The TDKR General Discussion Thread - - - - - - - - - - - - Part 144

[milost]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

Bruce sneaking in without anybody recognizing him would be like Bill Gates hoping on one of those trucks. Maybe, you'll say, he snuck INSIDE a truck (climbing in, hanging on the bottom, etc). Maybe. But that wasn't in the movie. So we can just speculate.

You actually just reminded me of something that I can't believe I never noticed before.



How the heck did people not recognize Bruce Wayne in Italy? Especially when he must be going at the same spot (which inhabit tons of tourists) almost every day!?! It's not like he disguised himself.


LOL

[Eggyman]

Originally Posted by milost

You actually just reminded me of something that I can't believe I never noticed before.



How the heck did people not recognize Bruce Wayne in Italy? Especially when he must be going at the same spot (which inhabit tons of tourists) almost every day!?! It's not like he disguised himself.


LOL

Maybe none of the tourists were orphans.

[The Joker]

Originally Posted by Eggyman

Maybe none of the tourists were orphans.

[Brain Damage]

Originally Posted by Anno_Domini

There isn't a point for me to "argue" about it, but there's no argument between us, lol; we're just sharing viewpoints.

I didn't mean arguing in the hostile sense, just in the debating opinions sense

And what exactly do you mean about reaching the country on ice?

Not the country, I mean, if he walked across the ice into the city, don't you think someone would have noticed? The media was keeping constant footage of outside the city, and someone walking through a giant sheet of white ice is preeetty noticeable. Unless you wanna tell me Bruce got a snowcamo outfit somewhere

Plus...in BB, no one notices Bruce Wayne in a hoodie, so how would it be so easy for Bruce to be noticeable if he hopped unto a supply truck?

Fair point, but still not good enough for me. Those spec ops guys weren't doing anything to hide their faces. Chances are if one of them was wearing a hoodie or just trying not to let anyone get a good look at them, Bane's men would get suspicious and investigate him. I don't know this for sure (as the thugs in these movies have always been of the very dumb variety), but I base it on having watched many movies where a truck carrying unwanted people has to get past a barricade.

It's not lazy writing by no means...just the kind of writing that doesn't explain everything and while that's what makes it odd for a Nolan film that has plenty of exposition dialogue, TDKR is, as a whole film, that carries more subtle moments than exposition. But, that's still not lazy writing, just different for a Nolan film.

Not explaining everything is totally fine. But some things you HAVE to explain, specifically when you set them up. You can't just set up a city where no one can get in or out and then have a character find a way in off screen. That's lazy writing and I don't get how you can't see this. Seeing Bruce use all of his training and knowledge to sneak in would have been amazing, but instead Nolan just pops him in there like he's freaking Nightcrawler.

Just because we know he CAN do it doesn't mean we don't need to see HOW he does it. Otherwise, what's the point of seeing anything? We all know Batman is going to win in the end, so why even have a final battle? Why not just have Alfred watching TV somewhere and he looks up and the news say "Batman flies bomb out of Gotham". It's set up plenty that Batman has the training necessary to fly the Bat, and we can assume that means he can get a bomb out of Gotham (just like we can assume his ninja training means he can sneak into the city), but does that mean we shouldn't see it happen?

[milost]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

Just because we know he CAN do it doesn't mean we don't need to see HOW he does it. Otherwise, what's the point of seeing anything? We all know Batman is going to win in the end, so why even have a final battle?

Yeah, agreed.

That's the same exact problem that I have with the beginning of the film with the Dent lie and 8 years later. How did that even work. Sure, it could, it did, evidently with those 8 years there's a history there. But how did it? You don't just gloss over such important things that YOU thought up and is the basis for the film in general. How did it work!?!

"It just did, focus on mopey Bruce, the clean project orb and this dude with the weird mask."


Oh, alright. Way to write yourself out of that one.

[BatLobsterRises]

More like way to not spend half your film tying up all the little peripheral loose ends from the last film.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Brain Damage

I didn't mean arguing in the hostile sense, just in the debating opinions sense

Ahh, okay...but you're saying we shouldn't debate then? It's fun sometimes, lol.

Not the country, I mean, if he walked across the ice into the city, don't you think someone would have noticed? The media was keeping constant footage of outside the city, and someone walking through a giant sheet of white ice is preeetty noticeable. Unless you wanna tell me Bruce got a snowcamo outfit somewhere

I don't think Bruce did walk over the ice to get to where the "martial law" Gotham is at.

Fair point, but still not good enough for me. Those spec ops guys weren't doing anything to hide their faces. Chances are if one of them was wearing a hoodie or just trying not to let anyone get a good look at them, Bane's men would get suspicious and investigate him. I don't know this for sure (as the thugs in these movies have always been of the very dumb variety), but I base it on having watched many movies where a truck carrying unwanted people has to get past a barricade.

