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Old 03-19-2013, 04:51 PM   #26
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Default Re: Luke Cage introduced in Avengers 2, Hulk blasted into space

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And I don't know where in the world you guys get Captain America being remotely in the same weight class with Luke Cage. Cage is practically class 100, and has been up there with She-Hulk, Thing and Colossus in terms of strength for some time.
The official strength ratings according to Marvel's website are:

She-Hulk: 7
Thing: 6
Colossus: 6
Luke Cage: 4 (equivalent to Spider-Man)
Captain America: 3

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Old 03-19-2013, 05:33 PM   #27
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I didn't say the justice system is just, I said that experimentation on prisoners where an outcome could be positive for the prisoner is illogical.

That a lot of people sitting in jail are saying they are innocent does not prove they are innocent. It does prove that our legal system is founded on a "innocent until proven guilty" and "guilt is proven beyond a shadow of a doubt." If the guilty can create doubt, then they are as innocent as OJ.

Would you mind providing a source for prisoner experimentations you are claiming to exist? I am not being combative, just curious.

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If Cage has had a history of incarceration, it wouldn't be hard to sell that he is wrongfully convicted and putting a black man in jail is, unfortunately, really easy in this country. If you want to make experimenting on prisoners "normal" that's fine, but to give a prisoner, i.e. someone you want to control, powers that makes them uncontrollable...well, that's dumb. A volunteer is the only way you can guarantee compliance. Prisoners are inherently non-compliant.

If AIM or HYDRA or some organization like that were running the prison, you could say they are looking for not-nice people as volunteers. If the prison was attempting to make a stable of villains and grabbed Cage, who was trying to turn his life around before his wrongful imprisonment, and they experimented on him with the understanding he would be a villain...that could work better but then you would need to explain all these minor villains running around as Cage wasn't the only one getting powers. Cage's innocence is eventually proven, he is released and forms Heroes for Hire and everyone lives happily ever after.

There is a giant assumption being made by the experimenter that Cage would be a villain based on his history. If you can get an audience to believe that, then experimenting on prisoners by an evil organization becomes believable. (This origin isn't much different than Blonsky/Abomination actually; giving a power to someone you think you can control until you cannot and they switch sides)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experim...n_on_prisoners (I was lucky, hadn't researched it before)

Honestly dude, it sounds like you're overcomplicating it. Evil organization runs prison... that naturally comes with experimentation on prisoners, empowered enforcers, good guys caught up in the system, and complex control systems that can be circumvented by various means. There's no need to establish "We think all these volunteers are compliant." EvilCo. says "if we find out they're not compliant, we just kill them." No muss no fuss. This is all stuff we've seen before.

Also, having others empowered like Cage adds a nice slice of awesome to the mix. In my mind, I had adapted the Wrecking Crew into Cage villains, empowered along with him, and he basically turns on them. Especially if AIM had some sort of Asgardian scrap of metal lying around that Wrecker could lead them to steal, all the more awesome. Regardless, evil criminals empowered is an opportunity, not a challenge.

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The official strength ratings according to Marvel's website are:

She-Hulk: 7
Thing: 6
Colossus: 6
Luke Cage: 4 (equivalent to Spider-Man)
Captain America: 3
Wow. I was so going by the fan ratings... and I'm so confused... cuz Luke Cage has been doing feats far beyond 25 tons like... forever. Fighting Sentry and Warbound and Dormammu-Hood and thunderclapping and... yeesh. A LOT. The official ratings are out of date on this character, or someone has a LOT of explaining to do.

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Old 03-19-2013, 05:48 PM   #28
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Default Re: Luke Cage introduced in Avengers 2, Hulk blasted into space

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Wow. I was so going by the fan ratings... and I'm so confused... cuz Luke Cage has been doing feats far beyond 25 tons like... forever. Fighting Sentry and Warbound and Dormammu-Hood and thunderclapping and... yeesh. A LOT. The official ratings are out of date on this character, or someone has a LOT of explaining to do.
Don't feel bad...the official ratings are still just basic guidelines, at best. The real ratings fluctuate from writer to writer, and even issue to issue.

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Old 03-19-2013, 05:56 PM   #29
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Wikipedia doesn't fly as a legitimate source.

I'm not overcomplicating anything. I am applying logic and realism. These films have to have an element of realism even if it is a work of fiction.

How do you kill PowerMan? The guys you give powers to need to be able to die with "no muss, no fuss" if they don't comply.

I like Wrecking Crew being the group created in the prison. That could work really well if they don't have another role to play in the MCU.

