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View Poll Results: Who made the better Catwoman?
Michelle Pfeiffer 64 37.21%
Anne Hathaway 108 62.79%
Voters: 172. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 03-12-2013, 12:28 AM   #251
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

I actually am completely fine with Selina in BR, because it is a Burton film and has little to do with the comics (i.e. Batman kills, Penguin is a deformed freak raised by super-intelligent penguins in the sewers, Catwoman has 9 lives, etc.).

But I will not pretend there is a false equivalency. The changes Nolan made were mostly superficial. He does not call her Catwoman or give her claws and a whip. But she is a thief, a social climber, very sane and romantically involved with Batman without it being a message about male domination of feminine independence (not that there is anything wrong with that theme). She is both foe to Batman (did people really miss when she betrayed him, reluctantly or not?) and friend (the ending). It is pretty much how the character has been presented on the page for 30 years.

Pffeifer plays a great Burton character. But she has supernatural powers, is psychotic and is a product of German Expresionism in that the level of her sanity and self-control is correspondent with the level of damage and wholeness of her costume. Sure she has a cowl, claws and is played amazingly by Pffeifer, but let's not pretend it is remotely similar to the comics..

I likely prefer the Hathaway one because of fidelity and also because I like the dynamic of Batman and Catwoman being allies instead of her being a generic villain. But I can see the appeal of the other.

Also, yes, I realize she let go of the bird. It is called hyperbole.

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Old 03-12-2013, 12:49 AM   #252
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Yeah, the thief/social climber aspect of Catwoman is just too important to the core of the character for me to say the BR Selena was equally faithful.

Nolan's Selena had little changes here and there like all of the characters he used in the three movies, but it's just another case of them really finding a way to nail the essence of the character.

Pfeiffer performed the hell out of the role though, I don't think too many fans would disagree with that.

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Old 03-12-2013, 01:15 AM   #253
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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I actually am completely fine with Selina in BR, because it is a Burton film and has little to do with the comics (i.e. Batman kills, Penguin is a deformed freak raised by super-intelligent penguins in the sewers, Catwoman has 9 lives, etc.).
What I find really funny, is that the fact that Batman kills actually makes him much more believable, than Nolan's one. And, by the way, he kills. He had to kill (or make other do the dirty work). Nolan's Batman had so many issues with this no-kill policy. But back to Catwoman. Burton's Catwoman has A LOT to do with the comics. Proof in the link above.

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The changes Nolan made were mostly superficial. He does not call her Catwoman or give her claws and a whip.
Regardless. Violation of comic book origins again. Which people like you always hold for.

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But she is a thief, a social climber, very sane and romantically involved with Batman without it being a message about male domination of feminine independence (not that there is anything wrong with that theme).
I don't see her role in the movie as a message of male domination of feminine independence. Yes, it's the context of her transformation. But what's really interesting is how she struggles between her two personalities. Catwoman is entertaining, show stealing.

This subject raised in the comic books. Nothing wrong about it. But why do you keep mentioning that in negative light?

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She is both foe to Batman (did people really miss when she betrayed him, reluctantly or not?) and friend (the ending).
Catwoman's psychology and motivation is nicely carved in Batman Returns. She fits Burton's Gotham perfectly. Unfortunately, Anne's Catwoman has some issues with her cat part.

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It is pretty much how the character has been presented on the page for 30 years.
Yeah, that's why you just ignore previous 30 years of Catwoman on the page?

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Sure she has a cowl, claws and is played amazingly by Pffeifer, but let's not pretend it is remotely similar to the comics..
Jeez, why don't you check the article about Burton's Catwoman comic book origins already? It's useless to talk to a person who has no idea what he's talking about...

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I likely prefer the Hathaway one because of fidelity and also because I like the dynamic of Batman and Catwoman being allies instead of her being a generic villain. But I can see the appeal of the other.
She's anything but generic.

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Also, yes, I realize she let go of the bird. It is called hyperbole.
No, it's called twisting the fact.

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Old 03-12-2013, 01:21 AM   #254
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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Catwoman is entertaining, show stealing.
I can't say I agree with this statement at all.

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Old 03-12-2013, 02:13 AM   #255
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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Numerous of the supposed "inspirations" were taken from comics released after the movie. How can Burton draw inspiration from them when it never existed whilst the movie was being made?

