The SuperHeroHype Forums  

Go Back   The SuperHeroHype Forums > General Movies > Misc. Comics Films

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-15-2013, 02:52 AM   #1
PyroChamber
Chicka Chick-ahhhh
 
PyroChamber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 13,160
Default Should the archenemy be first?

When a superhero movie is being made do you think it's a good idea to go with the hero's main archenemy first, or start with a different villain and work your way up to the main one in a sequel?

With the Nolan trilogy, we started with Ra's al Ghul and Scarecrow first then went to the Joker in the second movie.

Iron Man: Iron Monger first, Whiplash and Justin Hammer second, with the third one now we're getting the Mandarin.

__________________
"I hate you, I hate you, I don't even know you and I hate your guts. I hope all the bad things in life happen to you, and nobody else but you."

Quote:
Sometimes, it's so easy, I'm ashamed of myself.

Last edited by PyroChamber; 03-15-2013 at 11:50 AM.
PyroChamber is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 10:58 AM   #2
MichaelChen
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Oct 2008
Posts: 283
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

I think it's pretty clear that you should wait. The Arch-Enemy should be an end-game boss who would ****stomp the hero if they met while the hero was still a noob.

MichaelChen is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 12:06 PM   #3
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

You should DEFINITELY wait. Besides Joker in a non-origin film(Batman '89), every archenemy that shows up in an origin film ends up being very underdeveloped and Hollywood has finally realized that mistake with Joker not appearing until TDK, Green Goblin appearing later in Webb's TAS-M series, Mandarin appearing in Iron Man 3.

Although, I will say that I was pleasantly surprised with how well I liked Red Skull in Captain America, but he wasn't a villain that needed to be developed much anyways, imo.

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 01:49 PM   #4
uniqueweasel
Don't Drink and Bake
 
uniqueweasel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Skynet
Posts: 1,138
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

Yeah I think it's a pretty good idea to keep the main villain until later, as above it gives room for better development, etc.

uniqueweasel is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 03:15 PM   #5
James
Built from Lego
 
James's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: New Zealand/Canada
Posts: 4,037
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

I'll say it's entirely dependent on the character, the hero's relationship with the villain, the origin, and the overall story you want to tell. Having a hard rule that the main villain should appear at one time or another is counter productive to creativity. Just because having the nemesis appear later in one series of films worked doesn't mean that's what's going to work in another.

James is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 03:21 PM   #6
ThePhantasm
The Shadow Knows
 
ThePhantasm's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: UK
Posts: 10,551
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

I say wait, if the hero has a great rogues gallery.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesConceptz View Post
Im done. Im leaving this website. I promise i will not be spiderman or attempt to be. I have a ral careerr to fulfill. Please don NOT tell anyone about this. I would appreciate if you all kept this a secret.
ThePhantasm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 05:06 PM   #7
ThePowerCosmic
You are hailing!
 
ThePowerCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: HYDRA
Posts: 17,789
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

If I was my younger self I would have said the archenemy should always be first since I was so used to seeing it in movies like Spider-Man, Daredevil, Fantastic Four, X-Men, and Batman.

These days, I'd say wait a movie or two before introducing the archenemy. Build him/her up.

__________________
2015: Avengers: Age of Ultron, Star Wars: Episode VII, Daredevil, Fantastic Four, Ant-Man
2016: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, Captain America 3, X-Men: Apocalypse, The Amazing Spider-Man 3, Warcraft


Hail HYDRA!

Thirsty? Get HYDRAted.
ThePowerCosmic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 05:08 PM   #8
ThePowerCosmic
You are hailing!
 
ThePowerCosmic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: HYDRA
Posts: 17,789
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anno_Domini View Post
You should DEFINITELY wait. Besides Joker in a non-origin film(Batman '89), every archenemy that shows up in an origin film ends up being very underdeveloped and Hollywood has finally realized that mistake with Joker not appearing until TDK, Green Goblin appearing later in Webb's TAS-M series, Mandarin appearing in Iron Man 3.

Although, I will say that I was pleasantly surprised with how well I liked Red Skull in Captain America, but he wasn't a villain that needed to be developed much anyways, imo.
Green Goblin and Magneto were underdeveloped to you?

__________________
2015: Avengers: Age of Ultron, Star Wars: Episode VII, Daredevil, Fantastic Four, Ant-Man
2016: Batman v Superman: Dawn of Justice, Captain America 3, X-Men: Apocalypse, The Amazing Spider-Man 3, Warcraft


Hail HYDRA!

