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Old 03-20-2013, 06:28 PM   #76
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 2

He doesn't have to be moping to show that he feels out of place in a different time. It's like the deleted scene in The Avengers-- he's walking around this strange new world that's clearly not to his liking, but he pushes on through it and tries to adapt, because he's Cap and he's not gonna let these obstacles keep him down. That doesn't mean we can't see the struggles he's going through and feel bad for him anyway.

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Old 03-20-2013, 07:21 PM   #77
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But does it advance the story? If not, don't do it. There plenty of other more important stuff to spend time on.

Thinking stuff but not acting on it doesn't work on film very well. You don't get thought bubbles on film. Besides, the audience already knows Cap is out of place. There really is no point in spending more time on it. It was mentioned at the end of the first film and eluded to in the Avengers. You don't need to bash the audience over the head with it.

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Old 03-20-2013, 08:36 PM   #78
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I'd be very surprised if it didn't advance the story. Part of Avengers was Cap finding his place in modern times. This can be expanded on in this movie. Bringing Bucky back into the fray and having just barely touched on Cap's world being shaken, this can bring things to the core of Cap.

CA:TFA was a fun, Raiders-like pulpy adventure film played unironically, without the cynicism that comes in with many modern adaptations (like GL frequently making fun of its comic book roots in fear of being written off as silly by the modern audience). The Avengers touched on this in further detail, calling for a return to the "old-fashioned" form, sort of celebrating classic superheroes.

This could be a movie with actual conflict between the two worlds: Cap is from a time when everything was black-and-white. Allies = Good, Nazis/Hydra = Evil. The Avengers did fairly little to change that mindset for Cap. He even mercilessly threw a brainwashed SHIELD agent off the Helicarrier. Now, when his brainwashed best friend comes back from the traditional past he misses so dearly, he finally really encounters a grey area. One where he can sympathize with his opponent, even hoping to reform him. If the Russo Bros are interested in diggin into that idea, I reckon this is the best opportunity for it.

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Old 03-20-2013, 09:09 PM   #79
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 2

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He even mercilessly threw a brainwashed SHIELD agent off the Helicarrier.
That guy wasn't brainwashed or a SHIELD agent, just one of several mercs with a grudge against SHIELD.

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Old 03-20-2013, 09:11 PM   #80
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Ah yeah, then disregard that part.

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Old 03-20-2013, 09:35 PM   #81
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What part of Avengers was Cap finding his way? The part they cut? Maybe the reason they cut that part is because it added nothing to the plot? The only reference to Cap not understanding something from the modern world is when they made a joke about it.

In fact, there was very little character development for anyone, except maybe Banner/Hulk, in the Avengers and it still ended up being two and a half hours.

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Old 03-20-2013, 09:58 PM   #82
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That is so very not true, but now is not the time nor the place.

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Old 03-20-2013, 10:15 PM   #83
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 2

Cap feeling out of touch, trying to adjust and forge new connections and learning to find his place IS the plot. That's seriously a huge part of the character mythos.

You wouldn't make a Spider-Man movie where power and responsibility aren't mentioned, would you?

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Old 03-20-2013, 10:49 PM   #84
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 2

Why keep going on about advancing the plot? We don't even know what the plot is, but we do know that adapting to modern times will be a part of it. That's the one thing that is a sure thing about this film.

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Old 03-20-2013, 10:53 PM   #85
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It could be something as simple as him going into his corner drugstore for a pop and and the cashier getting rude with him ,"That'll be 3.50 pal". "Oh, where I come from they were only a nickel." "Yeah, sounds great, 3.50 or get out" Pays the man while giving a classic Chris Evans stare down. "Where I come from we also had manners."

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Old 03-20-2013, 10:59 PM   #86
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Chris Evans really does have a great stare-down, haha

Acts with his eyes very well in general, actually.

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Old 03-20-2013, 11:03 PM   #87
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Thats how you know you he's thinking about his position in this new world without coming off as whining (as some other poster put it) A simple stare from Chris and you know what he's got on his mind. At least if you know the character well enough. He really is a perfect Cap.

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Old 03-21-2013, 07:54 AM   #88
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 2

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But does it advance the story? If not, don't do it. There plenty of other more important stuff to spend time on.

Thinking stuff but not acting on it doesn't work on film very well. You don't get thought bubbles on film. Besides, the audience already knows Cap is out of place. There really is no point in spending more time on it. It was mentioned at the end of the first film and eluded to in the Avengers. You don't need to bash the audience over the head with it.

Unlike you, most people in movie audiences actually care about getting emotionally invested with the main characters. They're not in it to just ride along from Plot Point A to Plot Point B. Plot is meaningless if nobody gives a damn about your characters.

The Man Out of Time is a trope that's absolutely relevant to CATWS. Cap is not only haunted by the unseen ghosts of everyone and everything that has long since died and gone away from his world, but by very real and tangible people, things and events from his past....which is still, to him, his present.

