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Old 03-19-2013, 08:53 AM   #701
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Okay... that's just plain old FRACKING awesome... the fact that they have three separate hetut zeraze is just that much sweeter... goodnight...

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Old 03-19-2013, 12:53 PM   #702
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Something I never thought I'd see...W'kabi cosplayed
That's pretty damn cool.

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Old 03-19-2013, 01:21 PM   #703
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Using superior tech to make moral statements is perceived as dumb/jerkish, whether it's done by Hudlins BP or the real life USA.
Superior tech should not imply moral supremacy of any kind but many see it as a sign of intelligence and an advanced society.

All I'm saying is that it would be nice if people looked at the possibility of indigenous cultures being a legitimate, chosen form of society. Not a sign of a backwards and incapable people.

Lets not pretend as if many people don't look down of Africans and indigenous cultures in general. Wakanda being capable of space age technology while choosing to preserve their primitive traditions and culture forces some to re-think why a culture would or should do such a thing.

It's not just about some egotistical black empowerment. It's about how we view so-called primitive cultures versus "advanced" cultures that are based on materialism and consumerism which may end up destroying much of nature or the entire planet.

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Old 03-19-2013, 04:28 PM   #704
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It's not unrealistic at all when you consider what happens during Avengers.

A blonde extraterrestrial demigod wearing a cape shooting lightning at giant intergalactic alien monsters with help from a giant green monster and a guy flying around in a robotic body suit shooting lasers.

But you think a land-locked county with advanced technology is where audiences will question the realism???

Are you guys serious???
You just posted a giant non-sequitur, playing off the fallacy that the presence of fantastic elements means a movie doesn't have to be internally consistent. Nothing you mentioned has any bearing on the credibility of a land-locked tiny isolationist nation being some kind of science fiction super-city, what with none of it having any bearing on Wakanda period.

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Old 03-19-2013, 04:50 PM   #705
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

The problem, MessiahDecoy, is that you can't force people to think, you have to coerce them to think. Just like Inception, if you don't introduce the thought in the perfect context, so that people think it's their idea, the thought is rejected, and voraciously attacked.

The reality is that indigenous cultures *are* incapable because of how they've been marginalized, disenfranchised and exploited. Let T'Challa deal with that head on instead of getting a free pass. That invites the audience to rethink the issue because they are, hopefully, into the character by the time that story point comes up.

In fact, not to go off topic, but Inception is just a great metaphor all around, especially as Nolan kinda made the jobs around the idea of a movie making team: Director(DiCaprio), Producer(JGL), Studio(Watanabe), Writer (Ellen Page), Actor(Tom Hardy), Production Desgin/SFX(The Chemist Guy).

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Old 03-19-2013, 05:03 PM   #706
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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You just posted a giant non-sequitur, playing off the fallacy that the presence of fantastic elements means a movie doesn't have to be internally consistent. Nothing you mentioned has any bearing on the credibility of a land-locked tiny isolationist nation being some kind of science fiction super-city, what with none of it having any bearing on Wakanda period.
What's inconsistent?

All you have to do is establish:

A) Wakandans are highly intelligent

B) They choose a tribal culture due to tradition, religion, and respect for nature.

C) They use their high intelligence to build a high tech defense system to preserve their primitive way of life.

Boom...Everything is established and consistent. It's not that hard unless you allow racist reasoning about Africa permeate the concept completely which would be a shame.

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Old 03-19-2013, 05:24 PM   #707
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What's inconsistent?

All you have to do is establish:

A) Wakandans are highly intelligent

B) They choose a tribal culture due to tradition, religion, and respect for nature.

C) They use their high intelligence to build a high tech defense system to preserve their primitive way of life.

Boom...Everything is established and consistent. It's not that hard unless you allow racist reasoning about Africa permeate the concept completely which would be a shame.
First, there are *boatloads* of problems with your "easy" solution, not the least being that you've basically created a whole society of either mary sues or arrogant utopian cliches, depending on how flawed you let them be. The idea of an advanced society deliberately reverting to a primitivist tribal life, and yet somehow maintaining their beyond-anyone-else technology? Is going to come off as incoherent, if not insane.

Second, none of that has anything to do with what I was saying at all. The credibility of a supertech African utopia is not effected at *all* by the presence of supersoldiers and aliens with hammers. Which is to say, it has to achieve credibility on its own merit, just like everyone else. The fact that aliens exist is not going to make an incoherent cultural and historical premise suddenly coherent; the presence of gamma mutates is not going to allow them to conjure money out of thin air.