You make a fair point as well, but I don't buy that. As you said, the thugs in these three films are of the "dumb variety" and Bruce could easily get past them. I believe this is what happens:

Bruce finds his way into the country, makes his way to Wayne Manor then finds a way unto that bridge that takes him into that area of Gotham City.

Not explaining everything is totally fine. But some things you HAVE to explain, specifically when you set them up. You can't just set up a city where no one can get in or out and then have a character find a way in off screen. That's lazy writing and I don't get how you can't see this. Seeing Bruce use all of his training and knowledge to sneak in would have been amazing, but instead Nolan just pops him in there like he's freaking Nightcrawler.

Just because we know he CAN do it doesn't mean we don't need to see HOW he does it. Otherwise, what's the point of seeing anything? We all know Batman is going to win in the end, so why even have a final battle? Why not just have Alfred watching TV somewhere and he looks up and the news say "Batman flies bomb out of Gotham". It's set up plenty that Batman has the training necessary to fly the Bat, and we can assume that means he can get a bomb out of Gotham (just like we can assume his ninja training means he can sneak into the city), but does that mean we shouldn't see it happen?

I agree it would be nice to show it, I have never stated otherwise, but with what Nolan wanted to show to fit into time restraints, it's easy to use your imagination when A.) You know of Bruce's past training, and B.) We see how some people got into that part of Gotham earlier in the film.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by BatLobsterRises

More like way to not spend half your film tying up all the little peripheral loose ends from the last film.

Or making sure everything's in place so it doesn't seem like a retcon to some.

[Anita18]

Seriously guys. I don't think even people got this up in arms over Joker sneaking barrels of explosives into a damn hospital.

[Kane52630]

You can look at literally every film known to man and find issues with it. It's like scratching a wound, it only gets worse so why even do it?

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Anita18

Seriously guys. I don't think even people got this up in arms over Joker sneaking barrels of explosives into a damn hospital.

I'm guilty for bringing that up though whenever someone mentions the "plot holes" surrounding TDKR that doesn't even seem like actual plot holes, lol.

[Infinity9999x]

Yeah. Honestly, I had more issues with Blake's "deduction" of Wayne as Bats, and the fact that Talia...AS A SMALL CHILD, could make a jump that apparently grown men couldn't...because she was afraid. I'm sorry, but if I scare the crap out of my 9 year old little brother, the little guy isn't going to turn into a world-class long jumper. That's just not how that works.

[milost]

Originally Posted by Infinity9999x

Yeah. Honestly, I had more issues with Blake's "deduction" of Wayne as Bats, and the fact that Talia...AS A SMALL CHILD, could make a jump that apparently grown men couldn't...because she was afraid. I'm sorry, but if I scare the crap out of my 9 year old little brother, the little guy isn't going to turn into a world-class long jumper. That's just not how that works.

Actually, I think everyone is capable of making the jump, even if they're not athletes or physically fit. Peter Griffin could have made the jump.


You just have to be smart enough to not jump with a rope that will hold you back and bring you back down, which clearly, our hero wasn't even smart enough to do.

[Infinity9999x]

Originally Posted by milost

Actually, I think everyone is capable of making the jump, even if they're not athletes or physically fit. Peter Griffin could have made the jump.


You just have to be smart enough to not jump with a rope that will hold you back and bring you back down, which clearly, our hero wasn't even smart enough to do.

Haha, yeah I've heard that argument, but I don't think the rope was ever holding anyone back. It was pretty clear that the message was "use your fear to help you make the jump." Which is a cool sentiment and all, but it comes back down to the fact that if a 10 year old malnurished kid can make the jump, it's not going to be all that hard for a full grown man.

[milost]

I think it would have been more powerful (and appropriate) if the pit was inescapable and that the only way you could escape is if you were saved.

Even though I hate the LoS, Talia and Bane in this film, if you had to use them it might have been better to have Ra's find them and pull them out then later on, have . . . Alfred come back and help him out and actually DO something instead of crying and doubting Bruce Wayne.

Then it would REALLY be appropriate, especially with the Thomas Wayne/well scene in Batman Begins. Sure, you wouldn't have the uplifting "bats" moment where they come flying out of the wall, but I'm sure you could fit that moment somewhere else in the film.




The "rules" of the pit as it stands in the film are ridiculous in my opinion. The only positive about if is the feeling you get when Bruce escapes it. As soon as you think about it though (like most things in this movie) and find out that a little, starving girl made it out, it falls apart.

[JDonaldD]

In all honesty, it didn't bug me that it was never explained how Bruce got back into Gotham. It was only when everyone else brought it up did I start to wonder. For me, the "he's Batman" explanation works because we've seen him do stuff like this before. I think Luscious making a joke about Bruce being lucky Wayne Manor is outside of Gotham's city limits when they go to the Bat bunker would have been nice but it doesn't really bother me.