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Old 03-12-2013, 04:37 AM   #256
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Numerous of the supposed "inspirations" were taken from comics released after the movie. How can Burton draw inspiration from them when it never existed whilst the movie was being made?
Some of them are inspirations, other - just parallels. The movies inspire comic books just as comic books inspire movies.


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Old 03-12-2013, 05:08 AM   #257
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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I actually am completely fine with Selina in BR, because it is a Burton film and has little to do with the comics (i.e. Batman kills, Penguin is a deformed freak raised by super-intelligent penguins in the sewers, Catwoman has 9 lives, etc.).

But I will not pretend there is a false equivalency. The changes Nolan made were mostly superficial. He does not call her Catwoman or give her claws and a whip. But she is a thief, a social climber, very sane and romantically involved with Batman without it being a message about male domination of feminine independence (not that there is anything wrong with that theme). She is both foe to Batman (did people really miss when she betrayed him, reluctantly or not?) and friend (the ending). It is pretty much how the character has been presented on the page for 30 years.

Pffeifer plays a great Burton character. But she has supernatural powers, is psychotic and is a product of German Expresionism in that the level of her sanity and self-control is correspondent with the level of damage and wholeness of her costume. Sure she has a cowl, claws and is played amazingly by Pffeifer, but let's not pretend it is remotely similar to the comics..

I likely prefer the Hathaway one because of fidelity and also because I like the dynamic of Batman and Catwoman being allies instead of her being a generic villain. But I can see the appeal of the other.
Actually, in considering the details, neither are particularly faithful to the comics. The difference is that Burton seems to have taken the comicbook Catwoman as a starting point, analysed her qualities and her appeal, and extrapolated on them in order to create a character who is divergent to a degree but really embellishes elements that are already there. This is roughly the same approach that Nolan appears to have taken with The Joker, and that is probably why The Joker was the most successful aspect of his whole trilogy.

By comparison, Hathaway's Selina Kyle has the feel of a character that is reverse-engineered. I do not sense any real affection or understanding of her in the script. I can imagine the discussion where Nolan et al realised that they had to put another "name" into the script, and then tried to work out how much of its "comic-booky" quality they could junk. The result is inexplicably bland. It has some elements in common with Catwoman, sure, but were she in some sort of crossover movie you might well not realise who she is meant to be. Your conclusion might be "Catwoman rip-off", at the strongest.

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Also, yes, I realize she let go of the bird. It is called hyperbole.
Or misrepresentation.

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Old 03-12-2013, 11:14 AM   #258
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Actually, in considering the details, neither are particularly faithful to the comics. The difference is that Burton seems to have taken the comicbook Catwoman as a starting point, analysed her qualities and her appeal, and extrapolated on them in order to create a character who is divergent to a degree but really embellishes elements that are already there. This is roughly the same approach that Nolan appears to have taken with The Joker, and that is probably why The Joker was the most successful aspect of his whole trilogy.

By comparison, Hathaway's Selina Kyle has the feel of a character that is reverse-engineered. I do not sense any real affection or understanding of her in the script. I can imagine the discussion where Nolan et al realised that they had to put another "name" into the script, and then tried to work out how much of its "comic-booky" quality they could junk. The result is inexplicably bland. It has some elements in common with Catwoman, sure, but were she in some sort of crossover movie you might well not realise who she is meant to be. Your conclusion might be "Catwoman rip-off", at the strongest.

Yup, nailed it. I completely agree with the first half or two.



Let's remember, Nolan even stated that he didn't really want Catwoman (or Bane for that matter) and it took some major convincing and strong arming to make him see (either from Goyer or Jonah Nolan, I can't remember which). He was nervous about including her.


So Burton took liberties? And? They all have. From Penguin to Bane (who were once innocent victims and are now sewer monsters beneath Gotham). So because the Returns Catwoman isn't a jewel thief and go getter it makes her less appealing?


