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Old 03-20-2013, 11:24 AM   #726
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Kenya has skycrapers and modern buildings in the capital Nairobi but you can also find tribal huts in the countryside villages.

Its not implausible.

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Old 03-20-2013, 11:26 AM   #727
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Yes, there are many reasons they couldn't achieve such things. That's why they haven't already, and we can be sure they haven't because we know the history (the cause and effect which prevents Wakanda from existing), we know the American military, and can bring it up on Google maps ourselves. It's not plausible for a super power to operate on Earth and we not already know about it, that's why Thor underlined that we actually knew about Asgard, and why the GotG doesn't operate on Earth, because it's not plausible for it to.
What does history or google maps have to do with Marvel Universe?

Wakanda is fictional. Why would it have to to be changed to acknowledge the westernization of Africa? The whole idea and concept of Wakanda was created to address and counter the realities of a westernized/colonized Africa.

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The cool thing about these films is that once you start with a plausible premise, you can show how T'Challa transforms his country into this sci fi thing, because that's the fantasy, that a super person does super things. Not that we go into a parallel unrelated world like LOTR and Star Wars, but we go into a world pretty much just like ours, and watch it transform into something incredible. That's the genre, that's the silent contract. We get to be in on the cause and effect, and not just told 'oh, this happened, you should like it.'
Sorry that defeats the whole purpose of Wakanda. Which is to show that Africans don't need non-Africans to understand how to live and progress. They keep everyone out because they don't want Western influence and are very confident of their way of life.


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And that's what a lot of it comes down to. How farfetched something is irrelevant, the question is, have you given the audience a reason to love it?

Do you feel me at all, or is all you see "too farfetched?"
Why wouldn't the audience "love" Wakanda the way it is presented in the comics? Utopian sci-fi concepts are not about hardened cynicism. They're about the hopes and dreams of what could be possible under ideal circumstances.


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They can accept it if you introduce it right. "This exists now on planet earth" is not introducing it right.
Wakanda is fine. In reality, most Americans can't name 7 African countries without looking at a map. The idea that there would be a small, isolated nation in Africa most people don't know about because global leaders won't acknowledge it's existence is well within reason.

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Old 03-20-2013, 11:37 AM   #728
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Well Wakanda has quality architecture and most likely has running water.

But their culture is very tribal.

To most people they will appear to be indigenous compared to most westernized areas inside and outside Africa.

There nothing wrong with a culture that both embraces indigenous culture while being incredibly technologically capable. THEY CHOOSE TO KEEP TRIBAL AND INDIGENOUS TRADITIONS ALIVE BECAUSE THEY ARE PROUD OF THEIR CULTURE BUT THEY'RE ALSO VERY VERY INTELLIGENT.

Why can't people wrap their heads around this concept? If people don't want to carbon copy the western way of life they must be stupid???
I want you to describe what exactly you mean by tribal culture. Because this seems to be where all the debate lies. Because what I think you're describing is basically the Masai, but surrounded by laser guns.

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Old 03-20-2013, 11:44 AM   #729
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Kenya has skycrapers and modern buildings in the capital Nairobi but you can also find tribal huts in the countryside villages.

Its not implausible.
Kenya is basically what I would picture Wakanda to be, just one-tenth the square miles. And actually, if you look at the map in the background in IronMan 2, Wakanda looks like it could actually border Kenya.

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Old 03-20-2013, 12:22 PM   #730
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

They usually show Wakanda sitting north of lake victoria where the Ugandan and Kenyan border is in the real world.

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Old 03-20-2013, 12:22 PM   #731
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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What does history or google maps have to do with Marvel Universe?

Wakanda is fictional. Why would it have to to be changed to acknowledge the westernization of Africa? The whole idea and concept of Wakanda was created to address and counter the realities of a westernized/colonized Africa.
Nothing to do with the 616 Marvel Universe, but everything to do with the Marvel Cinematic Universe, where things start out plausible in the real world, and the history of the MCU doesn't include Wakanda as a super power.