Thirsty? Get HYDRAted.
ThePowerCosmic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 05:47 PM   #9
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,740
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PyroChamber View Post
When a superhero movie is being made do you think it's a good idea to go with the hero's main archenemy first, or start with a different villain and work your way up to the main one in a sequel?

With the Nolan trilogy, we started with Ra's al Ghul and Scarecrow first then went to the Joker in the second movie.

Iron Man: Iron Monger first, Whiplash and Justin Hammer second, with the third one now we're getting the Mandarin.
You know it really depends on the franchise. With some, I think it's better to set him up in the first movie, and to go with a "beginner" enemy (not to say they're weak, but you need room to escalate the conflict).

With others, they are so integral to the premise, that you need them in the first movie.

Thundercrack85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 06:38 PM   #10
Human Torch
Mandatory Fun
 
Human Torch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 7,183
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

It depends,I suppose.Look at Green Lantern.If they had led with Sinestro they might have been better off.Now Sinestro is the best villain set-up for a film we'll never see.

Human Torch is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 09:26 PM   #11
the last son
Side-Kick
 
the last son's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,324
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by James View Post
I'll say it's entirely dependent on the character, the hero's relationship with the villain, the origin, and the overall story you want to tell. Having a hard rule that the main villain should appear at one time or another is counter productive to creativity. Just because having the nemesis appear later in one series of films worked doesn't mean that's what's going to work in another.

Agree with this

the last son is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 09:56 PM   #12
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by ThePowerCosmic View Post
Green Goblin and Magneto were underdeveloped to you?
Very. But I felt at least Magneto had three films that developed him. And First Class, I feel, really did Erik/Magneto even more justice by building up Erik to the point where he becomes Magneto.

Green Goblin...it was just a bad move to use Spidey's greatest villain in the first movie. It makes sense in the bigger picture of building up this Goblin legacy where Harry Osborn ends up taking the serum as well, but I would scrap all of that to see GG appear after the first film while developing Norman Osborn beforehand.

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 09:59 PM   #13
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Human Torch View Post
It depends,I suppose.Look at Green Lantern.If they had led with Sinestro they might have been better off.Now Sinestro is the best villain set-up for a film we'll never see.
I really liked how they built up to Sinestro as there had to be a reason why Sinestro got his hands on a yellow ring, but too bad we'll never see Mark Strong's Sinestro again.

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 12:21 AM   #14
johnrain
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Location: Upstate NY
Posts: 284
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

Lex Luthor overused in the Superman franchise. And why use General Zod in Man of Steel? It was done in Super Man 2.

johnrain is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 12:25 AM   #15
Thundercrack85
Side-Kick
 
Thundercrack85's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Posts: 12,740
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by johnrain View Post
Lex Luthor overused in the Superman franchise. And why use General Zod in Man of Steel? It was done in Super Man 2.
Zod makes sense. He's one of the few living connections between Superman and Krypton.

Thundercrack85 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-16-2013, 12:54 PM   #16
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

Yah, Zod definitely makes the most sense. I'd rather see Superman taking on someone that has a connection with Krypton first and then deal with a threat coming from Metropolis in the sequel.

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 05:05 PM   #17
metaphysician
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 4,375
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

I don't know, I'm generally inclined to say the first threat should be local. Having Zod come first runs a strong risk of making it seem that Superman exists solely to protect us from his own mess, which is a bad idea.

metaphysician is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-19-2013, 05:49 PM   #18
Ultimatehero
Life is infinite
 
Ultimatehero's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 5,473
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by metaphysician View Post
I don't know, I'm generally inclined to say the first threat should be local. Having Zod come first runs a strong risk of making it seem that Superman exists solely to protect us from his own mess, which is a bad idea.
MOS 2:



MOS 3:





Doomsday to my knowledge is more of a weapon. Thus, it could be a weapon used by Brainiac. Also with Lex set up with the previous film more time can be given to Brainiac and one-upping Lex making him come off as even more of a dangerous and main dangerous foe. Basically something similar to what Kevin Smith did.

__________________
"If we are all united, we can take back our lives. While they stand divided, we can fight them and their laws. If we get up off our knees, we can show them that we are people. We can take back this "free" country! - Anti-Flag

Last edited by Ultimatehero; 03-19-2013 at 05:56 PM.
Ultimatehero is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-21-2013, 11:38 AM   #19
The Batman
The Dark Knight
 
The Batman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Gotham City
Posts: 20,011
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

Yes, it should. Most of the time, the only reason an archenemy debuts in a sequel is usually because its a rebooted version of a character (Ex: Nolan's Batman, Webb's Spider-Man, and now Snyder's Superman).