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Old 03-21-2013, 07:57 AM   #89
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 2

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Unlike you, most people in movie audiences actually care about getting emotionally invested with the main characters. They're not in it to just ride along from Plot Point A to Plot Point B. Plot is meaningless if nobody gives a damn about your characters.

The Man Out of Time is a trope that's absolutely relevant to CATWS. Cap is not only haunted by the unseen ghosts of everyone and everything that has long since died and gone away from his world, but by very real and tangible people, things and events from his past....which is still, to him, his present.
^this

Winter Soldier will be a personification of that internal conflict. We're absolutely going to see him struggle to deal with modern times.

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Old 03-21-2013, 09:16 AM   #90
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 2

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Thats how you know you he's thinking about his position in this new world without coming off as whining (as some other poster put it) A simple stare from Chris and you know what he's got on his mind. At least if you know the character well enough. He really is a perfect Cap.

People seem to forget (or not know) that in the comics Steve Rogers was one angry man for a long time after he emerged from the ice. He had nightmares, he brooded, he longed for everything he had lost and was unsure of his place in society. But none of that ever stopped him from doing what he had to do. All that angst made Steve a very intense and human character, instead of the bland Boy Scout he's often accused of being.

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Old 03-21-2013, 09:57 AM   #91
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 2

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People seem to forget (or not know) that in the comics Steve Rogers was one angry man for a long time after he emerged from the ice. He had nightmares, he brooded, he longed for everything he had lost and was unsure of his place in society. But none of that ever stopped him from doing what he had to do. All that angst made Steve a very intense and human character, instead of the bland Boy Scout he's often accused of being.
Well, depends on which story arc you read.

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Old 03-21-2013, 12:37 PM   #92
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Unlike you, most people in movie audiences actually care about getting emotionally invested with the main characters. They're not in it to just ride along from Plot Point A to Plot Point B.

First, Sam, you need to speak for yourself and not for everyone else. Cite a poll or something, don't just run off and say what everyone thinks. You don't know what the audience is thinking.

Second, you can have Cap feeling out of place. What is boring is having Cap go to the corner store for the sake of going to the corner store. Unless it does something to advance the plot, it shouldn't be included because it's boring. Too many scenes that don't work for the plot really drags on a film. Besides, I don't think there will be enough time to focus on Cap struggling when the film needs to introduce Falcon, VanCamp's character, several baddies and the actual plot. Rehashing something the audience should know is boring.

I'm not saying there won't be something that shows Cap struggling, what I am saying is that it won't be shoved in the audience's face the way I think some of you have suggested. The corner store could work if in the store Widow or Fury or someone shows up and initiates conversation leading into the plot. The corner store or whatever needs to work toward something otherwise it could be cut and the audience wouldn't miss anything.

A corner store scene where he just has an issue can add depth to Cap's character, sure, but I think this is stuff the films (CA:TFA and Avengers) have already touched on and going over it again is just boring. The audience was already shown Cap is confused and wondering where he is at the end of the Cap film. During Avengers, Cap and Fury have the bet for $10 and the flying monkeys reference. We also have the Stephen Hawking/smart guy thing with Coulson. The audience should be aware Cap is out of place by now. Spending more time focusing on just that will be boring and slow the progression on the film.

How many films do you want that focuses on Cap being out of place? Is he always going to be amazed by a microwave or a cellphone or a television? Eventually he will need to get over it.

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Old 03-21-2013, 12:48 PM   #93
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 2

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First, Sam, you need to speak for yourself and not for everyone else. Cite a poll or something, don't just run off and say what everyone thinks. You don't know what the audience is thinking.

Second, you can have Cap feeling out of place. What is boring is having Cap go to the corner store for the sake of going to the corner store. Unless it does something to advance the plot, it shouldn't be included because it's boring. Too many scenes that don't work for the plot really drags on a film. Besides, I don't think there will be enough time to focus on Cap struggling when the film needs to introduce Falcon, VanCamp's character, several baddies and the actual plot. Rehashing something the audience should know is boring.

I'm not saying there won't be something that shows Cap struggling, what I am saying is that it won't be shoved in the audience's face the way I think some of you have suggested. The corner store could work if in the store Widow or Fury or someone shows up and initiates conversation leading into the plot. The corner store or whatever needs to work toward something otherwise it could be cut and the audience wouldn't miss anything.

A corner store scene where he just has an issue can add depth to Cap's character, sure, but I think this is stuff the films (CA:TFA and Avengers) have already touched on and going over it again is just boring. The audience was already shown Cap is confused and wondering where he is at the end of the Cap film. During Avengers, Cap and Fury have the bet for $10 and the flying monkeys reference. We also have the Stephen Hawking/smart guy thing with Coulson. The audience should be aware Cap is out of place by now. Spending more time focusing on just that will be boring and slow the progression on the film.