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Sorry that defeats the whole purpose of Wakanda. Which is to show that Africans don't need non-Africans to understand how to live and progress. They keep everyone out because they don't want Western influence and are very confident of their way of life.
The purpose of Wakanda according to who? Because the original Wakanda, back when BP was a beloved classic Avenger and not a polarizing racial figure, didn't fulfill that purpose. Part of modernizing these characters and bringing the to the big screen is streamlining them, and part of streamlining BP is getting rid of the power-creep retcons that Wakanda has had over the decades. It'd be different if there was some white country that had achieved success without lots of help and trade from non-white countries, but there isn't.

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Why wouldn't the audience "love" Wakanda the way it is presented in the comics? Utopian sci-fi concepts are not about hardened cynicism. They're about the hopes and dreams of what could be possible under ideal circumstances.
Why would they? Love is not a "why wouldn't?" thing, or else, you would love me, and this conversation would be entirely different.

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Wakanda is fine. In reality, most Americans can't name 7 African countries without looking at a map. The idea that there would be a small, isolated nation in Africa most people don't know about because global leaders won't acknowledge it's existence is well within reason.
No country in the world, especially the US, is going to ignore a potential threat. Wakanda, if it was known about, would be all over the news as a terror state and enemy ala Iran. It's not plausible for a super power to go unnoticed, neither is it plausible for it to remain uninvolved while the rest of the world kills the planet. The only way Wakanda could go unnoticed is if, like the other unnoticed African nations, it was not a super power.

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Old 03-20-2013, 12:33 PM   #732
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I want you to describe what exactly you mean by tribal culture. Because this seems to be where all the debate lies. Because what I think you're describing is basically the Masai, but surrounded by laser guns.
A Japanese understanding of technology but the entire society dressed in an ancient African tribal kingdom theme.

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Old 03-20-2013, 12:57 PM   #733
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Nothing to do with the 616 Marvel Universe, but everything to do with the Marvel Cinematic Universe, where things start out plausible in the real world, and the history of the MCU doesn't include Wakanda as a super power.



The purpose of Wakanda according to who? Because the original Wakanda, back when BP was a beloved classic Avenger and not a polarizing racial figure, didn't fulfill that purpose. Part of modernizing these characters and bringing the to the big screen is streamlining them, and part of streamlining BP is getting rid of the power-creep retcons that Wakanda has had over the decades. It'd be different if there was some white country that had achieved success without lots of help and trade from non-white countries, but there isn't.
It doesn't matter if no country achieved technological advancement without trade.

That's socio-economic theory that most movie goers won't be concerned with any more than the astrophysics from Thor.



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Why would they? Love is not a "why wouldn't?" thing, or else, you would love me, and this conversation would be entirely different.
No it's completely reasonable to counter "why would they love hi-tech Wakanda" with "why wouldn't they love hi-tech Wakanda".

Imagine we were debating Thor before it was released. Someone could ask who would the general audience love a black norse god or the concept and of Asgard. Then "why wouldn't they" would be the correct counter-argument because audiences did end up accepting, if not, loving those concepts.

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No country in the world, especially the US, is going to ignore a potential threat. Wakanda, if it was known about, would be all over the news as a terror state and enemy ala Iran. It's not plausible for a super power to go unnoticed, neither is it plausible for it to remain uninvolved while the rest of the world kills the planet. The only way Wakanda could go unnoticed is if, like the other unnoticed African nations, it was not a super power.
I didn't say ignore, I said refuse to acknowledge publicly.

Do you think the CIA publicizes every potential threat against the United States?

How many military coups did the CIA sponsor without public approval or awareness?

Wakanda is tiny compared to Iran or North Korea. Most tiny African countries aren't even a blip on the public's radar regardless of any potentially rogue elements.

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Old 03-20-2013, 01:39 PM   #734
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A Japanese understanding of technology but the entire society dressed in an ancient African tribal kingdom theme.
Ok. So basically, to you, the capital of Wakanda would look like this



populated by a people that look like this



If that's the case, I can get on board with that. What I thought you were talking about, and may still be, was basically the Aborigines except they possessed a more sophisticated version of the Israeli Iron Dome.

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Old 03-20-2013, 01:51 PM   #735
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Yeah I'm fine with that too except the architecture can't look too western and it should blend in well with the natural surrounding.