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Old 03-19-2013, 07:27 PM   #30
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Default Re: Luke Cage introduced in Avengers 2, Hulk blasted into space

Wikipedia's credibility doesn't really matter when they link their sources at the bottom.

As for killing Powerman... plastic explosives at base of the spine, or brainstem dissolving chemical, or even just the old fashioned million volts collar if tampered with.

The solutions you came up with: AIM running a prison, controlling empowered prisoners, Cage being assumed to be on the side of evil... that all seems very straightforward and easy to come up with. Realism on tap, basically.

Cage is trying to get back home to save his girl, and he has a hero's heart, he's going to be a trouble maker in prison and he's going to play along with whatever he thinks might get him out. AIM thinking he's going to be under their thumb kinda writes itself, I think.

The only fear I'd have is too much phlebotinum, if you got super bio science, super killchip tech AND scraps of Asgardian metal running around, that's a lot to ask, but it might be okay since AIM and Asgard are already established.

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Don't feel bad...the official ratings are still just basic guidelines, at best. The real ratings fluctuate from writer to writer, and even issue to issue.
That's true in most cases, but has anyone been using the official ratings as a guideline for Luke Cage? Certainly not Bendis.

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Old 03-20-2013, 07:34 AM   #31
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I don't think anything is wrong with Luke Cage comic origin its more cinematic and deeper than alot of other heroes.

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Born and raised in New York City's Harlem neighborhood, Lucas spends his youth in a gang called the Rivals. With his friend Willis Stryker, he fights the rival gang the Diablos and commits petty thefts, often on behalf of deformed crime lord Sonny Caputo, a.k.a. Hammer. In and out of juvenile homes throughout his teens, Lucas dreams of becoming a major New York racketeer until he finally realizes how his actions are hurting his family. He seeks to better himself as an adult by finding legitimate employment. Meanwhile, Stryker rises through the ranks of crime, but the two men remain friends. When Stryker's activities anger the Maggia (a.k.a. the Syndicate), he is badly beaten in a mob hit, saved only by Lucas' intervention. When Stryker's girlfriend, Reva Connors, breaks up with him in fear of his violent work, she seeks solace with Lucas. Stryker is convinced that Lucas is responsible for the breakup, so he plants heroin in Lucas' apartment and tips off the police. Lucas is arrested and sent to prison where contact with his family is sparse due to the resentment of his brother James, Jr., who intercepts Lucas' letters to their father James and eventually leads each to believe the other is dead.

In prison, Lucas is consumed by rage over Stryker's betrayal and his father's supposed death, engaging in frequent brawls and escape attempts. Eventually transferred to Seagate Prison off the coast of Georgia, he becomes the favorite target of sadistic guard Albert "Billy Bob" Rackham, whose brutality ultimately leads to a demotion that he blames on Lucas.

Later, research scientist Dr. Noah Burstein recruits Lucas as a volunteer for experimental cell regeneration based on a variant of the Super-Soldier process he had previously used to empower Captain America. Burstein immerses Lucas in an electrical field conducted by an organic chemical compound; when he leaves Lucas unattended, Rackham alters the experiment's controls, hoping to maim or kill Lucas. Lucas' treatment is accelerated past its intended limits, inducing body-wide enhancements that give him superhuman strength and durability. He uses his new power to escape Seagate and makes his way back to New York, where a chance encounter with criminals inspires him to use his new powers for profit.
The second half of the movie after cage escaped should be him tracking down Stryker who now works for crime lord bushmaster who has now taken over control of new yorks crime empire in an attempt to clear his name and get revenge all the while the cops as chasing him as a wanted man.

People often say Luke Cage being angry is a negative thing but it makes sense considering his origin. If you turned your life around only to have your best friend set you up, a girl friend be killed, be beaten by racist guards daily and told your father was dead when you were in prison you would be pretty damn angry when you got out as well.

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Old 03-20-2013, 02:20 PM   #32
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Angry Black Man in Prison plays on too many stereotypes and will not be seen as a compelling story white people want to watch. Cage redeeming himself after a rough childhood with friends who support him and provide a moral compass is better. Cage could be conflicted between his past and his future. He's still not a "nice" guy, in fact he is rather selfish, only using his powers for cash, but that makes it a bigger deal when Cage puts himself in danger for free. His friends see Cage as a hero, however much Cage denies it. The audience will root for that guy.

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Old 03-20-2013, 02:49 PM   #33
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Default Re: Luke Cage introduced in Avengers 2, Hulk blasted into space

Cage was innocent and I althought the fact he turned his back on a possible life of crime as a positve thing. Cage didn't wait for his uncle to get killed like Peter Parker or a life threatening injury like Tony Stark to turn his life around. Cage at worst was misguided when he was a kid in a gang. Even when Cage was in a gang he refused t use weapons.