The argument here seems to be based on "comic accuracy" and faithfulness. Like that's the draw for people that would pick one or the other. Well, both Hathaway and Pfeiffer are accurate to something since they're based on a character (or characters) that are 70+ years. Whether it's appearance or the way they're written. They're based on other works after all. Think of all the stories involving Catwoman. All the tales, all the earths (earth 1, earth 2, golden age, all that stuff). If that's how we're going to think, then how come most people don't prefer the Batman Forever Two-Face to the Dark Knight Two-Face? The Batman Forever one is "more" faithful and actually delves into duality compared to the Dark Knight one. But we all know WHY we'd pick TDK Harvey Two-Face over that zany, over the top gremlin, and it ain't about the comics. The best thing to do is look at the FILM each character resides in with their own merits, their own worlds. Not compare it to see where it stands on the comics meter. The comics aren't even faithful to themselves. Not with all the artists, writers, and other folks who come along and take their own liberties with the character. Hathaway Catwoman is born out of a few eariler comic interpretations as well as the 60s show. The Pfeiffer Catwoman was developed at a time of the 80s/90s, where the characters were growing a psychological edge. I remember the panels comparing Catwoman: Her sister's Keeper to Pfeiffer's Catwoman in the fantastic Batman Returns official guide book and it was pretty much dead on.



I really don't want to go on and on about Catwoman, because if I defend one, I might appear as though I like one over the other. That's really not the case because I like them both for different reasons. I think that's a cop out to say that the Returns version is just for "fun", that it was Burton, "having fun". I'd actually make that argument for TDKR Catwoman since that's exactly how I feel about it (and it seems that's the route Nolan went as well). Not that that's a bad thing. I don't really think it's that debatable to say the Returns version is more developed and "heavy". She actually has a pretty in-depth character arc from lowly secretary Selina Kyle, to Selina Kyle as Catwoman and even beyond that. We see her even past that. We also see her duality and the juxtaposition with Bruce Wayne/Batman. Does the Hathaway Catwoman really have that? Yeah, we get trivial on "birds" and "supernatural zombies" (if Selina is a zombie in Returns, then the Walking Dead must have it all wrong), but atleast her characterization isn't based entirely on it. It's certainly no magical "clean slate" flash drive USB BS. Is it?


But see, as I start to defend that Returns Catwoman is "something more", I detract from the Rises Catwoman that I think is equally great, for different reasons. Since the Returns versions seems to be written off easily though, I do find it easier to seem to want and defend it. That and the majority of votes that favor the Rises version. But I digress.



So because TDKR Catwoman is a jewel thief looking for a clean slate, that puts her ahead of the Returns Catwoman whose character is a decent woman that experienced a grave injustice and a personal trauma that makes her become more independent and empowered? That doesn't seem to be too fair to me. That's like saying they're both subpar and "fun" because they're not prostitutes like the Year One, Dark Knight Returns, 80s/90s Catwoman. Or that they weren't a flight stewardess that developed amnesia or something. That's stupid.



Like I said, what one has, the other doesn't and at the same time, there's a similarity between the two of them. It's actually very close to the Nicholson and Ledger Joker (except reversed), which are both great as well in my opinion. I'd say Ledger's Joker is much "deeper" with his ideologies and what he's trying to achieve (or not achieve), like Pfeiffer Catwoman. There's something to bite into there beyond "homicidal artist that is obsessed with vanity and murder and hates Batman" (Nicholson Joker) and "jewel thief with a heart, working her way up and pursuing a clean slate" (Hathaway Catwoman).




I can see having preferences (for various reasons), we all have them for the most part. But I just can't see how anyone that's a fan of Batman would be biased towards one or the other so vehemently. It should be Hathaway and Pfeiffer or Nicholson and Ledger or Bale and Keaton. Not vs. vs. vs. against, against, against. Not when the characters are as old as they are. I mean think about it, we do this stuff now? What happens when there's a third film Batman? A third film Joker? A third film Catwoman? (or 4th if the 60s show is something you'd include and resonate with)


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Old 03-12-2013, 01:48 PM   #259
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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Let's remember, Nolan even stated that he didn't really want Catwoman (or Bane for that matter) and it took some major convincing and strong arming to make him see (either from Goyer or Jonah Nolan, I can't remember which). He was nervous about including her.
I knew about Jonah Nolan pushing for Catwoman to be included and having to convince Chris to use her, but I never heard of him needing any convincing to use Bane.

Where did you hear that?