The customs and themes should be tribal and nature based from head to toe.

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Old 03-20-2013, 01:56 PM   #736
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Yeah I'm fine with that too except the architecture can't look too western and it should blend in well with the natural surrounding.

The customs and themes should be tribal and nature based from head to toe.
Ok, I think me and you are on the same page then. Probably always were, we just weren't communicating it properly.

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Old 03-20-2013, 04:41 PM   #737
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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No it's completely reasonable to counter "why would they love hi-tech Wakanda" with "why wouldn't they love hi-tech Wakanda".

Imagine we were debating Thor before it was released. Someone could ask who would the general audience love a black norse god or the concept and of Asgard. Then "why wouldn't they" would be the correct counter-argument because audiences did end up accepting, if not, loving those concepts.
That's so crazy to me that you see it as this random thing "they ended up accepting" as though movie was not carefully crafted to inspire them to care about Asgard, and ensure that nothing would distract or detract from that, even if it meant depowering Asgard and conflicting with 616.

The truth is the opening scene from Thor made us care about Asgard, and we *did* talk about doing it that way before Thor came out, we just never imagined they'd be able to do it in 2 and a half minutes, and I would never have wanted to see Thor depowered so long to balance the story as a result of rushing that part, but they did, and had enough jokes that it worked out, in part because they demoted Asgard to a high tech alien planet, another thing I wouldn't have done, much like you don't want Wakanda demoted. But it didn't make Asgard any less great or less loved, even though it "missed the whole point of Asgard" as though the point of Asgard was ever to do anything but make Thor awesome. That's what I learned from Thor about storytelling. Perhaps you would have thought we were overthinking it, and lambasted us for not saying "why wouldn't they like Asgard, they liked flying suits of armor, and that's impossible too!"

People who neglect cause and effect in storytelling make Green Lanterns and Fantastic Fours (and worse) because when it's time to craft a story and make changes from the cannon in order to get people into the film, they say "Why wouldn't they love it?" And they never get an answer, just critical and commercial failure.

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A Japanese understanding of technology but the entire society dressed in an ancient African tribal kingdom theme.
For the record, bringing it out of sci fi addresses virtually all of the problems I'm referring to.

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Old 03-20-2013, 06:17 PM   #738
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First of all, in the MCU Atlantis and the Savage Land are not accepted realities.
Second, a society that uses the most advanced technology in order to preserve their fundamental belief to reject all technology is completely contradictory.

All Wakanda needs to be is an advanced African nation whose economy is based on its rare natural resource but culturally remains extremely skeptical of foreigners. It's that simple. You're basically just creating Dubai.
And like Dubai, or the middle east in general, you'd have fodder for dramatic conflict in the form of the struggle between the modernists who want to embrace the larger world to a greater or lesser extent, and the traditionalists who want to preserve Wakanda from all that evil foreign influence. You can totally have people who *want* to turn Wakanda into some kind of primitivist tribal "utopia", complete with hypocritical high tech border defenses. Its just, those people should really be the bad guys.

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Old 03-20-2013, 06:30 PM   #739
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Basically, its not enough for the audience to buy that a country of isolationist primitives with laser guns could exist. The audience may well believe its *possible*. . . but if they have zero *sympathy* for said country, you're stuck with them being antagonists at best. And a high tech nation deliberately living a primitive, unpleasant tribal life, except for the powers that be that enforce said existence via high tech weaponry ( and that is *exactly* what it would come off as )? Is the kind of thing that T'Challa would have to be actively ending, in order for him to come off as even vaguely heroic.

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Old 03-20-2013, 06:57 PM   #740
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Yes, Wakanda is a literal hypocritical quandry due to them living around other nations in squalor while they're cutting edge, but then again this is Marvel where not even the good guys are 100% good, as you know. They got their faults. Massive ones. T'Challa is a hero, but like other Marvel heroes he tends to be kind of a jerk at times.