Even though Cage is a hero for hire he isn't money grabbing greedy scumbag. Cage often turned down money or fees if someone really need his help.

The only reason people make a big deal out of the fact cage was in a gang as a kid is because he is black. Ben Grimm aka The Thing was in a gang as a kid and no one makes anywhere near a big deal out it as they do cage.

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Old 03-20-2013, 03:49 PM   #34
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Angry Black Man in Prison plays on too many stereotypes and will not be seen as a compelling story white people want to watch.
the Christopher Dorner case seemed to be pretty popular.

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Old 03-20-2013, 03:52 PM   #35
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Cage was innocent and I althought the fact he turned his back on a possible life of crime as a positve thing. Cage didn't wait for his uncle to get killed like Peter Parker or a life threatening injury like Tony Stark to turn his life around. Cage at worst was misguided when he was a kid in a gang. Even when Cage was in a gang he refused t use weapons.

Even though Cage is a hero for hire he isn't money grabbing greedy scumbag. Cage often turned down money or fees if someone really need his help.

The only reason people make a big deal out of the fact cage was in a gang as a kid is because he is black. Ben Grimm aka The Thing was in a gang as a kid and no one makes anywhere near a big deal out it as they do cage.
to be fair, Cage held a rival gang member so Stryker could stab him to death. and Cage did try to straighten out his life. but he never answered for past criminal activity. it's not like he reformed in prison (like Scott Lang). some might say that Stryker framing him was just Luke's past catching up with him. his experience taught him a valuable lesson. that's not to take anything away from his current heroism. still, he's always existed in the gray area of superheroics. he considered just using his powers as muscle, to start with. and he was charging money.

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Old 03-20-2013, 04:04 PM   #36
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Default Re: Luke Cage introduced in Avengers 2, Hulk blasted into space

Cage spent time in juvenile prison for his crimes which he served in full. Cage was completly innocent.

I've never read of Cage holding a gang member so Stryker could stab him because it was always written that Lucas commited petty crimes and low level crime in the comics unless there is some recent storyline retcon I haven't read.

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Old 03-20-2013, 04:05 PM   #37
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Cage spent time in juvenile prison for his crimes which he served in full. Cage was completly innocent.

I've never read of Cage holding a gang member so Stryker could stab him because it was always written that Lucas commited petty crimes and low level crime in the comics unless there is some recent storyline retcon I haven't read.
this was revealed in his 90s series; the one set in Chicago.

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Old 03-20-2013, 04:09 PM   #38
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Angry Black Man in Prison plays on too many stereotypes and will not be seen as a compelling story white people want to watch. Cage redeeming himself after a rough childhood with friends who support him and provide a moral compass is better. Cage could be conflicted between his past and his future. He's still not a "nice" guy, in fact he is rather selfish, only using his powers for cash, but that makes it a bigger deal when Cage puts himself in danger for free. His friends see Cage as a hero, however much Cage denies it. The audience will root for that guy.
I like the angle on Heroes for Hire, very nice. If the prison is interesting enough, and the Black Man is not stereotypically angry (seeting rage/playing it cool) then it becomes compelling for everything again, right?

It could be that I'm just attached to this Wrecking Crew idea.

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Old 03-20-2013, 04:13 PM   #39
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this was revealed in his 90s series; the one set in Chicago.
I haven't read that series in years. Do you know what issue thats in?

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Old 03-20-2013, 04:37 PM   #40
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the Christopher Dorner case seemed to be pretty popular.

These things are not the same

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Old 03-20-2013, 05:16 PM   #41
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I like the Wrecking Crew idea too but I think their comic origin is kinda lame. Lightning bolt that hits an enchanted piece of Asgardian metal while they are holding it? Lame.

I like The Wrecking Crew being experimented on the same way Cage is, making them his natural enemies. It also makes Cage seem less of a coincidental outlier and given his history, highly believable as a potential villain who got selfish, made friends with morally good folks, and is now a reluctant hero.

Pairing Cage with Iron Fist and maybe another, helps even the fight between Wrecking Crew and Cage, otherwise it would be too uneven and Cage taking them all out would be unbelievable as they all have the same origin and similar power levels.

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Old 03-20-2013, 05:47 PM   #42
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I haven't read that series in years. Do you know what issue thats in?
unfortunately no. if i find out, i will post it.