You can totally invent a credible Wakanda concept for the movies. What you can't do is sell the audience on an incoherent or dubious Wakanda concept, and hope that waving your hand fast and saying "magic! fantasy! aliens!" will somehow fix your problem. Phlebotinum like vibranium and super-herbs can be useful tools for establishing Wakanda's premise, but they won't make it any more believable that they are a world superpower yet isolationist, or that they have science fiction technology yet spend all their time running around in loincloths with spears.

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Old 03-19-2013, 09:03 PM   #708
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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I like how Priest seemed to connect the portrayals of Wakanda. When you first see it in FF Wakanda is large, rich, and in charge with good tech. Over the years they made it so that T'Challa was the one who brought Wakanda most of its tech, and also brought them to the modern age while many disagreed with him. Hudlin was the one who introduced Wakanda as always being technologically ahead of the curve, so that's where that type of portrayal started. Now I hate Hudlin's run, but he explained it well by saying that they were technologically ahead of the curve because they had to be in order to keep from being conquered.

Priest came before Hudlin, but his portrayal seemed to make it as if Wakanda always had some good tech, but T'Challa was the one who elevated it even higher. Now the difference between this and the previous portrayal was that T'Challa's mind is the bigger factor here while in the past it seemed implied that it was what T'Challa learned in the West that gave him the ideas. I don't like that because it undercuts Wakanda, and it felt like there were undertones of the Great White Man and his technology saved those damned savages. With Priest it didn't undercut the West or Wakanda, and he didn't make it as if they were so far above everyone that they blew everyone out the water. They were badass, advanced, but they still were just a nation of 6 million people. They may have had a super strong army, but they weren't so tough that they could blow the Atlanteans away with one blow. I want that kind of balance that doesn't make Wakanda look bad or good at the expense of others.
E-Man,

I've got to disagree with you on Priest's portrayal of Wakanda's technological might, at least where it's military was concerned. I do recall an issue or two where he has these hidden space ships that he finally reveals, and to me that showed that Priest's Wakanda did have technology that could blow everyone out of the water. Though I don't think Priest mentioned Wakanda's technological superiority a lot in his stories. It was something he held in reserve, which is fitting with his take on T'Challa.

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Old 03-19-2013, 09:11 PM   #709
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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First, there are *boatloads* of problems with your "easy" solution, not the least being that you've basically created a whole society of either mary sues or arrogant utopian cliches, depending on how flawed you let them be. The idea of an advanced society deliberately reverting to a primitivist tribal life, and yet somehow maintaining their beyond-anyone-else technology? Is going to come off as incoherent, if not insane.

Second, none of that has anything to do with what I was saying at all. The credibility of a supertech African utopia is not effected at *all* by the presence of supersoldiers and aliens with hammers. Which is to say, it has to achieve credibility on its own merit, just like everyone else. The fact that aliens exist is not going to make an incoherent cultural and historical premise suddenly coherent; the presence of gamma mutates is not going to allow them to conjure money out of thin air.

You can totally invent a credible Wakanda concept for the movies. What you can't do is sell the audience on an incoherent or dubious Wakanda concept, and hope that waving your hand fast and saying "magic! fantasy! aliens!" will somehow fix your problem. Phlebotinum like vibranium and super-herbs can be useful tools for establishing Wakanda's premise, but they won't make it any more believable that they are a world superpower yet isolationist, or that they have science fiction technology yet spend all their time running around in loincloths with spears.
Once again I'll use the Amish as an example.

There are probably quite a few Amish people who could work for NASA if they chose that path but due to their sacred beliefs they refuse to even use a radio.

Now the Amish are not some CRAZY, SCI-FI concept that Stan Lee came up with. They're an actual community who currently live across the United States.

They are not stupid or insane. They just have a belief system that requires them to reject technology. What would be weird for them to create a high tech boundary to preserve their way of life? Especially if they were part of a highly fictional universe where Atlantis and the Savage Land are accepted realities.


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Old 03-19-2013, 10:06 PM   #710
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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They just have a belief system that requires them to reject technology. What would be weird for them to create a high tech boundary...
Come on, dude.