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Old 03-12-2013, 02:02 PM   #260
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

I could be wrong, but I don't remember Christopher Nolan not wanting Bane, but I believe he was unfamiliar with the character. I did hear that he needed convincing to use Catwoman though

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Old 03-12-2013, 04:54 PM   #261
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I think Goyer made a comment on the TDKR Blu-ray extras about how Nolan kind of made a face or something when Goyer initially brought up Bane, but my guess is that was some of the residual effect of B&R and Nolan not being too up to date on the comics version of Bane. I don't think Nolan had a specific idea for which villain he wanted to use, so it was always going to be a matter of just educating and convincing him. He told Goyer that he wanted a physical villain this time around, but pretty much left it up to him to figure out who the best candidates would be.

In the case of Catwoman, it was different because he was more aware of her and wasn't sure if she'd be able to work in the world he'd established. I think more than anything Nolan just didn't want it to feel like he was tacking on characters due to their popularity and wanted to make sure the story was flowing as organically as possible.

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Old 03-12-2013, 05:14 PM   #262
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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I think Goyer made a comment on the TDKR Blu-ray extras about how Nolan kind of made a face or something when Goyer initially brought up Bane, but my guess is that was some of the residual effect of B&R and Nolan not being too up to date on the comics version of Bane. I don't think Nolan had a specific idea for which villain he wanted to use, so it was always going to be a matter of just educating and convincing him. He told Goyer that he wanted a physical villain this time around, but pretty much left it up to him to figure out who the best candidates would be.

In the case of Catwoman, it was different because he was more aware of her and wasn't sure if she'd be able to work in the world he'd established. I think more than anything Nolan just didn't want it to feel like he was tacking on characters due to their popularity and wanted to make sure the story was flowing as organically as possible.
I never understood why Nolan felt Catwoman wouldn't naturally work in his Gotham. She's a cat-burglar with a shade of grey when you break her down to the lowest common denominator. And on top of that, she's one of the more grounded "freak" villains. Also, if you look at how every comicbook film just has to have a love interest, adding Selina Kyle is natural because she is a legit villain from the source material and presents a lot of juicy material and character interactions with Bruce/Batman.

I'm grateful Jonah was able to convince Chris to put her in the film.

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Old 03-12-2013, 05:24 PM   #263
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

Catwoman is easier to incorporate into Nolan's world than Ra's, Joker, Two-Face or Bane are. They're far more OTT than she is.

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Old 03-12-2013, 05:25 PM   #264
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I think perhaps Nolan just didn't instantly have a "take" if you will, on how to do Catwoman in a way that was both reverent to the source material but also wasn't merely repeating what had come before. Maybe not necessarily an issue of realism but more of just how to re-imagine her in a fresh way, like they had done so effortlessly with The Joker.

Thankfully Jonah did have a take. And I think he had to convince not only his brother, but Goyer too. Goyer didn't seem terribly keen on using Catwoman either if you look back to post TDK interviews.

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Old 03-12-2013, 05:34 PM   #265
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To me, though, the result felt compromised.

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Old 03-12-2013, 05:53 PM   #266
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Chris wanted Talia.
Jonah wanted Catwoman.
David wanted Bane.

That seems to be what was pretty much going on and they all agree to use the people they wanted, but I wonder if Chris had anyone else in mind besides just Talia al Ghul.

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Old 03-12-2013, 06:35 PM   #267
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Chris wanted Talia.
Jonah wanted Catwoman.
David wanted Bane.

That seems to be what was pretty much going on and they all agree to use the people they wanted, but I wonder if Chris had anyone else in mind besides just Talia al Ghul.
So who can I blame for wanting a version of Robin in the form of John Blake?


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Old 03-12-2013, 06:37 PM   #268
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I knew about Jonah Nolan pushing for Catwoman to be included and having to convince Chris to use her, but I never heard of him needing any convincing to use Bane.

Where did you hear that?


Here, I got it. It's in the screen play book and blu ray documentary too I believe. Goyer mentioned/wanted Bane and Nolan wasn't so sure.

For Catwoman it was Jonah, that was the one Nolan almost didn't include.



http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2...k-knight-rises


I know there are other articles, I'm gonna go look.

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Old 03-12-2013, 06:41 PM   #269
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Here, I got it. It's in the screen play book and blu ray documentary too I believe. Goyer mentioned/wanted Bane and Nolan wasn't so sure.

For Catwoman it was Jonah, that was the one Nolan almost didn't include.



http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2...k-knight-rises


I know there are other articles, I'm gonna go look.
No wonder Rises came off sloppy, it seems like Nolan had no idea where to start; villain-wise.