EDIT: this entry makes it seem like issue # 3 of that series.
http://www.marvunapp.com/Appendix/diamb1.htm


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Old 03-21-2013, 12:32 AM   #43
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I like the Wrecking Crew idea too but I think their comic origin is kinda lame. Lightning bolt that hits an enchanted piece of Asgardian metal while they are holding it? Lame.

I like The Wrecking Crew being experimented on the same way Cage is, making them his natural enemies. It also makes Cage seem less of a coincidental outlier and given his history, highly believable as a potential villain who got selfish, made friends with morally good folks, and is now a reluctant hero.

Pairing Cage with Iron Fist and maybe another, helps even the fight between Wrecking Crew and Cage, otherwise it would be too uneven and Cage taking them all out would be unbelievable as they all have the same origin and similar power levels.
I'm of the same mind on the Wrecking Crew, but I don't like the idea of him having to be mentored in goodness, so to speak. What makes a hero is their own morality, not adopting someone else's. Spider-Man wouldn't be what he is if he had listened to Uncle Ben, more importantly, he wouldn't be a reflection of us. Tragedy is the teacher of a hero, not morally good folks.

On the numbers, I think putting the hero against superior and unbeatable odds is a great way to build tension, and then find a creative way to deal with it. Outfoxing one's enemies is one of the favored ways to make that happen, something very plausible with the heroic streetsmart Cage and the common criminals (or booksmart in one case) that make up the Wrecking Crew. It's also possible that Cage has plain old more fight experience, that he's more dedicated to the fight, and, though potentially anti climactic, they could be separated in a sort of gauntlet as well. Plentious options.

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Old 03-21-2013, 11:48 AM   #44
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I'm with you completely here and on the Black Panther thread.

From a previous comment I made, I didn't want to write an origin story and then I went and did it anyway, so I am gonna stop here before I destroy what we made .

Actually, here's a question...How does Iron Fist fit? Or does he have to yet? Maybe this question needs to be answered in a different thread.

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Old 03-21-2013, 08:31 PM   #45
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Default Re: Luke Cage introduced in Avengers 2, Hulk blasted into space

They could do two separate films and then tie the two together in HFH movie. Now that I think about it, I think Luke could support one movie. Have one solo Cage movie, one solo Iron Fist movie and then a HFH franchise, with the two eventually joining the Avengers

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Old 04-05-2013, 02:01 AM   #46
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Fitting Luke Cage's (simple) comic origin into the Marvel movie universe by having the experiment that creates him be part of some already introduced tech/experiments (easiest to me , the Super Soldier Serum the Governments and terrorists continue to experiment with). Cage's past as a former gang member turned cop, who is then set up and sent to prison (possibly death row) and the prison is run by AIM or even Hydra to experiment on the inmates with their own super soldier serum would be the easiest way to go while having it fit perfectly into the Marvel movie universe and without over complicating things with lots of extras or over explaining that the original Hulk movie had.
And the question of why they would use criminals, because their are too afraid to use their own soldiers and kill them off but who would miss criminals? And what if they became as strong as Captain America? First, criminals are a scared and cowardly lot, easily corrupted. They could pay them off, get them to join. Or kill them, Cap wasn't made bullet proof. Him becoming bullet proof like the Hulk wouldn't be expected. the Hulk was an animally.

I'd also introduce Luke Cage and Iron Fist: Heroes for Hire as a 15 min short that Marvel said they planned to do before each Marvel film. No real intros or origins, just show a short story about them and demonstrating their powers. Could even recast them/alter their costumes when they actually have movies.
the 15 Min short would allow Marvel to toy around with what characters they want to introduce.
Maybe Deathlock would test well, maybe Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel would be a audience favorite. It would help fast track some into their own films/franchises.


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Old 04-05-2013, 04:55 AM   #47
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Default Re: Luke Cage introduced in Avengers 2, Hulk blasted into space

Extremis Luke Cage?

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Old 04-07-2013, 02:14 PM   #48
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Fitting Luke Cage's (simple) comic origin into the Marvel movie universe by having the experiment that creates him be part of some already introduced tech/experiments (easiest to me , the Super Soldier Serum the Governments and terrorists continue to experiment with). Cage's past as a former gang member turned cop, who is then set up and sent to prison (possibly death row) and the prison is run by AIM or even Hydra to experiment on the inmates with their own super soldier serum would be the easiest way to go while having it fit perfectly into the Marvel movie universe and without over complicating things with lots of extras or over explaining that the original Hulk movie had.
And the question of why they would use criminals, because their are too afraid to use their own soldiers and kill them off but who would miss criminals? And what if they became as strong as Captain America? First, criminals are a scared and cowardly lot, easily corrupted. They could pay them off, get them to join. Or kill them, Cap wasn't made bullet proof. Him becoming bullet proof like the Hulk wouldn't be expected. the Hulk was an animally.