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Old 03-19-2013, 10:14 PM   #711
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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They just have a belief system that requires them to reject technology. What would be weird for them to create a high tech boundary to preserve their way of life? Especially if they were part of a highly fictional universe where Atlantis and the Savage Land are accepted realities.
First of all, in the MCU Atlantis and the Savage Land are not accepted realities.
Second, a society that uses the most advanced technology in order to preserve their fundamental belief to reject all technology is completely contradictory.

All Wakanda needs to be is an advanced African nation whose economy is based on its rare natural resource but culturally remains extremely skeptical of foreigners. It's that simple. You're basically just creating Dubai.

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Old 03-19-2013, 10:25 PM   #712
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

I don't think it's contradictory at all.

You're basically making an exception and building a defense system so you can live like you want for hundreds of years.

If that was your only way to preserve your way of life then it's common sense to make an exception.

It's either build the defense system or lose everything.

For example if your country is pacifist and your surrounded by war hungry aggressors you might have to get some nukes. Is it hypocritical? Yes, but you have to do what you have to do to protect your way of life.

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Old 03-19-2013, 10:35 PM   #713
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Some try to make it like 'oh they just don't like Black people being awesome' thing, but it's not.
Maybe it's not for you, but for some people that is indeed the issue.

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All Wakanda needs to be is an advanced African nation whose economy is based on its rare natural resource but culturally remains extremely skeptical of foreigners.
In other words, what it is in the comics.

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Old 03-19-2013, 10:59 PM   #714
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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First of all, in the MCU Atlantis and the Savage Land are not accepted realities..
You're right, aliens who space jump using portals and thunder gods are accepted realites.

But not a highly intelligent tribe who use Iron Man level technology to protect their ancient way of life.

lolz, I'd wonder if you guys are going to attack the Ant Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Dr Strange concepts too being that they're way more far fetched than some intelligent tribes high tech defense system.


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Old 03-19-2013, 11:08 PM   #715
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

I think people don't like ideas that attack imperialism or westernization.

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Old 03-20-2013, 12:11 AM   #716
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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E-Man,

I've got to disagree with you on Priest's portrayal of Wakanda's technological might, at least where it's military was concerned. I do recall an issue or two where he has these hidden space ships that he finally reveals, and to me that showed that Priest's Wakanda did have technology that could blow everyone out of the water. Though I don't think Priest mentioned Wakanda's technological superiority a lot in his stories. It was something he held in reserve, which is fitting with his take on T'Challa.
Oh yeah, there was definitely that side to them that was ahead of the curb on things, and I loved that. In Sturm Und Drang though he made sure to make it seem as if the country still couldn't just destroy the whole world because the country was small, the fact that there were more tribal dwellers than tech heavy city inhabitants, and other nations had big time stuff too. I liked how he didn't really make other people look bad to make Wakanda look good.

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Old 03-20-2013, 01:28 AM   #717
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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I think people don't like ideas that attack imperialism or westernization.
I'm not people.

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Old 03-20-2013, 02:21 AM   #718
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Maybe it's not for you, but for some people that is indeed the issue.
Yeah, but I don't think that's the operative opinion. I see a clear difference between "come on seriously, advanced African nation?" that I saw a few pages back and "making this connect with the audience is a challenge," which is what I'm hearing from Marvel Studios. Is there systemic racism involved? Yes, always, but people love awesome Black people, or else Nick Fury wouldn't be as revered as he is.

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You're right, aliens who space jump using portals and thunder gods are accepted realites.

But not a highly intelligent tribe who use Iron Man level technology to protect their ancient way of life.

lolz, I'd wonder if you guys are going to attack the Ant Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, and Dr Strange concepts too being that they're way more far fetched than some intelligent tribes high tech defense system.
Seriously? That's what you got from those reams of paragraphs from multiple folk describing cause and effect? "It's too farfetched?" You're not about this conversation, brother.

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Old 03-20-2013, 07:17 AM   #719
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Yeah, but I don't think that's the operative opinion. I see a clear difference between "come on seriously, advanced African nation?" that I saw a few pages back and "making this connect with the audience is a challenge," which is what I'm hearing from Marvel Studios. Is there systemic racism involved? Yes, always, but people love awesome Black people, or else Nick Fury wouldn't be as revered as he is.



Seriously? That's what you got from those reams of paragraphs from multiple folk describing cause and effect? "It's too farfetched?" You're not about this conversation, brother.
So how does cause and effect explain Ant Man, Guardians of the Galaxy or Dr. Strange.

The entire world Marvel Studios is creating is sci-fi/fantasy, bro. Wakanda's defense system is far more plausible than Ant Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, Thor and Dr Strange whether it's fully explained or not.