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Old 03-12-2013, 07:04 PM   #270
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Here, I got it. It's in the screen play book and blu ray documentary too I believe. Goyer mentioned/wanted Bane and Nolan wasn't so sure.

For Catwoman it was Jonah, that was the one Nolan almost didn't include.



http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2...k-knight-rises


I know there are other articles, I'm gonna go look.
Bloody hell! Well it certainly helps explain why there was not the same feeling of passion in the story in TDKR that there was in BB and TDK.

Thanks for showing us that.

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Old 03-12-2013, 10:45 PM   #271
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I viewed it as Gordon trying to bring down the "big baddie" when Batman was not going to be around to help.
That and he was probably on morphine, impairing his judgement.

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Old 03-12-2013, 11:14 PM   #272
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What I find really funny, is that the fact that Batman kills actually makes him much more believable, than Nolan's one. And, by the way, he kills. He had to kill (or make other do the dirty work). Nolan's Batman had so many issues with this no-kill policy. But back to Catwoman. Burton's Catwoman has A LOT to do with the comics. Proof in the link above.



Regardless. Violation of comic book origins again. Which people like you always hold for.



I don't see her role in the movie as a message of male domination of feminine independence. Yes, it's the context of her transformation. But what's really interesting is how she struggles between her two personalities. Catwoman is entertaining, show stealing.

This subject raised in the comic books. Nothing wrong about it. But why do you keep mentioning that in negative light?



Catwoman's psychology and motivation is nicely carved in Batman Returns. She fits Burton's Gotham perfectly. Unfortunately, Anne's Catwoman has some issues with her cat part.



Yeah, that's why you just ignore previous 30 years of Catwoman on the page?



Jeez, why don't you check the article about Burton's Catwoman comic book origins already? It's useless to talk to a person who has no idea what he's talking about...



She's anything but generic.



No, it's called twisting the fact.

I read your article. It makes a few good points, but if you want to talk about twisting facts, which I really wasn't (she PUT. A BIRD. IN HER MOUTH.), let's consider trying to argue that since Catwoman regretted her criminal ways as a middle class pet store owner in the 1950s that it is similar to the Selina Kyle who has a mental breakdown, arguably has some sort of mental disorder and, yes, WAS RESURRECTED BY CATS AND HAS NINE LIVES. That is not twisting a fact, that is performing some high level gymnastics with it.

Still, it should not matter if you prefer Burton's vision. I am not a strict proponent for comic book fidelity. However, I do prefer a Selina who is written as a sane, self-composed master thief who is morally ambiguous. I just really like that character who is relatively rare in superhero films where love interests are wholly good or vamping it up and appreciated seeing it onscreen this time.

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Old 03-12-2013, 11:20 PM   #273
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I knew about Jonah Nolan pushing for Catwoman to be included and having to convince Chris to use her, but I never heard of him needing any convincing to use Bane.

Where did you hear that?
I think Goyer pitched the idea when Nolan asked for a physically imposing villain with mental prowess. Likely when Goyer said Bane Nolan may have thought of Bane in Batman & Robin, or The Animated Series (Paul Dini famously hates the character) or pretty much any iteration after Knightfall. And in all honesty if Nolan had even glanced at Knightfall before 2009, he might have written Bane off due to his WWF demeanor.

I imagine he wanted a physically imposing mastermind and once Goyer said Bane was the best choice, the Nolans pretty much redesigned him from the ground up. Christ got rid of the wrestling appearance and Jonah gave him a very historical grounding.

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Old 03-12-2013, 11:24 PM   #274
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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Catwoman is easier to incorporate into Nolan's world than Ra's, Joker, Two-Face or Bane are. They're far more OTT than she is.
I would say she is no more or less than Joker. But the rest all take a leap, even if it is just accepting Dent would still be alive and truly give in to hate and anger after the burn. I always thought she was an obvious choice for the third film as well. When people dismissed it, I always thought it was because they had the Pffeifer version in their heads. Strange to hear Nolan also felt that way.

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Old 03-12-2013, 11:46 PM   #275
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Default Re: Anne Hathaway vs Michelle Pfeiffer

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I would say she is no more or less than Joker.
Yeah a no name psychopath with bleached skin and green hair is the same as a normal woman in a skin tight suit.

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