I'd also introduce Luke Cage and Iron Fist: Heroes for Hire as a 15 min short that Marvel said they planned to do before each Marvel film. No real intros or origins, just show a short story about them and demonstrating their powers. Could even recast them/alter their costumes when they actually have movies.
the 15 Min short would allow Marvel to toy around with what characters they want to introduce.
Maybe Deathlock would test well, maybe Carol Danvers/Captain Marvel would be a audience favorite. It would help fast track some into their own films/franchises.

Cage's "simple" origin works for simple people.

Cage as a former cop could work if you want to spend 45 minutes setting up his whole story. That origin will be difficult to make interesting enough to keep people watching.

The law cares about prisoners (people). The prisoner's families might care about the person, I mean prisoner. The only groups who have ever experimented on prisoners were trying to test the limits of the human body before they died, they were not trying to make the people better.

Calling all criminals "scared and cowardly" is a generalization that you should stay away from. In your origin Cage is a cop, he does not fit your generalization and would not accept a bribe. You are also ignoring his motivations as a person. He was framed and therefore not subject to your beliefs about criminals.

The experimentation on criminals idea only works if you have an organization who owns the prison but has some motivations to create a super-powered group of henchmen. This organization needs to hand pick a crew from their prison population. If you were to put together a group to do evil deeds, would you pick a former cop?

Cage could have been a former gang member who had spent time in prison. Upon his release, he tries to go good but was in the "wrong place, wrong time" and was picked up for a crime he did not commit. He is wrongfully convicted based on his previous record as a gang member.

Cage goes to jail and rejoins his gang members who are currently serving sentences. Cage and his "wrecking crew" used to be badass and is recruited for a project by the prison owners. The experimentations (they are not really experiments when you know the outcome but whatever) give them super-powers and they stage a break out of prison to go do what AIM or whoever wants them to do.

Stuff happens and Cage breaks from the group turning away from crime and pitting him against the antagonist group Wrecking Crew. Cage will join with Iron Fist somewhere after splitting with the Crew. Wrecking Crew can be a recurring antagonist for the group while they also fight other villains as Heroes for Hire. Cage is not considered a "good" guy, he just isn't bad.

The possibility of an outcome like Hulk is exactly why you look for volunteers. Don't act like you wouldn't have volunteers. Suicide bombers are volunteers and I'm pretty sure they are aware the chances of walking away from their bombing is zero.


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Old 04-08-2013, 05:45 AM   #49
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Default Re: Luke Cage introduced in Avengers 2, Hulk blasted into space

Going the "government sponsored program that conducted experiments on inmates" route is an absolute non-starter.

They will probably have to construct a back story wherein Cage is falsely imprisoned in a prison run by a private organization, which of course, is secretly in AIM's pocket.

AIM, of course, is gleefully running experiments (variations of the super-soldier serum) on the inmates. A number of inmates are killed, and these are chalked up to prison violence, riots and the like. Cage is their only success.

So, AIM plans to 'study' him further to try to understand why only his enhancements 'took'. Cage, having other plans, escapes.

AIM's now hunting him down, but he can't go to the authorities since (a) he doesn't have any evidence (other than the fact that bullets don't seem to be able to take him down ) and (b) well, he IS a fugitive.

All this sets up a third act where he takes this particular wing of AIM down and clears his name, possibly with the help of a lawfirm suspiciously named Walters, Murdoch, Weying and Hawk.

I get that AIM are not among Cage's traditional foes, but I think the setup fits within the context of the MCU. What are the Extremis soldiers if not tech-based super soldiers?

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Old 04-08-2013, 12:36 PM   #50
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Default Re: Luke Cage introduced in Avengers 2, Hulk blasted into space

Quote:
Originally Posted by fixxxer View Post
I get that AIM are not among Cage's traditional foes, but I think the setup fits within the context of the MCU. What are the Extremis soldiers if not tech-based super soldiers?
Thats a pretty cool way to tie things together. Tying the Iron Man experiments with the Captain America experiments. (Like tying the arc reactor in Iron Man to the Cosmic Cube that originated in Thor and was brought to Earth in Captain America.) Extremis is another form of the Super Soldier program, maybe the next stage. Plus it would make AIM that much more dangerous in genius if their experiments were so much more advanced. And (like I thought about Cage fitting into the Super Soldier experiments) I think AIM fits as those running the experiment and creating Cage and being his arch foes.

And what about Luke's wife? Jessica Jones? How soon would she be brought in? I like Cage and Jessica being part of the Avengers and being married.

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