There's no reason a tribe couldn't achieve such a thing if they had a few people like Tony Stark. And not every intelligent society has to reject tribal or indigenous ways.

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Old 03-20-2013, 08:39 AM   #720
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Eventually Black Panther is going to be hanging with a talking raccoon with a laser gun and a shrinking man who talks to ants.

If they can't accept a tribe using a high tech defense system then they can't accept anything from phase 3. Marvel might as give up if they can't sell Wakanda's unorthodox approach to nature and technology.

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Old 03-20-2013, 08:57 AM   #721
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It just doesn't make any sense to say Wakanda is the most technologically advanced nation on earth, yet every citizen chooses to live in a grass hut, raise goats, and get their water from a well. It just rings false.

In order to do a Black Panther movie any justice, Wakanda needs to be depicted as a modern nation, complete with skyscrapers, modern infrastructure, perhaps a parliamentary style government where each tribe is represented and the Black Panther tribe is the ruling body, and a cultural society that remains true to the customs, traditions, and beliefs of their ancestors. If you keep them digging in the dirt, it can actually come off as extremely racist.

And for the record, I do question the way GotG is going to fit into the MCU. I just can't envision Chris Evans and Robert Downing, Jr. talking to a cartoon rodent without the entire audience rolling their eyes. Antman is going to hard to press on the audience based on his name alone. And Dr. Strange is still just a rumor so I'm not gonna bother commenting on that.

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Old 03-20-2013, 09:16 AM   #722
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It just doesn't make any sense to say Wakanda is the most technologically advanced nation on earth, yet every citizen chooses to live in a grass hut, raise goats, and get their water from a well. It just rings false.
That's not even the way it is in the comics, so I don't see why'd they do that in a movie.

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Old 03-20-2013, 09:44 AM   #723
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That's not even the way it is in the comics, so I don't see why'd they do that in a movie.
Because that's basically what MessiahDecoy is wanting.

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Old 03-20-2013, 10:08 AM   #724
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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So how does cause and effect explain Ant Man, Guardians of the Galaxy or Dr. Strange.

The entire world Marvel Studios is creating is sci-fi/fantasy, bro. Wakanda's defense system is far more plausible than Ant Man, Guardians of the Galaxy, Thor and Dr Strange whether it's fully explained or not.

There's no reason a tribe couldn't achieve such a thing if they had a few people like Tony Stark. And not every intelligent society has to reject tribal or indigenous ways.
Yes, there are many reasons they couldn't achieve such things. That's why they haven't already, and we can be sure they haven't because we know the history (the cause and effect which prevents Wakanda from existing), we know the American military, and can bring it up on Google maps ourselves. It's not plausible for a super power to operate on Earth and we not already know about it, that's why Thor underlined that we actually knew about Asgard, and why the GotG doesn't operate on Earth, because it's not plausible for it to.

The cool thing about these films is that once you start with a plausible premise, you can show how T'Challa transforms his country into this sci fi thing, because that's the fantasy, that a super person does super things. Not that we go into a parallel unrelated world like LOTR and Star Wars, but we go into a world pretty much just like ours, and watch it transform into something incredible. That's the genre, that's the silent contract. We get to be in on the cause and effect, and not just told 'oh, this happened, you should like it.'

And that's what a lot of it comes down to. How farfetched something is irrelevant, the question is, have you given the audience a reason to love it?

Do you feel me at all, or is all you see "too farfetched?"

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If they can't accept a tribe using a high tech defense system then they can't accept anything from phase 3. Marvel might as give up if they can't sell Wakanda's unorthodox approach to nature and technology.
They can accept it if you introduce it right. "This exists now on planet earth" is not introducing it right.

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Old 03-20-2013, 10:11 AM   #725
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Because that's basically what MessiahDecoy is wanting.

Well Wakanda has quality architecture and most likely has running water.

But their culture is very tribal.

To most people they will appear to be indigenous compared to most westernized areas inside and outside Africa.

There nothing wrong with a culture that both embraces indigenous culture while being incredibly technologically capable. THEY CHOOSE TO KEEP TRIBAL AND INDIGENOUS TRADITIONS ALIVE BECAUSE THEY ARE PROUD OF THEIR CULTURE BUT THEY'RE ALSO VERY VERY INTELLIGENT.

Why can't people wrap their heads around this concept? If people don't want to carbon copy the western way of life they must be stupid???

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