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Old 03-20-2013, 07:36 PM   #741
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Basically, its not enough for the audience to buy that a country of isolationist primitives with laser guns could exist. The audience may well believe its *possible*. . . but if they have zero *sympathy* for said country, you're stuck with them being antagonists at best. And a high tech nation deliberately living a primitive, unpleasant tribal life, except for the powers that be that enforce said existence via high tech weaponry ( and that is *exactly* what it would come off as )? Is the kind of thing that T'Challa would have to be actively ending, in order for him to come off as even vaguely heroic.
Yeah the nature respecting Wakandans who want to protect their sovereign right to self-determination from Western greed should be the evil bad guys.

Because history has shown that imperialism has truly served Africa's best interest, right? Especially the constant civil war due to western weapons and corruption.

Maybe Black Panther can defeat the "evil" tribal leaders and install an American puppet government. The Wakandan people can tear down their Black Panther statues and replace them with McDonalds and Wal-Mart.

Yay, imperialism and the destruction of native cultures!

WE can even rewrite the way T'Challa's father died. He could die trying to convert his proud tribe into Christians and mine workers for American corporations.

This stuff writes itself. Somebody call Marvel/Disney!!!

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Old 03-20-2013, 07:40 PM   #742
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Yes, Wakanda is a literal hypocritical quandry due to them living around other nations in squalor while they're cutting edge, but then again this is Marvel where not even the good guys are 100% good, as you know. They got their faults. Massive ones. T'Challa is a hero, but like other Marvel heroes he tends to be kind of a jerk at times.
If Black Panther expanded his territory and beliefs beyond his national borders then he would be no better than those who have tried to invade Wakanda countless times out of greed and a thirst for power.

What would Black Panther call such a mission to civilize neighboring nations?

How about manifest destiny?

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Old 03-20-2013, 07:52 PM   #743
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Yes, Wakanda is a literal hypocritical quandry due to them living around other nations in squalor while they're cutting edge, but then again this is Marvel where not even the good guys are 100% good, as you know. They got their faults. Massive ones. T'Challa is a hero, but like other Marvel heroes he tends to be kind of a jerk at times.
Stark, Richards and Pym ain't out there making the world into a Utopia. Neither are Supes and Bats, to expand it beyond just marvel. The burden of "saving the entire world" doesn't lie at the feet of BP anymore than it does those other fictional superhero characters.

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Old 03-20-2013, 07:57 PM   #744
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Nothing to do with the 616 Marvel Universe, but everything to do with the Marvel Cinematic Universe, where things start out plausible in the real world, and the history of the MCU doesn't include Wakanda as a super power.
The history of the MCU is whatever they decide it is. Why assume we know everything already? Stark didn't know about SHIELD in the first Iron Man movie, but it already existed. At the end of that movie Fury says something to Stark along the lines of "You think youre the only superhero out there?"

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Old 03-20-2013, 09:00 PM   #745
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Stark, Richards and Pym ain't out there making the world into a Utopia. Neither are Supes and Bats, to expand it beyond just marvel. The burden of "saving the entire world" doesn't lie at the feet of BP anymore than it does those other fictional superhero characters.
If you notice it's always genius super villains trying to turn the world into their vision of utopia.

and the lone hero has to stop their master plan.

Everyone who's done evil on a wide scale thought they were doing a greater good.

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Old 03-20-2013, 10:16 PM   #746
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

Pondering this question I looked at the countries and Kingdoms that resembles Wakanda. The one I kept coming to was the Vatican. We have a secretive religious and political leader, secretive base of operations, people dressed in traditional clothing, modern yet keeping a eye on tradition.
Based on that I would have the populace of Wakanda dress like normal people in the 21st century. The only ones who wear traditional dress are those who hold titles in the government/religion...and then they would be modern takes on the clothing. T'Challa wouldnt run around in his Black Panther garb all the time. I imagine he would wear something similar to what James Earl Jones wore in Coming To America but instead of a lion head it would be a black panther head.

