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Old 03-10-2013, 10:42 PM   #76
Anno_Domini
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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Originally Posted by Brain Damage View Post
A fact that greatly saddens me. It seems, rather than cut whole scenes out, Nolan opted to cut out little bits from almost every scene. The result, as you said, is a distinct lack of breathing room.

I still haven't forgiven him for the things he cut out of the scene where Alfred confesses about the letter
He didn't cut that much out between the Bruce/Alfred dialogue. The part where Alfred talks about how he failed Bruce's parents with trusting him to Alfred, Bruce kept saying "You lied!" about Alfred bringing up Rachel chose Dent, which...that didn't seem like something Bruce should have said anyways as the scene had a very quiet tone with these two going back and forth. If Bruce had actually said something better without yelling, then Alfred's line should have stayed.

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I expected Bane and Selina to have a few scenes together. This could have happened if the second act was restructured. Selina was extremely non-existent there.
I agree that Selina should've received more time during the second act, but not with Bane, imo. Selina makes her "peace" by evening things out where the League won't go after her anymore, so she wasn't needed anymore while Bane just sat back and waited for the end of it all. But I do like that he did takes time to watch the "court proceedings" as well as taking out the Special Forces members.

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Dude, while I love those scenes with Bruce and Alfred, the scenes where Bruce puts the leg brace on
The only thing missing out on that was Bruce putting the brace on the other leg to calculate the good leg's muscles and what have you so it could fix his bad leg(as mentioned by Bruce to Alfred when he tells Bruce he put it on the wrong leg, lol). While a nice explanation, that would've add more to Nolan just having exposition dialogue for the hell of it.

Quote:
I remember a few lines that were cut out - Bruce mentioning he failed as Bruce and Alfred replying with you can afford to fail as Bruce Wayne, but as Batman you can't afford to.
I don't remember this. Is it in the script?

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Old 03-10-2013, 10:51 PM   #77
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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He didn't cut that much out between the Bruce/Alfred dialogue. The part where Alfred talks about how he failed Bruce's parents with trusting him to Alfred, Bruce kept saying "You lied!" about Alfred bringing up Rachel chose Dent, which...that didn't seem like something Bruce should have said anyways as the scene had a very quiet tone with these two going back and forth. If Bruce had actually said something better without yelling, then Alfred's line should have stayed.
While I agree that the "You lied!" line wasn't exactly A-material writing, just because it has an exclamation point doesn't mean it has to be yelled.

A good actor (like Bale) could deliver that line in a number of ways. A lot of intensity can be displayed through a quiet tone, and I'm certain both Bale and Nolan would have advocated for that sort of delivery.

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Old 03-10-2013, 10:57 PM   #78
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

To add.

ALFRED
And what if, to spare you
pain...Iíd burned that letter?

Wayne stares at Alfred, shocked.

WAYNE
Why would you say such a thing?

ALFRED
Because I have to make you
understand.

WAYNE
Youíre lying.

ALFRED
Because you are as precious to me
as you were to your own mother and
father and I swore to them that I
would protect you and I
havenít
.
WAYNE
Youíre lying!

ALFRED
Iíve never lied to you. Except when
I burned Rachelís letter.

Wayne turns on the old man, furious.
WAYNE
How dare you use Rachel to stop me!

This is the major bit that was cut out, and other than the "Except when I burned Rachel's letter" line, I think it was the best part of the scene.


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Old 03-10-2013, 11:01 PM   #79
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

I'm perfectly fine with what's left out. And besides the 'trust' remark is stated at the end of TDKR anyways when he's talking to the tombstones of Thomas and Martha. That always felt enough.


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Old 03-10-2013, 11:06 PM   #80
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain Damage View Post
To add.

ALFRED
And what if, to spare you
pain...Iíd burned that letter?

Wayne stares at Alfred, shocked.

WAYNE
Why would you say such a thing?

ALFRED
Because I have to make you
understand.

WAYNE
Youíre lying.

ALFRED
Because you are as precious to me
as you were to your own mother and
father and I swore to them that I
would protect you and I
havenít
.
WAYNE
Youíre lying!

ALFRED
Iíve never lied to you. Except when
I burned Rachelís letter.

Wayne turns on the old man, furious.
WAYNE
How dare you use Rachel to stop me!

This is the major bit that was cut out, and other than the "Except when I burned Rachel's letter" line, I think it was the best part of the scene.

Ahhh so that's where that infamous cut line from the trailer fit in. They should have left all of that in.

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Old 03-10-2013, 11:23 PM   #81
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

Quote:
Originally Posted by Brain Damage View Post
To add.