How many films do you want that focuses on Cap being out of place? Is he always going to be amazed by a microwave or a cellphone or a television? Eventually he will need to get over it.
We need at least one film to focus on it. So far we haven't had any. Avengers didn't have time to focus on it and blew by it with quick gags. That made sense because of the urgency of the film and the fact that it only took place over 2 days at most, probably less. Steve needs longer than 2 days to adjust.

I personally hope they do a large amount of flash backs, similar to Highlander, and start filling in the 3 year expanse of the first movie, especially his roughly 2 years at war. I don't think we'll see that many, but hopefully we see some to compare and contrast with present day.

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Old 03-21-2013, 10:11 PM   #94
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 2

This was Tweeted earlier tonight:
Max Hernandez @maxitois4real 5m

So it's a much bigger role in a much darker Cap Story. Lots of twists and turns. And lots secrets about the MCU revealed!

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Old 03-21-2013, 10:19 PM   #95
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 2

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How many films do you want that focuses on Cap being out of place? Is he always going to be amazed by a microwave or a cellphone or a television? Eventually he will need to get over it.
How about at least ONE?

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Old 03-21-2013, 10:29 PM   #96
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 2

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Is he always going to be amazed by a microwave or a cellphone or a television?
Yes, because that's exactly what everyone is asking for. Personally I'm hoping for a scene where he learns he doesn't have to poop outdoors anymore.

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How about at least ONE?
Exactly. Thank you.

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Old 03-21-2013, 10:52 PM   #97
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 2

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First, Sam, you need to speak for yourself and not for everyone else. Cite a poll or something, don't just run off and say what everyone thinks. You don't know what the audience is thinking.

Second, you can have Cap feeling out of place. What is boring is having Cap go to the corner store for the sake of going to the corner store. Unless it does something to advance the plot, it shouldn't be included because it's boring. Too many scenes that don't work for the plot really drags on a film. Besides, I don't think there will be enough time to focus on Cap struggling when the film needs to introduce Falcon, VanCamp's character, several baddies and the actual plot. Rehashing something the audience should know is boring.

I'm not saying there won't be something that shows Cap struggling, what I am saying is that it won't be shoved in the audience's face the way I think some of you have suggested. The corner store could work if in the store Widow or Fury or someone shows up and initiates conversation leading into the plot. The corner store or whatever needs to work toward something otherwise it could be cut and the audience wouldn't miss anything.

A corner store scene where he just has an issue can add depth to Cap's character, sure, but I think this is stuff the films (CA:TFA and Avengers) have already touched on and going over it again is just boring. The audience was already shown Cap is confused and wondering where he is at the end of the Cap film. During Avengers, Cap and Fury have the bet for $10 and the flying monkeys reference. We also have the Stephen Hawking/smart guy thing with Coulson. The audience should be aware Cap is out of place by now. Spending more time focusing on just that will be boring and slow the progression on the film.

How many films do you want that focuses on Cap being out of place? Is he always going to be amazed by a microwave or a cellphone or a television? Eventually he will need to get over it.
You need to learn a lot about story structure. Story evolves from character as well as plot. Again, if people aren't invested in your characters, they don't care about your plot. Watching a stranger die on film is meaningless. Watching someone you know and care about, even if you only just "met" them a few minutes ago, die on film has an entirely different and much more potent impact. Similarly, people are going to care a lot more about Cap if they feel immersed in the role and feel the same disconnect in time and place that Steve does.

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Yes, because that's exactly what everyone is asking for. Personally I'm hoping for a scene where he learns he doesn't have to poop outdoors anymore.


....So, I guess what you're saying is that....you guys *don't* poop outdoors, then....? Ah, crap, I knew it....I'm the only one who still does...

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Old 03-21-2013, 11:01 PM   #98
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Default Re: Captain America 2: News and Speculation - Part 2

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This was Tweeted earlier tonight:
Max Hernandez @maxitois4real 5m

So it's a much bigger role in a much darker Cap Story. Lots of twists and turns. And lots secrets about the MCU revealed!
It's funny how people were expecting a comedic movie based only on the director choices.

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Old 03-21-2013, 11:58 PM   #99
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It's funny how people were expecting a comedic movie based only on the director choices.
I certainly never did. Look at the other Phase 2 films, they're all adding a more serious tone to them, figured the Cap sequel would too.

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Old 03-22-2013, 01:24 AM   #100
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I certainly never did. Look at the other Phase 2 films, they're all adding a more serious tone to them, figured the Cap sequel would too.
There was an interview once where one of the Russo implied that Bucky would be a wisecracking villain, and that put me on edge. Anthony Mackie also described it as fun.

It's good to hear that CATWS isn't going the lighthearted route.

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