right away. It was not the originally intention of the Nazis to kill them; they had considered deportation for a while.

Although they had executed quite a few Jews by 1942, these were isolated, many of them simply execution of escaping prisoners, but the Final Solution wasn't even in the works until 1941, and wasn't officially ordered until 1942, so there weren't rumors of it by that point, it hadn't been devised yet.