If you're doing a character for the first time, it should be understood that sequels aren't guaranteed, so the first film should represent the best of the character as much as possible. That's why most of these superhero big screen debuts have their archenemy upfront, and thats how it should be. "Green Lantern" was foolish not to have Sinestro as a villain from the start.

__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by hafizbat View Post
Welcome to the Batman v Superman forums, where people will take a perfectly reasonable comment you make and twist it into something completely different to make themselves feel better.
The Batman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-26-2013, 10:16 PM   #20
Anno_Domini
Banned User
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 17,997
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

Quote:
Originally Posted by metaphysician View Post
I don't know, I'm generally inclined to say the first threat should be local. Having Zod come first runs a strong risk of making it seem that Superman exists solely to protect us from his own mess, which is a bad idea.
Not really. The first film seems to really suggest how humans, mostly from the army(and maybe the government) will react to Superman and that idea could continue when using Lex Luthor next. I find that to be a good idea, imo.

Anno_Domini is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-27-2013, 04:31 PM   #21
kedrell
Porkchop Sandwiches!!!
 
kedrell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: GTFO!!!!
Posts: 16,825
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

I'll say it depends on the character. Thor for example definitely needs Loki there from the beginning. Spider-man however doesn't need Green Goblin right away.

__________________
My God, did that smell good!
kedrell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2013, 01:47 PM   #22
Justin
Side-Kick
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Posts: 261
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

If you are talking Spiderman or Batman, then they shouldn't be used in the first movie if the movie is an origins movie. As someone else said, Joker and Goblin should be an end game boss that would crush a developing Wayne/Parker if they met.

But if you are talking someone with a much lesser rogues gallery, who perhaps has the villain as an integral part of their origin story, in that case it's kinda the best thing to do. Look at Thor and Loki, what else would really start off Thor well besides Loki? You could still do the "final fight" in part 3, but sometimes they need to be in there from the beginning.

With Amazing Spiderman I like the fact they kept Osbornes name dropping and I hope he isn't the villain in 2, but they continue the name dropping and perhaps have him appear.

Foreshadowing the big bad guy is good. Throwing him in from the start, not so good.

Also re: Batman, I believe Joker would have appeared in 3 in some capacity had the actor not died.

Justin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2013, 02:08 PM   #23
the last son
Side-Kick
 
the last son's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 3,324
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

In the rebooted Batman I want to see two movies lead up to the joker. Then have the third with joker as the villain

the last son is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2013, 03:17 PM   #24
Blitzkrieg Bop
Crazy Casbah Jive
 
Blitzkrieg Bop's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Under there
Posts: 6,992
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

I hate the idea of "building up" characters once we get past this arbitrary origin stage. Batman's beginnings have been told in depth now, so it is time to move on from that. I'd love to see the next Joker right from the get-go. I don't believe that a movie superhero has to be built up to his/her arch nemesis for it to be believable that this "new" Batman could handle the Joker. He's Batman, fighting the Joker is just what he does. If you can't accept that, your problem.

The Green Lantern franchise is essentially dead. The Hulk has a better chance of getting a sequel at this point. Instead of some piece-o-crap with a great actor playing Sinestro to (at the minimum) a satisfactory level of villainy, we have a Sinestro who doesn't do much and was on the side of good in a piece-o-crap. This is what happens when you hold your ace. Warner Brothers knew back in the day that the Joker had to be in this new direction Batman movie. Then they followed it up with Penguin and Catwoman. Those were the most popular villains on the show and WB knew that's who the people wanted to see.

In Spider-Man's case, the Raimi and Webb movies are slammed together in the collective memory of the audience. That's why we're getting villains who weren't in the first three; Lizard, Rhino, Electro. I don't believe for a second that Norman Osbourne or Otto Octavius are absent because this Spider-Man is inexperienced. I believe that villain choice is often influenced by the financial matter. How can a studio convince an audience they're not going to see the same movie twice? Give them a different villain.

__________________
Apes--together--strong
Blitzkrieg Bop is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-31-2013, 04:01 PM   #25
Quasimod0
Bell-Ringer
 
Quasimod0's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Florida
Posts: 8,608
Default Re: Should the archenemy be first?

Also cap pretty much had to have the red skull in the first film since it was the only period piece cap film they had planned.

Quasimod0 is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 07:10 PM.

monitoring_string = "dee460792f24517621e3ca080805de7e"
Contact Us - Mobile - SuperHeroHype - ComingSoon.net - Shock Till You Drop - Lost Password - Clear Cookies - Archive - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Top - AdChoices


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SuperHeroHype.com is a property of CraveOnline Media, LLC, an Evolve Media, LLC company. 2014 All Rights Reserved.