ALFRED
And what if, to spare you
pain...Iíd burned that letter?

Wayne stares at Alfred, shocked.

WAYNE
Why would you say such a thing?

ALFRED
Because I have to make you
understand.

WAYNE
Youíre lying.

ALFRED
Because you are as precious to me
as you were to your own mother and
father and I swore to them that I
would protect you and I
havenít
.
WAYNE
Youíre lying!

ALFRED
Iíve never lied to you. Except when
I burned Rachelís letter.

Wayne turns on the old man, furious.
WAYNE
How dare you use Rachel to stop me!

This is the major bit that was cut out, and other than the "Except when I burned Rachel's letter" line, I think it was the best part of the scene.

I mostly wanted to hear Bruce say "You're lying" with a level of uncertainty in his voice.

Still, the whole part about failing as Bruce Wayne definitely should have been left in, IMO.

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Old 03-10-2013, 11:32 PM   #82
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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I'm perfectly fine with what's left out. And besides the 'trust' remark is stated at the end of TDKR anyways when he's talking to the tombstones of Thomas and Martha. That always felt enough.
I'm happy that it worked for you, but for me that scene felt critically short. It had started and then it was over, I much prefer Bruce actually needing a little bit to process what Alfred is telling him, rather than just jumping to the "How dare you use Rachel..." bit.

But that brings me to another problem with the film. Alfred is gone and that's it. Other than Bruce's "Alfred?" immediately following his departure, he isn't brought up again until the final few minutes of the movie. That felt cheap. Surely Bruce needed to have some sort of long term reaction to the man who was arguably more of a father than his real father was.

Some might say that after Rachel died it was business as usual and the plot keeps moving. But her death permeates throughout the rest of that movie. Everything Dent does stems from her. So, the climax stems from her.

Same with Bruce's parents. Their absence is felt throughout all of Begins. Up to and including one of the last lines "I was wrong, you know. Your father would be proud of you."

Now, you might say that Rachel/Bruce's parents deaths aren't the same as Alfred leaving, but from a structure point, they're very similar. Namely, all of them have their "final scene" and then disappear for the rest of the movie. The only difference is Alfred is gets to come back for the last 5 minutes. And to me that wasn't enough. I was always fine with Alfred leaving Bruce (in fact I think it's a great plot idea), but the impact of his departure was hardly felt.

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Old 03-10-2013, 11:41 PM   #83
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

I'm not sure where Alfred could have been mentioned after his departure.

I'd like to say the pit, but Bruce had enough to deal with down there. With Rehabbing his body and trying to escape.

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Old 03-10-2013, 11:43 PM   #84
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

"You know....you remind me of my butler..." - Bruce to the old man that helped him out.

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Old 03-10-2013, 11:45 PM   #85
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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"You know....you remind me of my butler..." - Bruce to the old man that helped him out.
I could see Bruce having that realization, right before he makes his escape out of the pit.


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Old 03-10-2013, 11:48 PM   #86
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

"I hated my butler!"

But seriously. The results of Alfred leaving was a very missed opportunity for some serious character development.

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Old 03-10-2013, 11:49 PM   #87
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings



Bruce becomes Joker with his paranoia inside the Pit.

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Old 03-10-2013, 11:51 PM   #88
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Bruce becomes Joker with his paranoia inside the Pit.
Now THAT would have been a twist

M. Night Shyamalan eat your heart out.

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Old 03-11-2013, 12:12 AM   #89
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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I mostly wanted to hear Bruce say "You're lying" with a level of uncertainty in his voice.

Still, the whole part about failing as Bruce Wayne definitely should have been left in, IMO.
I'm glad the shouting wasn't in the scene. I love Bruce's quiet response.

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Old 03-11-2013, 12:15 AM   #90
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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I'm glad the shouting wasn't in the scene. I love Bruce's quiet response.
As I mentioned above, why do you assume it would have been shouted?

If anything, the one line that is scripted as being delivered with fury is the line Bale delivered quietly. So what makes you think he didn't keep that same vibe going?

If we ever see that footage (and there's about a 99.9% certainty it was shot), I guarantee you Bale was not yelling.

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Old 03-11-2013, 12:23 AM   #91
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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As I mentioned above, why do you assume it would have been shouted?
The exclamation mark and the fact that it is repeated. A bit presumptuous I suppose, but it's not a big deal.

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Old 03-11-2013, 12:28 AM   #92
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

What I'm wondering is, had Nolan kept Bane's little origin scene at the end, would that have made up for his "abrupt" sendoff?

At first I thought it would, but Selina's quip at the end would still bug me.