My only hang up with the movie is why would Bruce lie to Selina and Gordon about the autopilot. That is just kinda lazy writing. There are so many ways to achieve the ending they wanted that didn't involve Batman outright lying to the audience to achieve the reveal that he lived.

[Travesty]

Originally Posted by JDonaldD

My only hang up with the movie is why would Bruce lie to Selina and Gordon about the autopilot. That is just kinda lazy writing. There are so many ways to achieve the ending they wanted that didn't involve Batman outright lying to the audience to achieve the reveal that he lived.

[JackWhite]

Bruce had to climb out by himself. The whole point is he's at his absolute lowest, with nothing but his sheer will and determination to get him through. Having Alfred show up and save him would have undermined all of that.

[Infinity9999x]

Originally Posted by JackWhite

Bruce had to climb out by himself. The whole point is he's at his absolute lowest, with nothing but his sheer will and determination to get him through. Having Alfred show up and save him would have undermined all of that.

I'm okay with him climbing out. But the fact that a 10 year old kid that grew up in a pit did it kind of underminds all the will and determination it took Bruce to do it.

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by milost

You actually just reminded me of something that I can't believe I never noticed before.



How the heck did people not recognize Bruce Wayne in Italy? Especially when he must be going at the same spot (which inhabit tons of tourists) almost every day!?! It's not like he disguised himself.


LOL

I'm european and i honestly don't know any American playboy millionaire.

I dont know if its something patriotic about yourselves that think the world knows every US citizen but i gotta say , maybe with a little regret...we don't ! Not even the ones from my country.

[Infinity9999x]

Originally Posted by Tequilla

I'm european and i honestly don't know any American playboy millionaire.

I dont know if its something patriotic about yourselves that think the world knows every US citizen but i gotta say , maybe with a little regret...we don't ! Not even the ones from my country.

So you wouldn't recognize Justin Timberlake, Michael Jordan, or Kobe Bryant?

In seriousness though, I agree with you. Even if Bruce Wayne was supposed to be as famous as someone like Michael Jordan (which I don't think he was), if it was accepted that Michael Jordan was dead, and I was walking through a random street in Paris and though I saw someone who looked just like him, I'm probably just think "wow, that guy looks just like Michael Jordan" and keep walking.

[Anno_Domini]

Originally Posted by Infinity9999x

I'm okay with him climbing out. But the fact that a 10 year old kid that grew up in a pit did it kind of underminds all the will and determination it took Bruce to do it.

It only works thematically with the idea that the "fear has to find you". If there wasn't a theme to back it up, I would have groaned at the sight of a child making the jump and not an adult.

[Tequilla]

Originally Posted by Infinity9999x

So you wouldn't recognize Justin Timberlake, Michael Jordan, or Kobe Bryant?

In seriousness though, I agree with you. Even if Bruce Wayne was supposed to be as famous as someone like Michael Jordan (which I don't think he was), if it was accepted that Michael Jordan was dead, and I was walking through a random street in Paris and though I saw someone who looked just like him, I'm probably just think "wow, that guy looks just like Michael Jordan" and keep walking.

MJ was my idol when i was young so.....

Those guys i would know. But they are famous people and work within industries i follow (justin because of films , nba has always been huge in europe and im kinda crazy about sports... ) . They are not playboy millionaires (well they probably were that too lol ) . But if instead of kobe , you would put right in front of me the most famous baseball , hockey or american football player , i wouldn't know them. Much less rich people.

[milost]

Alright, we've seen Bruce Wayne compared to Paris Hilton, Donald Trump and Bill Gates. He's practically a celebrity, the prince of Gotham. We've all been in those discussions where people claim that "playboy" Bruce is like Paris Hilton. Instead of daddies hotels though, it's daddies company. He has deals and is known as far out as Hong Kong.

So you're telling me, if the three I mentioned, were on an extensive vacation in Florence, Italy (that has tons of tourists from all over the world mind you), they'd never be known? Okay, let's just rule out the Italy's citizens for you Tequilla, that's fair enough, how about all those tourists from America that are in Italy? Are you kidding? None of them would recognize Bruce?


Now Bruce isn't just there for a day or so. If he was, that'd be fine. But for this to work, he'd have to be there constantly to ever fulfill Alfred's dream and get a chance to meet up with him (which is why it's joked about so often). Just like Alfred had supposedly done. You're telling me that people would never notice him? I mean, it's not like they'd be like, "oh, that's Bruce Wayne vacationing", no, hahahaha, Bruce Wayne is DEAD!

[Tequilla]

Nolan's movies never state anything remotely like that regarding his character and how well known he's in the worl. He's a known millionaire in a us city. The prince of Gotham. Outside of Ra's , we never see anyone recognizing him in Begins outside US.

And i had no idea who the hell was Paris Hilton until i saw that bad sex tape.

There is certainly very rich and young people in chicago , new york , florida , beijing , paris , whatever...i have no idea who they are.