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Old 03-20-2013, 11:09 PM   #747
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The history of the MCU is whatever they decide it is. Why assume we know everything already? Stark didn't know about SHIELD in the first Iron Man movie, but it already existed. At the end of that movie Fury says something to Stark along the lines of "You think youre the only superhero out there?"
Not really. When you make the world look just like our world, you have created the expectation that it is just like our world except for the changes you show happen. If you break that unspoken agreement, it's like trying to retcon real life. They can't say "well, everyone on MCU Earth has two hearts," because that breaks the illusion, the contract, the premise. That's why, as far as we've seen, the MCU is like our world, and notably unlike 616 whenever that conflicts with Earth's actual history, and that's why we can expect them to continue to make that decision.

Are there secrets? Absolutely, Wakanda is highlighted at the end of Iron Man 2, but none of that gives the MCU the licence or motivation to throw audience expectations of the world they've created out the window.

Show, don't tell. That's what I'm saying.

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Basically, its not enough for the audience to buy that a country of isolationist primitives with laser guns could exist. The audience may well believe its *possible*. . . but if they have zero *sympathy* for said country, you're stuck with them being antagonists at best. And a high tech nation deliberately living a primitive, unpleasant tribal life, except for the powers that be that enforce said existence via high tech weaponry ( and that is *exactly* what it would come off as )? Is the kind of thing that T'Challa would have to be actively ending, in order for him to come off as even vaguely heroic.
Speak that word, brotha!

I think a lot of the great stories come from T'Challa trying to balance his new ideas against the old ways. That's a story that resonates with everyone,in every society, and is a big part of BP's original mythos. T'Challa's conflict with Wakanda's old ways, and the problems he brings to their beliefs with all his tech, typified by Erik Killmonger, makes for a good story, and one of his greatest, if only for being one of the first comic book story arcs ever. I think calling back to that would be a great start, what with Killmonger being the closest he has to an arch enemy, to set up for that conflict in #2 after dealing with Klaw and some mercs and maybe M'Baka in #1. After that, there'd be a few different ways you could do things...

A thought on Priest's tech level: Did Priest make Wakanda a product of T'Challa or vice versa? Because by that time, T'Challa had been active long enough to have designed and invented Wakanda's military machine, satellites included, all by himself.

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Old 03-20-2013, 11:27 PM   #748
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

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Pondering this question I looked at the countries and Kingdoms that resembles Wakanda. The one I kept coming to was the Vatican. We have a secretive religious and political leader, secretive base of operations, people dressed in traditional clothing, modern yet keeping a eye on tradition.
Based on that I would have the populace of Wakanda dress like normal people in the 21st century. The only ones who wear traditional dress are those who hold titles in the government/religion...and then they would be modern takes on the clothing. T'Challa wouldnt run around in his Black Panther garb all the time. I imagine he would wear something similar to what James Earl Jones wore in Coming To America but instead of a lion head it would be a black panther head.
Yo... Coming to America is a low key Black Panther story. And that is an awesome visual. I think the costumers on a Black Panther film could have a veritable field day, especially if you get some with a good eye and a love of black culture. The Panther theme can work in a few different ways, with T'Chaka sporting the Panther skin outfit over the shoulder, and the go to town on the idea of a black robe with gold trim. And the Wakandan people in a myriad mix of Kente Dashikis, canvas tunics and kufis, and then you see the guy carrying a laptop - nay, tablet - that you've never seen before. Epic. This Japan comparison really works... in fact, I could actually see "The Japan of Africa" being a bit of dialogue.

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Old 03-21-2013, 12:41 AM   #749
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Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

I wrote this in another thread but this is a little plot of what I thought for a Black Panther film

Black Panther - Set in a mix of Wakanda and New York. Origins of Black Panther are explored in depth. Explains Wakanda and it's lore. BP faces Ape-Man. In the mix BP goes to New York and breaks into Tony Stark's lab and plants a virus in his system. He then makes himself known so Iron Man can come after him in Wakanda. There they fight and BP activates the virus rendering Tony's suit useless. Having defeated Iron Man he offers BP a shot on the team after realizing BP is not a villain. Leads in to Avengers 3.

What do you guys think?

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Old 03-21-2013, 05:26 AM   #750
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Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: United Kingdom
Posts: 25,131
Default Re: EVERYTHING Black Panther - Part 2

There is internal civil wars and plots to take over wakanda in the comics. Man-Ape is a wakandan villain trying to take the country for himself.

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