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Old 03-11-2013, 03:29 AM   #93
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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Plus, the way Catwoman kills Bane...it's as if "beauty kills the beast" in a way.
Good analogy.

I don't have an issue with the concept of Selina killing Bane - I was all for her recreating the Black Mask execution back in the day. Batpod cannons or not, it's cool to think this person who was in the shadows watching Bane deconstruct Batman in the sewers like a beast inflicted this upon him. It's a notch on her cat belt. Her quip got a good reaction in my showing. I like how Anne delivers it and uses her legs to get off the vehicle.

I do think the scene could have done with something extra though, a shot of Bane laying on the ground or him being pulled out of the building. It is quite abrupt as is.

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Old 03-11-2013, 12:22 PM   #94
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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Dude, while I love those scenes with Bruce and Alfred, the scenes where Bruce puts the leg brace on, and the scene where Alfred leaves, you just know that the IMAX limitations hindered those scenes, even if it were the slightest.

I remember a few lines that were cut out - Bruce mentioning he failed as Bruce and Alfred replying with you can afford to fail as Bruce Wayne, but as Batman you can't afford to.

I still love Nolan, but I'm almost wondering if he's letting, or let; his love for IMAX ruin his films. Classic case of style vs substance.
The line about failing as Bruce really should have remained. It's so little but really helps make it clear that Bruce didn't just give up after retiring Batman, that he tried to help Gotham as Bruce with the energy project and then failed at that too when realized he pretty much made a bomb. It's really tragic if you think about it. He made Batman and then had to give up and "fail" as Batman only to do the same thing as Bruce. That one little line would have done so much to infer what he's been going through for those 8 years.

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Old 03-11-2013, 12:27 PM   #95
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

And yet, I still found it pretty easily inferred without knowing that line existed.

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Old 03-11-2013, 12:35 PM   #96
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The exclamation mark and the fact that it is repeated. A bit presumptuous I suppose, but it's not a big deal.
Exactly. He repeats the same thing twice which, I don't know about anyone else, but it seems like Bruce's voice would only get louder since he's repeating himself. Never heard of someone being in an argument and saying the same thing twice in the same tone.

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What I'm wondering is, had Nolan kept Bane's little origin scene at the end, would that have made up for his "abrupt" sendoff?

At first I thought it would, but Selina's quip at the end would still bug me.
I don't think the extra couple of seconds would do anything as that's as long it would have been since it would fit in with Talia's speech regarding Bane. You still get Selina's quip and you still get nothing more as soon as he's blasted away.

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Good analogy.

I don't have an issue with the concept of Selina killing Bane - I was all for her recreating the Black Mask execution back in the day. Batpod cannons or not, it's cool to think this person who was in the shadows watching Bane deconstruct Batman in the sewers like a beast inflicted this upon him. It's a notch on her cat belt. Her quip got a good reaction in my showing. I like how Anne delivers it and uses her legs to get off the vehicle.

I do think the scene could have done with something extra though, a shot of Bane laying on the ground or him being pulled out of the building. It is quite abrupt as is.
I am very glad Selina was the one that blew Bane away as well; one of the moments during the trilogy that had me cheering even as this was needed since what Selina did earlier in the film. I just would ask for that quip to be cut out, though. Catwoman blasts Bane and then we move on to the next scene.

And the idea of showing Bane's dead body being dragged out of the building would be a sight to behold. Since Bane was this militant tyrant, it would just scream Saddam Hussein when his dead body was dragged as well.

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Old 03-11-2013, 01:30 PM   #97
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

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And yet, I still found it pretty easily inferred without knowing that line existed.
Totally agree. Those lines did not give us any information that couldn't be inferred from the acting and other lines. It was simply redundant information and I'm glad they cut it out.

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Old 03-11-2013, 03:45 PM   #98
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

Why do people have something against Catwoman's line? It was actually very funny and in-character. I thought it was a great moment for her.

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Old 03-11-2013, 07:08 PM   #99
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Why do people have something against Catwoman's line? It was actually very funny and in-character. I thought it was a great moment for her.
It was, but at the expense of Bane.

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Old 03-18-2013, 01:55 PM   #100
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Default Re: What Nolan does poorest. Villain Endings

Id go with Bane. Scarecrow's was crap, I'll give you that, but you at least got to see Batman make up for it in TDK. I honestly didn't believe that Bane died from the shot- when the heroes were talking about what to do with the bomb, I was expecting Bane to show back up and give us a glorious final fight.

Even when Alfred was giving his speech about Wayne's death, I was still kinda shocked thinking, "Did Nolan really have Bane go out like that?"

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